The credit of this thread goes to my brother in islam Osama AbdAllah, his article on this subject made this thread a possibility, may Allah be pleased with him him, Amin.

I am specially inviting scholar8200, analice107, parisbookaddict, true2god, and other NL christians, maybe they will see the light in islam through this thread,

carinmom (my sister in islam, the two threads i opened today is the main reason why i said i've been busy) you are also invited
most christians here on Nairaland try to discredit the prophethood of Muhammad pbuh by saying, "No prophesy on the coming of Muhammad pbuh in the bible",

Alright, let us look at the following Verse from the King James Version Bible: "And Enoch also, the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14-15)"

Let us also look at the following Verse: "And he said, The LORD came from Si'-nai, and rose up from Se'-ir unto them; he shined forth from mount Pa'-ran [Mecca in Arabic], and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. (The King James Version Bible, Deuteronomy 33:2)"

According to Islam's history, when Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and his followers faced hostility from the people of Mecca (Paran), they had to leave the city. They fled to the City of "Yathrib" which was called later "Madina" where Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him continued to spread Islam to all of the Arabs and then later to the countries near by.

I can see some people dilating their eyes and thinking, how can paran be makkah, okay let us look at the following Verses:

"Then God opened her [Hagar] eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink. God was with the boy as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an archer. While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt. At that time Abimelech and Phicol the commander of his forces said to Abraham, "God is with you in everything you do. (From the NIV Bible, Genesis 21:19-22)"

Hagar was an Arab. Abraham peace be upon him had Ishmael from her, who was 13 years older than Issac. After Sarah, Abraham's wife gave birth to Issac, Abraham decided to let Hagar and her son Ishmael go. He sent to the desert of Arabia in the region of Paran.

Then GOD Almighty promised Ishmael that from him, He will increase his numbers and make from him a great nation, the Arab nation; "And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. (Genesis 17:20)"

The Bible clearly says that Paran is south of Sinai in Egypt; "He said: 'The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.' (Deuteronomy 33:2)"

Kedar came from Ishmael; "These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, and Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa, Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah: These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations. Kedar and Ancient Arabs (Genesis 25:13)" The Arabian desert region was named after Kedar. See the second map below,






The Ishmaelites were Arabs and not Egyptians. They came from the Arabian desert; "As they sat down to eat their meal, they looked up and saw a caravan of Ishmaelites coming from Gilead. Their camels were loaded with spices, balm and myrrh, and they were on their way to take them down to Egypt. (Genesis 37:25)"

"take them down to Egypt" means taking them to the land of Egypt. It doesn't mean taking them toward the south direction. When for instance you say "my house is right down the street", it doesn't mean the house is south of the street. The house could be on the north side. The sentence means that the house is on the street, or will be found if the person walks in the path that you lead him to.

The point however in the above Verse is that the Ishmaelites were not from Egypt. They came from another land. They had loaded camels and they were heading to Egypt. Arabs used to rely heavily on camels for traveling. And as we've seen from the above Verses regarding Ishmael and his Mother (Hagar) living in the desert of Paran in the South, this clearly proves to us that the desert of Paran is located in Arabia and not in Egypt, since the Ishmaelites are not Egyptians.

Recent archeological discoveries along with Paul's own words in Galatians 4:25 clearly suggest that Mount Sinai is located in Saudi Arabia. This means that Paran being south of Mount Sinai clearly means that it is the Holy City of Mecca as I showed above:

The Bible clearly says that Paran is south of Sinai in Egypt; "He said: 'The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.' (Deuteronomy 33:2)"

This verse is elaborated on further above. Now, let us first look at Galatians 4:25, then the archeological evidence:

"Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. (From the NIV Bible, Galatians 4:25)"

This is an excerpt from an article of christian archaeologists:

For centuries Bible scholars and religious pilgrims have been seeking the location of the real Mt. Sinai.Today, most people are unaware that not one piece of hard evidence has been produced to verify that what is traditionally designated at “Mount Sinai” in the south central Sinai Peninsula is indeed thefamed mountain of Moses and the Exodus. In fact, the only verifiable reason that the traditional site is designated “Mount Sinai” at all is because a Roman mystic designated it and Helena, mother of Constantine I, anointed it as the true Mount Sinai early in the 4th century AD. (Helena also claimed she discovered the true “holy sepulchre” in Jerusalem and the true cross of Christ.)

Several other proposed sites for the true Mount Sinai have been suggested by biblical scholars, but thus far they have produced no archaeological evidence to support them. If we are ever to discern a correct location for the historical events recorded in the biblical Book of Exodus, it’s important to use the Scriptures as a guide, just as we would use any ancient documents that have proven reliable in the past.

