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The Crusades: Christianity's Violent Past - Religion (3) - Nairaland

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Re: The Crusades: Christianity's Violent Past by Annunaki(m): 1:04pm On Dec 31, 2015
Chizzled06:


That went to liberate who from what please? The Christians' only concern was the piece of land. There was no-one forcefully under captivity that needed liberating.

You need a proper history class.

And you still haven't answered my question. What about the inquisitions? What's your "justification" for that?

Did I tell you I wanted to justify the inquisitions
Re: The Crusades: Christianity's Violent Past by Chizzled06(m): 1:10pm On Dec 31, 2015
winner01:
Reality stares at you. Its why you arnt in islams section.
Its 5000 gods according to most atheists and they arnt made up. I suppose you thought the demons that fell with lucifer all went into hiding.
We can do a little case study on nairaland for instance. The God that satanists, atheists, agnostics, spiritualists, alien believers, and nothing-believers like you are constantly against is the true God, ill leave you to determine who that God is.
No matter what evil or nothing sect you think you belong, it pitches you against the true God by default. Its why you uncontrollably talk against this God even when you claim to have the same feeling for other gods.
You choose evil by rejecting the good, you choose failure by refusing to suceed, you choose death by rejecting life. Its the default setting of the world created by God.

Now you have shifted from "evidence" to the"multiple religion" theory. Dont worry, its called conscience, it makes you conscious of a greater authority. You can fight it all you want. Religion is false, God is God

“The current intellectual assault on God in Europe and North America is in fact a specific attack on Christianity – the faith that stubbornly persists in the morality, laws, and government of the major Western countries. . . .The God they fight is the Christian God, because He is their own God. . . .God is the leftists’ chief rival. Christian belief, by subjecting all men to divine authority and by asserting in the words ‘My kingdom is not of this world’ that the ideal society does not exist in this life, is the most coherent and potent obstacle to secular utopianism. . . . the Bible angers and frustrates those who believe that the pursuit of a perfect society justifies the quest for absolute power.”- Peter Hitchens

Maybe you're right. Maybe I have a slight inclination towards targeting Christianity more than any other mindless religion.
But that's because I was born into Christianity, indoctrinated into the mental shackles until I learnt enough about the world to realize it was all bullshit. That's right. I used to be you. And I continue to be surrounded by people infected by this colonial mental illness.

But then, every man is entitled to his delusion. And so are you.

Just so you know, there's something inside you that tells you right from wrong, and allows you to feel empathy. It existed before religion, and will remain afterwards.

Even after I lost my faith and found reason, my conscience stayed. So labeling religious as good, and non religious as evil, is plain ignorance.
Re: The Crusades: Christianity's Violent Past by CoolUsername: 2:02pm On Dec 31, 2015
Richirich713:


Stalin definitely promoted atheism in the Soviet Union.

And Hitler was no christian, people are not sure what he was, some even think he was a atheist.

Also the Op argument breaks down when we note that Jesus taught love and peace instead of war, the crusaders actions cannot be regarded as christian especially since it disobeys jesus basic teachings.

Jesus taught to :

Turn the other cheek. (Matthew 5:39)

Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you (Matthew 5:44)

When the fighting starts, flee (Matthew 24:16)

So calling the crusaders actions "christian" is just wrong.








Eh, Hitler was definitely christian although I see why you guys want to disown him so bad.

His belt buckle and that of all the Nazis had the german words "Gott Mit Uns" which means "God With Us" on them. Darwinian texts were also banned in the country at the time.
Re: The Crusades: Christianity's Violent Past by winner01(m): 2:03pm On Dec 31, 2015
Chizzled06:


Maybe you're right. Maybe I have a slight inclination towards targeting Christianity more than any other mindless religion.
But that's because I was born into Christianity, indoctrinated into the mental shackles until I learnt enough about the world to realize it was all bullshit. That's right. I used to be you. And I continue to be surrounded by people infected by this colonial mental illness.

But then, every man is entitled to his delusion. And so are you.

