With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion.

–Steven Weinberg


Reposted from http://whyevolutionistrue./


No conflict between science and religion, you say? Have a look at this article from the Minneapolist StarTribune. Thirteen-year old Daniel Hauser, whose parents are Catholics but adhere to the healing practices of “the Nemenhah religious group” (this appears to be a Native American religion that believes in spiritual and herbal healing) decided that he didn’t want treatment for his Hodgkin’s lymphoma. Instead, he wants herbal treatments, and his parents are supporting him. With chemotherapy, the cure rate is very high; doctors say that without it his survival probability is 5%.

The Hausers are in court:

Colleen and Anthony Hauser are in a legal battle with Brown County, where authorities are accusing the parents of child neglect and endangerment. After Daniel stopped chemotherapy after a single treatment, opting instead for “alternative medicines,” child protection workers went to court requesting custody.

Doctors had recommended six chemo treatments, followed by radiation. Dr. Bruce Bostrom, a pediatric oncologist at Childrens Hospitals and Clinics of Minnesota and Daniel’s treating physician, on Friday estimated the risk of death from forgoing treatment at about 95 percent. And he testified that Daniel’s tumor had grown since he underwent one chemotherapy treatment in February.

“What is the ultimate outcome of that process?” Tom Sinas, an attorney for the guardian ad litem, asked of the tumor’s growth.

“Death,” Bostrom replied.

The StarTribune report goes on:

The Hausers declined to speak to reporters after Friday’s court session. But Dan Zwakman, a member of the Nemenhah religious group to which they belong, acted as the family spokesman. He argued that this is a case about religious freedom, noting that the group’s motto is “our religion is our medicine.”

. . . Earlier in the day, Dr. Bruce Bostrom of Children’s Hospitals and Clinics, who first diagnosed the cancer when the boy arrived at a Minneapolis emergency room in January, said Daniel has a 95 percent chance of survival if he receives chemotherapy.

Bostrom also said he believes Daniel does not fully understand his condition.

“I think that he understands that he was sick,” Bostrom testified. “He doesn’t understand that the Hodgkin’s is what’s making him sick, and he was led to believe that the chemotherapy was making him sick, when the exact opposite was true.”

“Religious freedom” is not the freedom to kill a child through withholding science-based medicine. A 13-year-old child, perhaps brainwashed by his parents, simply cannot make this decision for himself. This is a life-or-death conflict between science, which can save the child, and religion, which is killing him. No conflict here? What would Francis Collins say?

The only solution is for us to wait and see.what baffles me is when religious people,especiall christians come to the hospital for treatment.i thot christ was beaten for their sicknesses and diseases

tudor:

The only solution is for us to wait and see.what baffles me is when religious people,especiall christians come to the hospital for treatment.i thot christ was beaten for their sicknesses and diseases

how does christianity contradict/negate/oppose medicine?

did Christ ask christians not to seek medical help?

noetic:

how does christianity contradict/negate/oppose medicine?

did Christ ask christians not to seek medical help?

where does it say that christians should go to the hospital in the bible?

James 5:14-18 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. (KJV)

jesus says that does who believe in him will be able to perform magic. . . .because the bible said that he was a magician. . .

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.([/b]John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14)

why do christians go to hospitals if all they have to do is ask jesus to heal them? more promises. . .

For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; [b]and nothing will be impossible to you [/b]Matthew 17:20 .

I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. [b]If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. Matthew 21:21:

All the bible talks about is faith and belief once u have that you will be able to perform magic. . . .why do christians go to hospitals when jesus tells them to pray? why go to the hospital when the bible tells christians to go to the church elders?

Gbam! Pin point,answer the question ye sons of jehovah

mazaje:

where does it say that christians should go to the hospital in the bible?

jesus says that does who believe in him will be able to perform magic. . . .because the bible said that he was a magician. . .

why do christians go to hospitals if all they have to do is ask jesus to heal them? more promises. . .



All the bible talks about is faith and belief once u have that you will be able to perform magic. . . .why do christians go to hospitals when jesus tells them to pray? why go to the hospital when the bible tells christians to go to the church elders?

I am sick of ur irrelevant postulations and meaningless rhetorics. . . . . answer my questions directly or dont bother replying

did Jesus ask Christians NOT to use hospitals? was the porosity of the medical profession as high as in ancient Israel?

How does christianity negate/oppose/antagonise medical practices?

You can start by answering YES/NO and then give reasons.

It seems you didn't notice the conditions in Matthew 17 and 21. Faith. And that is why some Christians meet other Christians to pray with and for them, because their faith can't handle it alone. People grow spiritually, and their faith grows also.