In the New Testament, Paul wrote in Galatians 4:25, “Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia . . .”Although some argue that here the Roman designation of Arabia includes the Sinai Peninsula, Arabia in Paul’s day encompassed a larger region that primarily designated the populated regions of ancient Midian, or modern-day Saudi Arabia. As a “Hebrew of Hebrews,” Paul’s understanding of Arabia would have been one that was consistent with Old Testament passages like 1 Kings 10:15, 2 Chronicles 9:14, Isaiah 21:13, Jeremiah 25:24, and Ezekiel 27:21, in which Arabia is clearly identified with the region east of the Gulf of Aqaba, where “kings” ruled and the “Dedanites” co-dwelt with other nomadic peoples.

Even more telling, Exodus 3:1 plainly identifies Mount Horeb (Sinai) as being in Midian: “Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.” Here, there are two important issues. First, the region of “Midian” referred to here is undeniably the same as present-day Saudi Arabia. Second, at the traditional site of Mt. Sinai on the Sinai Peninsula, there is nothing that would cause it to be geographically identified with the “back” of a desert, in distinction from its surroundings. By contrast, the site proposed by BASE Institute is, indeed, on the far side or margin of a vast desert in ancient Midian.

However, can ancient Midian be identified with the Sinai Peninsula, which in the time of Moses, was considered a part of Egypt (although designated as the “wilderness” of Egypt)? It is apparent from Exodus 2:15 that the two were separate entities. After killing an Egyptian, Moses fled Egypt for safer ground: “When Pharaoh heard of this, he tried to kill Moses, but Moses fled from Pharaoh and went to live in Midian.” Egypt and its holdings would not have been safe for Moses under any circumstances. He would not have fled to the Sinai Peninsula, where archaeology shows that Pharaoh had multiple mining interests and military outposts. The Bible is clear that Moses went out of Egypt, to the land of Midian east of the gulf of Aqaba.

The Bible makes several references to Moses returning to Egypt from Midian, including Exodus 4:19 where we read, “Now the Lord had said to Moses in Midian, ‘Go back to Egypt, for all the men who wanted to kill you are dead.” All passages associated with Moses’ stay in Midian point toward present-day Saudi Arabia as the area to which Moses fled, subsequently met God at the burning bush, and then returned with the children of Israel.

Because so many Bible references as well as archaeological evidence (or the lack of it) pointed away from traditional Mount Sinai and toward Saudi Arabia as the location of the historical mountain of Moses, a site inspection was necessary to determine if other evidence could be found to support this theory. Saudi Arabia’s closed borders made it impossible for a team of scholars and archaeologists to enter the country. As a result, Larry Williams and I surreptitiously slipped into the country, traced what appears to be the Exodus route, and climbed the mountain which many scholars now consider to be the true Mount Sinai.

So as we can see paran is indeed makkah of today,

When Islam became complete and the number of the Muslims grew up, Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him decided to liberated the Holy City of Mecca, the city of our beloved father Abraham the father of Ishmael and Isaac peace be upon all of them who built the black cube building of Kaaba in the same city, the Holy House of GOD Almighty.

The army of the Muslims that conquered Mecca without any blood shed (peacefully) were exactly 10,000 men (From the book of "Muhammad the Prophet" by Maulana Muhammad Ali, pages 128-129). The Bible calls them "ten thousands of saints".

It's quite interesting to see how the Bible in both the Old Testament and the New Testament predicts this event to occur in the city of Paran (Makkah).

Two questions for all the NL Christians:

1- If the prophecies above from the Bible were not referring to our beloved Prophet peace be upon him and his army, then who else are they referring to?

2- Would you please bring me one Christian event that took place in the Holy City of Paran (Makkah), or any city or event in the Bible that involved 10,000 Christian saints?

The Biblical number 10,000, and the Prophecy of the 10,000 men of GOD Almighty executing the Judgement of GOD in an ungodly place is only linked to Prophet Muhammad and Islam.

Embrace Islam and you will be saved!

peace be onto you

double post

Just go back and learn the difference btw 'Ten thousand' and 'Ten thousands'. Then you will realize that the Holy Bible does validate itself and itself only, and not any other horible books.

By the way, the Lord would surely come with ten thousands (thousands of thousands, multiple tens of thousands, and not your 10,000 jihadist) of his saints to execute jugdement. But before then, continue to search the scripture for prophecies to validate your religion and prophet.

lexiconkabir:
The credit of this thread goes to my brother in islam Osama AbdAllah, his article on this subject made this thread a possibility, may Allah be pleased with him him, Amin.

