Some theists have argued that this universe MUST have been created, especially since it is generally accepted that this present form of the universe came into existence about 14 billion years ago.  If atheists are to grant that this universe was in fact created by a being, whatever that being may be, is there any link or correspondence between this being and the Abrahamic god of the bible, koran or torah?

The theist who pursue this line of reasoning relies on scientific data to buttress his/her "first cause argument".  Could they similarly rely on science to make a link between the being who, in their view, created the universe and the Abrahamic god?   If they could, we would like to see them do that here!

Read genesis. God clearly tells us how he did everything. What else do u want u condemned child of satan??!! So called scientists and their inconclusive findings. Men playing God. . . When Jesus comes back dem eye go clear. . . shior!!

there Huxley, I've responded on their behalf. . . what next?

Krayola2:

Read genesis. God clearly tells us how he did everything. What else do u want to condemned child of satan??!! So called scientists and their inconclusive findings. Men playing God. . . When Jesus comes back dem eye go clear. . . shior!!

there Huxley, I've responded on their behalf. . . what next?

[size=24pt]GODDIDIT[/size]

Chrisbenogor:

[size=24pt]GODDIDIT[/size]

Alleluia!!

Krayola2:

Read genesis. God clearly tells us how he did everything. What else do u want u condemned child of satan??!! So called scientists and their inconclusive findings. Men playing God. . . When Jesus comes back dem eye go clear. . . shior!!

there Huxley, I've responded on their behalf. . . what next?

This means nothing - how do you go from the god you you claim created the universe about 14 billion years ago to the one that created the world in six days about 6000 years ago?

huxley:

Some theists have argued that this universe MUST have been created, especially since it is generally accepted that this present form of the universe came into existence about 14 billion years ago. If atheists are to grant that this universe was in fact created by a being, whatever that being may be, is there any link or correspondence between this being and the Abrahamic god of the bible, koran or torah?

The theist who pursue this line of reasoning relies on scientific data to buttress his/her "first cause argument". Could they similarly rely on science to make a link between the being who, in their view, created the universe and the Abrahamic god? If they could, we would like to see them do that here!

what next are you evolving into cat or gozilla plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz open up brain

huxley:

Some theists have argued that this universe MUST have been created, especially since it is generally accepted that this present form of the universe came into existence about 14 billion years ago. If atheists are to grant that this universe was in fact created by a being, whatever that being may be, is there any link or correspondence between this being and the Abrahamic god of the bible, koran or torah?

The theist who pursue this line of reasoning relies on scientific data to buttress his/her "first cause argument". Could they similarly rely on science to make a link between the being who, in their view, created the universe and the Abrahamic god? If they could, we would like to see them do that here!

There are only three possibilities from where the universe can come from.  By way of the elimination process let us find out the possibility that is plausibe.

[list]
[li]1). the universe created itself;[/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]2). the universe has always existed, and [/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]3). the universe was created.[/li]
[/list]

1. The universe created itself:  Can something create itself?  Can nothing create something?  The answer to these is an absolute No.  We all know that something cannot create itself and nothing can't create something.  From Latin we have the phrase "ex nihilo, nihil fit" meaning "from nothing, nothing comes."  It also violates the law of cause and effect, that says for every effect there must be a cause.  The effect can't be greater than the cause and nothing cannot be greater than something.  Therefore, based on the laws of science and logic, the universe couldn't have created itself.  That's your theory eliminated right there, gone up in smoke.

2. The univese has always existed:  Lets go to the 2nd law of thermodynamics that basically teaches that "the whole universe is losing usable energy for doing usable work."  This means that the usable energy in this universe is wearing down.  The universe as a whole is losing energy.  In other words, molecules as a whole are slowing down.

Therefore, if this universe was eternal we will be in what is called a "virtual heat death."  This means that there will be virtually no molecular movement.  Everything would have lost its available heat energy for doing work.  Therefore, the universe cannot be eternal, it must have had a beginning.  The theory that the universe has always existed or is eternal has to be false based on the law of science and logic, another speculation gone with the air.  This leaves us with only one possiblility based on science.

