Now Bankrupt Evander Holyfield Paid His Tithes But Forgot About His Mortage - Religion (3) - Nairaland
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| Re: Now Bankrupt Evander Holyfield Paid His Tithes But Forgot About His Mortage by Tonyet1(m): 11:15am On Jun 24, 2009 |
JeromeK: Thanks Bro, but i aint a pastor but a student of the gospel  JeromeK: My dearest friend, Tithe means 1/10th of one's possession, because Bible stated Abraham as paying one tenth doesnt mean he never tithe, (tithe is tenthing and tenthing is tithe) Refer to this passage:
JeromeK: Bro, do you know that the bible referred to the church as the "pillar of truth"(1tim.3:15) with every part as a member of the body which is christ (1cor.)? meaning it is an institution, and as such required administrative setup, now ask yourself , what constitutes an institution - General head - Administrative heads - Departmental heads - members or subs do you recall this passage in the bible? Ephesians 4:11-12 - this means that everyone as christians have a unique placing in the church which is the institution of christ here on earth and as such the levitical order as it was in the old testament still stands in the new testament, since the old was a shadow of things to come, - And in your quote that we are all priests and Jesus the high priest, check that passage and you'll observe that the writter of Hebrew was teaching of man's relationship with God (our priesthood order stands), as we also have man's relationship with man(which is where the levitical order stands) JeromeK: you are very wrong brother!, if every one in the body of christ is allowed to do everything, then where is the place of orderliness and decency Paul admonished us of? (1cor.14:40), read and understand why bible said the OT is the shadow of the NT, and what this implies JeromeK: Bro can u answer this question for me and i'll be pleased you just answered yourself? - who originated the practise of DEACONS? Christ or the early Apostles? JeromeK: Bro, titheing is not seen as a command in the NT, but that aint mean it was abolished, it is for spiritual people. if you dont fast or got baptised, you can still enter into heaven, yes, but those who wants to attain a level in relationship with God will fast, so my brother it is all about decision, hunger and thirst. recall that babes drink milk, while adults eat hard meat, have you asked yourself what are the MILK and the HARD MEAT in xtianity. JeromeK: - now you are talking, thanks for that wisdom, i have always said it here, it is not compulsory. Bravo on that! JeromeK: you too bro! |
| Re: Now Bankrupt Evander Holyfield Paid His Tithes But Forgot About His Mortage by JeromeK: 1:09pm On Jun 24, 2009 |
Mr. T, tonye-t: At first we merely differed in opinion, now we are parting ways to a degree. Your trajectory of Pillar hence body, hence institution is not how I see things, or I see as supported by scripture. 1. You rightly call the church a body and thern - IMHO - designate it an institution. No sir! The Church of Christ is a "body" a "family" and can be likened or compared to such. To institutionalise it is to make it in the image of men and to fill it with human constructs. I won't even belabour the point. - this means that everyone as christians have a unique placing in the church which is the institution of christ here on earth and as such the levitical order as it was in the old testament still stands in the new testament, since the old was a shadow of things to come, The church as a gathering of believers should have structure, as any uncoorinated gathering will be chaotic and potentially pointless. But church meetings and operation is not the fullness of or the Christian experience or the totality of Christian life. Please read on in the chapter of Ephesians you quoted. All the functioning of church is for one thing. How is that one thing obtained? And what happens when that one thing happens? Ephesians 4:13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ-- 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. - And in your quote that we are all priests and Jesus the high priest, check that passage and you'll observe that the writter of Hebrew was teaching of man's relationship with God (our priesthood order stands), as we also have man's relationship with man(which is where the levitical order stands) Mans relationship with man (or God) does not demand a clergy/laity spilt or an intermediary priestly role. The Leitical priesthood was "law" based, said law now done away with. The re-institution od redundant OT types into NT Christianity is tragically wrong and warps the grace of God in Christ Jesus. Mans relationship with man - whatever that is - flows out of his relationship with God. you are very wrong brother!, if every one in the body of christ is allowed to do everything, then where is the place of orderliness and decency