Faith as a mustard seed isn't easy, even though mustard seeds are teeny weeny little things. The Bible talks about faithless people not receiving anything from God. The more difficult a situation is, the more faith you need, because you begin to think it's too hopeless to come out of.

My point: not everyone can handle everything. As you grow, you become stronger.

mactao:

It seems you didn't notice the conditions in Matthew 17 and 21. Faith. And that is why some Christians meet other Christians to pray with and for them, because their faith can't handle it alone. People grow spiritually, and their faith grows also.

Faith as a mustard seed isn't easy, even though mustard seeds are teeny weeny little things. The Bible talks about faithless people not receiving anything from God. The more difficult a situation is, the more faith you need, because you begin to think it's too hopeless to come out of.

My point: not everyone can handle everything. As you grow, you become stronger.

educating an atheist is like asking a donkey to drink water in very simple words.
can a donkey think/reason at all?

noetic:

I am sick of ur irrelevant postulations and meaningless rhetorics. . . . . answer my questions directly or dont bother replying

can you show me the part of what i have posted that is irrelevant? does the bible not tell you to go to the church elders when you are sick? why choose what to accept in the bible?

did Jesus ask Christians NOT to use hospitals? was the porosity of the medical profession as high as in ancient Israel?

yes. . . the bible which you believe is the word of your god clearly tells you what to do when you are sick. . .it doesn't mention hospitals. . . there were some kind of local doctors then. . .remember there is a part in the bible where the bible god got angry with a guy because he did not seek his healing when he was sick but went to the local doctors. . .

How does christianity negate/oppose/antagonise medical practices?

with the claims of miracles and the belief that prayers solves problems. . .prayer is what the bible tells people to do not to seek medical help. . .

You can start by answering YES/NO and then give reasons.

there is no where it says that christians should go to the hospital. . . .prayers and going to the church elders is what the bible recommends. . . hospital is a man made invention. . .drugs are man made inventions the bible god believes in miracles and magic. . .if the bible is true then christians will be performing magic end of story. . .

Mar16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

Mar 16:18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

why do christians go to the hospitals when jesus tells them that they will lay their hands on the sick and the will get well if only the believe in him?

noetic:

educating an atheist is like asking a donkey to drink water in very simple words.
can a donkey think/reason at all?

you believe in a book that says stars in the sky fight along side humans in battle and still believe that you can reason for your self? you believe in a book that makes failed promises after failed promises and you still believe you have a brain? you believe in a book that promises and tells you that if only you believe in it you will be able to perform magic which you are unable to and you still believe you can think for yourself? the problem becomes worse knowing very well that the book was written by unknown men who reported most of the events long after they allegedly happened. . . .

mazaje:

can you show me the part of what i have posted that is irrelevant? does the bible not tell you to go to the church elders when you are sick? why choose what to accept in the bible?

with the claims of miracles and the belief that prayers solves problems. . .prayer is what the bible tells people to do not to seek medical help. . .

there is no where it says that christians should go to the hospital. . . .prayers and going to the church elders is what the bible recommends. . . hospital is a man made invention. . .drugs are man made inventions the bible god believes in miracles and magic. . .if the bible is true then christians will be performing magic end of story. . .

why do christians go to the hospitals when jesus tells them that they will lay their hands on the sick and the will get well if only the believe in him?
you believe in a book that says stars in the sky fight along side humans in battle and still believe that you can reason for your self? you believe in a book that makes failed promises after failed promises and you still believe you have a brain? you believe in a book that promises and tells you that if only you believe in it you will be able to perform magic which you are unable to and you still believe you can think for yourself? the problem becomes worse knowing very well that the book was written by unknown men who reported most of the events long after they allegedly happened. . . .

where does the bible say DON'T GO TO HOSPITALS?

yes. . . the bible which you believe is the word of your god clearly tells you what to do when you are sick. . .it doesn't mention hospitals. . . there were some kind of local doctors then. . .remember there is a part in the bible where the bible god got angry with a guy because he did not seek his healing when he was sick but went to the local doctors. . .

who were the local "doctors"? medical practitioners or spiritualists?

Regarding the Bible and medicine.

Stating that the Bible is erroneous because it doesn't tell people to go to hospital is stupid.

There was no such thing as hospital when the Bible was written.
Not only that but medicinal practices were totally and utterly different to those today.
No messing guys but the practice of medicine one hundred years ago is totally different than modern day technique so how can you expect to use the Bible as an argument?

@ Forum
With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion.

