ifeness:
Faith is the absence of knowledge. Faith often lead to death of Christians. OP you claimed Atheist often get it wrong, what have they got wrong so far?

Let's assume the winner of a lottery didn't show up to claim his reward, whom do we give it to? The Gorvernment? And even if we do give it to the Government, it is because the winner didn't bother to show up,which also mean we all know someday he might come for it eventually.

Bottom line is, your unknown God is allowed to take credit for creating the light bulb until Tesla shows up to claim his credit

BETATRON:
Nice write up mr-op
But the truth is not every body belief things for a reason,more than 70% of those who accept a particular religion are only in it because their predecessor are in it..not that they had the conviction that it is the correct path to follow

And second is reason,and intellectual debate has left the sphere of religion in the sense that whenever something appears inexplicable in our holy book we shun it instead of question it (why question what is from God)

That's why a lot are atheist today,,the clergy men or the so called scholars are only after superstitious aspect of religion(miracles) forgetting that the world has evolved and now a world of intellect "although these miracles still entice those with poor-sight(ignorant) who don't know what religion is actually all about

May be the church should start by provided intellectual answers to the athiest,and also educate its members on the pillars of religion not mere blowing into knots and performance of magic ,,if not the trend will continue ""my people suffer for the lack of knowledge"

malvisguy212:
alright. Are you a christian ?

malvisguy212:
alright. Are you a christian ?

malvisguy212:
I see no sense in your post, what do you mean by "faith lead to the death of christians?" on many occasions, atheists have liken faith as something you have NO knowledge of, but here you are saying different thing. The christian faith is not opposed to reason and knowledge because God invite us to reason together with Him.the fact that every human has freewill and God will not override our choice, mean everyone of us is responsible for our belief. You cannot force your self to believe in lies. innately you know it lie.

BETATRON:

A muslim; why did you ask?

malvisguy212:
I see no sense in your post, what do you mean by "faith lead to the death of christians?" on many occasions, atheists have liken faith as something you have NO knowledge of, but here you are saying different thing. The christian faith is not opposed to reason and knowledge because God invite us to reason together with Him.the fact that every human has freewill and God will not override our choice, mean everyone of us is responsible for our belief. You cannot force your self to believe in lies. innately you know it lie.

malvisguy212:
Justification is the concept that provides
our belief with the assuredness of its
truth. People believe things for reasons,
which provide the warrant for their belief.Without these reasons,you do not have knowledge of what you believe. If a belief is JUSTIFIED, then we have the right to believe it. Atheists got it wrong, there view was; " since you cannot know something with 100% certainty, you cannot obtain the truth (or knowledge), you just have to believe ,God did it". The bible say otherwise, in Isaiah 1:18 God is calling human to "come and let us REASON together"

This brief journey into obtaining knowledge of what you belief was done in order to show the relationship between FAITH,BELIEF AND TRUTH . Christianity requires faith, faith requires
belief, and belief requires TRUTH.This is not just a mere belief but rather a trust that is characterized as knowledge.

malvisguy212:
I see no sense in your post, what do you mean by "faith lead to the death of christians?" on many occasions, atheists have liken faith as something you have NO knowledge of, but here you are saying different thing. The christian faith is not opposed to reason and knowledge because God invite us to reason together with Him.the fact that every human has freewill and God will not override our choice, mean everyone of us is responsible for our belief. You cannot force your self to believe in lies. innately you know it lie.

menesheh:


You are subjecting faith and believe to be a virtue. You can believe anything for good reason or for bad reason. Justifications as you rightly described, (valid evidence and proof in order to justify your holding a believe as truth) are being misinterpreted by supernatural believers as any personal assumed stuffs one can hold on to, to justify an idea as truth in a very strong way.


In your own case of holding jesus and Paul's views very strongly as a justification for believing in Christian teachings as absolute truth without any chance of it being fallible is misleading. Applying faith as you rightly pointed out in your second paragraph is one of the worst reasons and justifications to holding a believe, not even to a certain degree but absolutely.