Paul admonished us of? (1cor.14:40), read and understand why bible said the OT is the shadow of the NT, and what this implies I never alluded to a do everything. God is sovereign. He can do whatever, using whoever, whenever. Forced man-made structures force the Spirit out of body life. Bro can u answer this question for me and i'll be pleased you just answered yourself? - who originated the practise of DEACONS? Christ or the early Apostles?The Apostles. Is Christian experience or a walk with God dependent on or diminished in the absence of a deaconate? Bro, titheing is not seen as a command in the NT, but that aint mean it was abolished, it is for spiritual people. if you dont fast or got baptised, you can still enter into heaven, yes, but those who wants to attain a level in relationship with God will fast, so my brother it is all about decision, hunger and thirst. recall that babes drink milk, while adults eat hard meat, have you asked yourself what are the MILK and the HARD MEAT in xtianity. Ah, the "its spiritual" ploy. Your talk of "types" misses the move to "heartfelt giving" for NT Christians. Its not spiritual, its merely religious. Fasting and baptism in or of themselves will not make yuo more spiritual or closer to God. |
| Re: Now Bankrupt Evander Holyfield Paid His Tithes But Forgot About His Mortage by ogajim(m): 1:11pm On Jun 24, 2009 |
This is for the pimps and their defenders: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ligxTfLDXnI No word from Debosky, Abram or Abraham?  |
| Re: Now Bankrupt Evander Holyfield Paid His Tithes But Forgot About His Mortage by Tonyet1(m): 4:38pm On Jun 24, 2009 |
We arent here to get a winner but to learn isnt it?good, not quoting me on tithing i assume you now know that tenthing means tithing, so because abraham tithed, it means it never began with the law, so it should not die with the law. Good, now back to your comments At first we merely differed in opinion, now we are parting ways to a degree. Your trajectory of Pillar hence body, hence institution is not how I see things, or I see as supported by scripture. Brother, pls lets try here not to mix up illustrations, you tend to be to used to clinche's, i will prefer you search the dictionary for better definition of terms before you object Refer to this definition or better still search the internet yourself ok? What is an Institution? The church as a gathering of believers should have structure, as any uncoorinated gathering will be chaotic and potentially pointless - Am glad you know that, now You can never remove the church from being an institute because a church simply requires people to run it, recall i have never said that the church is a building but an institute, now if funds and levies are not asked, how on earth do you want this people(institution) to run the administration and even pay bills? - Where should they raise moneys for outreaches especially for those one's who would want to do it right, and buy some of the hi-tech equipments you and I dance songs and worship from, and even these clergies where do you expect them to meet up with some family responsibilties lts be sincere and unbiased in this one (if it were you and i), the problem is that most xtians start becoming envious and greedy when you see this MOGs living clean. - If they were on rags and old dresses, it is the same xtians and critics that will abuse them of looking too wretched, take deeper life ministries for example.  no ill feelings pls (apologies!)Yes the church is a body of Christ, but then the word “body” is broader than want you might be thinking Mans relationship with man (or God) does not demand a clergy/laity spilt or an intermediary priestly role Goosh, Bro your posts always tends me to ask you questions, why is this so?maybe its because you dont seem to check terms before you use them, i ask again, Who is a clergy?cler·gy [klúrjee] Read Eph.4:11 - Ephesians 4:11 my friend i am pleased to let you know that all the above listed are all clergies in the body of christ, at least even the bible classified them as chosen for responsibilities, - Now for those who seem to totally dedicate themselves to this service where do you expect them to survive from i ask you? I never alluded to a do everything. God is sovereign. He can do whatever, using whoever, whenever. Forced man-made structures force the Spirit out of body life. God does not head the church, Christ does, and so he does the chosing, and at least the scriptures tells you and I that he gave His Holy spirit to give us unique responsibilities, so that one could be the hand, another the leg while yet another the neck and so on (refer to 1cor.12:14-25), and let me explain to you that the man-made structure of appointing DEACONS by the early apostles did not force the spirit out, rather it increased the domains of the spirit, STEVENS LIFE AND DEATH WILL EXPLAIN THAT.