–Steven Weinberg


Reposted from http://whyevolutionistrue./
No conflict between science and religion, you say? Have a look at this article from the Minneapolist StarTribune. Thirteen-year old Daniel Hauser, whose parents are Catholics but adhere to the healing practices of “the Nemenhah religious group” (this appears to be a Native American religion that believes in spiritual and herbal healing) decided that he didn’t want treatment for his Hodgkin’s lymphoma. Instead, he wants herbal treatments, and his parents are supporting him. With chemotherapy, the cure rate is very high; doctors say that without it his survival probability is 5%.

The Hausers are in court:

Colleen and Anthony Hauser are in a legal battle with Brown County, where authorities are accusing the parents of child neglect and endangerment. After Daniel stopped chemotherapy after a single treatment, opting instead for “alternative medicines,” child protection workers went to court requesting custody.

Doctors had recommended six chemo treatments, followed by radiation. Dr. Bruce Bostrom, a pediatric oncologist at Childrens Hospitals and Clinics of Minnesota and Daniel’s treating physician, on Friday estimated the risk of death from forgoing treatment at about 95 percent. And he testified that Daniel’s tumor had grown since he underwent one chemotherapy treatment in February.

“What is the ultimate outcome of that process?” Tom Sinas, an attorney for the guardian ad litem, asked of the tumor’s growth.

“Death,” Bostrom replied.

The StarTribune report goes on:

The Hausers declined to speak to reporters after Friday’s court session. But Dan Zwakman, a member of the Nemenhah religious group to which they belong, acted as the family spokesman. He argued that this is a case about religious freedom, noting that the group’s motto is “our religion is our medicine.”

. . . Earlier in the day, Dr. Bruce Bostrom of Children’s Hospitals and Clinics, who first diagnosed the cancer when the boy arrived at a Minneapolis emergency room in January, said Daniel has a 95 percent chance of survival if he receives chemotherapy.

Bostrom also said he believes Daniel does not fully understand his condition.

“I think that he understands that he was sick,” Bostrom testified. “He doesn’t understand that the Hodgkin’s is what’s making him sick, and he was led to believe that the chemotherapy was making him sick, when the exact opposite was true.”

“Religious freedom” is not the freedom to kill a child through withholding science-based medicine. A 13-year-old child, perhaps brainwashed by his parents, simply cannot make this decision for himself. This is a life-or-death conflict between science, which can save the child, and religion, which is killing him. No conflict here? What would Francis Collins say?

yes Sola scriptura

well if I may understand what the above piece is all about is not saying that Christians are going to hospitals rather its talking about the authority opposing the belief of a person from choosing to be healed without depending on medicines. now medicine is not bad but one has a choice to choose what he/she believes,

so before any ado, i hope the atheist understand where huxley is coming from.

so the question is not why are Christians going to the hospital rather why are Christians choosing to trust the Lord for healing instead of medicines.

i think from there we can proceed!



@tudor
The only solution is for us to wait and see.what baffles me is when religious people,especiall christians come to the hospital for treatment.i thot christ was beaten for their sicknesses and diseases

to correct you, and not beaten!
Matt 8:17
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities , and bare our sicknesses.
KJV



@mazaje
where does it say that christians should go to the hospital in the bible?

hospitals are part of the world and the world belongs to christians
1 Cor 3:21-23
21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
KJV




jesus says that does who believe in him will be able to perform magic. . . .because the bible said that he was a magician. . .

naa not the bible. where is it stated? Please quote for us not your limited understanding that is darkened by the god of this world so that you do not believe the gospel to be saved.
2 Cor 4:4-5
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
KJV



why do christians go to hospitals if all they have to do is ask jesus to heal them? more promises. . .

[b]ahh sola scriptura only!
read this Mark 5:25-34
25 And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years,
26 And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse,
27 When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.
28 For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.
29 And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.
30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?
31 And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
32 And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing.
33 But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.
34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
KJV


now mazaje, your god – even though you choose not to accept him – satan – has blinded your eyes. Jesus Christ has never contradicted or negated doctors/physicians, instead He graciously healed a woman who had spent all her money on doctor’s treatment which did not prove successful. [size=20pt]So Jesus Christ, never contradicted hospitals because He never condemned the woman for seeing the doctors first before coming to Him.[/size] Therefore we can safely conclude if you go to hospitals, trust God; if doctors cant help through the knowledge He graciously help them acquire, you can come to Him for healing, not magic, through faith as you rightly quoted from the various scriptures.

Doctors cure but God Heals!!!