Even science that is based on methodological naturalism, evidence, consistency, falsification, peer review, skepticism, proof etc are not 100% absolute on their findings and facts, not minding the irrefutable and mountains of evidence supporting such thesis. Let alone your religious views that are base on faith, went so far as holding its tenets as absolute truth without any chance of it being false.

Tell me any provable justifications why one should hold any belief atall on faith. Let's exclude your religion on this list. Just any other believe system.





- Hinduism requires faith, faith requires belief, and belief requires TRUTH

- Muslims requires faith, faith requires belief, and belief requires TRUTH

-Leprechaunians requires faith, faith requires belief, and belief requires TRUTH


- Believiers of Amadioha requires faith, faith requires
belief, and belief requires TRUTH

- Scientology requires faith, faith requires belief, and belief requires TRUTH

Faith is not only meant to believe Christian teachings but almost every thing that lacks evidence and good justifications to believing, even a yahoo yahoo G that wants to swindle you, you can also go ahead and accept his proposals as truth.

We live our daily life by inference and induction but coming to the religion, we have to suspend evaluation and prove, just accept it. No brother, faith is far from being any reliable justification to hold a believe. Even the least irrelevant ideas, faith can't still survive.

malvisguy212:
sorry for the late reply, I am very busy.

Isaiah 1:18, "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD." The Lord encourages Christians to think
and to reason together. The Bible is full of common sense and wisdom. It has been demonstrated to be correct through practice, time, archeology discoveries, and scientific facts. It is not a leap into the unknown, but a leap based upon common sense and facts.

Of all the religions you mention, which among them put their teaching to a litmus test? Proved what they preach is the truth. God do not just we should believe, He want us to use our mind and be FULLY convinced of what we believe, the bible say faith alone cannot guarantee salvation, why ?because God want us to be sure of what we believe. You are an atheist,right? Let me ask you, is doubt the opposite of faith?

donnffd:


I understand you, but let me throw you a scenerio, I am most certain that you believe time is constant,that is,it flows in one direction...Everyone thinks that, atleast 200years ago, Albert Einstein came up with a crazy idea that time can slow down or fasten up, crazy idea but really really true, Evidence supports these but we can never experience this in our everyday life. Now imagine growing up, believing time is linear, and then some dude tells you, no its not, its stretchy...you should find that hard to believe, even hard to comprehend because thats not your world view or what you came to know about reality, but because you see the evidence, you have to believe it...This is not what happens with religion,you have been brought up in a particular faith, you get confronted by someone who has evidence that your view is wrong, but you refuse to believe it because of the deep rooted foundation in your faith... if thats not the height of ignorance, then i dont know what is.

PS: You said your belief is based on truth, i would like to know this truth!!!

menesheh:



You still never demonstrate how faith is the best possible method to apply to verify whether an idea is justifiable to stand as fact.

List other things we can believe very strongly with the application of faith?


Quoting bible verses may not be necessary at this stage until you demonstrate that the bible is true amd reliable.

hightempo:
Nice write up.. . U've really done justice to the case. however, many People have eyes but it is most unfortunate that they cant see.... Belief is the most dangerous thing in the whole existence because you psyche yourself into believing anything you wish to believe.. . Belief wihtout reasoning criples human intelligence and that is why so many believer are mediocre, they have lost their inherent capacity of Awearness.. JESUS is not a believer, he challenged and questioned the whole authourity of his time, he was a revolutionarist and he was crusified for speaking the truth.. . Many believer are chicken, they think by going to the temple they are on their way to eternal, that is a pure lie, it is a mere propaganda. Truth has no home, no Temple, no relligion, Truth is here and now. Only the truth can set you free. .. This message is for People Who are tired of tradition. . dont try to become anybody just be yourself.

malvisguy212:
if you answer my question, then you will be clear on faith, is doubt the opposite of faith?

The book of job is the oldest book in the bible, even older than the book of Genesis, there are amazing claims in the book of job that we cannot ignored , things ONLY God could've known.

Job 38:16 Hast thou entered into the
springs of the sea? or hast thou walked
in the search of the depth?