i asked the question so that you will know that the church has it as a responsibility to appoint a new office in the institution of the church so as to foster the work of Christ, remember Christ said occupy till i come, what will you say about that, hope you aint going to give me shallow answers like evangelism and individual living  -And also to your last comment, i have this to say: - In christianity, there are level of grace, hence levels of fxns, and this levels are what one can call spirituality, not everyone fxns on the same level, even bible says something like "let they that are strong, strengthen the weak" - you can walk up and ask someone what the benefits of some certain spiritual practices are, and they will just laugh at you in their stupidity, if fasting for instance doesnt connote spiritual strength, then how come even christ said "some certain problems required fasting", how come one who is born again can castout demons and yet another fret at just a threat of the name? SPIRITUAL LEVEL MY BROTHER, and so is FIRE BAPTISM, TITHEING and other XTIAN PRACTISES God bless you |
| Re: Now Bankrupt Evander Holyfield Paid His Tithes But Forgot About His Mortage by JeromeK: 6:16pm On Jun 24, 2009 |
Mr. T, tonye-t: Absolutely. We are merely sharing opinions. Discussing. My intent is not to force my position on you in any way. So winning or losing does not come into it. Now to yours; Am glad you know that, now You can never remove the church from being an institute because a church simply requires people to run it, recall i have never said that the church is a building but an institute, now if funds and levies are not asked, how on earth do you want this people(institution) to run the administration and even pay bills? Noting but not copying - or disputing - your definition of institution, I'll advance straight to your articulation of same. Here is the thinkng - logical as it may sound - that has seen the "church" become the "Institutionalised church" two totally seperate, distinct and unrelated creations. The one born of God in Christ, and the other man-made. The body of Christ does not need money to "run", or to "exist". Money is only for one thing to care for members of the body. Running and administration speaks of salaries, programs, expenses etc. Thats "IC" not "OC" - original church. Note your emphasis on things - admin and bills - as opposed to people. Where should they raise moneys for outreaches especially for those one's who would want to do it right, and buy some of the hi-tech equipments you and I dance songs and worship from, and even these clergies where do you expect them to meet up with some family responsibilties lts be sincere and unbiased in this one (if it were you and i), the problem is that most xtians start becoming envious and greedy when you see this MOGs living clean I touched on this above. But lets refer to the bible. Where in scripture did money ever have to move to make converts? Yet the Lord (not man and his institutions or intellectual smarts) added to the church daily. There is no seperate and distinct clergy and hence no need for salaries. Eldership is voluntary and plural to share the burden. Elders recieve assistance in the same way as any other - Share and share alike and none will have any need. Elders are supposed to have a professional life like all others, as is prescribed scripturally. Envy? MOGS?? - If they were on rags and old dresses, it is the same xtians and critics that will abuse them of looking too wretched, take deeper life ministries for example. no ill feelings pls (apologies!) Again, this is a logical outworking of your emphasis on institutionalising the church and distinguishing a clergy. Does not exist for me as I do neither. All Christians should be cared for by the mutually shared resources of all. Yes the church is a body of Christ, but then the word “body” is broader than want you might be thinking I dasagree, my point is that it does not fit the template you are forcing it into. In the body of Christ, are some ordained and some not? What is the spiritual implication of this ordination? What is the difference between the ordained and non-ordained? Does it limit or restrict Gods ability to work in someone? Does it in any way impact one's relationship or walk with God? my friend i am pleased to let you know that all the above listed are all clergies in the body of christ, at least even the bible classified them as chosen for responsibilities, Where in the scripture is the word clergy/clergies? These roles are functional. They speak of respnsibility and gifting, not corporate roles. I asked previously, what is the end result of these functions meant to effect in the church or individual christians? They work to survive like everyone else. With the possible exception of missionary work, there is no requirement for full-time ministry. It's a calling, not a vocation or career. That's what the "institutional template gets you. God does not head the church, Christ does, and so he does the chosing, and at least the scriptures tells you and I that he gave His Holy spirit to give us unique responsibilities, so that one could be the hand, another the leg while yet another the neck and so on (refer to 1cor.12:14-25), and let me explain to you that the man-made structure of appointing DEACONS by the early apostles did not force the spirit out, rather it increased the domains of the spirit, STEVENS LIFE AND DEATH WILL EXPLAIN THAT. Does this make it an institution or a corporation? Does this mean money is to be raised/levied to fund it? There was a need for deacons so the apostles could focus on the essentials. If deacons are required appoint them. Indeed appoint them if there are not required - just in case! But a functioning congregation only requires elders and deacons at most. A simple structure. Your idea runs way beyond this, is unecessary and forces way to many constructs on to body life. Stephens life and death had nothing to do with, neither was it predicated on his being appointed a deacon. Was Stephen martyed while managing welfare distributions or because he was a deacon? Ah, ah! i asked the question so that you will