Just so you know, there's something inside you that tells you right from wrong, and allows you to feel empathy. It existed before religion, and will remain afterwards.

Even after I lost my faith and found reason, my conscience stayed. So labeling religious as good, and non religious as evil, is plain ignorance.
Its almost impossible to find a christian that hadnt doubted his belief at a time.
God be my witness, I had serious doubts at a younger age even before i knew what atheism meant. I felt reluctant to go to church, what if all these isnt real, is this power really potent.
But I bless God for his grace in directing my steps such that i didnt find solace in evil.
And its not cos you were born a christian, even born atheists target christianity, worse still muslim turned atheists too. You only got what you wanted not that christianity is bull, and now, your past still seems to haunt you. Why not fully embrace your newly found "logic". And dont forget to show your peeps your newly found goldmine.
Its strange init? undecided.

The thing that tells you right from wrong, has it been scientifically proven with the popular "humanist" belief that "morality is subjective" . Did humanity reach a concensus to determine right from wrong, Where do infants learn evil, from the womb? undecided Does right has any universal guage? Why do youths prefer exhuberance and hate it when their parents demand accountability?
You're screwed right.
I see you've started your indoctrination atheism anthem. Dont worry, ive heared many others like marriage is a scam, democracy is a scam etc in a bid to get a non existent ideal environment. Its only funny that you dont think we were also indoctrinated with what you refer to as "good".

I agree that Right and wrong existed right from creation (at least, you are not an atheist who believes that conscience is as a result of a chaotic explosion) before the rise of religion.
And i keep saying religion is not the way, but God.
The existence of demons dosent justify the inexistence of the Creator, its just an excuse for men to have their way and remain unaccountable.
Maybe you should give me "rational" reasons why i should stick with one woman when i can have several sweet ladies or why i wont cheat in exams if it will make me succeed.
lol
It dont matter though, A hundred years after your death, the bible will still be consistent with the ideal human philosophy.

Call it ignorance, delusional, indoctrination or whatever.
The truth resurrected and couldnt be buried back then, What makes you think it will be buried today.
God is God.

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Re: The Crusades: Christianity's Violent Past by Chizzled06(m): 2:37pm On Dec 31, 2015
winner01:
Its almost impossible to find a christian that hadnt doubted his belief at a time.
God be my witness, I had serious doubts at a younger age even before i knew what atheism meant. I felt reluctant to go to church, what if all these isnt real, is this power really potent.
But I bless God for his grace in directing my steps such that i didnt find solace in evil.
And its not cos you were born a christian, even born atheists target christianity, worse still muslim turned atheists too. You only got what you wanted not that christianity is bull, and now, your past still seems to haunt you. Why not fully embrace your newly found "logic". And dont forget to show your peeps your newly found goldmine.
Its strange init? undecided.

The thing that tells you right from wrong, has it been scientifically proven with the popular "humanist" belief that "morality is subjective" . Did humanity reach a concensus to determine right from wrong, Where do infants learn evil, from the womb? undecided Does right has any universal guage? Why do youths prefer exhuberance and hate it when their parents demand accountability?
You're screwed right.
I see you've started your indoctrination atheism anthem. Dont worry, ive heared many others like marriage is a scam, democracy is a scam etc in a bid to get a non existent ideal environment. Its only funny that you dont think we were also indoctrinated with what you refer to as "good".

I agree that Right and wrong existed right from creation (at least, you are not an atheist who believes that conscience is as a result of a chaotic explosion) before the rise of religion.
And i keep saying religion is not the way, but God.
The existence of demons dosent justify the inexistence of the Creator, its just an excuse for men to have their way and remain unaccountable.
Maybe you should give me "rational" reasons why i should stick with one woman when i can have several sweet ladies or why i wont cheat in exams if it will make me succeed.
lol
It dont matter though, A hundred years after your death, the bible will still be consistent with the ideal human philosophy.

Call it ignorance, delusional, indoctrination or whatever.
The truth resurrected and couldnt be buried back then, What makes you think it will be buried today.
God is God.

