Peolpe, below provides clear explanation on Jesus' position relative to God.

** For more info: http://www.watchtower.org/e/20050422/article_02.htm
However,below is an excerpt,

The Father—Superior to the Son
Jesus taught his disciples to pray: “Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.” Our heavenly Father, whose name is Jehovah, is described in the Bible as being superior to his Son. For example, Jehovah is “from everlasting to everlasting.” But the Bible says that Jesus is “the firstborn of every creature.” That Jehovah is greater than Jesus, Jesus himself taught when he said: “My Father is greater than I.” (Matthew 6:9; Psalm 90:1, 2; Colossians 1:15; John 14:28, King James Version) Yet, the Trinity doctrine holds that the Father and the Son are “equally God.”

The Father’s superiority over the Son, as well as the fact that the Father is a separate person, is highlighted also in the prayers of Jesus, such as the one before his execution: “Father, if you wish, remove this cup [that is, an ignominious death] from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.” (Luke 22:42) If God and Jesus are “one in essence,” as the Trinity doctrine says, how could Jesus’ will, or wish, seem different from that of his Father?—Hebrews 5:7, 8; 9:24.

Furthermore, if Jehovah and Jesus were the same, how could one of them be aware of things of which the other was not? Jesus, for instance, said regarding the time of the world’s judgment: “Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father.”—Mark 13:32.

Please do spend 5mins of your time gaining knowlegde that can impact our lives!!!

Thanks

TeeHay:

If Jehovah and Jesus were the same, how could one of them be aware of things of which the other was not? Jesus, for instance, said regarding the time of the world’s judgment: “Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father.”—Mark 13:32.

Because neither one of them exist, only in your imagination!

Yeah, u r rait. Jesus is a God in d bossom positn of the almighty God. The bible talks of an almighty GOD - Jehovah & a mighty God - Jesus christ. Jesus made us 2 undastand dat dia'l b a time he'l summit al authority 2 his fada. The bible @ corintians also said dat wen all creatn both in heavn n on earth had sumitd 2 d rulershp of Jesus, it'll b to d xceptn of his fada wu is greater dan him. D idea dt Jesus is prt of a trinity is nt biblical.

@TeeHay,

While your reasoning seems genuine, I think I know where your understanding is short.  You have failed to realise during Jesus' ministry that he sometimes refer to Himself as the Son of Man, and atimes as the Son of God.  The former refers to His humanity while the later refers to His deity.  Those scriptures you refer to can be rightly applied to His humanity.  Concerning His deity, the Bible says "whose going forths have been from of old, from everlasting".  His humanity was actually born in the manger by Mary, as the scrioture says: "A body have thou prepared for me,  "  That is where the Catholics are wrong in refering to Mary as the Mother of God. No she is not, she is the mother of Jesus.  These are two separate things.  God cannot have a mother.

Going into the meat of the Word, we realise that His humanity was anointed to become deity after resurrection from the dead.  You will find the refernces here:

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Here we see a conversation between the Godhead in heaven, so it is not strange to find Jesus talking to His Father while here on earth.

@angelz,

Yeah, you're rait. Jesus is a God in d bossom positn of the almighty God. The bible talks of an almighty GOD - Jehovah & a mighty God - Jesus christ. Jesus made us 2 undastand that dia'l b a time he'l summit al authority 2 his fada. The bible @ corintians also said that when all creatn both in heavn n on earth had sumitd to the rulershp of Jesus, it'll b to d xceptn of his fada wu is greater dan him. D idea dt Jesus is prt of a trinity is nt biblical.

You are just dabbling into semantics which really means nothing.  Here is what Isasih as to say about Jesus:

Isaiah 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Jesus Himself said "My Father and I are one."
That Jesus is subject to the Father is just a sign of authority.  That a woman is subject to a man does not mean that the man is better than the woman, or more intelligent than her.  It is just an arrangement of authority and Jesus in His humility subjects Himself to the authority of the Father.  That was the same thing He did in the Garden of Gethsemane where He subjected His will to the will of the Father.

[QUOTE]A LIFE WITHOUT CHRIST IS A LIFE FULL OF CRISIS![/QUOTE]

Hahaha

Are you for real?

Have you guys already forgotten about Ted Haggard?

Or about the early Christians doomed to an early death in the Coliseums of Rome?

Or the Christians currently being slaughtered in Darfur?

Or the Christians being persecuted all over the Middle East?

Or how about those wonderful guys in the Catholic church who harbour sexual feelings towards children- are they too living a life without 'crisis'?