know that the church has it as a responsibility to appoint a new office in the institution of the church so as to foster the work of Christ, remember Christ said occupy till i come, what will you say about that, hope you aint going to give me shallow answers like evangelism and individual living Again I see error in thinking of this type. Where does the work of Christ require "offices" in order to be fostered? So occupy till I come means build loarge institutions or corporations? I get it! Hence the Jets, auditoria and and all the other religious/institutional paraphenalia that obtains today. Perhaps if I am opportuned, I will post more on how assuming that the structural/administrative aspect of body life is of the utmost import and pretty much the sum of the Christian experience is both an error and by design, and will serve to compromise the body. The church and it's structure/administration, is a part of christian life, an aspect of the experience, but not as some would presume the fullness of it. It's only meant to articulate how believers come together - when they do. Many mistakenly feel that all aspects of the Christian experience are articulated, regulated and lived out through "church". Hence much of what obtains today. Later. J |
| Re: Now Bankrupt Evander Holyfield Paid His Tithes But Forgot About His Mortage by ogajim(m): 6:34pm On Jun 24, 2009 |
I want to see where the Bible said to forget your children and pay "tithe"  I believe this thread is about Evander and his inability to support his kids but feel it absolutely necessary to pay "tithe" to a "church/ministry" Yes we have to support the "clergy" where they exist but it doesn't have to be a % of one's income, indoctrination is not always the best thing that happens to folks sometimes because it beclouds their sense of judgment most times and any questions are viewed as an "attack" by the "enemy". If "tithe" was that important to Jesus Christ, he would not have indicated that there were "weightier matters of the law" like love for one another, compassion, helping the poor and widows, etc. "Where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there" means I can decide tomorrow to worship in a house fellowship if that serves my spiritual quest and doesn't leave me stagnant. Repeating the same old lame lines doesn't further the discourse one bit so get a grip folks before you support an abomination because Christ laid out our responsibilities to our parents, wife and kids. I don't see how taking money from the poor, flying private jets all over the place, nice suits, big buildings, etc win more souls for Christ, the kingdom of God is not a numbers game unless you're working for the other side and " He that hath ears to hear, let him hear"  |
| Re: Now Bankrupt Evander Holyfield Paid His Tithes But Forgot About His Mortage by Tonyet1(m): 1:25pm On Jun 25, 2009 |
@Jeromek, Good morning back to our discussion Here is the thinkng - logical as it may sound - that has seen the "church" become the "Institutionalised church" two totally seperate, distinct and unrelated creations. The one born of God in Christ, and the other man-made. - I still stand on my point that the church is an institution, and an institution doesnt necessarily mean a building but a STRUTURE, structure i mean is on how members should be cordinated and assigned roles, yes every one can have a unique calling and hence used by God for specific purposes, but then i say, someone has got to feed them, tend them and this is usually from a FIGURE HEAD who is assumed as more spiritually matured, recall Jesus saying to Peter after his ressurrection to FEED THE SHEEP, TEND THE SHEEP and FEED THE LAMBS, meaning there must be a Herdman(who takes orders from the Shepherd)and as such can provide feed and shelter and tends for the sheep with this i say that a FIGURATIVE HEAD is needed after the order of CHRIST (the HEAD), who takes up a similar role as the LEVITES of the OT were called to do, after the order of AARON (the ordained HIGH PRIEST)- The body of Christ does not need money to "run", or to "exist". Money is only for one thing to care for members of the body. Running and administration speaks of salaries, programs, expenses etc. Thats "IC" not "OC" - original church. Note your emphasis on things - admin and bills - as opposed to people - Someone reading your comment may think i said, money is needed for a church to exist, pls i never and will never say so, but you saying the body of christ does not need money to run is a total error, what you should ask yourself is what is the money to be used for? and i think thats what you attested to on your post quoted above. recall Bible is One and if so, then what did Eccle.10:19 said of moneys? - And again what i wish to say is that, because money and its management have been abused in the later church doesnt mean its introduction to the church running was wrong!, Act.4:32, and chpt.5. MONEY bible says is a DEFENSE, pls expantiate on this. There is no seperate and distinct clergy and hence no need for salaries. Eldership is voluntary and plural to share the burden. Elders recieve assistance in the same way as any other - Share and share alike and none will have any need. Elders are supposed to have a professional life like all others, as is prescribed scripturally. Envy? MOGS?? - But no one has said there is any seperate clergy, but rather seperate calling. and even if i say there is a seperate clergy i dont think am wring in any way, because PETER was the head of the eraly church (jews) as PAUL was the head of the early church (gentiles) and TIMOTHY the first bishop (which means senior xtian cleric). and again no one has said any thing like salaries i dont know where you coiled that from, but in essense a sort of welfare can be given to them, read Pauls admonishion to Timothy in 1tim, you'll understand that a church system should contain just about the same structure as the levitical order of the OT but this time it should be of Christ Jesus as the HIGH PRIEST. - MOGs and envy wasnt at you brother, pls read it again, at least you and I know that a lot of the attacks on our MOGs are simply born out of this reason.  
