KAG:

This is adequate: "Space is the boundless, three-dimensional extent in which objects and events occur and have relative position and direction." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space)

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Very good. Note the word i highlighted above: "Boundless."

So you accept, as i earlier stated, that Space is infinite, and cannot be circumscribed by reference to the Big Bang only?

Does that shed some perspective on what the universe is expanding into?

Note the second bit: "three dimensional extent in which objects and events occur."

Could the Big Bang not be one such event that occured in space.?

Deep Sight:

.

Very good. Note the word i highlighted above: "Boundless."

So you accept, as i earlier stated, that Space is infinite, and cannot be circumscribed by reference to the Big Bang only?

First, a boundless space - or even universe - is not necessarily synonymous with infinite. Space will remain boundless whether the universe is infinite or not.

Second, the boundless properties of space doesn't mean it isn't contingent on inflation and the big bang.

Finally, as I have intimated earlier, the universe itself is boundless.

Does that shed some perspective on what the universe is expanding into?

No. Since you're assured the universe is expanding into something, why don't tell us what it is, define what that thing is, and give some kind of evidence or mathematical showing for that thing? And don't say space or you'd have started on the wrong footing.

Note the second bit: "three dimensional extent in which objects and events occur."

Could the Big Bang not be one such event that occured in space.?

No. See above.

KAG:

An expansion. Order can be produced from an explosion, though.

Thank you. I'm not sure why people think the big bang must have been an explosion.

Krayola -

Does it not occur to you that -

1. The Big Bang was tabled as an explosion. It is no fault of the skeptic if he seizes on that word, because that is the word the originators of the theory used. The very words "Big Bang" connote an explosion, not a quiet, calm "movement outwards."

2. Does it not occur to you that an "Expansion" would even more likely require a supernatural (read: extra-natural) cause, as an explosion can easily be rationalized as the result of extreme energy density (which is what the originators of the theory supposed).

Deep Sight:

   1. The Big Bang was tabled as an explosion. It is no fault of the skeptic if he seizes on that word, because that is the word the originators of the theory used. The very words "Big Bang" connote an explosion, not a quiet, calm "movement outwards."

It WAS, it isn't any more. Thats why we can't be jumping to conclusions. all these scientific theories are tentative, because even scientists know we have a lot to learn, and whatever we think we know is very very incomplete. Why force an answer on everything. What is the rush??!!

Deep Sight:

   2. Does it not occur to you that an "Expansion" would even more likely require a supernatural (read: extra-natural) cause, as an explosion can easily be rationalized as the result of extreme energy density (which is what the originators of the theory supposed).

NO. NO SUCH THING OCCURS TO ME

Deep Sight:

Krayola -

Does it not occur to you that -

1. The Big Bang was tabled as an explosion. It is no fault of the skeptic if he seizes on that word, because that is the word the originators of the theory used. The very words "Big Bang" connote an explosion, not a quiet, calm "movement outwards."

Funny thing, it wasn't the "originators of the theory" that coined the term big bang, it was someone in opposition to the theory - Fred Hoyle - that coined the term - dismissively, I might add.

KAG -

You are being somewhat dishonest here. In my village, it would be said that you are speaking from both sides of your mouth.

You were happy to define space as being boundless. When i pointed out that boundlessness connotes the infinity which i mentioned, you performed some interesting gymnastics in stating that "boundless" does not connote "infinity".

Pray tell, would you be so kind as to specify the differences between those words as apply to space? Specifically, explain how space can be boundless and not infinite. It would be interesting to watch you attempt to wriggle out of this one.

And oh, please be specific in your answer - your last attempt was vague and very escapist, you know that for sure.

What shocks me is your failure to appreciate the inherent meaning of the word boundless, which was the very word contained in the definition of space that you sourced. Boundless, for the avoidance of doubt, means without bounds - thus implying endless space.

Given this, what problem could you have with my assertion that space is infinite.

And more importantly - how in heaven can you describe space as boundless but not infinite.

Please help me out. I am confused.

Boundless, I think, means it isn't restricted (as far as we know). . . it does not mean it could never end for whateva reason. Infinite would mean it never ends no matter what.