[size=14pt]Jesus is in reality Horus the Sun God[/size]

The gospel story is an artificial, non-historical work. It has been fabricated from source materials that can be identified and traced to their incorporation into the gospels. There is not a particle of hard evidence that 'Jesus of Nazareth' ever existed

The Egyptian sun god Horus however,  who predated the Christ character by thousands of years, shares the following in common with mythical Jesus:

Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.

His earthly father was named "Seb" ("Joseph". Seb is also known as "Geb": "As Horus the Elder he, was believed to be the son of Geb and Nut." Lewis Spence, Ancient Egyptian Myths and Legends, 84.

He was of royal descent.

At age 12, he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years.
Horus was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iarutana (Jordan) by "Anup the Baptizer" ("John the Baptist", who was decapitated.

He had 12 disciples, two of whom were his "witnesses" and were named "Anup" and "Aan" (the two "Johns".
He performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised El-Azarus ("El-Osiris", from the dead.
Horus walked on water.

His personal epithet was "Iusa," the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father." He was thus called "Holy Child."
He delivered a "Sermon on the Mount" and his followers recounted the "Sayings of Iusa."
Horus was transfigured on the Mount.

He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, and resurrected.
He was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light," "Messiah," "God's Anointed Son," the "Son of Man," the "Good Shepherd," the "Lamb of God," the "Word made flesh," the "Word of Truth," etc.

He was "the Fisher" and was associated with the Fish ("Ichthys", Lamb and Lion.
He came to fulfill the Law.

Horus was called "the KRST," or "Anointed One."

Like Jesus, "Horus was supposed to reign one thousand years."


Furthermore, inscribed about 3,500 years ago on the walls of the Temple at Luxor were images of the Annunciation, Immaculate Conception, Birth and Adoration of Horus, with Thoth announcing to the Virgin Isis that she will conceive Horus; with Kneph, the "Holy Ghost," impregnating the virgin; and with the infant being attended by three kings, or magi, bearing gifts.

In addition, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis--the original "Madonna and Child."


So there we have it. Jesus is Horus!

Good job,reverend!
That is a look behind the scene,though it might just be too much for the average religious hangers - on to comprehend, let alone accept.

2000 years of european history is up to 95% dominated by christianity and it is soaked,drenched in blood.
Christians live in total oblivion of the true nature of their religion.Crisis free religion?Ha!

exu:

Hahaha

Are you for real?

Have you guys already forgotten about Ted Haggard?

Or about the early Christians doomed to an early death in the Coliseums of Rome?

Or the Christians currently being slaughtered in Darfur?

Or the Christians being persecuted all over the Middle East?

Or how about those wonderful guys in the Catholic church who harbour sexual feelings towards children- are they too living a life without 'crisis'?

mrpataki et al,

u claimed that jesus is God, very blasphemous statement and showed your level of ignorance.

now, to simplify issue, i will be posting a verse and seeking your response instead of giving out all verses.so if u r able to answer that i will post another verse in order to bring you out from your dark.

now lets start. i need a good explanation on this

1st Corinthian 11v3: but i want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is her husband and the head of christ is God.

I NEED EXPLANATION ON THE ABOVE VERSE, STARTING FROM THE HEAD OF EVERY MAN DOWN TO HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD.

@Reverend,

The gospel story is an artificial, non-historical work. It has been fabricated from source materials that can be identified and traced to their incorporation into the gospels. There is not a particle of hard evidence that 'Jesus of Nazareth' ever existed.

Your statement above is so untrue!  Jesus of Nazareth did exist and still exits!  There are enough historical accounts that corroborates this.  I will try and give a few.

Flavius Josephus

He was a Jewish scholar, comentator and historian that lived in the first century (37-100 AD).  It is interesting to note that he was not a disciple of Jesus nor a christian.  He recorded the life of Jesus as a historical figure that lived in Palestine, just a few years before him.  His (Josephus') many works are well recorded and published.  Google him and confirm for yourself.  However let me quote some things this historian wrote about Jesus (http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-18.htm and http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-20.htm).

In his book Antiquities of the Jews (written 93 AD), Book 18 Chapter 3 Section 3, Josephus wrote:

About this time came Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man. For he was a performer of paradoxical feats, a teacher of people who accept the unusual with pleasure, and he won over many of the Jews and also many Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned him to be crucified, those who had formerly loved him did not cease [to follow him], for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold, along with a myriad of other marvellous things concerning him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.

In Book 20 Chapter 9 Section 1, he wrote:

Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions];

If Jesus did not exist, how come there were historical references to his existence by a man that had no allegiance to him.  Is this just a coincidence?