But they are or aint they? i dont know where you are coming from  In the body of Christ, are some ordained and some not? What is the spiritual implication of this ordination? What is the difference between the ordained and non-ordained? Does it limit or restrict Gods ability to work in someone? Does it in any way impact one's relationship or walk with God? - Are some ordained and some not, answer i'll say is a very big YES some are ordained and others not, recall that there is a clear difference btw ordination and calling, Timothy was called into service with Christ and yet also HE WAS ORDAINED THE 1ST BISHOP by PAUL, steven and co were called into the service of christ with callings and yet also STEVEN AND CO WERE ORDAINED DEACONS and so on. -What is the spiritual implication of this ordination? the answer is simple, for cordination, SHEPHERDS are chosen to tend SHEEP. and also to nuture these SHEEP. ok! - There difference i'll say is to help the continuity of the course of Christ, if youngs ones dont learn from matured one's, how would they know what followership in Christ is all about, even Paul followed b4 being followed. - does it limit God's ability or restrict God to work in someone? answer is no, rather it builds the body. do you know that christ is not the body (church)? but the head of the church - does it impair our relationship with God? my answer is N O , NO, relationship with God is a different Topic all together, we can discuss better on that on a new thread. Where in the scripture is the word clergy/clergies? where in the bible is your name and surname mentioned,but yet dont you look in there and find everything about yourself? na wa o , i thought i gave you the definition of the word "CLERGY" pls brother read the definition better.pls this aint a question beloved brother. They work to survive like everyone else. With the possible exception of missionary work, there is no requirement for full-time ministry. It's a calling, not a vocation or career. That's what the "institutional template gets you. - partially true partially not true, Paul noted that he worked because he wanted to, else said he ,that he would have survived from their willful contributions. read 1corinthinas again. - Brother, my too i even marvel at where the later got that idea of full-time and part-time ministry, i dont know, well what can one say, the name itself even pops a laughter to me here . i agree with you on that!The church and it's structure/administration, is a part of christian life, an aspect of the experience, but not as some would presume the fullness of it. It's only meant to articulate how believers come together - when they do. Many mistakenly feel that all aspects of the Christian experience are articulated, regulated and lived out through "church". Hence much of what obtains today. Now you are talking Sir! thats true bro, very true! later Brother! |
| Re: Now Bankrupt Evander Holyfield Paid His Tithes But Forgot About His Mortage by JeromeK: 12:54am On Jun 26, 2009 |
Mr. T, tonye-t: - No sir, the church is not an institution. It's a gathering, a body a family - When members of the body come together its "church". There should be order and a simple structure is outlined if required. - "FIGURE HEAD"? Sir you keep expanding this lexicon you have built up around your institutional approach. Please go back to source. - It's a fallacy to think that spiritual maturity or the development of faith comes from shadowing or being around "MOGs" - That sir is "Religious Instruction". Spiritual maturity and deepening faith come from the direct relationship with Him. - You can share walks and experiences, but the experience must be undegone and the path walked individually and personally. - HERDMAN again? Sir this is no longer humourous - A Herdman "taking orders" from a Shepherd?? That is nothing shy of a "mediatory priesthood". Done away with - Its sounds good and oh so very spiritual but it's at best seriously misled. - The door is open, the way clear. This type of doctrine prevents men entering in. You know what i mean. with this i say that a FIGURATIVE HEAD is needed after the order of CHRIST (the HEAD), who takes up a similar role as the LEVITES of the OT were called to do, after the order of AARON (the ordained HIGH PRIEST)- Briefly - utter nonsense. Apologies, but thats my take. - Someone reading your comment may think i said, money is needed for a church to exist, pls i never and will never say so, but you saying the body of christ does not need money to run is a total error, what you should ask yourself is what is the money to be used for? and i think thats what you attested to on your post quoted above. recall Bible is One and if so, then what did Eccle.10:19 said of moneys? I will state it clearly. You have not stated the church needs money to exist, but you have clearly said the church needs money to function. Right and wrong. the church does not need money to be the church. Money in the church is used to address real physical/bodily needs, end of story. With or without money, the church will exist, function and flourish. take that to the bank! He will build His church. naira and kobo not required. Please make more of your quoting Eccl 10:19 - And again what i wish to say is that, because money and its management have been abused in the later church doesnt mean its introduction to the church running was wrong!, Act.4:32, and chpt.5. MONEY bible says is a DEFENSE, pls expantiate on this. Again a dilenma unknown to me and when you create for yourself when you institutionalise church and rightly - but spiritually wrongly - talk of the necessary funding that institutions - but not the church - require. The bible also says money/riches will not save in the day of destruction. Permit me to make an observation - The exaggeration of "church" (and "pastors" and "ministrty" in christian life, the overemphasis on the practicalities and minor aspects, the focus on the human dimension is one of the tragedies of contempary christianity and reduces the only true faith to a mere religion.