I am specially inviting scholar8200, analice107, parisbookaddict, true2god, and other NL christians, maybe they will see the light in islam through this thread,

most christians here on Nairaland try to discredit the prophethood of Muhammad pbuh by saying, "No prophesy on the coming of Muhammad pbuh in the bible",

Alright, let us look at the following Verse from the King James Version Bible: "And Enoch also, the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord came with [size=14pt]ten thousands[/size] of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14-15)"

Referring to the Second Coming of Christ being the purpose of the writer and the context of the prophecy.

Let us also look at the following Verse: "And he said, The LORD came from Si'-nai, and rose up from Se'-ir unto them; he shined forth from mount Pa'-ran [Mecca in Arabic], and he came with ten thousands of [size=14pt]saints[/size]: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. (The King James Version Bible, Deuteronomy 33:2)"

Moses describing what transpired at Sinai when he went to collect the law for 40 days in Exodus 19:16-25 hence it was a historic record not a prophecy!

According to Islam's history, when Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and his followers faced hostility from the people of Mecca (Paran), they had to leave the city. They fled to the City of "Yathrib" which was called later "Madina" where Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him continued to spread Islam to all of the Arabs and then later to the countries near by.

I can see some people dilating their eyes and thinking, how can paran be makkah, okay let us look at the following Verses:

"Then God opened her [Hagar] eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink. God was with the boy as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an archer. While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt. At that time Abimelech and Phicol the commander of his forces said to Abraham, "God is with you in everything you do. (From the NIV Bible, Genesis 21:19-22)"

Hagar was an Arab.

No, she was an Egyptian! Genesis 16:1. I dont expect this oversight since you believe Ishmael was the patriarch of the Arab nation.

Abraham peace be upon him had Ishmael from her, who was 13 years older than Issac. After Sarah, Abraham's wife gave birth to Issac, Abraham decided to let Hagar and her son Ishmael go. He sent to the desert of Arabia in the region of Paran.



Then GOD Almighty promised Ishmael that from him, He will increase his numbers and make from him a great nation, the Arab nation; "And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. (Genesis 17:20)"

These are their generations: The firstborn of Ishmael, Nebaioth; then Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam, 30 Mishma, and Dumah, Massa, Hadad, and Tema, 31 Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah. These are the sons of Ishmael.

1 Chronicles 1:29-31

God did not specify which of the 12 rulers from Ishmael hence we cannot fill in the gaps;

The Bible clearly says that Paran is south of Sinai in Egypt; "He said: 'The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.' (Deuteronomy 33:2)"

Kedar came from Ishmael; "These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, and Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa, Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah: These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations. Kedar and Ancient Arabs (Genesis 25:13)" The Arabian desert region was named after Kedar. See the second map below,

That highlighted part is not in the Bible!

he Ishmaelites were Arabs and not Egyptians. They came from the Arabian desert; "As they sat down to eat their meal, they looked up and saw a caravan of Ishmaelites coming from Gilead. Their camels were loaded with spices, balm and myrrh, and they were on their way to take them down to Egypt. (Genesis 37:25)"

"take them down to Egypt" means taking them to the land of Egypt. It doesn't mean taking them toward the south direction. When for instance you say "my house is right down the street", it doesn't mean the house is south of the street. The house could be on the north side. The sentence means that the house is on the street, or will be found if the person walks in the path that you lead him to.

The point however in the above Verse is that the Ishmaelites were not from Egypt. They came from another land. They had loaded camels and they were heading to Egypt. Arabs used to rely heavily on camels for traveling. And as we've seen from the above Verses regarding Ishmael and his Mother (Hagar) living in the desert of Paran in the South, this clearly proves to us that the desert of Paran is located in Arabia and not in Egypt, since the Ishmaelites are not Egyptians.

Recent archeological discoveries along with Paul's own words in Galatians 4:25 clearly suggest that Mount Sinai is located in Saudi Arabia. This means that Paran being south of Mount Sinai clearly means that it is the Holy City of Mecca as I showed above:

The Bible clearly says that Paran is south of Sinai in Egypt; "He said: 'The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.' (Deuteronomy 33:2)"

This verse is elaborated on further above. Now, let us first look at Galatians 4:25, then the archeological evidence:

"Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. (From the NIV Bible, Galatians 4:25)"

This is an excerpt from an article of christian archaeologists:



So as we can see paran is indeed makkah of today,

To be continued, Insha Allah

My findings show that Paran is a transjordan desert while Mt Paran is found in Jordan:
http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-exodus-route-wilderness-of-paran.htm

lexiconkabir:

Two questions for all the NL Christians:

1- If the prophecies above from the Bible were not referring to our beloved Prophet peace be upon him and his army, then who else are they referring to?