Contemporaries of Jesus

The historical Jesus lived during the Roman Empire, in a region and city that have named Emperor, Governor, King, High Priest ect who others, including Josephus, also made mention of.  What do you make of Augustus Ceaser, Pontius Pilate, King Agrippa, Herod the Great etc whose reigns are documented.  Remember Pilate signed his execution!

What of his siblings of which James (mentioned by Josephus above) is one?  Would you know that they didn't even believe him until he died and resurrected.  This same James later wrote a book (included in the bible).

Luke, who wrote the same book of his name and Acts of the Apostles) was a historian who had been credited by historians of careful record.  Check what he wrote of Jesus.  There were other contemporaries who wrote about him.  The bible contains some of these compilations by John, Paul etc.  Are you saying all these are fictional writers?

Occurences during his life

There was a census during the reign of Ceasar Augustus and governor Quirinious of Syria.  This was during which Jesus was born.  Joseph and Mary had to go to their region to be taxed and counted.  (check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_of_Quirinius)  This was a historical fact.

There was a date of his crucifixion that occured around the feast of passover in Jerusalem Friday 14 in the month of Nissan).  There was a landslide (earthquake) around this time.  This is historical.

Dates

What do you say about existence of a man who was so significant that history records dates from his birth using AD (Anno Domini)?  Is this also a farce?

I could go on and on, but these should be sufficient.  The fact is Jesus did walked on this planet earth.  Reverend, won't you believe?

@ babs787 & The Jehova witness guy

According to the the Bible there is a GODHEAD,   Father, Son and Holy Spirit  ,  while the three are one and the same. They operate seperately,  Now this is a Mistery to the Mortal man because our brain cant comprehend this  and there also many things our brain cant comprend.  Yet the only way to understand this is TIME.  We are constantly living in the Past, Present and Future,   This three are one and teh same TIME, yet  the Past, Present & Future are seperate from each other (Think DEEP about TIME,,  Past Present and Future,
Some of the biggest confusion we get about some of the statement and actions of JESUS is this,     Jesus has two nature.  He is fully MAN & fully GOD,   When he came to earth he takes on the full qualities of Man. As MAN he eats suffers, gets angry, emotional,     This is why you see him being a kind shepard washing his diciples feet. His main purpose of comiing is to reconcile man to GOD through love, good eamples and kidness,   That was his reason for coming, So as Man you see him interacting with the Father,  Praying to him, asking him to take this cup away from him,    but as GOD (in Revelations) you see Everything in Heaven worshipping him, you see him claming he is ALHPA & OMEGA The same title for God teh father, You see him calling the Angels his.   

So as you compare the  Jesus  (Man)who came to earth to the one in Revelations,  You see him in another light, where everything in Heaven  worships the Father and Lamb (JESUS)  Jesus also called the Angles  MY ANGELS,  who  owns the Angels but GOD?  So why would Jesus called them his own if he is not GOD?,   Again while on earth when somebody worshipped  him saying "My Lord and MY GOD"why didnt he rebuke the person that he is not GOD?,   
To us a child is born, to us a son is given his name   is,
I. Emmanuel
2. Prince of Peace
3. Almighty GOD

There is also a passage in the Bible when GOD (The father) was coversing with JESUS CHRIST and GOD refared to Jesus as GOD ( I will post the passage),   Again Jesus told his diciples that by looking at him they are looking at GOD (Indicating they are one and the same though Separate),    In the bigining when GOD the father said let US create man in OUR image and likeness who was he talking to??,  This is clearly the GODHEAD interacting with each other,   I can post so many things in the Bible to show that Jesus is GOD, but dont forget that most of the things Jesus was saying and teaching, he was doing as an annointed MAN the decendant of David,  not as GOD creator of the universe,  Compare the JESUS is REVELATION to the one in the gospels,    I mean the beloved diciple (JOHN) who cuddles near him  when Jesus was a MAN on earth was so frightened at his presence that he fell on the floor in fright.  Jesus declared there I am Alhpa & Omega    the same title GOD (the father) used for himself,
Finally GOD (the father) called him self I AM
Jesus used the same for himself when he said before Abraham was I AM

I read the King James Version of the bible and this is the truth contained in it,   There is a,  GODHEAD

1. FATHER
2. SON
3. HOLY SPIRIT  (Yes he is a person and not an active force like some believes cause the Bible always use HE to decribe the holy spirit who is also known as Spirt of GOD & the Comforter) These three are one and the same like TIME, but also seperate. You will also arrive at this truth by reading teh complete Bible and not just the four Gospels cause Jesus was all over the Bible and not just only in teh Gospel

I guess Forrest Gump must have existed too.