We didn’t “walk in search of the depth [of the sea]“, I.E.,the deepest part of the
ocean, until 1875 when we discovered
the deepest point on Earth, the Challenger Deep in the Marianas Trench
(although we weren’t sure it was the
deepest point until much later). We
didn’t fully survey it until 1951. We didn’t actually “walk” in it until 1960!
But how does this prove the existence of
God?Simply the fact that in most ancient
cultures, the ocean HAD no bottom! The
Greek word abyss, used for the deep
ocean, literally means “bottomless”! And
3500 years ago, only God could have
known with such certainty that the ocean did in fact have a “depth”!!

Furthermore, in the same verse, a
completely separate proof exists; for to
the ancient mind, the idea of a “spring”
in the midst of the sea was unthinkable
and illogical. Why would there be water
pouring INTO the sea from underground
– the sea is where water came from! And mankind for all his technological
achievements didn’t discover underwater springs until 1949 – A.D.! Almost four millennium after Job was written! And even then, it wasn’t confirmed until 1960, and it wasn’t until 1979 that human beings first saw deep-sea springs with their own eyes! No one but God could possibly have known they existed four thousand years ago!

Job 38:18 Hast thou perceived the
breadth of the earth? declare if thou
knowest it all.

Man didn’t measure the circumference
(“breadth”) of the Earth with even remote accuracy until Eratosthenes did it in about 240 BC. But God knew exactly how large it was. For He sits “above the circle of it”.

Job 38:19 Where is the way where light
dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is
the place thereof, Until roughly the time of Newton, no one knew that there was a “way” where light “dwells” – that is, a direction where light comes from. Photons, the particles that carry and, for all practical purposes, are light, weren’t discovered until Einstein. The ancient Greeks, arguably the most scientifically advanced of the ancient cultures, believed what we perceived as light was actually “feeling rays” sent by the eye to “look” at the objects, which reflected them and made a picture. None of the Greeks seemed to realize that the idea begged the question of why we couldn’t see in the dark. And they had had the clearest ideas on light to date! Well… except for what God wrote in Job, a thousand years before. Only God knew
there was a place where light came from 4,000 years ago. No one really hit on the right idea – except in Job – until about 1000 A.D when the Arabic mathematician Alhazen realized the flaws in the Greek thinking. And it took another 500 years for his ideas to influence Europe through men like Galileo and Newton. And we didn’t REALLY start to understand it until a
century ago.
http://thesimpleanswers.com/2009/08/08/does-god-exist/

menesheh:


Waw

The discussion is so sweet.

Sir you are going off point both out of my questions and out of the theme of your thread.

Doubt can be opposite of faith depending on where you're coming from.

What have these gat to do with the list of examples of other possible things we can accept with faith.

menesheh:


Waw

The discussion is so sweet.

Sir you are going off point both out of my questions and out of the theme of your thread.

Doubt can be opposite of faith depending on where you're coming from.

What have these gat to do with the list of examples of other possible things we can accept with faith.

dalaman:


malvisguy212 only copies and paste materials from christain apologist websites, he hardly ever reasons and puts his thoughts down, so you should expect his post to be off point and off topic most of the time.

malvisguy212:
Justification is the concept that provides
our belief with the assuredness of its
truth. People believe things for reasons,
which provide the warrant for their belief.Without these reasons,you do not have knowledge of what you believe. If a belief is JUSTIFIED, then we have the right to believe it. Atheists got it wrong, there view was; " since you cannot know something with 100% certainty, you cannot obtain the truth (or knowledge), you just have to believe ,God did it". The bible say otherwise, in Isaiah 1:18 God is calling human to "come and let us REASON together"

This brief journey into obtaining knowledge of what you belief was done in order to show the relationship between FAITH,BELIEF AND TRUTH . Christianity requires faith, faith requires
belief, and belief requires TRUTH.This is not just a mere belief but rather a trust that is characterized as knowledge.


Notice how Paul incorporates all three of these elements in his letter to the
Romans, “if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved” (Romans 10:9). You cannot "confess with your mouth" without knowing the truth.