Ka gane ko! Allah ya bude maka ido kuma! Salam! Shalom!

[/b]

With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion.

This statement is just utter bullshit. Anyone can do evil. It does not take a belief in religion to do so.

Bastage:

This statement is just utter bullshit. Anyone can do evil. It does not take a belief in religion to do so.

Did you really read the comment? It clealy does imply that ANYONE can do evil, but it takes religions for good people to do evil. If you disagree, can you provide some counter-examples?

Christians should not be allowed in hospital and should not even be allowed to call an ambulance. If they have an accident or are sick they just have to open their Bible instead of relying on atheist doctors or the use of medical science.

Video clip on faith healing.FAITH HEALING - John L Armstrong

huxley:

Did you really read the comment? It clealy does imply that ANYONE can do evil, but it takes religions for good people to do evil. If you disagree, can you provide some counter-examples?

who are good people? what qualifies a person to be good?

noetic:

who are good people? what qualifies a person to be good?

Let me give you some examples from the bible since that is the only thing you seem to understand.

Some Good People from the Bible:

1)  Moses

2)  Abraham

3)  Aaron

4)  Joshua

5)  King David

6)  Judah

7)  Apostle Paul

8.)  Jesus

As a bible believer, you know these people and you have good knowledge of their character. These people were also favoured by God so they MUST be good.  Don't you agree? 

Now for each of these people, can you indicate whether you think these are good people?

huxley:

Let me give you some examples from the bible since that is the only thing you seem to understand.

Some Good People from the Bible:

1)  Moses

2)  Abraham

3)  Aaron

4)  Joshua

5)  King David

6)  Judah

7)  Apostle Paul

8.)  Jesus

As a bible believer, you know these people and you have good knowledge of their character. These people were also favoured by God so they MUST be good.  Don't you agree? 
Now for each of these people, can you indicate whether you think these are good people?

I dont agree.
except for Jesus, the rest on ur list were simply favoured men, not good, as far as I am concerned. They simply found favour with God.
Each of them at one time or the other committed sins, present day christians are also battling with.

The only difference between king saul and david was that david was more favoured. The same with moses, Aaron, Joshua and Abraham. They were justified by grace and not by works. As such I have no idea what u mean by a "good" person.

if u can define a good person, then it would be easier to analyse ur statements.
How does religion make a good man do evil? who is a good person?

Did you really read the comment?   It clealy does imply that ANYONE can do evil,  but it takes religions for good people to do evil.

Read my comment again.

It does not take a religion to make good people do evil.
There have been plenty of good people who have been athiests who have bleeped up and committed evil acts.
There have been plenty of believers who have bleeped up where there religion has had no impact on thier actions.

Religion has been used as a justification to commit evil but to say that the only good people who mess up do so because of religion is complete and utter bullshit.

noetic:

I dont agree.
except for Jesus, the rest on ur list were simply favoured men, not good, as far as I am concerned. They simply found favour with God.
Each of them at one time or the other committed sins, present day christians are also battling with.

The only difference between king saul and david was that david was more favoured. The same with moses, Aaron, Joshua and Abraham. They were justified by grace and not by works. As such I have no idea what u mean by a "good" person.

if u can define a good person, then it would be easier to analyse ur statements.
How does religion make a good man do evil? who is a good person?

I have not got good working definition of what I mean by "good person" now, but I think we both could arrive at it.  so just bear with me.

Is goodness equals sinlessness?  Is is possible for one to be sinful and yet good?


Can one be evil and also sinless?

@ Hux

The amount of time U spend bashing religion just befuddles the mind

Uche2nna:

  @ Hux

The amount of time U spend bashing religion just befuddles the mind 

the guy spends hours everyday studying the bible, he cant do without it, the power of christ

Can one be evil and also sinless?

It's relative.
If you're an atheist, you don't believe in sin.
Therefore, how can you consider yourself to be anything but sinless?
You can consider yourself to be immoral or evil but sin is in the realms of religion.

huxley:

I have not got good working definition of what I mean by "good person" now, but I think we both could arrive at it.  so just bear with me.

Is goodness equals sinlessness?  Is is possible for one to be sinful and yet good?


Can one be evil and also sinless?

how do we arrive at an acceptable concept of sin that would lead to goodness?
A christian sins against GOD. who does an atheist sin against?

Bastage:

Read my comment again.

It does not take a religion to make good people do evil.

Just think about it.  What would motivate someone who is ordinarily good to commit an evil act?  I know we have not yet defined what we mean by good, but let us just go with the common-sense notion of the word.