1. I don't believe in "creation" like your bible tells it. Evolution is true, whether you choose to believe it or not.

2. Your God is your God. And exists inside your head alone.

3. I've lived a lot better since I stopped blaming 'demons and evil spirits' for my misdeeds.

4. If you truly want to learn about if humans are born as evil beings in need of moral or religious guidance, as opposed to naturally ethical creatures corrupted by society; Then I suggest you take up a course in the Philosophy of human nature.

5. I imagine you're African. Has it occurred to you that your ancestors were living in relative harmony before the white man brought this his God along with colonialism?
Re: The Crusades: Christianity's Violent Past by Richirich713: 3:38pm On Dec 31, 2015
CoolUsername:


Eh, Hitler was definitely christian although I see why you guys want to disown him so bad.

His belt buckle and that of all the Nazis had the german words "Gott Mit Uns" which means "God With Us" on them. Darwinian texts were also banned in the country at the time.

Wrong Hitler was not christian, as I said historians are not sure what he believed.

Especially since he promoted war and murder while Jesus and his followers(the original christians) taught love and peace.

It amazing how you will criticize me for using Stalin against the Op but will not say a thing about him using the crusaders against Jesus.

Stalin persecuted religion in the soviet union and promoted atheism but when it's comes to a Atheist I guess it's no problem.

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Re: The Crusades: Christianity's Violent Past by Richirich713: 3:55pm On Dec 31, 2015
I guess when it comes to Atheists it doesn't count.

Re: The Crusades: Christianity's Violent Past by CoolUsername: 7:03pm On Dec 31, 2015
Richirich713:


Wrong Hitler was not christian, as I said historians are not sure what he believed.

Especially since he promoted war and murder while Jesus and his followers(the original christians) taught love and peace.

It amazing how you will criticize me for using Stalin against the Op but will not say a thing about him using the crusaders against Jesus.

Stalin persecuted religion in the soviet union and promoted atheism but when it's comes to a Atheist I guess it's no problem.




Hitler was definitively a christian and I'm not arguing any further.

Stalin wasn't promoting atheism, rather he was trying to make people view him as the supreme deity.

Also, your logic of Hitler not being a christian because he was wicked is very flawed.
Re: The Crusades: Christianity's Violent Past by BETATRON(m): 7:07pm On Dec 31, 2015
CoolUsername:




Also, your logic of Hitler not being a christian because he was wicked is very flawed.
so flawed---keeping in mind that a fellow nazi army letter became a pope---benedict xvi
Re: The Crusades: Christianity's Violent Past by Ubenedictus(m): 3:58am On Jan 01, 2016
Chizzled06:


If you view the crusades as 'just war', why do you think the Pope needed to apologize?
because, no matter how just the intention, there are excesses in wars! War carries an unwholesome bagage called innocent casualties an unrully soldiers committing attrocities. These are issues that christians are sorry 4.
Re: The Crusades: Christianity's Violent Past by Richirich713: 6:02am On Jan 01, 2016
CoolUsername:


Hitler was definitively a christian and I'm not arguing any further.

Read what the experts(historians) say @wiki

Religious views of Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ps the only reason I'm arguing about this, is be cuz most historians are unsure about his beliefs.
Also evens if Hitler was the pope, it still wouldn't mean anything about Jesus teachings.

Yes Pastors have done many evil things, but still their actions can't be used against Christ teachings since they are directly disobeying him.

Being a christian means follower of Christ, not a follower of someone else 1000s of years after him.

CoolUsername:


Stalin wasn't promoting atheism, rather he was trying to make people view him as the supreme deity.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Soviet_Union

"These persecutions were meant to assist the ultimate socialist goal of eliminating religion. From 1932 to 1937 Joseph Stalin declared the 'five-year plans of atheism' and the LMG was charged with completely eliminating all religious expression in the country".


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Soviet_Union

CoolUsername:


Also, your logic of Hitler not being a christian because he was wicked is very flawed.