No matter how hard I try, I cannot make myself believe that there is a pink elephant in the room right now. I do not have direct free will over my beliefs, i.e. I can’t make myself believe something. I also cannot just tell people what to believe or exhort them to believe it. But if I don’t have free will over my beliefs, how can the Bible hold me responsible for them? The answer lies in the fact that I do have responsibility as to where I choose to focus my mind. I have free choice in body movements and where to place my attention (what you choose to think about). I have to choose to be preoccupied with something to change my belief or increase my certainty in that belief .Faith in the biblical sense means trust or confidence, confident in what we know to be TRUE. You do not have to be 100% certain in a belief for it to count as knowledge.

The bible say faith alone cannot save , why? because what you have faith in
must be TRUE, Biblical faith is accurate knowledge combined with ACTIVE TRUST Faith and knowledge are not opposed to each other. So Trusting faith alone does NOT save, but instead what is trusted MUST be true.

The faith Jesus had was not an absence of knowledge, but was based upon an intimate knowledge of his Father. We too can gain knowledge to make our faith richer.

malvisguy212:
Cc Seun , lalasticlala

malvisguy212:
Justification is the concept that provides
our belief with the assuredness of its
truth. People believe things for reasons,
which provide the warrant for their belief.Without these reasons,you do not have knowledge of what you believe. If a belief is JUSTIFIED, then we have the right to believe it. Atheists got it wrong, there view was; " since you cannot know something with 100% certainty, you cannot obtain the truth (or knowledge), you just have to believe ,God did it". The bible say otherwise, in Isaiah 1:18 God is calling human to "come and let us REASON together"

This brief journey into obtaining knowledge of what you belief was done in order to show the relationship between FAITH,BELIEF AND TRUTH . Christianity requires faith, faith requires
belief, and belief requires TRUTH.This is not just a mere belief but rather a trust that is characterized as knowledge.


Notice how Paul incorporates all three of these elements in his letter to the
Romans, “if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved” (Romans 10:9). You cannot "confess with your mouth" without knowing the truth.

No matter how hard I try, I cannot make myself believe that there is a pink elephant in the room right now. I do not have direct free will over my beliefs, i.e. I can’t make myself believe something. I also cannot just tell people what to believe or exhort them to believe it. But if I don’t have free will over my beliefs, how can the Bible hold me responsible for them? The answer lies in the fact that I do have responsibility as to where I choose to focus my mind. I have free choice in body movements and where to place my attention (what you choose to think about). I have to choose to be preoccupied with something to change my belief or increase my certainty in that belief .Faith in the biblical sense means trust or confidence, confident in what we know to be TRUE. You do not have to be 100% certain in a belief for it to count as knowledge.

The bible say faith alone cannot save , why? because what you have faith in
must be TRUE, Biblical faith is accurate knowledge combined with ACTIVE TRUST Faith and knowledge are not opposed to each other. So Trusting faith alone does NOT save, but instead what is trusted MUST be true.

The faith Jesus had was not an absence of knowledge, but was based upon an intimate knowledge of his Father. We too can gain knowledge to make our faith richer.

lexiconkabir:
i am 100% sure you either didnt read my post up there or you were too dumb to understand it. Ok, lets assume you are not bounded by the "old covenant" can you say the same for the banu quraytha, in case you dont know, banu quraytha were jews and they believed in this "old covenant", since they believed in it, they were judged using it, so whats your problem with that? and yes! never should you tell me to shut up, if you do, you wont like the outcome, ok?

malvisguy212:
Justification is the concept that provides
our belief with the assuredness of its
truth. People believe things for reasons,
which provide the warrant for their belief.Without these reasons,you do not have knowledge of what you believe. If a belief is JUSTIFIED, then we have the right to believe it. Atheists got it wrong, there view was; " since you cannot know something with 100% certainty, you cannot obtain the truth (or knowledge), you just have to believe ,God did it". The bible say otherwise, in Isaiah 1:18 God is calling human to "come and let us REASON together"

This brief journey into obtaining knowledge of what you belief was done in order to show the relationship between FAITH,BELIEF AND TRUTH . Christianity requires faith, faith requires
belief, and belief requires TRUTH.This is not just a mere belief but rather a trust that is characterized as knowledge.