2- Would you please bring me one Christian event that took place in the Holy City of Paran (Makkah), or any city or event in the Bible that involved 10,000 Christian saints?

The Biblical number 10,000, and the Prophecy of the 10,000 men of GOD Almighty executing the Judgement of GOD in an ungodly place is only linked to Prophet Muhammad and Islam.

Embrace Islam and you will be saved!

peace be onto you

Besides, the two passage quoted said The Lord hence it refers not to a man. Furthermore, the one in Deuteronomy speaks of God giving a law which was fulfilled in Exodus 19,20 hence it is not the same as that spoken by Enoch.

The prophecies of the coming of Jesus Christ in the OT uses various terms, Son, Lord, Servant, Prophet etc because He Who was to come was Divine but will put on mortality when He comes. The prophecy concerning Cyrus, Josiah, etc leaves none in doubt that it was a man coming. Hence if you want to use the Bible to predict Muhammed, then the language, being a man like the others mentioned, would have been similar, i.e. sans the use of the word Lord!

firebrand:
Just go back and learn the difference btw 'Ten thousand' and 'Ten thousands'. Then you will realize that the Holy Bible does validate itself and itself only, and not any other horible books.

I hope you know that the book of jude wasnt originally in English, rather it was hebrew

This is ten thousand in hebrews עשרת אלפים

This is ten thousands in hebrews עשרת אלפים,

please is there any difference? No, so i can safely be said that this is one of the deceptions of bible translators,

Scholar8200:
Besides, the two passage quoted said The Lord hence it refers not to a man. Furthermore, the one in Deuteronomy speaks of God giving a law which was fulfilled in Exodus 19,20 hence it is not the same as that spoken by Enoch.

must it be literal?

lexiconkabir:


must it be literal?

Compare with other Bible prophecies that point to men and see that it is wrong to claim that for a man. In fact, the next similitude used for man is animals Daniel 7:1-16 (Nebuchadnezzar, Alexander etc), not Divinity!

lexiconkabir:


I hope you know that the book of jude wasnt originally in English, rather it was hebrew

This ten thousands in hebrews עשרת אלפים

This is ten thousands in hebrews עשרת אלפים,

please is there any difference? No, so i can safely be said that this is one of the deceptions of bible translators,

Deception? Jude was written in Greek.

Scholar8200:
Deception? Jude was written in Greek.

Ten thousand in greek δέκα χιλιάδες

ten thousands in greek δέκα χιλιάδες

Any difference?

lexiconkabir:


Ten thousand in greek δέκα χιλιάδες

ten thousands in greek δέκα χιλιάδες

Any difference?

Let's see the original here:
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/jude/1-14.htm

The word used there was
myriasin
μυριάσιν

Meaning:
plural with the genitive equivalent to an innumerable multitude, an unlimited number ((like our myriads), the Latinsexcenti, German Tausend): Luke 12:1; Acts 21:20; Revelation 5:11 (not Rec.st); (here L T δισμυριάδες, which see); used simply, of innumerable hosts of angels: Hebrews 12:22 (here G L Tr put a comma after μυριάσιν); Jude 1:14; Deuteronomy 33:2; Daniel 7:10.
Thayer's Lexicon

Dude, why use the Bible for anything when it so obviously isn't a book given by God?

Why seek validation from a book so obviously corrupted?

Why are you determined to find justification in something you do not believe in?

lexiconkabir:
The credit of this thread goes to my brother in islam Osama AbdAllah, his article on this subject made this thread a possibility, may Allah be pleased with him him, Amin.

I am specially inviting scholar8200, analice107, parisbookaddict, true2god, and other NL christians, maybe they will see the light in islam through this thread,

carinmom (my sister in islam, the two threads i opened today is the main reason why i said i've been busy) you are also invited
most christians here on Nairaland try to discredit the prophethood of Muhammad pbuh by saying, "No prophesy on the coming of Muhammad pbuh in the bible",

Alright, let us look at the following Verse from the King James Version Bible: "And Enoch also, the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14-15)"

Let us also look at the following Verse: "And he said, The LORD came from Si'-nai, and rose up from Se'-ir unto them; he shined forth from mount Pa'-ran [Mecca in Arabic], and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. (The King James Version Bible, Deuteronomy 33:2)"

According to Islam's history, when Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and his followers faced hostility from the people of Mecca (Paran), they had to leave the city. They fled to the City of "Yathrib" which was called later "Madina" where Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him continued to spread Islam to all of the Arabs and then later to the countries near by.