3. The universe was created: 

"In the Beginning God created the heaven and the earth." -- Genesis 1:1

This is the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.  To be more precise Colossians 1:16-17 tells us exactly who He is.  "For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist. "

^^^Rubbish

1)If something cannot create itself,and if nothing can create something,who or what created the abrahamic god then?How did he come to be,to existence?And from where did he get all the templates he used to create the things in the universe?From whence came his knowledge?Or this abrahamic god something created himself?If that is what you are claiming then you have just contradicted yourself,have you not?
2)If the universe does have a creator,why does it have to be the god of those people you mentioned?Apart from the fact that YOU only read THAT from a book called the bible,what other solid, empirical proof do you have to back your claim that the abrahamic god created the universe?
Waiting for your response.

OLAADEGBU:

There are only three possibilities from where the universe can come from.  By way of the elimination process let us find out the possibility that is plausibe.

[list]
[li]1). the universe created itself;[/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]2). the universe has always existed, and [/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]3). the universe was created.[/li]
[/list]

1. The universe created itself:  Can something create itself?  Can nothing create something?  The answer to these is an absolute No.  We all know that something cannot create itself and nothing can't create something.  From Latin we have the phrase "ex nihilo, nihil fit" meaning "from nothing, nothing comes."  It also violates the law of cause and effect, that says for every effect there must be a cause.  The effect can't be greater than the cause and nothing cannot be greater than something.  Therefore, based on the laws of science and logic, the universe couldn't have created itself.  That's your theory eliminated right there, gone up in smoke.

3. The universe was created: 

"In the Beginning God created the heaven and the earth." -- Genesis 1:1

This is the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.  To be more precise Colossians 1:16-17 tells us exactly who He is.  "For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist. "

jagunlabi:

1)If something cannot create itself,and if nothing can create something,who or what created the abrahamic god then?How did he come to be,to existence?And from where did he get all the templates he used to create the things in the universe?From whence came his knowledge?Or this abrahamic god something created himself?If that is what you are claiming then you have just contradicted yourself,have you not?
2)If the universe does have a creator,why does it have to be the god of those people you mentioned?Apart from the fact that YOU only read THAT from a book called the bible,what other solid, empirical proof do you have to back your claim that the abrahamic god created the universe?
Waiting for your response.

My thoughts exactly, OLAADEGBU keeps bringing this moot point that nothing can create it self but suddenly says that his god created himself, how contradictory can one be. . . . . .

OLAADEGBU:



2. The univese has always existed:  Lets go to the 2nd law of thermodynamics that basically teaches that "the whole universe is losing usable energy for doing usable work."  This means that the usable energy in this universe is wearing down.  The universe as a whole is losing energy.  In other words, molecules as a whole are slowing down.

Therefore, if this universe was eternal we will be in what is called a "virtual heat death."  This means that there will be virtually no molecular movement.  Everything would have lost its available heat energy for doing work.  Therefore, the universe cannot be eternal, it must have had a beginning.  The theory that the universe has always existed or is eternal has to be false based on the law of science and logic, another speculation gone with the air.  This leaves us with only one possiblility based on science.

Where did you get this from? The discredited website called answers in genesis?

Who did it?

God, of course.

muhsin:

Who did it?

God, of course.

Which god? Was it Sussicorn, Zeus, Thor, Wothan, Yahweh, etc, etc, etc?

There is only ONE true God.

That ONE true God did it.