[b] Quran chapter 47

1. Those who disbelieve [in the Oneness of Allah, and in the Message of Prophet Muhammad ], and hinder (men) from the Path of Allah (Islamic Monotheism), He will render their deeds vain .

2. But those who believe and do righteous good deeds, and believe in that which is sent down to Muhammad (), for it is the truth from their Lord, He will expiate from them their sins, and will make good their state.

3. That is because those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord. Thus does Allah set forth their parables for mankind.

4. So, when you meet (in fight Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives). Thereafter (is the time) either for generosity (i.e. free them without ransom), or ransom (according to what benefits Islam), until the war lays down its burden. Thus [you are ordered by Allah to continue in carrying out Jihad against the disbelievers till they embrace Islam (i.e. are saved from the punishment in the Hell-fire) or at least come under your protection], but if it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost,

5. He will guide them and set right their state.

6. And admit them to Paradise which He has made known to them (i.e. they will know their places in Paradise more than they used to know their houses in the world).

7. O you who believe! If you help (in the cause of) Allah, He will help you, and make your foothold firm.

8. But those who disbelieve (in the Oneness of Allah Islamic Monotheism), for them is destruction, and (Allah) will make their deeds vain.

9. That is because they hate that which Allah has sent down (this Qur'an and Islamic laws, etc.), so He has made their deeds fruitless.

10. Have they not travelled through the earth, and seen what was the end of those before them? Allah destroyed them completely and a similar (fate awaits) the disbelievers.

11. That is because Allah is the Maula (Lord, Master, Helper, Protector, etc.) of those who believe, and the disbelievers have no Maula (lord, master, helper, protector, etc.).

12. Certainly! Allah will admit those who believe (in the Oneness of Allah Islamic Monotheism) and do righteous good deeds, to Gardens under which rivers flow (Paradise), while those who disbelieve enjoy themselves and eat as cattle eat, and the Fire will be their abode.

13. And many a town, stronger than your town (Makkah) (O Muhammad ) which has driven you out We have destroyed. And there was none to help them.

14. Is he who is on a clear proof from his Lord, like those for whom their evil deeds that they do are beautified for them, while they follow their own lusts (evil desires)?

15. The description of Paradise which the Muttaqun (pious - see V.2:2) have been promised is that in it are rivers of water the taste and smell of which are not changed; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine delicious to those who drink; and rivers of clarified honey (clear and pure) therein for them is every kind of fruit; and forgiveness from their Lord. (Are these) like those who shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels?

16. And among them are some who listen to you (O Muhammad ) till, when they go out from you, they say to those who have received knowledge: "What has he said just now? Such are men whose hearts Allah has sealed, and they follow their lusts (evil desires).

17. While as for those who accept guidance, He increases their guidance, and bestows on them their piety.

18. Do they then await (anything) other than the Hour, that it should come upon them suddenly? But some of its portents (indications and signs) have already come, and when it (actually) is on them, how can they benefit then by their reminder?

19. So know (O Muhammad ) that La ilaha ill-Allah (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah), and ask forgiveness for your sin, and also for (the sin of) believing men and believing women. And Allah knows well your moving about, and your place of rest (in your homes).

20. Those who believe say: "Why is not a Surah (chapter of the Qur'an) sent down (for us)? But when a decisive Surah (explaining and ordering things) is sent down, and fighting (Jihad - holy fighting in Allah's Cause) is mentioned (i.e. ordained) therein, you will see those in whose hearts is a disease (of hypocrisy) looking at you with a look of one fainting to death. But it was better for them (hypocrites, to listen to Allah and to obey Him).[/b]

Abuzola:

[b] Quran chapter 47

1. Those who disbelieve [in the Oneness of Allah, and in the Message of Prophet Muhammad ], and hinder (men) from the Path of Allah (Islamic Monotheism), He will render their deeds vain .

2. But those who believe and do righteous good deeds, and believe in that which is sent down to Muhammad (), for it is the truth from their Lord, He will expiate from them their sins, and will make good their state.

3. That is because those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord. Thus does Allah set forth their parables for mankind.