I can see some people dilating their eyes and thinking, how can paran be makkah, okay let us look at the following Verses:

"Then God opened her [Hagar] eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink. God was with the boy as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an archer. While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt. At that time Abimelech and Phicol the commander of his forces said to Abraham, "God is with you in everything you do. (From the NIV Bible, Genesis 21:19-22)"

Hagar was an Arab. Abraham peace be upon him had Ishmael from her, who was 13 years older than Issac. After Sarah, Abraham's wife gave birth to Issac, Abraham decided to let Hagar and her son Ishmael go. He sent to the desert of Arabia in the region of Paran.

Then GOD Almighty promised Ishmael that from him, He will increase his numbers and make from him a great nation, the Arab nation; "And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. (Genesis 17:20)"

The Bible clearly says that Paran is south of Sinai in Egypt; "He said: 'The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.' (Deuteronomy 33:2)"

Kedar came from Ishmael; "These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, and Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa, Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah: These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations. Kedar and Ancient Arabs (Genesis 25:13)" The Arabian desert region was named after Kedar. See the second map below,






The Ishmaelites were Arabs and not Egyptians. They came from the Arabian desert; "As they sat down to eat their meal, they looked up and saw a caravan of Ishmaelites coming from Gilead. Their camels were loaded with spices, balm and myrrh, and they were on their way to take them down to Egypt. (Genesis 37:25)"

"take them down to Egypt" means taking them to the land of Egypt. It doesn't mean taking them toward the south direction. When for instance you say "my house is right down the street", it doesn't mean the house is south of the street. The house could be on the north side. The sentence means that the house is on the street, or will be found if the person walks in the path that you lead him to.

The point however in the above Verse is that the Ishmaelites were not from Egypt. They came from another land. They had loaded camels and they were heading to Egypt. Arabs used to rely heavily on camels for traveling. And as we've seen from the above Verses regarding Ishmael and his Mother (Hagar) living in the desert of Paran in the South, this clearly proves to us that the desert of Paran is located in Arabia and not in Egypt, since the Ishmaelites are not Egyptians.

Recent archeological discoveries along with Paul's own words in Galatians 4:25 clearly suggest that Mount Sinai is located in Saudi Arabia. This means that Paran being south of Mount Sinai clearly means that it is the Holy City of Mecca as I showed above:

The Bible clearly says that Paran is south of Sinai in Egypt; "He said: 'The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.' (Deuteronomy 33:2)"

This verse is elaborated on further above. Now, let us first look at Galatians 4:25, then the archeological evidence:

"Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. (From the NIV Bible, Galatians 4:25)"

This is an excerpt from an article of christian archaeologists:



So as we can see paran is indeed makkah of today,

When Islam became complete and the number of the Muslims grew up, Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him decided to liberated the Holy City of Mecca, the city of our beloved father Abraham the father of Ishmael and Isaac peace be upon all of them who built the black cube building of Kaaba in the same city, the Holy House of GOD Almighty.

The army of the Muslims that conquered Mecca without any blood shed (peacefully) were exactly 10,000 men (From the book of "Muhammad the Prophet" by Maulana Muhammad Ali, pages 128-129). The Bible calls them "ten thousands of saints".

It's quite interesting to see how the Bible in both the Old Testament and the New Testament predicts this event to occur in the city of Paran (Makkah).

Two questions for all the NL Christians:

1- If the prophecies above from the Bible were not referring to our beloved Prophet peace be upon him and his army, then who else are they referring to?

2- Would you please bring me one Christian event that took place in the Holy City of Paran (Makkah), or any city or event in the Bible that involved 10,000 Christian saints?

The Biblical number 10,000, and the Prophecy of the 10,000 men of GOD Almighty executing the Judgement of GOD in an ungodly place is only linked to Prophet Muhammad and Islam.

Embrace Islam and you will be saved!

peace be onto you

I will say but one thing.
Post here for the world to see, the genealogy that links Muhammed with Ismail. Finish.

Scholar8200:
Let's see the original here:
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/jude/1-14.htm

The word used there was
myriasin
μυριάσιν

Meaning:
plural with the genitive equivalent to an innumerable multitude, an unlimited number ((like our myriads), the Latinsexcenti, German Tausend): Luke 12:1; Acts 21:20; Revelation 5:11 (not Rec.st); (here L T δισμυριάδες, which see); used simply, of innumerable hosts of angels: Hebrews 12:22 (here G L Tr put a comma after μυριάσιν); Jude 1:14; Deuteronomy 33:2; Daniel 7:10.
Thayer's Lexicon

its actually myriad

and myriad means 10,000

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ten+thousand

lexiconkabir post

Ten thousand in greek δέκα χιλιάδες
ten thousands in greek δέκα χιλιάδες
Any difference?