I mean, all the events surrounding his 'life' actually took place.

As to your use of Josephus as validation that Jesus existed. Here you have a Jew claiming the Jesus was the 'Christ'.
This is a Jew who never converted to Christianity.

The Josephus quote that you 'found' is one that has been proven to be highly dubious. This is a guy who would write endlessly about the most trivial matters but yet could only find time to write a few lines about the supposed saviour of the world.

A number of scholars have suggested that Josephus' description of Jesus is an example of the early Church's fondness for forgery. Maybe that's something you'd like to look into.

As for your claim that the gospels are proof of Jesus' existence, they were all written a long time after Jesus was said to have lived.

khamileo,

u saw my question up. also i never go aganst your calling jesus GOD but am asking you to explain the below verse

1st Corinthian 11v3: but i want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is her husband and the head of christ is God.

I NEED EXPLANATION ON THE ABOVE VERSE, STARTING FROM THE HEAD OF EVERY MAN IS CHRIST DOWN TO HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD.

@exu,

It will be an insult to the name of Jesus if I had used Josephus as a validation of His existence.  I merely made reference to his writings and what he wrote about Jesus since he is not a disciple nor a Christian.  He had no reason to lie about someone he didn't believe in anyway.

What is your definition of a long time in historical accounts?  And what forms the basis of authenticity of a historical artefact?  No scholar/historian worth his name will call someone's account less than 50 years long.  Josephus lived less than 4 years after Jesus.  Some of the writers of the new testament were his contemporaries that lived during his time.  They wrote independently and they all agreed.  These were all eyewitnesses accounts!  You can't fault that in history.

What's more?  Thousands and hundreds of years before he was born, there were prophecies concerning his birth, life and death by different people that lived at different times.

After his death and resurrection, people wrote about him.  If all these were one huge joke, don't you think it would have been stopped by the Roman authorities and posterity.  Farces never survive for long.  There have been many after and they didn't survive.

Lastly on this my friends, his disciples were different characters of people from different backgrounds.  They only stayed with him 3 odd years.  They were disenchanted when he was killed and were in hiding.  But events after gave them boldness and they all came out of their hiding to testify of what they had seen and heard, despite heavy opposition and torture by the Roman Empire.  They were adults that couldn't be deceived or bribed because they had seen and heard and were convinced.

It wasn't easy living in the age they did, proclaiming the saving power of a Saviour.  They were sawn into two, fed to lions, crucified, burnt alive etc because they couldn't deny the One who came to die for them.  Such was the power of conviction and the integrity of these men and women that horrible death meant nothing to them!  These handful number spread the word of what happened.  This is the gospel!

Tell me will you die for someone who did not exist?  Will you leave your profession to follow some fables that meant death for the adherents?  Will you lose everything you had worked for when you knew you were defending a falsehood?  Will you allow your children to be used to feed dangerous animals in a Roman amphitheatre because you won't deny someone that didn't exist? I don't think so!

God bless you all.

@babs747,

1st Corinthian 11v3: but i want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is her husband and the head of christ is God.

The scripture you have above is that of authority.  I have said before that while the man may be in authority over the woman, he is not in essence a greater or better being than she is (Never mind Muhammad's balderdash that women have less intelligence than men).  It is only sensible and according to the Godhead's divine plan that final authority is left with the Father.  It is like the story of creation where we see the plurality of the Godhead in the pronunciations: "Let Us, ".  In the creation of the woman however, we find the Father saying "I will, " showing that He kind of stepped-out from the unity of the God-head to create the woman based on His will. Jesus on the other hand always subjects His will to that of the Father as we see in the garden of Gethsemane.

So while I have provided an explanation which I doubt you will understand, can you please explain to us why a part of the Jewish oral tradition (the Mishnah) was lifted word for word and included in your Koran?  Do you realise that the koranic verse in 5:32 that says: "And for this reason, we ordained for the children of Israel that whoever has killed a single human without just cause, it is as if he has killed the entire humankind." was lifted from the "Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, 37a."  So much for Muhammad's inability to read or worse still, the divine inspiration of its source.  I doubt the real Angel Gabriel will be involved in plagiarism!!!

@Analytical

I found this in relation to your Josephus quote.

However, John Dominic Crossan and K. H. Rengstorff have noted that the passage has many internal indicators that seem to be inconsistent with the rest of Josephus' writing and with what is known about Josephus, leading them to think that part or all of the passage may have been an interpolation. Michael L. White argued: "The parallel sections of Josephus's Jewish War make no mention of Jesus, and Christian writers as late as the third century CE who made extensive use of Josephus's Antiquities show no awareness of it. Had it been there, they would have gladly used it for proof of Christian claims.