4. So, when you meet (in fight Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives). Thereafter (is the time) either for generosity (i.e. free them without ransom), or ransom (according to what benefits Islam), until the war lays down its burden. Thus [you are ordered by Allah to continue in carrying out Jihad against the disbelievers till they embrace Islam (i.e. are saved from the punishment in the Hell-fire) or at least come under your protection], but if it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost,

5. He will guide them and set right their state.

6. And admit them to Paradise which He has made known to them (i.e. they will know their places in Paradise more than they used to know their houses in the world).

7. O you who believe! If you help (in the cause of) Allah, He will help you, and make your foothold firm.

8. But those who disbelieve (in the Oneness of Allah Islamic Monotheism), for them is destruction, and (Allah) will make their deeds vain.

9. That is because they hate that which Allah has sent down (this Qur'an and Islamic laws, etc.), so He has made their deeds fruitless.

10. Have they not travelled through the earth, and seen what was the end of those before them? Allah destroyed them completely and a similar (fate awaits) the disbelievers.

11. That is because Allah is the Maula (Lord, Master, Helper, Protector, etc.) of those who believe, and the disbelievers have no Maula (lord, master, helper, protector, etc.).

12. Certainly! Allah will admit those who believe (in the Oneness of Allah Islamic Monotheism) and do righteous good deeds, to Gardens under which rivers flow (Paradise), while those who disbelieve enjoy themselves and eat as cattle eat, and the Fire will be their abode.

13. And many a town, stronger than your town (Makkah) (O Muhammad ) which has driven you out We have destroyed. And there was none to help them.

14. Is he who is on a clear proof from his Lord, like those for whom their evil deeds that they do are beautified for them, while they follow their own lusts (evil desires)?

15. The description of Paradise which the Muttaqun (pious - see V.2:2) have been promised is that in it are rivers of water the taste and smell of which are not changed; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine delicious to those who drink; and rivers of clarified honey (clear and pure) therein for them is every kind of fruit; and forgiveness from their Lord. (Are these) like those who shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels?

16. And among them are some who listen to you (O Muhammad ) till, when they go out from you, they say to those who have received knowledge: "What has he said just now? Such are men whose hearts Allah has sealed, and they follow their lusts (evil desires).

17. While as for those who accept guidance, He increases their guidance, and bestows on them their piety.

18. Do they then await (anything) other than the Hour, that it should come upon them suddenly? But some of its portents (indications and signs) have already come, and when it (actually) is on them, how can they benefit then by their reminder?

19. So know (O Muhammad ) that La ilaha ill-Allah (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah), and ask forgiveness for your sin, and also for (the sin of) believing men and believing women. And Allah knows well your moving about, and your place of rest (in your homes).

20. Those who believe say: "Why is not a Surah (chapter of the Qur'an) sent down (for us)? But when a decisive Surah (explaining and ordering things) is sent down, and fighting (Jihad - holy fighting in Allah's Cause) is mentioned (i.e. ordained) therein, you will see those in whose hearts is a disease (of hypocrisy) looking at you with a look of one fainting to death. But it was better for them (hypocrites, to listen to Allah and to obey Him).[/b]

Deep Sight:

Boundless, for the avoidance of doubt, means without bounds - thus implying endless space.

Without bounds does not mean unending. It just means if it ended, it won't be because of a boundary/restriction. Infinite means it never ever ends, no matter what. At least that's what I think

^^^ Let KAG come and add his own, before we proceed.

But please try to put the word boundless in the context of SPACE, and you will see that there is nowhere (yes even outside the universe) where space does not exist, as it is somthing that cannot not be. Conceptualize and imagine it aright.

But before KAG returns with his gymnastics, let me pose this question to help our understanding -

Is Space something or is it nothingness.

Somethingness - it is a material within which we, and the universe, exist.

Nothingness - It is empty nothingness - space - and things happen within the nothingness.

@ deepsight. This stuff is science, not philosophy. We are discussing the "big bang".

I'm not a scientist so i'm pretty much learning this stuff as we go along, but u seem to be giving your own meaning to terms that have concrete definitions  as far as science goes.