You claimed the book of Jude was written in Hebrew, now admitted it was written in Greek after your lies were bursted. The passage in question is related to several passages in the scripture with similar meaning and interpretation in the Bible. The readers of the book are not confused, except people who are looking for support base for their faith, and selfish motive.

lexiconkabir:


Ten thousand in greek δέκα χιλιάδες

ten thousands in greek δέκα χιλιάδες

Any difference?

Besides, pls there is NO part of the Bible that likens Jesus to Mount Seir! That mountain was given to the Edomites Deut 2:22. Claiming that refers to Christ leaves much to be desired!

lexiconkabir:


its actually myriad

and myriad means 10,000

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ten+thousand

The contextual usage was stated in the lexicon I quoted :
When Myriad refers to 10,000 was in Acts 19;19 only!
Then instead of myriasin, this was used:

myriadas
μυριάδας

Meaning 10,000!

But myriasin refers to an indefinite number.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3461: μυριάς

μυριάς, μυριαδος, ἡ (μυρίος) (from Herodotus down), the Sept. for רְבָבָה and רִבּו;
a. ten thousand: Acts 19:19 (on which passage see ἀργύριον, 3 at the end).

b. plural with the genitive equivalent to an innumerable multitude, an unlimited number ((like our myriads), the Latinsexcenti, German Tausend): Luke 12:1; Acts 21:20; Revelation 5:11 (not Rec.st); (here L T δισμυριάδες, which see); used simply, of innumerable hosts of angels: Hebrews 12:22 (here G L Tr put a comma after μυριάσιν); Jude 1:14; Deuteronomy 33:2; Daniel 7:10.

The adjoining passages show which was meant for what context.

Scholar8200:
Referring to the Second Coming of Christ being the purpose of the writer and the context of the prophecy.

Moses describing what transpired at Sinai when he went to collect the law for 40 days in Exodus 19:16-25 hence it was a historic record not a prophecy!


No, she was an Egyptian! Genesis 16:1. I dont expect this oversight since you believe Ishmael was the patriarch of the Arab nation.



These are their generations: The firstborn of Ishmael, Nebaioth; then Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam, 30 Mishma, and Dumah, Massa, Hadad, and Tema, 31 Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah. These are the sons of Ishmael.

1 Chronicles 1:29-31

God did not specify which of the 12 rulers from Ishmael hence we cannot fill in the gaps;



That highlighted part is not in the Bible!

My findings show that Paran is a transjordan desert while Mt Paran is found in Jordan:
http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-exodus-route-wilderness-of-paran.htm

"Now Hagar stands for[b] Mount Sinai in Arabia[/b] and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. (From the NIV Bible, Galatians 4:25)"

lexiconkabir:


"Now Hagar stands for[b] Mount Sinai in Arabia[/b] and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. (From the NIV Bible, Galatians 4:25)"

Arabia at the time of Paul referred to the Peninsula,(since Saudi was founded in the 20th century) something more like a subcontinent comprising nations:

Arabian Peninsula, simplified Arabia[1] (Arabic: الجزيرة العربية‎ al-jazīra al-ʿarabiyya, « Arabian island ») is a peninsula of Western Asia situated north-east of Africa on the Arabian plate. From a geological perspective, it is considered a subcontinent of Asia
It is the largest peninsula in the world, at 3,237,500 km2 (1,250,000 sq mi). The Arabian Peninsula consists of the countries Yemen, Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates as well as parts of southern Iraq and Jordan.
Wikipedia


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Islamic_Arabia#/media/File:NabateensRoutes.png

Like Schlolar had said, the portion of Deuteronomy you quoted is historical and not prophetic. Note the portion said "The LORD came" and not "The LORD is coming."



Hagar was Egyptian and not Arab. The Arabs were obscure as at the time of Abraham. The Arabs are of later Semitic origin and not Hamitic whereas Hagar was Hamitic.


Ishmaelites were traders, so they travelled a lot and that does not necessarily mean they were Arabs.

@ lexiconkabir, I really appreciate your effort in ensuring that mohammed got a recognition in the bible, but I am sorry to disappoint you, prophethood is for the Jews (who the arabs\muslims hate). All the posters above debunked all your islamic lies being propagated in your mosques and madrassas (to make muslims feel good and relaxed in islamic lies).

You quoted: Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14-15)".

The above verse is talking about the saints of God and not criminals like mohammed and his sahabas who went about raiding caravan and collecting their wives and properties, as war booty. The war booty which mohammed was entitled to 20%.

The verse is not talking about mohammed, and his fellow criminals, who make a living oppressing non-muslims and collecting jizya from them (quran 9:29).

Mohammed said in his own words: I HAVE BEEN MADE VICTORIOUS THROUGH TERROR.