Notice how Paul incorporates all three of these elements in his letter to the
Romans, “if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved” (Romans 10:9). You cannot "confess with your mouth" without knowing the truth.

No matter how hard I try, I cannot make myself believe that there is a pink elephant in the room right now. I do not have direct free will over my beliefs, i.e. I can’t make myself believe something. I also cannot just tell people what to believe or exhort them to believe it. But if I don’t have free will over my beliefs, how can the Bible hold me responsible for them? The answer lies in the fact that I do have responsibility as to where I choose to focus my mind. I have free choice in body movements and where to place my attention (what you choose to think about). I have to choose to be preoccupied with something to change my belief or increase my certainty in that belief .Faith in the biblical sense means trust or confidence, confident in what we know to be TRUE. You do not have to be 100% certain in a belief for it to count as knowledge.

The bible say faith alone cannot save , why? because what you have faith in
must be TRUE, Biblical faith is accurate knowledge combined with ACTIVE TRUST Faith and knowledge are not opposed to each other. So Trusting faith alone does NOT save, but instead what is trusted MUST be true.

The faith Jesus had was not an absence of knowledge, but was based upon an intimate knowledge of his Father. We too can gain knowledge to make our faith richer.

malvisguy212:
trash. He ask for proof and I provide some for him.

dalaman:


Which proof did you provide?

malvisguy212:
if you answer my question, then you will be clear on faith, is doubt the opposite of faith?
The book of job is the oldest book in the bible, even older than the book of Genesis, there are amazing claims in the book of job that we cannot ignored , things ONLY God could've known.
Job 38:16 Hast thou entered into the
springs of the sea? or hast thou walked
in the search of the depth?
We didn’t “walk in search of the depth [of the sea]“, I.E.,the deepest part of the
ocean, until 1875 when we discovered
the deepest point on Earth, the Challenger Deep in the Marianas Trench
(although we weren’t sure it was the
deepest point until much later). We
didn’t fully survey it until 1951. We didn’t actually “walk” in it until 1960!
But how does this prove the existence of
God?Simply the fact that in most ancient
cultures, the ocean HAD no bottom! The
Greek word abyss, used for the deep
ocean, literally means “bottomless”! And
3500 years ago, only God could have
known with such certainty that the ocean did in fact have a “depth”!!
Furthermore, in the same verse, a
completely separate proof exists; for to
the ancient mind, the idea of a “spring”
in the midst of the sea was unthinkable
and illogical. Why would there be water
pouring INTO the sea from underground
– the sea is where water came from! And mankind for all his technological
achievements didn’t discover underwater springs until 1949 – A.D.! Almost four millennium after Job was written! And even then, it wasn’t confirmed until 1960, and it wasn’t until 1979 that human beings first saw deep-sea springs with their own eyes! No one but God could possibly have known they existed four thousand years ago!
Job 38:18 Hast thou perceived the
breadth of the earth? declare if thou
knowest it all.
Man didn’t measure the circumference
(“breadth”) of the Earth with even remote accuracy until Eratosthenes did it in about 240 BC. But God knew exactly how large it was. For He sits “above the circle of it”.
Job 38:19 Where is the way where light
dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is
the place thereof, Until roughly the time of Newton, no one knew that there was a “way” where light “dwells” – that is, a direction where light comes from. Photons, the particles that carry and, for all practical purposes, are light, weren’t discovered until Einstein. The ancient Greeks, arguably the most scientifically advanced of the ancient cultures, believed what we perceived as light was actually “feeling rays” sent by the eye to “look” at the objects, which reflected them and made a picture. None of the Greeks seemed to realize that the idea begged the question of why we couldn’t see in the dark. And they had had the clearest ideas on light to date! Well… except for what God wrote in Job, a thousand years before. Only God knew
there was a place where light came from 4,000 years ago. No one really hit on the right idea – except in Job – until about 1000 A.D when the Arabic mathematician Alhazen realized the flaws in the Greek thinking. And it took another 500 years for his ideas to influence Europe through men like Galileo and Newton. And we didn’t REALLY start to understand it until a
century ago.
http://thesimpleanswers.com/2009/08/08/does-god-exist/

dalaman:


Which proof did you provide?