@exu,

You will do well to read what others think about the same writings and about Josephus' reference to James the brother of Jesus before making your post. I don't expect all scholars to agree. They never have on any one topic under the sun! Consider also the other witnesses too many to ignore. At least you are beginning to re-examine your stand. Please continue and may Christ give you light.

Cheers.

What other witnesses?

I've been looking at all the 'evidence' regarding Jesus for most of my life and am yet to find anything conclusive.

I imagine the church has had the same problem, over 2,000 years. Hence a reliance on faith that is more pronounced than (for arguments sake) Islam where the existence of Muhammad isn't in doubt.

How come the same Muhammed spoke so glowingly of Jesus if he did not exist? Was he also deceived by the 'angel Jubril'? But you believed what he said about Jesus, even at least 570 years after Jesus but couldn't believe accounts of eyewitnesses and people that lived less than 10 years after!

If you search the right places without prejudice, you will definitely see the historical accounts of Jesus. I just typed "historical account of Jesus" on Google and the very first of the search brought up what is below and you have been searching your entire life?

Non biblical accounts of
New Testament events and/or people

Following is a list of extra biblical (outside of the Bible) references of biblical events, places, etc. The list is not exhaustive but is very representative of what is available.

Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?, a Jewish historian) mentions John the Baptist and Herod - Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 5, par. 2

"Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness."

Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions Jesus - Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 3, par. 3.

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

There is debate among scholars as to the authenticity of this quote since it is so favorable to Jesus. For more information on this, please see Regarding the quotes from the historian Josephus about Jesus

Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions James, the brother of Jesus - Antiquities, Book 20, ch. 9.

"Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done."

Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions Ananias the High Priest who was mentioned in Acts 23:2

Now as soon as Albinus was come to the city of Jerusalem, he used all his endeavors and care that the country might be kept in peace, and this by destroying many of the Sicarii. But as for the high priest, Ananias (25) he increased in glory every day, and this to a great degree, and had obtained the favor and esteem of the citizens in a signal manner; for he was a great hoarder up of money

Acts 23:2, "And the high priest Ananias commanded those standing beside him to strike him [Paul] on the mouth."

Tacitus (A.D. c.55-A.D. c.117, Roman historian) mentions "christus" who is Jesus - Annals 15.44

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."

Ref. from http://classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/annals.mb.txt

Thallus Circa AD 52, eclipse of the sun. Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. His writings are only found as citations by others. Julius Africanus who wrote about AD 221 mentioned Thallus' account of an eclipse of the sun.

"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun."

Is this a reference to the eclipse at the crucifixion? Luke 23:44-45, "And it was now about the sixth hour, and darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45 the sun being obscured; and the veil of the temple was torn in two."

The oddity is that Jesus' crucifixion occurred at the Passover which was a full moon. It is not possible for a solar eclipse to occur at a full moon. Note that Julius Africanus draws the conclusion that Thallus' mentioning of the eclipse was describing the one at Jesus' crucifixion. It may not have been.

Julius Africanus, Extant Writings, XVIII in the Ante–Nicene Fathers, ed. by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973), vol. VI, p. 130. as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

Pliny the Younger mentioned Christ. Pliny was governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. Pliny wrote ten books. The tenth around AD 112.

"They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food—but food of an ordinary and innocent kind."

Pliny, Letters, transl. by William Melmoth, rev. by W.M.L. Hutchinson (Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1935), vol. II, X:96 as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

The Talmud

"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!"

Gal. 3:13, "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree."

Luke 22:1, "Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is called the Passover, was approaching. 2And the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how they might put Him to death; for they were afraid of the people."

This quotation was taken from the reading in The Babylonian Talmud, transl. by I. Epstein (London: Soncino, 1935), vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a, p. 281 as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

Lucian (circa 120-after 180) mentions Jesus. Greek writer and rhetorician.

"The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property."

Lucian, The Death of Peregrine, 11–13, in The Works of Lucian of Samosata, transl. by H.W. Fowler and F.G. Fowler, 4 vols. (Oxford: Clarendon, 1949), vol. 4, as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

Though Lucian opposed Christianity, he acknowledges Jesus, that Jesus was crucified, that Christians worship him, and that this was done by faith.

How come the same Muhammed spoke so glowingly of Jesus if he did not exist?  Was he also deceived by the 'angel Jubril'?  But you believed what he said about Jesus, even at least 570 years after Jesus but couldn't believe accounts of eyewitnesses and people that lived less than 10 years after!