Ur understanding of what a "christian" is, is very flawed guy.

Was Hitler Christ-Like or a follower of jesus teachings?

I hope u know just saying "I'm a christian" doesn't make u automatically a christian. There are rules when someone joins a team, breaking them gets u kick out.

If I said "I'm a muslim", but instead of believing Allah is God, I believe Yahweh is.

Does that make me a Muslim? Even tho I'm not even following the rules that is essential to me being a muslim.

1 Like

Re: The Crusades: Christianity's Violent Past by Chizzled06(m): 7:49am On Jan 01, 2016
Ubenedictus:
because, no matter how just the intention, there are excesses in wars! War carries an unwholesome bagage called innocent casualties an unrully soldiers committing attrocities. These are issues that christians are sorry 4.

I'm struggling to find sense in what you're saying. They went there with the intention to kill people of other faith. And they did just that. Muslims, Jews, Orthodox Christians murdered. It was evil. Despicable.

If you're so certain the Crusades were "justified". Well guess what? The 'holy land' currently inhabited by Muslims and Jews. Why don't you gather your army and join in the crimes of people you're struggling so hard to defend.

You're no different from "holy war" jihadists - Emancipation of the darkness of religious delusion in its worst form.

1 Like

Re: The Crusades: Christianity's Violent Past by Ubenedictus(m): 11:04pm On Jan 02, 2016
Chizzled06:



So why did the Christian crusaders kill Jews during their invasions?
excesses of war.
Re: The Crusades: Christianity's Violent Past by Ubenedictus(m): 11:27pm On Jan 02, 2016
stonemasonn:
The crusade was not defensive, it was a battle of supremacy between the western church in Rome which controls the whole of Europe and the eastern church in Constantinople which controls the entire middle east and Jerusalem. The Inquisition was a ploy by the Roman church to exterminate all atheists, free thinkers and any other non-conformists. Over one billion people including Jews, Muslims, Christians were killed under the watch of the pope.
it was actually the eastern constantinople who asked the pope for the crusades. The first crusade was called because the east requested it not because of a battle of supremacy rome and constantinople.
Re: The Crusades: Christianity's Violent Past by Ubenedictus(m): 11:56pm On Jan 02, 2016
Chizzled06:


I'm struggling to find sense in what you're saying. They went there with the intention to kill people of other faith. And they did just that. Muslims, Jews, Orthodox Christians murdered. It was evil. Despicable.

If you're so certain the Crusades were "justified". Well guess what? The 'holy land' currently inhabited by Muslims and Jews. Why don't you gather your army and join in the crimes of people you're struggling so hard to defend.

You're no different from "holy war" jihadists - Emancipation of the darkness of religious delusion in its worst form.
You gat to put your thinking cap on.

1. What constitutes a just war are the intentions of the war, you may take your time and study the just war theory as propounded by St Thomas of Aquinas. A just reason to take arms is to defend the oppressed against an unjust agressor. In this case the Islamic empire was the unjust oppressor occupying a soveign soil, placing its people under servitude while discriminating against them with it Islamic law, not to talk of acts of intoleration against Christians both pilgrims and natives like the issue of the holy sepucher. Thus the war was for all intent just, the pope had all the right reasons to call a crusade. Even at that wars-even just wars- come with colateral damage, unwanted casualty and atrocities of all sorts, the crusade had these and for such occurances a Christian will gladly apologise. That doesn distract from d fact that the crusades were called for a just reason, we can't say the same for the jihad.

2. The holy land has both Jew, Muslims, Christians and even atheist, they are ruled by a government of their choosing that respects their rights without discriminating against those who believe differently or burn their worship place, even Pligrims are allowed access and protection, their is no just reason for me to "gather an army" as you say to attack, that wouldnt be just. It seems you have managed to confuse issues in your mind.
Re: The Crusades: Christianity's Violent Past by Papist: 2:42pm On Jan 03, 2016
plaetton:


Rubbish.

