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8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. - Culture - Nairaland

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8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by Eastlink(m): 7:44am On Sep 29, 2016
The Ijaw claim to the ownership of Ndoki and Ibaniland as being peddled by Ijaw people here on nairaland is built on falsehood and historical distortion. The closest connection the Ndoki and Ibani have with any other group in the south is Igbo and never Ijaw. Here are five historical reasons why the Ndoki and their Ibani kins are Igbo in origin.

1) The Ndoki's are not Ijaws in diaspora as construed by some Izons, but pure Igbo sub-group, with related ancestry with the Ngwa and other southern Igbo groups.

2) According to a section of history, the Ndoki's were said to be the original founders of Ibani. The first Bonny King and founder Ndoli Okpara was said to be an Ndoki man which thus wipes off Ijaw claims of establishing the kingdom and validating it's Igbo origin. Other Kings as Asimini, Alagbarinye were of pure Ndoki (Igbo) ancestry. The Ijaws only arrived Ibani as potters and have no legitimate claim to the founding of Ibani, thus are now bent on changing the last Igbo link (Ndoki) to Ijaws to make their fraudulent claims valid.

3)Ibani family names such as Opunsunju, Epelle, Jaja, Owujie, Ubogu, Jumbo etc are not Ijoid names but Ibani (Igbo). The Ijaw family names which now forms part of Ibani livestyle came as a result of Ijaw interaction and migration to the area.

4)The tieing of two wrappers as well as as the etibo and woko are not Ijaw attires. The attires were introduced by the early Portuguese to communities within the coast. The Ibani and Ndoki just like the Itshekiri, Urhobos, Efiks and other coastal tribes were among the first to put on the attires, because of their early contact with the white men. Other tribes followed suit and today it has become a cultural accepted practice by people of the lower niger area, Igbo inclusive.

5) The Ibani music has never been Ijoid but rather Igboid. The Ndoki's of Asa who were the orginal founders took the Igbo musical drums to the coast of Bonny. Festival such as the Nwaotam boat regatta is a testimony of early Igbo cultural influence, the same goes for the Owuogbo (Owu) festival still celebrated till this day in parts of Orlu Imo state.

6) The language been spoken today in Ndoki and Ibani is a dialect of the Igbo language mutually intelligible to both groups.

7) The earliest Igbo language Bible was first translated to Ibani(Igbo) dialect and used as a medium to propagate christianity in Igboland. Till today, the Bonny-Opobo language is considered a dialect of Igbo by linguist just like Ngwa and Etche.

8.) The Ndoki and Ibani (Bonny and Opobo) are blood relatives sharing both ancentral and cultural link in common. Thus the both groups are associated with Igbo.

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Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by EasternActivist: 7:58am On Sep 29, 2016
I will save this thread for future use...

Thanks op

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Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by ChinenyeN(m): 5:07pm On Sep 29, 2016
There is much to be said here, and I do not have the time to touch on them all. I will however, touch briefly on two things... #3 & #6.

#3. I am not sure how familiar you are with Ibani egere, but your assertion that the Ibani family names are not Ijaw is incorrect. More especially, those names you specifically listed are explicitly Ijaw or Ijaw-derived.

#6. This point (i.e. Bonny having among the earliest Igbo Bible translations) is not sufficient enough to buttress your premise (i.e. Ijaw having no claim to Ndoki). If you look at it in context, the simple reason for why Bonny had among the earliest Igbo Bible translations is because Europeans could easily access them. If you review Bible translation history in southern Nigeria, you will find that Onitsha and Bonny were among the first, simply because Onitsha could be easily reached via the Niger and Bonny is on the coast. That is all. It does not prove anything beyond that.

I will be back later for the rest.

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Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by ChinenyeN(m): 3:45am On Oct 01, 2016
Alright. Let me come and finish addressing the rest of your post.

#1. While it is true that Ndoki villages have ancestral relations with other Igbo-speaking culture groups, the existence of Ijaw elements in Ndoki as well as historical relations with Ijaw cannot be denied. As a case in point, one of the Ndoki village groups has some Ijaw-derived place names. Even more so the name "Ndoki" is a name adopted from an Ijaw expression. However, you are correct. Ndoki are not Ijaw in diaspora.

#2. Opara Ndoli was neither a king nor a founder. Opara Ndoli was simply an Opara (eldest male member). As was the culture of the people, Ndoli, being an Opara, held sacred authority and served as a custodian of the community. It was his responsibility to interpret the communal laws, settle disputes and officiate any of the ceremonies, rights and rituals of the people. Currently, oral traditions state that Opara Ndoli never made it to the final destination. He died at the last sojourn. Actual kingship did not manifest in Bonny until the time of Asimini. It was during their interaction with the Portuguese that Asimini effectively became the first king of Bonny. Or, perhaps it is better stated that the shift towards monarchy began at this point, and Bonny's history as a kingdom starts here.