- But no one has said there is any seperate clergy, but rather seperate calling. and even if i say there is a seperate clergy i dont think am wring in any way, because PETER was the head of the eraly church (jews) as PAUL was the head of the early church (gentiles) and TIMOTHY the first bishop (which means senior xtian cleric). and again no one has said any thing like salaries i dont know where you coiled that from, but in essense a sort of welfare can be given to them, read Pauls admonishion to Timothy in 1tim, you'll understand that a church system should contain just about the same structure as the levitical order of the OT but this time it should be of Christ Jesus as the HIGH PRIEST Please the practical outworking of the Clerigy as you have defined it is distinct, seperate and specially ordained. Calling and anointing is of God, ordination of men. it what always ruins faith men and their traditions and commandments. Your takes on Peter and Paul are just off the wall. Peter and Paul were both Apostles, Charged by the Lord with 1. Promulgating the gospel and mapping the church blueprint for the early believers. Note they wer in the plural and none had seniority over any other. They were sent to different constituents and obviously looked up to and looked to for initial instruction, but they were not heads of churches. To wit; 1. James was as highly respected - if not more so - than Peter in the church at Jerusalem. 2. Paul was an Apostle promulgating and mapping as outlined above. he never noted himself as head of anything. 3. Timorthy was a bishop/an elder/a shepherd. A bishop does not denote a clerical hierarchy, although some wouldlove it to be so. 4. Paul exhorted Timothy to "raise elders/bishops/presbyters/shepherds in all the churches. Once in place churches are self running. 5. There is no pyramid structure of churches or of clergy. it's purely man-made 6. I have said there is welfare - of needs - for elders and even preferential, but it is till needs based. 7. I can only see error in your forcing OT types into NT Christianity. Enough said. n to Timothy in 1tim, you'll understand that a church system should contain just about the same structure as the levitical order of the OT but this time it should be of Christ Jesus as the HIGH PRIEST. MOGs and envy wasnt at you brother, pls read it again, at least you and I know that a lot of the attacks on our MOGs are simply born out of this reason. The notion of MOGGERY and any attendant concerns or questions are not pertinent to me. I don't subscribe to such. I am anything but envious. And I mean that more than you probably realise. But they are or aint they? i dont know where you are coming from Tithing is not mutual sharing. Neither are cajoled offering, nor manipulated sowing solicitations. "All things in common" it says in acts. Show me someone or somewhere that this is preached. - Are some ordained and some not, answer i'll say is a very big YES some are ordained and others not, recall that there is a clear difference btw ordination and calling, Timothy was called into service with Christ and yet also HE WAS ORDAINED THE 1ST BISHOP by PAUL, steven and co were called into the service of christ with callings and yet also STEVEN AND CO WERE ORDAINED DEACONS and so on. Show me an example of ordination different or seperate to calling in the NT. Is a church cleaner or usher ordained? No it's merely a functional role. -What is the spiritual implication of this ordination? the answer is simple, for cordination, SHEPHERDS are chosen to tend SHEEP. and also to nuture these SHEEP. ok! No. It's purely functional and any believer that desires and is sutable can carry out that function. - There difference i'll say is to help the continuity of the course of Christ, if youngs ones dont learn from matured one's, how would they know what followership in Christ is all about, even Paul followed b4 being followed. Its a lie - Fellowship with Christ is learned by fellowshipping with Christ. That is the essence and core of Christian fellowship, with the Father and the Son. Fellowshhip with man can only be a sharing of experience not the actual experience. By emphasising fellowship with man and usually to a degree that the true fellowship is ignored, you breed disciples of men and religiosity. Look around you! You see "church members" talking, making hair and dressing like their "MOG". they are like him, not HIM. Listen carefully "The MOG named__________(insert MOG name of your choice here) can never make anyone like Christ or Christlike. It's religious instruction and cannever be more than that. Lemme drop it sir. You earlier quoted the early part of Ephesians 4. Allow me to post a few verses later; Ephesians 4: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. All you clergy/officies/functions are to lead/point to one thing. To wit fullness in and of Christ. Christlikeness. hear me, MOGS cannot, because; 1. They have not themselves attained to this 2. It can only be obtained in Christ and through Christ Are believers supposed to be fed and nurtured forever? 