In fact, let me attempt a defintion of a good person - A good person has a reasonable combination of the following:

1)  Some one who show great concern and respect for his fellow human

2)  Some one who exercises control, moderation, due humility in the pursuance of their life

3) They appreciate and dedicate some investments towards the betterment of others and the environment

How is that?   Why would anyone who adheres to standards such as the above be motivated to commit evil?

Bastage:

There have been plenty of good people who have been athiests who have bleeped up and committed evil acts.

You say there are plenty.  Can you supply some examples?


On the contrary, there are many example of pseudo-good people  whose morals have been totally corrupted by their religions and the belief in God.

1)  Take for instance the hundreds of families who have deprived their children of medical care for religious reasons.  These were ordinarily good families by all known definition of the word but because of their corrupted metaphysical view, they would do things as evil as that.

2)  Take the case of John Calvin and his burn of Servetas for herecy

Need I go on?

Bastage:

There have been plenty of believers who have bleeped up where there religion has had no impact on thier actions.

Religion has been used as a justification to commit evil but to say that the only good people who mess up do so because of religion is complete and utter bullshit.

Yes, the comment did not say that religions is the cause of all fucking-up.  It just said that where good people do evil, religions is that cause.


I await you plenty of counter-examples.

noetic:

where does the bible say DON'T GO TO HOSPITALS?

where does it say that christians should go to the hospitals? the bible clearly tells christians that they are to go to the church elders for healing. . .the same bible even went ahead and says that   the jesus took away the sickness and infirmities of christians

Matt 8:17
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities , and bare our sicknesses.
KJV

who were the local "doctors"?  medical practitioners or spiritualists?

you are the one the believes the words of ancient people who believe that demons and evil spirits cause diseases. . . .

@esensed

ka sha kwaya ko? na ga sai copying and pasting kawai kake ta yi. . . ba ka ma san abun da kake yi ba. . . .sola scriptura ko? zauna nan ka na ta rudin kan ka. . . . .

@POSTER

I've been studying your posts on this forum and now i can easily conclude that you're partially drifting off from your NORMAL mental status. People of such character as yours are mostly referred to mental home when it gets to grade 3 to 4. So watch out and check on your mental capability.

skyone:

@POSTER

I've been studying your posts on this forum and now i can easily conclude that you're partially drifting off from your NORMAL mental status. People of such character as yours are mostly referred to mental home when it gets to grade 3 to 4. So watch out and check on your mental capability.

Hey, why don't you forget about my mental state and just respond to the questions I raised. That you choose to attack me suggests that you are unwilling or incapable of addressing the questions. Now, who do you think has got a deluded mental state?

With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion.

    –Steven Weinberg

I've discovered that Steven WEINBERG is a more or less a chronic atheist from his articles i've read and therefore i'm not surprised at this awful connotation as well. But as per you i have also discovered that you have a strong biased mind against christianity and you show it to public by posting several meaningless and unreasonable thread on this forum; the reason why you are up for this i dont know. if you have personal hatred or bad ideaology against the christian society why not keep it to yourself and live with it.

i refered you to mental home somply because it has now gotten to the stage that it is uncontrollable, so i just have to suggest something that can give solution to your problem.

skyone:

With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion.

–Steven Weinberg

I've discovered that Steven WEINBERG is a more or less a chronic atheist from his articles i've read and therefore i'm not surprised at this awful connotation as well. But as per you i have also discovered that you have a strong biased mind against christianity and you show it to public by posting several meaningless and unreasonable thread on this forum; the reason why you are up this i dont know. if you have personal hatred or bad ideaology against the christian society why not keep it to yourself and live with it.

The reason why i'm referring you to mental home is because it has now gotten to the stage that it is uncontrollable, so i just have to suggest something that can give solution to your problem.

Yes, if the statements or arguments are wrong, please counter them with you own arguments. That is how intellectual or cultural disputes are resolved. If you have arguments, bring them forward. If you have no arguments and have simply been drinking off the cesspit of the bible, with your stinking smelly arse emitting it stench, then go away. You have no place in civilised society, you deserve to be back in the bronze age where this doctrine emanates.


Activist atheist and anturalist are interested in religion in the same way that a surgeon is interested in a cancerous growth. That is why I spend time here. Some people are incurably deluded and such people are the ones that threaten civilisation and retard progress. The enlightened have a duty to help the not-so-enlightened see the light of day. That is why I am here.

huxley:

That is why I spend time here. Some people are incurably deluded and such people are the ones that threaten civilisation and retard progress.

LMAO

How does ur hatred for religion affect the price of fish?