Don't make the mistake of assuming that because I acknowledge Muhammed existed that I follow his 'teachings'?

I don't believe in angels.

I don't believe in prophets.

And I don't believe that an organisation that needed to fabricate evidence to justify it's existence 2,000 years ago will now, all of a sudden, present credible historical evidence.

All,

So much for the existence of Jesus or not.  He lived and is still living!  That you believe this or not doesn't change the fact. Shall we go back to what this thread is all about:  Is Jesus God?  Yes He is!

Just to add to what Khamelion and DayoD posted above, may I also add these:

He said so himself

John10:
30 I and my Father are one

He used the revered name of God (I AM) for himself

John 8:
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

The religious institution could not take it (just like some on this forum!)

John 10:
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

God called him God

Hebrews1:8
8 But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

David acknowledged it

Psalm 110:1
1. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

He is worshipped as God

Hebrews 1:6
6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."

John 20:28-29
28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

Phillipians 2
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross

@TayoD: No one in the right spiritual frame of mind and soul, will read and believe a book that has no author. In everybook of knowledge, there is always an identifiable author. Unfortunately, the Christian Bible is unique in this matter. None of its books has a clear author. The best you have is the phrasiology of "according to". You wonder how many people between the actual writer, however obscured he/she is and the name that is put forward as the narrator! Since the Bible was not written down as the actions were taking place, we all know that the longer we wait to pendown the story, the more true information concerning it we may lose. There is an exercise that the school of law engage its students; the professor whisper a story to the first student and instructs that it be whispered to the next student and so on. The last student whispers it back to the professor. The all write it down and read in aloud. Guess what? In every situation, in every school, in every semester, the initial story whispered by the professor, is always completely different from the final story whispered back to the professor. This is the analogy of your Bible. However, God, Who is the Holder of True Wisdom has allowed reminant of truth to remain. We know this by finding the similarity of that truth in the Qur'an.

@Analytical: If you use the statement of Muhammad (AS), what was revealed to him in the Qur'an to justify the existence of Isa bin Mariam (AS), who you claim to be the Bible Jesus, you are right. However you will see that Muhammad (AS) said that Jesus spoke as a child the only time he defended his mother from the accusation of adultery/fornication leveled against her by the leadeship of her people. Further, you will realise that the Qur'an categorically, in the greatest emphasis that Jesus was no more than a prophet of God. That he was sent to the children of Israel. That he was not and part of God and never said that he should be worshipped and ascribed any importance more than the mere prophet that he was. Read it all and stop your pick and chose from the Qur'an.

Since the Bible did not have a true original  and not even an original copy is available, the best the christians are able to provide is greek manuscript. We all agreed that Jesus did not receive any revelation in El-greco language! We also know that the Bible is always changing and going, always through metamophosis. In so many generations, there is always an update to it. In some cases, some books are completely removed, as in the protestant Bible versus its mother source, the catholic Bible. I am not even taliking about the several othodox sects! Then, you have the Jehovah witness version, completely different from all of this and then you have the Latter day saints Bible, also. These are just that I know and I am not even a christian! I often ask my people on Nairaland a sarcastic question about the Bible: Which Bible amongst these many is the real Bible? Will the real Bible, please stand up so that we can see you? When you have the real Bible, then we can discuss it and compare it side by side topic by topic with Qur'an. I will give the christians one thing though, by and large, they are good people. The involve in charitable causes, but maybe the effort of it is not based in seeking the reward from God alone. The Muslims will be charitable seeking the mercy and reward from The Creator.

You may find truth from a Hindu, for example. The truth that you find from them is from God the Almighty. But they may believe in many gods with a godhead. It kinda like the christians! You have represenation, using the imagery of the Cross, some the stature of the virgin mary, etc. To write that since preservation of life is written in the jewish text and then appearing in the Qur'an, amounts to Qur'an as a book that plagirized shows ignorance, at best on your part. Even a mad man knows that killing of human being is a terrible thing. Before revealed what He revealed to Musa (AS), killing was frowned upon by God. Do you remember the first set of twins of our father Adam and his wife Awah (AS to them, both)?  TayoD, be serious and let us use our brain and stop this foolishness. Your opinion should be sound, yet you may never accept Islam. I will not write or suggest nonsensical about the Bible, yet I will never become a christian, INshaAllah. All my writing will be to open the eyes of christians about their way, if Allah the Almighty wills it so. Isa bin Mariam (AS), is the prophet that christian claims to be Jesus, their God. Jesus never said he was God. The verse that Babs787 quoted from the Bible, should help a person who has any faith in his/her heart begin to see that claiming Jesus to be God is indeed wrong! This will lead such a person to begin to think about God, instead of the capout mindset that blood being spilled and the numbo jumbo okey doke chi wan chu of resurrection of short changed, terribly calculated after three days is pure madness. Please be for real, man.