Please stop looking for mohammed in a place where he does not belong (bible). The quran and the hadith had told us all what we need know about him.

Their Qur'an even testifies to the deception within Islam.


"And they (the unbelievers) planned to deceive and Allah planned to deceive (unbelievers), and Allah is the best of deceivers" - Sura 3:54


"Are they then safe from Allah's deception? No one feels safe from Allah's deception but those that perish" - Sura 7:99

@op, I carefully followed your analysis and can authoritatively tell you that, you are a better human being than your Prophet Muhamed.

Sheep moral sound than the Shepard.

Another nauseating thing about this thread is the word 'liberation' used in the topic. Liberation from who or what The choice of that word also betrays the conceit, arrogance and dishonesty of muslims or how else do you go and conquer a town then turn around to claim you went to liberate them?

lexiconkabir:
The credit of this thread goes to my brother in islam Osama AbdAllah, his article on this subject made this thread a possibility, may Allah be pleased with him him, Amin.

I am specially inviting scholar8200, analice107, parisbookaddict, true2god, and other NL christians, maybe they will see the light in islam through this thread,

carinmom (my sister in islam, the two threads i opened today is the main reason why i said i've been busy) you are also invited
most christians here on Nairaland try to discredit the prophethood of Muhammad pbuh by saying, "No prophesy on the coming of Muhammad pbuh in the bible",

Alright, let us look at the following Verse from the King James Version Bible: "And Enoch also, the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14-15)"

Let us also look at the following Verse: "And he said, The LORD came from Si'-nai, and rose up from Se'-ir unto them; he shined forth from mount Pa'-ran [Mecca in Arabic], and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. (The King James Version Bible, Deuteronomy 33:2)"

According to Islam's history, when Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and his followers faced hostility from the people of Mecca (Paran), they had to leave the city. They fled to the City of "Yathrib" which was called later "Madina" where Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him continued to spread Islam to all of the Arabs and then later to the countries near by.

I can see some people dilating their eyes and thinking, how can paran be makkah, okay let us look at the following Verses:

"Then God opened her [Hagar] eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink. God was with the boy as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an archer. While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt. At that time Abimelech and Phicol the commander of his forces said to Abraham, "God is with you in everything you do. (From the NIV Bible, Genesis 21:19-22)"

Hagar was an Arab. Abraham peace be upon him had Ishmael from her, who was 13 years older than Issac. After Sarah, Abraham's wife gave birth to Issac, Abraham decided to let Hagar and her son Ishmael go. He sent to the desert of Arabia in the region of Paran.

Then GOD Almighty promised Ishmael that from him, He will increase his numbers and make from him a great nation, the Arab nation; "And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. (Genesis 17:20)"

The Bible clearly says that Paran is south of Sinai in Egypt; "He said: 'The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.' (Deuteronomy 33:2)"

Kedar came from Ishmael; "These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, and Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa, Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah: These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations. Kedar and Ancient Arabs (Genesis 25:13)" The Arabian desert region was named after Kedar. See the second map below,






The Ishmaelites were Arabs and not Egyptians. They came from the Arabian desert; "As they sat down to eat their meal, they looked up and saw a caravan of Ishmaelites coming from Gilead. Their camels were loaded with spices, balm and myrrh, and they were on their way to take them down to Egypt. (Genesis 37:25)"

"take them down to Egypt" means taking them to the land of Egypt. It doesn't mean taking them toward the south direction. When for instance you say "my house is right down the street", it doesn't mean the house is south of the street. The house could be on the north side. The sentence means that the house is on the street, or will be found if the person walks in the path that you lead him to.

The point however in the above Verse is that the Ishmaelites were not from Egypt. They came from another land. They had loaded camels and they were heading to Egypt. Arabs used to rely heavily on camels for traveling. And as we've seen from the above Verses regarding Ishmael and his Mother (Hagar) living in the desert of Paran in the South, this clearly proves to us that the desert of Paran is located in Arabia and not in Egypt, since the Ishmaelites are not Egyptians.

Recent archeological discoveries along with Paul's own words in Galatians 4:25 clearly suggest that Mount Sinai is located in Saudi Arabia. This means that Paran being south of Mount Sinai clearly means that it is the Holy City of Mecca as I showed above:

The Bible clearly says that Paran is south of Sinai in Egypt; "He said: 'The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.' (Deuteronomy 33:2)"

This verse is elaborated on further above. Now, let us first look at Galatians 4:25, then the archeological evidence:

"Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. (From the NIV Bible, Galatians 4:25)"

This is an excerpt from an article of christian archaeologists:



So as we can see paran is indeed makkah of today,

When Islam became complete and the number of the Muslims grew up, Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him decided to liberated the Holy City of Mecca, the city of our beloved father Abraham the father of Ishmael and Isaac peace be upon all of them who built the black cube building of Kaaba in the same city, the Holy House of GOD Almighty.