"The geologists estimate that the age of the earth is somewhere between 80 and 800 millions of years; that the
Neanderthal race existed for more than 200,000 years; that between 40,000 and 25,000 years ago, as the
Fourth Glacial Period softened towards more temperate conditions, a different human type came upon the
scene and exterminated Homo Neanderthalensis. These first "true men" descended from some more ape-like
progenitors and are classed by ethnologists with the same species as ourselves, and with all human races
subsequent to them under one common, specific term, Homo Sapiens.
The age of cultivation began with the neolithic phase of human affairs about 10,000 or 12,000 years ago;
about 6000 or 7000 years ago men began to gather into the first towns and to develop something more than
the loose-knit tribes which had hitherto been their highest political organization. Altogether, there must have
elapsed about 500,000 years from the earliest ape-like human stage of life on this planet to the present time.
It necessarily follows that the age of our present civilization is by no means that which the Bible stipulates,
but is merely an atom in the vast space-time of this earth. The reason for this disparity is that with the
development of the mind of man throughout the ages there was conceived also his self-made religious
systems, based on a subjective interpretation of the universe, and not on an objective one, devoid of emotional
bias.
"Primitive man did not understand the natural cause of shadows, echoes, the birth and death of vegetable and
animal organisms. Of this ignorance religion was born, and theology was evolved as its art of expression."
(Draper.)
Our story takes us back some twelve thousand years to neolithic man. Squatting in his rude hovel or gloomy
cave, he listens to the sounds of a storm without. The howling of the wind, the flashes of lightning, and
crashing of thunder give rise to that elemental emotion--fear. Fear was always with him, as he thought of the
huge stones that fell and crushed him, and the beasts which were so eager to devour him. All things about him
seemed to conspire for his death: the wind, lightning, thunder, rain and storm, as well as the beasts and falling
trees; for in his mind he did not differentiate animate from inanimate objects. Slowly, through his groping
mind there evolved the thought, due to past experience, that he could not contend with these things by
physical force, but must subdue them with magic; his magic consisted of the beating of crude drum-like
instruments, dances, and the mumbling of words.
Upon falling asleep he dreams, and awakening, he finds that he is still in the same place where he had lain the
night before. Yet, he is certain that during the night he had traveled to his favorite wood and killed an animal
whose tender flesh he was still savoring. Since the conception of a dream was as yet foreign to him, the
logical conclusion he arrived at was that he had both a body and a spirit. If he possessed a body and a spirit,
then all things about him, he reasoned, must likewise possess a similar spirit. Some spirits, he felt, were
friendly; some, hostile to him. The hostile spirits were to be feared; but that powerful factor, "hope," had at
last entered into his mind, and he hoped to be able to win them over to the camp of friendly spirits."

D.M. Brooks- Necessity of Atheism.

rich_john:

^^^Rubbish

What is "Rubbish"? Do you mean where the arrow is pointing? Is that all you can say?

jagunlabi:

1)If something cannot create itself,and if nothing can create something,who or what created the abrahamic god then?How did he come to be,to existence?And from where did he get all the templates he used to create the things in the universe?From whence came his knowledge?Or this abrahamic god something created himself?If that is what you are claiming then you have just contradicted yourself,have you not?

Did you read my post at all? The subject here is the Creator of the universe. I said that the universe cannot create itself and that the universe is not eternal. Do you object to this fact? If you have any other possible scientific or logical reason how the universe came into existence can you share this with us. God is no thing, that is, He is the Eternal Uncreated Being. For something or someone to be created it or he has to have a beginning, just as the universe has a beginning. Have you heard about the law of cause and effect. The Cause has to be greater than the effect. Who or what do you think is the first Cause? The uncreated Creator is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, and He is the God of Abraham, of Isaac and Jacob, He is the Lord Jesus Christ. A question for you. Can you describe to me the aroma of coffee? Waiting for your response.

jagunlabi:

2)If the universe does have a creator,why does it have to be the god of those people you mentioned?Apart from the fact that YOU only read THAT from a book called the bible,what other solid, empirical proof do you have to back your claim that the abrahamic god created the universe?
Waiting for your response.

The Uncreated Eternal Creator has not left us without a witness. He has communicated to us through the Old Testament about a nation, Israel and then in the New Testament about a Man, Jesus Christ who is the central theme of the whole Bible who has come to redeemer us back to Himself, and that we should know Him on a personal level. If you look at it you will see that He used the prophets and apostles that were Jews to communicate His eyewitness account of Creation and specifically the origin of the universe. So, we have His Word and also His created World to arrive at an absolute certainty of the origin of the universe as well of life which is reasonable, scientific, logical and rational.

mazaje:

My thoughts exactly, OLAADEGBU keeps bringing this moot point that nothing can create it self but suddenly says that his god created himself, how contradictory can one be. . . . . .

When did you start commenting on your own thoughts. Who said that nothing ca create itself and that God created Himself? If you cannot comprehend what I wrote there I wonder how you think I contradicted myself. The saying that you can't think crooked and walk straight comes to mind.

mazaje:

Where did you get this from? The discredited website called answers in genesis?

I know that website is the atheists' nightmare, all you need to do is to google it up and see whether you will be able to find it there. Besides, try to understand the points raised before you decide criticise or refute.

OLAADEGBU:

When did you start commenting on your own thoughts.

I started doing that long before you were born

Who said that nothing ca create itself and that God created Himself? If you cannot comprehend what I wrote there I wonder how you think I contradicted myself. The saying that you can't think crooked and walk straight comes to mind.

Going by your own words. . . this is what you said about the universe

"Lets go to the 2nd law of thermodynamics that basically teaches that "the whole universe is losing usable energy for doing usable work."  This means that the usable energy in this universe is wearing down.  The universe as a whole is losing energy.  In other words, molecules as a whole are slowing down." 