1. When do they attain to the above? 2. How do they? 3. What happens when they do? 4. Is it happening now? 5. Where? 6. Under which MOG? 7.In which Institutionalised church? They are selling you dross for gold, religion for faith men for Christ. Building a religious circus. based on the co-dependency of clergy and laity, leaders and followers sheep and shepherds, that leads nowhere, attains to nothing - in christ anyway - and is not even worthy of eathly, let alone heavenly/eternal honour, consideration and profit. - does it limit God's ability or restrict God to work in someone? answer is no, rather it builds the body. do you know that christ is not the body (church)? but the head of the church You words here ring true, but the practical implications of your institution, admin, salaries, funding and the like are all real and their outworking is all too evident. where in the bible is your name and surname mentioned,but yet dont you look in there and find everything about yourself? na wa o i thought i gave you the definition of the word "CLERGY" pls brother read the definition better.pls this aint a question beloved brother. I don't quite get the point you are making here. - partially true partially not true, Paul noted that he worked because he wanted to, else said he ,that he would have survived from their willful contributions. read 1corinthinas again. So no tithe, taxes or levies then? Right - Brother, my too i even marvel at where the later got that idea of full-time and part-time ministry, i dont know, well what can one say, the name itself even pops a laughter to me here. i agree with you on that! Hmmmm! Now you are talking Sir! thats true bro, very true! Hmmmmm. In that case i'd better repeat myself. The church and it's structure/administration, is a part of christian life, an aspect of the experience, but not as some would presume the fullness of it. It's only meant to articulate how believers come together - when they do. Many mistakenly feel that all aspects of the Christian experience are articulated, regulated and lived out through "church", it's "pastors" and "ministry" and "functions". It's grievous error and the cause for much of the dysfunction amongst "christians" and "christianity" today. And I use quotes advisedly. Because embodying the notion of "church" to be an entity and end in its own right, and believing that faith is articulated, lived, regulated and experienced through "church. and further labouring under the notion that "Christlikeness" is to be attained through or by being in church is infact idolatory. I beg to take my leave unless other pertinent points are made or concerns raised. Apologies for the lengthinessof my post. Peace. He is the Way , tthe truth and the Life. No one comes untothe father except by Him. J the lesser. |
| Re: Now Bankrupt Evander Holyfield Paid His Tithes But Forgot About His Mortage by Tonyet1(m): 10:09am On Jun 26, 2009 |
@Jeromek, - Reading thru all your comments here only shows me how fixed you've set your mindset to Christianity and its issues, with this i say you have the right to believe what you want to and how you wish to follow your xtian faith - You tend to draw things from a free-thinker point of view and with this i mean that you rarely show scriptural backings and hardly even check definitions of terms and why they exist in christendom - Therefore i now agree to believe what PAUL said that everyone should operate in the sphere of grace he finds him/herself - For instance you saying that the Church is just a body of christ and not an institution, i laugh because you still fail to read the definition of the term " institution".Are they not the same, i ask? *just creating unnecessary arguments here aint right you know?,because the bible warned us against* - What really brought about all this debate was simply the issue of titheing which you first argued was not the same as tenthing until i showed you and even gave a definition side. you stopped. next you argued that the church doesnt need a system (which is where an institution comes in) i showed you. at least from the early church on how things were to be shared equally among them - Next, you fail to understand what a "body" even means, you still think that the later church should be the same as the early church, for you noting, a body is born to grow, if this is true, then it shows that the early church and its system could be likened unto a small baby, while the later a grown up adult, which should reveal different phases my conclusion: - As for titheing , i will pay my tithe and give very generously, regardless of how the MOGs use it, God always has a way of dealing with treachous leaders (Ezekiel.34) - As for understanding, i believe and will forever believe that the church is a new order born from Christ (the high priest), as after the old order which is a shadow of things to come(Col.2:17) - As for Me, the Body is the same thing as a Institute, because it talks of a PEOPLE, who share a unique knowledge and belief system, and thus requires that members be taken good care of (Acts.4) which is where administration should come in - As for Me, i believe the MOGs are likened unto the LEVITES, because a figure head is always necessary to cater for the young ones (John.21:16)(1tim.3:2- talks of a BISHOP) - As for me, the body of Christ is the church, while the spiritual head is the Christ (Eph.1:22) and lots of moreof my own opinion, so when next Jeromek (my dearest friend) you attend a church , if you so which, pls when a titheing or giving is asked and you dont feel like, well do as your heart tells u or maybe your bible tells you and lets stop at this point God bless you Tonye your friend |