The army of the Muslims that conquered Mecca without any blood shed (peacefully) were exactly 10,000 men (From the book of "Muhammad the Prophet" by Maulana Muhammad Ali, pages 128-129). The Bible calls them "ten thousands of saints".

It's quite interesting to see how the Bible in both the Old Testament and the New Testament predicts this event to occur in the city of Paran (Makkah).

Two questions for all the NL Christians:

1- If the prophecies above from the Bible were not referring to our beloved Prophet peace be upon him and his army, then who else are they referring to?

2- Would you please bring me one Christian event that took place in the Holy City of Paran (Makkah), or any city or event in the Bible that involved 10,000 Christian saints?

The Biblical number 10,000, and the Prophecy of the 10,000 men of GOD Almighty executing the Judgement of GOD in an ungodly place is only linked to Prophet Muhammad and Islam.

Embrace Islam and you will be saved!

peace be onto you

Salam my brother, i was very busy i couldn't reply your mention

I must say that this topic is an interesting and informative one provided that one reads it with an open mind free of bigotry and prejudice.

But i'm sure you won't have it smooth with these bigots because they are not smiling, their minds are blocked and can't recognise the truth even if its staring them in the face.

Its even easier for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle than for many of them to believe.

Jazakallah khayran ya akhi, may Allah SWT increase your taqwa and wisdom.

Annunaki:
Another nauseating thing about this thread is the word 'liberation' used in the topic. Liberation from who or what The choice of that word also betrays the conceit, arrogance and dishonesty of muslims or how else do you go and conquer a town then turn around to claim you went to liberate them?

Arabs\muslims have a magical way of thinking that is beyond normal human comprehension. How can you go to a town kill their fathers, brothers and uncle and at the same time rape their sisters and mother and tell say you come to liberate the town and turn to to allahh.

This is exactly the partern mohammed was using after he left mecca for medina, fighting, looting and taking sex slaves. The loot is what the quran called 'spoil of war' and the women raped by mohammed armies are 'whom his right hand possesed' and all these evil are sanctioned by allahh and hailed by true muslims are heroic deeds of the criminal prophet mohammed.

Mohammed said he was made victorious through terror. How can a 'saint' be made victorius through terror? I am sorry, I still dont understand how a sane human being can call mohammed a prophet, let alone a saint. It is beyond logic.

carinmom:


Salam my brother, i was very busy i couldn't reply your mention

I must say that this topic is an interesting and informative one provided that one reads it with an open mind free of bigotry and prejudice.

But i'm sure you won't have it smooth with these bigots because they are not smiling, their minds are blocked and can't recognise the truth even if its staring them in the face.

Its even easier for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle than for many of them to believe.

Jazakallah khayran ya akhi, may Allah SWT increase your taqwa and wisdom.

You didnt contribute nothing but only patted you co-religionist at the back for writing conspiracies without evidence, prrove or logic. Make a reasonable input bro, dont be lazy.

All what kabiru wrote had been debunked as islamic usual lies. Did you bother reading the rebuttals at all?

true2god:
You didnt contribute nothing but only patted you co-religionist at the back for writing conspiracies without evidence, prrove or logic. Make a reasonable input bro, dont be lazy.

All what kabiru wrote had been debunked as islamic usual lies. Did you bother reading the rebuttals at all?

And so

It would be easy for someone to believed Islam in Your Prophet Mohammed if scandal were not hanging on his neck: from Adultery to hate speech, even mordern days Muslims were more muslim than him.

Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all

Yourself see this in red that it was referring to the Lord not man. You arguement died on arrival because 1st you claim Mohammed to be prophet, but the verse you quote is referring to the Lord not man. David use the same expression:

Ps 110:1 The LORD said unto[b] my Lord[/b], Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Here is two personality here called Lord.

From you post you said it was exactly 10,000 men that entered into Mecca, where was Mohammed at that time, among the 10,000 I suppose. That mean the Lord was not among the 10,000. It would have being justifiable to say the people were 10,001 then we would agree that your post is having a solid background.

If Enoch was prophesying about Mohammed entry into mecca, why would he exclude him from the number and not stating clearly the actual number 10,001 (Assuming the Lord is a spirit among them), Mohammed is definitely not the Lord, as you claim is a prophet.


You are really good with your research, really good!, but You need Jesus, I mean Accept him as Saviour. Amen

Paran is not in Mecca.

Moses and the Israelites were in Paran after the receipt of the ten commandments. Were they in Mecca?


www.answering-islam.org/Index/P/paran.html