If this is true then your god can not be eternal based on the 2nd law of thermodynamics because the bible says that your also looses considerable amount of energy. . .it is written in the bible that your god rested for a whole day after creating the world meaning he lost considerable amount of energy there by showing that he is not eternal according to the 2nd law of thermodynamics. . . . .

Therefore, if this universe was eternal we will be in what is called a "virtual heat death."

Same applies to your imaginary deity. . . . .

I know that website is the atheists' nightmare, all you need to do is to google it up and see whether you will be able to find it there. Besides, try to understand the points raised before you decide criticise or refute.

Atheist nightmare you call it . . . that is correct only in your dreams and in your deluded imaginations as usual. . . .

Wikipedia says that other creationist have criticized Ham(the owner of AIG) his methods and works as deliberately misleading his reader on science and other stuffs. . .From wikipedia

]Ham's beliefs and tactics have also been criticized by other Christians. Answers in Creation, an Old Earth creationist website, has called Ham willfully ignorant of evidence for an old earth and said he "deliberately misleads" his audiences on matters of both science and theology.[87]

So there you have it, other fellow creationist KNOW that ham is disingenuous and misleads people when it comes not only to science but also theology. . . as pointed out by other christians. . . .

muhsin:

There is only ONE true God.

That ONE true God did it.

Can you tell us how exactly allah created the universe from nothing?. . . . .

@ilosiwaju and mazaje,

Watch how these mathematicians who were formerly evolutionists but now biblical creationist use mathematics which is the language of science to confirm the Bible's account and disprove all your evolutionary fairytales, and they are not even AIG in case you start to get jittery and develop cold feet. Watch all the three parts and come to your own conclusion.

[flash=600,500]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33vCvxYOzYU&hl=en&fs=1&[/flash]

This videoclip is shows how the Bible's account in Genesis disproves the theory of evolution, crunching the numbers and hitting the bull's eye. Make sure you watch the three parts of this programme.

OLAADEGBU:

@ilosiwaju and mazaje,

Watch how these mathematicians who were formerly evolutionists but now biblical creationist use mathematics which is the language of science to confirm the Bible's account and disprove all your evolutionary fairytales, and they are not even AIG in case you start to get jittery and develop cold feet. Watch all the three parts and come to your own conclusion.

[flash=600,500]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33vCvxYOzYU&hl=en&fs=1&[/flash]

This videoclip is shows how the Bible's account in Genesis disproves the theory of evolution, crunching the numbers and hitting the bull's eye. Make sure you watch the three parts of this programme.

That's a funny video. 2.5 kids. Obviously they haven't been to Africa. 2.5 kids and a dog is the norm for european and american families and this hasn't always been the case even in Europe. Then you've got to take into account wars and epidemics. The Black death alone took out between one quarter and a third of Europes population in some places. The consider how many people died in the 2nd world war and then consider that there hasn't been a single century without 2 or three major population reducing wars. even if not world wars each local area had many wars. O boy the flaws are too many.

Those guys don't even sound like scientists. in fact I'm prepared to challenge that they are not scientists but they are lying.

@Pastor AIO,

Only if you had watched all the parts before you jumped to your conclusion you would have realised that all your objections had been taken into consideration.

Here are some more parts of the programme.

Earth's Population refutes evolution (continuation)

[flash=400,300]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY3c4NXPiZ4&hl=en&fs=1&[/flash][flash=400,300]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31t1C8K1r24&hl=en&fs=1&[/flash]

As you could see in the presentation (part 1 of Crunch the numbers), where real scientists have given us the facts of how the earth's population proves the accuracy of the Bible's account in the book of Genesis.

OLAADEGBU:

@Pastor AIO,

Only if you had watched all the parts before you jumped to your conclusion you would have realised that all your objections had been taken into consideration.

Here are some more parts of the programme.

Earth's Population refutes evolution (continuation)

[flash=400,300]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY3c4NXPiZ4&hl=en&fs=1&[/flash][flash=400,300]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31t1C8K1r24&hl=en&fs=1&[/flash]

As you could see in the presentation (part 1 of Crunch the numbers), where real scientists have given us the facts of how the earth's population proves the accuracy of the Bible's account in the book of Genesis.