Did the inhabitants of the so-called holy land, the Jews, ever cried that they needed rescue?

Pope urban was the first religious head to ever justify a holy war, promising soldiers forgiveness and eternal bliss if they died in battle.

How about the destruction of Constantinople,.. Was that also a just war to defend what ..?

Funny that first European monarch to be crowned King of Jerusalem achieved that feet without spilling a single moslem or Jewish blood. He achieved it by simple negotiations with the khalifs of Jerusalem.
Ah so you don't know that the Holy Land was majority Christian at the time of the crusades and that it was part of the Byzantine Empire whose emperor called for help from the Latins? You also don't know that the crusaders who destroyed Constantinople were all excommunicated by the Pope?
Re: The Crusades: Christianity's Violent Past by Papist: 2:59pm On Jan 03, 2016
Chizzled06:


1. I am not a Muslim

2. The inquisitions began in attempt to conquer sectarianism by the church. Christians killed Christians for proclamations against the Catholic doctrine. Anyone who claimed there was no God was burned at the stake. Hardly any mention of Islam.

3. You've clearly gotten your "facts" from some Christian extremist blogs. Read a book
You have also clearly bought into much of the secular propaganda about the inquisitions. You know the secular agenda of promoting the idea that Christianity is a violent religion just like, if not worse than Islam. I suggest you find unbiased real scholarly work, not internet postings and timelines.
Re: The Crusades: Christianity's Violent Past by Papist: 3:16pm On Jan 03, 2016
Chizzled06:


You don't seem to understand that the crusaders killed Jews, and Christians from other sects during the Crusades. This wasn't just Christianity vs Islam. Please try to educate yourself.
You really don't believe that the crusades were Christianity vs Islam? Then listen to the words of Pope Urban II while calling for the first crusade. No political correctness in this speech:

" Oh, race of Franks, race from across the
mountains, race chosen and beloved by
God as shines forth in very many of your
works set apart from all nations by the
situation of your country, as well as by
your catholic faith and the honor of the
holy church! To you our discourse is
addressed and for you our exhortation is
intended. We wish you to know what a
grievous cause has led us to Your
country, what peril threatening you and all
the faithful has brought us.
From the confines of Jerusalem and the
city of Constantinople a horrible tale has
gone forth and very frequently has been
brought to our ears, namely, that a race
from the kingdom of the Persians, an
accursed race, a race utterly alienated
from God, a generation forsooth which
has not directed its heart and has not
entrusted its spirit to God, has invaded
the lands of those Christians and has
depopulated them by the sword, pillage
and fire; it has led away a part of the
captives into its own country, and a part
it has destroyed by cruel tortures; it has
either entirely destroyed the churches of
God or appropriated them for the rites of
its own religion. They destroy the altars,
after having defiled them with their
uncleanness. They circumcise the
Christians, and the blood of the
circumcision they either spread upon the
altars or pour into the vases of the
baptismal font. When they wish to torture
people by a base death, they perforate
their navels, and dragging forth the
extremity of the intestines, bind it to a
stake; then with flogging they lead the
victim around until the viscera having
gushed forth the victim falls prostrate
upon the ground. Others they bind to a
post and pierce with arrows. Others they
compel to extend their necks and then,
attacking them with naked swords,
attempt to cut through the neck with a
single blow. What shall I say of the
abominable rape of the women? To speak
of it is worse than to be silent. The
kingdom of the Greeks is now
dismembered by them and deprived of
territory so vast in extent that it cannot be
traversed in a march of two months. On
whom therefore is the labor of avenging
these wrongs and of recovering this
territory incumbent, if not upon you? You,
upon whom above other nations God has
conferred remarkable glory in arms, great
courage, bodily activity, and strength to
humble the hairy scalp of those who
resist you.
Let the deeds of your ancestors move you
and incite your minds to manly
achievements; the glory and greatness of
king Charles the Great, and of his son
Louis, and of your other kings, who have
destroyed the kingdoms of the pagans,
and have extended in these lands the
territory of the holy church. Let the holy
sepulcher of the Lord our Savior, which is
possessed by unclean nations, especially
incite you, and the holy places which are
now treated with ignominy and
irreverently polluted with their filthiness.
Oh, most valiant soldiers and
descendants of invincible ancestors, be
not degenerate, but recall the valor of
your progenitors."
Re: The Crusades: Christianity's Violent Past by Papist: 3:21pm On Jan 03, 2016
stonemasonn:
The crusade was not defensive, it was a battle of supremacy between the western church in Rome which controls the whole of Europe and the eastern church in Constantinople which controls the entire middle east and Jerusalem. The Inquisition was a ploy by the Roman church to exterminate all atheists, free thinkers and any other non-conformists. Over one billion people including Jews, Muslims, Christians were killed under the watch of the pope.
So many ignorant comments here. Over 1 billion?! Good grief. What was the total world population in, say 1800 AD sir?