@ Exu,

And I don't believe that an organisation that needed to fabricate evidence to justify it's existence 2,000 years ago will now, all of a sudden, present credible historical evidence.

and neither should you therefore believe all those organisations who fabricate evidence to justify his non existence 2,000 years ago!

That you go and read their jargons from.

God Bless you, as you choose not believe anything from now on.

@Haji Olabowale,
Thank God you are not a lawyer because you will make an awful lawyer like Danny DeVito in one of his films.
So, if we use your arguement of the association between accuracy of pen-down history and time from occurence; which one is more credible: between the eye-witness accounts of Jesus's ministry documented under inspiration of the Spirit of God and the story about a certain Isa, whom you claim is Jesus although not, written by Muhammed almost 600-900 years after the occurence? According to your 'whispered story' theory if we remove the common denominator of "inspiration" from both accounts, then the quranic account is less than credible. But we know the inspired authors of the Bible were inspired by the 'promised' spirit of God; but muhammed received his own inspiration while hallucinating inside a cave, probably induced by a septicaemic or disseminated sexually trasnmitted infection.  Indeed your statement about Jesus talking as a baby and defending his mother is a figment of imagination of a deluded sex-pervert you called your prophet. When Jesus Christ said "It is finished" on the cross, it put paid to the need for any further prophet again because, from then on, we have direct access to God the Father through faith in Jesus the Son. So, Muhammed is nothing other than a fraud. Stop being deceived by lies, and seek wisdom!!!

olabowale:

@TayoD:  
(1) the professor whisper a story to the first student and instructs that it be whispered to the next student and so on. The last student whispers it back to the professor. The all write it down and read in aloud. Guess what? In every situation, in every school, in every semester, the initial story whispered by the professor, is always completely different from the final story whispered back to the professor.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
(2) You may find truth from a Hindu, for example. The truth that you find from them is from God the Almighty.
instead of the capout mindset that blood being spilled and the numbo jumbo okey doke chi wan chu of resurrection of short changed, terribly calculated after three days is pure madness. Please be for real, man.

In addition, well you might be correct here and I agree with you: the truth that you find from the hindu is from "your" shared god. But their god or your allah is not the God who called Himself the Almighty, i.e. the All Powerful God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. By the way, what's all the 'slangs' at the bottom, c'mon stop that, uncle Olabowale. grow up.

and neither should you therefore believe all those organisations who fabricate evidence to justify his non existence 2,000 years ago!

That you go and read their jargons from.

Which organisations have been fabricating evidence to justify his 'non existence'?


Also, how would one fabricate evidence in order to make it look as though someone didn't exist?

@exu, this is exactly what the writers you read have been doing, trying to prove the non-existence!

@olabowale, I didn't use Muhammad to justify the existence of Jesus.  For goodness sake, Muhammad lived 570 years after Jesus!  For comparison sake, it's like someone living today trying to tell us who Shakespare was and how he lived 442 years ago!  Will you rather believe him more than the account of Shakespare's contemporaries and friends that ate with him and travelled with him?  Islam merely tried to acknowledge the historicity and existence of Jesus, but deny the divinity, thereby giving rise to a Isa who is different from the real Jesus.  What a contradiction and deception!

In fact the beauty of it all, which you said as well, is that the Bible was not written by one man.  The writers were many and varied as you could have them,  some were kings, some servants, some prophets, some fishermen, some lived thousands of years from each other, but all agreed on the divinity of Christ.  This is to tell you that there was the same Divine Author who worked through them all through the ages and hence the consistency.

The Word of God, who is God Himself, is the One that came in the form of man as Jesus, the saviour of the world.  So He was Son of man and Son of God, while he walked the earth.  He has always existed even before the creation of the world, because He created all things.  Please check the many references above an the ones below:

Colosians 2:9
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Isaiah 9:6
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John Chapter 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.

3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.

8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.

9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"

16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.

17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.


These were written by 3 different people!  Won't you believe in this good news-  That Jesus came to offer himself as a sacrifice for the sins of the world, including yours and mine.  All you require is to accept and believe he did- Really, that's all!  He will then give you the right to become his child, check vs. 12 above.  I pray you do.

Here I rest my case.  Love you all.