| Re: Now Bankrupt Evander Holyfield Paid His Tithes But Forgot About His Mortage by sosisi(f): 8:33pm On Jun 26, 2009 |
If paying tithes made evander bankrupt how about Mike Tyson,the late Ed Mcmahon nko and the millions of Americans and co operations who've filed for bankruptcy People and their lies. |
| Re: Now Bankrupt Evander Holyfield Paid His Tithes But Forgot About His Mortage by savanaha: 8:38pm On Jun 26, 2009 |
$osisi: . . .and MC Hammer. |
| Re: Now Bankrupt Evander Holyfield Paid His Tithes But Forgot About His Mortage by sosisi(f): 8:48pm On Jun 26, 2009 |
savanaha: Thank you A few of Famous People Who Filed for Bankruptcy By Brett Weiss, Maryland Bankruptcy Attorney on Jan 27, 2007 in General Bankruptcy Information, Maryland If you’re feeling alone or depressed because of financial problems, cheer up! You’re in good company. Below is a list of some of the famous people who have filed for bankruptcy or had severe financial problems before the modern bankruptcy code was adopted. Please note that most of these folks had their great success and fame after their bankruptcies. Donald Trump, financier Michael Jackson, singer Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, composer Elton John, singer/composer Kim Bassinger, actress Mike Tyson, boxer Mark Twain, humorist Burt Reynolds, actor Thomas Jefferson, patriot and president Gary Coleman, child actor MC Hammer, rap singer Willie Nelson, country singer Lorraine Bracco, “The Soprano’s” actress Charles Goodyear, inventor of vulcanized rubber PT Barnum, circus promoter L. Frank Baum, author of “The Wonderful Wizard of Oz” Mathew Brady, Civil War photographer Oscar Wilde, playwright Jerry Lee Lewis, rock singer Rembrandt, painter Henry Heinz, ketchup magnate Milton Hershey, chocolate magnate Henry Ford, auto magnate Johnny Unitas, football player Wayne Newton, entertainer Mickey Rooney, actor Debbie Reynolds, actress John Connally, former Texas governor Walt Disney, creator of Mickey Mouse Mick Fleetwood, rock singer Merle Haggard, country singer Ulysses S. Grant, president and Civil War general Dorothy Hamill, figure skater Larry King, talk show host Bowie Kuhn, former baseball commissioner Stan Lee, comic book creator of “Spider Man” I'm sure most people here have heard of the highlighted names above Did they also pay tithes? |
| Re: Now Bankrupt Evander Holyfield Paid His Tithes But Forgot About His Mortage by ogajim(m): 2:54pm On Jun 30, 2009 |
What do these folks have to do with this discourse? Advocates of tithes still can't answer a simple question - Will you let your child go hungry and pay tithe to a "church"? |
| Re: Now Bankrupt Evander Holyfield Paid His Tithes But Forgot About His Mortage by sosisi(f): 4:36pm On Jun 30, 2009 |
ogajim: Did he lose his house because he paid tithes? If you're unable to see that bankruptcy has nothing to do with tithes from the list staring you in the face then you have a long way to go with your reasoning. |
| Re: Now Bankrupt Evander Holyfield Paid His Tithes But Forgot About His Mortage by debosky(m): 4:38pm On Jun 30, 2009 |
$osisi:Are they even reasoning? The OP even claimed he wasn't linking tithing to bankruptcy even when the link is right there in the title. |
| Re: Now Bankrupt Evander Holyfield Paid His Tithes But Forgot About His Mortage by ogajim(m): 4:48pm On Jun 30, 2009 |
Let me take it then that you two don't have kids since you can't answer the question. No one said paying tithe led to his financial woes, at least I am not. |
| Re: Now Bankrupt Evander Holyfield Paid His Tithes But Forgot About His Mortage by debosky(m): 5:12pm On Jun 30, 2009 |
ogajim:Then go and discuss on another thread - this thread clearly implies that it did and that is what we are addressing. The question is redundant - did Holyfield's children go hungry because of tithe? How is that relevant to anything here? |
| Re: Now Bankrupt Evander Holyfield Paid His Tithes But Forgot About His Mortage by ogajim(m): 5:57pm On Jun 30, 2009 |
I had no idea they had lawyers up in here! Dude "paid his tithes but forgot to pay his mortgage" not to mention he's behind on his child support payments. Maybe when you take that many punches to the head, you can fall prey to all sorts of tricks be it Biblical or not that these pimps are coming up with, I just feel sorry for the kids if they are not being taken care of so their daddy can pay some guy for his salvation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ligxTfLDXnI |
| Re: Now Bankrupt Evander Holyfield Paid His Tithes But Forgot About His Mortage by KunleOshob(m): 4:05pm On Jul 01, 2009 |
ogajim: 1 Timothy 5:8: 8 But those who won’t care for their relatives, especially those in their own household, have denied the true faith. Such people are worse than unbelievers. |
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