1 Like

Re: The Crusades: Christianity's Violent Past by Chizzled06(m): 9:04pm On Jan 03, 2016
Ubenedictus:

You gat to put your thinking cap on.

1. What constitutes a just war are the intentions of the war, you may take your time and study the just war theory as propounded by St Thomas of Aquinas. A just reason to take arms is to defend the oppressed against an unjust agressor. In this case the Islamic empire was the unjust oppressor occupying a soveign soil, placing its people under servitude while discriminating against them with it Islamic law, not to talk of acts of intoleration against Christians both pilgrims and natives like the issue of the holy sepucher. Thus the war was for all intent just, the pope had all the right reasons to call a crusade. Even at that wars-even just wars- come with colateral damage, unwanted casualty and atrocities of all sorts, the crusade had these and for such occurances a Christian will gladly apologise. That doesn distract from d fact that the crusades were called for a just reason, we can't say the same for the jihad.

2. The holy land has both Jew, Muslims, Christians and even atheist, they are ruled by a government of their choosing that respects their rights without discriminating against those who believe differently or burn their worship place, even Pligrims are allowed access and protection, their is no just reason for me to "gather an army" as you say to attack, that wouldnt be just. It seems you have managed to confuse issues in your mind.

You need a course in History. Any time Christians conquered the Holy Land, they allowed only people of similar faith into the land. Only Muslims allowed Jews and people of other faith live with them. The Muslims eventually drove out the Crusaders. That's the reason any diversity exists there today.

You're blinded by your faith. These guys bleeped up big time in the name of Christ. The Pope has apologised profusely for it. "Never again", he said.

Move on and quit trying to defend atrocities.
Re: The Crusades: Christianity's Violent Past by Chizzled06(m): 9:06pm On Jan 03, 2016
Papist:

You have also clearly bought into much of the secular propaganda about the inquisitions. You know the secular agenda of promoting the idea that Christianity is a violent religion just like, if not worse than Islam. I suggest you find unbiased real scholarly work, not internet postings and timelines.

What exactly are you trying to say? The Inquisition never happened?
Re: The Crusades: Christianity's Violent Past by Chizzled06(m): 9:10pm On Jan 03, 2016
Papist:

You really don't believe that the crusades were Christianity vs Islam? Then listen to the words of Pope Urban II while calling for the first crusade. No political correctness in this speech:
"

He forgot to tell his Crusaders then, because they killed countless Jews and Orthodox Christians alike.
Re: The Crusades: Christianity's Violent Past by Ubenedictus(m): 2:10pm On Jan 17, 2016
Chizzled06:


You need a course in History. Any time Christians conquered the Holy Land, they allowed only people of similar faith into the land. Only Muslims allowed Jews and people of other faith live with them. The Muslims eventually drove out the Crusaders. That's the reason any diversity exists there today.

You're blinded by your faith. These guys bleeped up big time in the name of Christ. The Pope has apologised profusely for it. "Never again", he said.

Move on and quit trying to defend atrocities.
HAHA, interesting story. now my question to u, were there just reasons to call a crusade?

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