OLAADEGBU When will you and your lying pseudo scientist stop lying for jesus?. . . . I laughed so hard at the outright stupidity and lies of this two pathetic goons up there they CLEARLY DO NOT KNOW what they are talking about. . . .

mazaje:

OLAADEGBU When will you and your lying pseudo scientist stop lying for jesus?. . . . I laughed so hard at the outright stupidity and lies of this two pathetic goons up there they CLEARLY DO NOT KNOW what they are talking about. . . .

I wonder what you were laughing at.   Do you care to share it with us?  If you watched the clip did you understand what was said?  If so, then be kind enough to share your objections with us, at least we will know that you know what you are talking about. Remember that you cannot think crooked and walk straight.

This is for some of you atheists that cannot, could not or will not watch the video clips due to laziness or impatience.

This is how Grant R. Jeffery summarised in his book, The Signature of God what those real scientist were saying in effect:

"The evolutionary scientists who believe that man existed for over a million years have an almost insurmountable problem.  Using the assumption of forty-three years for an average human generation, the population growth over a million years would produce 23,256 consecutive generations.  We calculate the expected population by starting with one couple one million years ago and use the same assumptions of a forty-three-year generation and 2.5 children per family. . . The evolutionary theory of a million years of growth would produce trillions x trillions x trillions x trillions of people that should be alive today on our planet.  To put this in perspective, this number is vastly greater than the total number of atoms in our vast universe.  If mankind had lived on earth for a million years, we would all be standing on enormously high mountains of bones from the trillions of skeletions of those who had died in past generations.  However, despite the tremendous archaeological and scientific investigation in the last two centuries, the scientists have not found a fraction of the trillions of skeletons predicted by the theory of evolutionary scientists."

If you still want to watch the conclusion of the videoclip go to the thread below;

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-154685.0.html

OLAADEGBU:

I wonder what you were laughing at.   Do you care to share it with us?  If you watched the clip did you understand what was said?  If so, then be kind enough to share your objections with us, at least we will know that you know what you are talking about.  Remember that you cannot think crooked and walk straight.

The pathetic and lying model they used assumes a constant population growth. This is a very false assumption because it doesn't take into account famine, war, plague, etc. What kind of model did they use that does not take into consideration things like death rate, technological innovations, limited space and limited resources? It also doesn't take into account the period of time before agricultural advancements were not as they are now when population growth would have been extremely low. . . . . . . There entire premise is a birth rate of 2.5 per family where did they get that from? . . . . . They both talked about the population starting from Noah and his family through inbreeding but we know that inbreeding ACTUALLY reduces population, so where did they get those numbers from? How did they automatically assume that every human that was born reached breeding age, was fertile and capable of giving birth or fathering a child, survived childbirth, their children survived, and no-one ever dies? How does the the lying model they used fit in with what we now know about disease and other stuffs?

The model they used doesn't even match up with what the bible even says at all. If the flood happened in 2350BC as they claim and the mythical exodus from egypt took place on 1446BC there wouldn't have been 600,000 people alive for Moses to lead according to their own theory. There would have only been  less than 70,000 or there about based on their own theory. . . . . . .So which is it, are they the ones that are lying or is it the bible that they are trying to advance that is lying if you are to apply their own model?

These guys are completely deluded 

@mazaje,

Instead of regurgitating the objections of pastor AIO who only limited his objection to the first video clip, why don't you carry out your own independent research and start by watching all the video clips to their conclusion and then see whether those so called objections have not been addressed before you come here to shoot at your foot.

OLAADEGBU:

@mazaje,

Instead of regurgitating the objections of pastor AIO who only limited his objection to the first video clip, why don't you carry out your own independent research and start by watching all the video clips to their conclusion and then see whether those so called objections have not been addressed before you come here to shoot at your foot.

I watched the whole video they surely entertained me because they made me laugh. . . . those guys are truly deluded that's all I know. . . . .

Olaadegbu, Your two lying "scientist" say that the account of the mythical flood took place when noah was about 600 years old, assuming the earth to have been created in 4004 BC according to their theory that would then place the Noah's flood at about 2400 BC which is about the same time as the Pyramids in Egypt were being built. Why is it that there is NO historical records of the flood at that period in time from the Egyptians, Greeks or Chinese even though  these civilizations were very much around and keeping records at that time? Why is there no record of the flood in those civilizations and why are the pyramids still standing? These civilizations couldn't have missed a flood that destroyed the whole planet no?