The writers I was talking about didn't fabricate evidence to prove his non-existence.

They simply stated that the evidence presented was false.

There's a big difference.

One is misleading and dishonest, the other isn't.

Hmm! In fact I don't have anything to add again. Analytical have said it all. May God bless you and I pray that the spirit will continue to touch and minister to the likes of Reverend and Exu. Amen.

Oluchia:

Hmm! In fact I don't have anything to add again. Analytical have said it all. May God bless you and I pray that the spirit will continue to touch and minister to the likes of Reverend and Exu. Amen.

and the 400,000 people who died in the Tsunami

Oh yes, God is real and looks after us all!

@olabowale,

When you have the real Bible, then we can discuss it and compare it side by side topic by topic with Qur'an.

perhaps you need to ask your allah to answer this question for you. he is the one that seems to have misplaced copies of the Gospel, torah and the Prophets he calims he sent down. What a careless deity that is. I hope he gets to be more careful with the souls of his followers. as for me, I cannot entrust my soul to him.

I am not surprsied by the side by side comparison you plan to do. Even your Allah plagiarised some Jewish oral tradition which he pit down into the koran withouf acknowledging the source. Or could it be that Abu Bakr left out the footnotes that allh provided when he was compiling the koran? Or maybe the footnotes are in the oroiginal copies of the koran that he gathered and burnt because they differ significantly from the one he sanctioned. Questions begging for answers.

Hello People: I saw this topic just today and I'm thrilled at the reply of so many hence am making my own comment. A lot of post hear admits Jesus is God but at the end of the day contradicts themselves by saying Jesus, Holy Spirit and God are three in one, well, there is no such thing as that, I've been born again for just few years now and by revelation I have come to know that of a truth "Jesus is God" and why so many are still finding it difficult to understand is simple and I shall try to offer some help here.

1. Jesus Christ is God.

2. The bible is a living proof to that.

3. God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit are not three in One

4. God is one as three (Father, Son and Holy Ghost)

Let me try to explain point number 4:

Immagine that President Olusegun Obasanjo is

a. the Vice Chancellor of Unilag

b. the pastor of a church

c. the President of Nigeria.

Now, he is one person but functioning in three offices and because he's a common VC does not make him a lesser than the President. So, when students of Unilag wants to address him, they say the VC, and when members of his church would address him as pastor, and the people of his country would address him as Mr. Presido, same applies here

God as the father, heavenly father, we all address HIM as heavenly father
God the son, the office of the sacrificial lamb, My Lord Jesus
and the Holy Ghost, this is the time God needed to function as the Holy Spirit, because gone were the days HE functioned as the son Jesus, do you guys understand that now?

SO, there are so many ways to prove this,

in Jn 14:1-10,

Jesus asked Philip, you have been with me for years and you still don't,

also, somewhere again, HE said, I and my father are one

when Abraham almost slaughtered Isaac, Isaaac asked that where is the lamb, and Abraham replied, the LOrd shalll provide HIMSELF (not a lamb for himself),

There are so many more folks, and incase anybody is finding it hard to understand, never mind, its takes revelation to get, for the things of the spirit are foolishness to the canal minded.

stevolala:

Hello People: I saw this topic just today and I'm thrilled at the reply of so many hence am making my own comment. A lot of post hear admits Jesus is God but at the end of the day contradicts themselves by saying Jesus, Holy Spirit and God are three in one, well, there is no such thing as that, I've been born again for just few years now and by revelation I have come to know that of a truth "Jesus is God" and why so many are still finding it difficult to understand is simple and I shall try to offer some help here.

1. Jesus Christ is God.

2. The bible is a living proof to that.

3. God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit are not three in One

4. God is one as three (Father, Son and Holy Ghost)

Let me try to explain point number 4:

Immagine that President Olusegun Obasanjo is

a. the Vice Chancellor of Unilag

b. the pastor of a church

c. the President of Nigeria.

Now, he is one person but functioning in three offices and because he's a common VC does not make him a lesser than the President. So, when students of Unilag wants to address him, they say the VC, and when members of his church would address him as pastor, and the people of his country would address him as Mr. Presido, same applies here

God as the father, heavenly father, we all address HIM as heavenly father
God the son, the office of the sacrificial lamb, My Lord Jesus
and the Holy Ghost, this is the time God needed to function as the Holy Spirit, because gone were the days HE functioned as the son Jesus, do you guys understand that now?

@ Steveolala,
You have just explained it yourself, so why do you find it hard to believe in the Trinity?
He functions as God the Father, God the Son as well God the Holyspirit.

Congrats on your newfound faith!!!