#3. I already covered that earlier.

Your item #4 is duplicated (you have two #4s). So I will simply answer as such:

#4.1 No problem here. The information is correct.

#4.2 Today's Ibani music is undoubtedly Ijaw. At the very least, Ibani music is dominated by Ijaw cultural themes, from the style of play to the instruments used. Bonny's current musical culture is heavily connected with the canoe house system that was introduced some time later in Bonny history. In fact, one might be able to say that the music culture is as a result of the canoe house system. However, details about the music culture prior to the introduction of the canoe house system are scant and not enough to develop an idea of what music was like in Bonny's earliest days. Nwutam was also introduced later in Bonny history. By the time it was introduced, in fact, the canoe house system was already firmly in place. Hence why the Ibani Nwutam performance is rather distinct, while in the Ngwa-Ndoki axis, Nwutam is just a masquerade. Owuogbo is not an Igbo festival. Its origin is Ijaw. The owu-named performances you see in Abia and Imo are as a result of cultural diffusion.

#5. Bonny and Opobo are both Ijaw-speaking and Igbo-speaking populations (Opobo leans more heavily toward the Igbo-speaking side).

#6. I already addressed that.

#5 (you repeated your numbering again) This is actually not a lie. It's a truthful statement. BUT... it does not do much to further your premise since Ibani is just as much connected to Igbo as it is to Ijaw.

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Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by Marcelini(m): 10:03am On Oct 01, 2016
ChinenyeN:
Alright. Let me come and finish addressing the rest of your post.

#1. While it is true that Ndoki villages have ancestral relations with other Igbo-speaking culture groups, the existence of Ijaw elements in Ndoki as well as historical relations with Ijaw cannot be denied. As a case in point, one of the Ndoki village groups has some Ijaw-derived place names. Even more so the name "Ndoki" is a name adopted from an Ijaw expression. However, you are correct. Ndoki are not Ijaw in diaspora.

#2. Opara Ndoli was neither a king nor a founder. Opara Ndoli was simply an Opara (eldest male member). As was the culture of the people, Ndoli, being an Opara, held sacred authority and served as a custodian of the community. It was his responsibility to interpret the communal laws, settle disputes and officiate any of the ceremonies, rights and rituals of the people. Currently, oral traditions state that Opara Ndoli never made it to the final destination. He died at the last sojourn. Actual kingship did not manifest in Bonny until the time of Asimini. It was during their interaction with the Portuguese that Asimini effectively became the first king of Bonny. Or, perhaps it is better stated that the shift towards monarchy begin at this point, and Bonny's history as a kingdom begins here.

#3. I already covered that earlier.

Your item #4 is duplicated (you have two #4s). So I will simply answer as such:

#4.1 No problem here. The information is correct.

#4.2 Today's Ibani music is undoubtedly Ijaw. At the very least, Ibani music is dominated by Ijaw cultural themes, from the style of play to the instruments used. Bonny's current musical culture is heavily connected with the canoe house system that was introduced some time later in Bonny history. In fact, one might be able to say that the music culture is as a result of the canoe house system. However, details about the music culture prior to the introduction of the canoe house system are scant and not enough to develop an idea of what music was like in Bonny's earliest days. Nwutam was also introduced later in Bonny history. By the time it was introduced, in fact, the canoe house system was already firmly in place. Hence why the Ibani Nwutam performance is rather distinct, while in the Ngwa-Ndoki axis, Nwutam is just a masquerade. Owuogbo is not an Igbo festival. Its origin is Ijaw. The owu-named performances you see in Abia and Imo are as a result of cultural diffusion.

#5. Bonny and Opobo are both Ijaw-speaking and Igbo-speaking populations (Opobo leans more heavily toward the Igbo-speaking side).

#6. I already addressed that.

#5 (you repeated your numbering again) This is actually not a lie. It's a truthful statement. BUT... it does not do much to further your premise since Ibani is just as much connected to Igbo as it is to Ijaw.

1. Ndoki being derived from an Ijaw expression is a recent fabrication and a falsehood. If you have any pre colonial or colonial evidence that supports this falsehood, bring it forward and stop propagating falsehoods here in the name of trying to impress as a bastion of objectivity.

Give the name of the Ndoki village derived from Ijaw.

2. Doesn't matter if Ndoli reached Bonny or not. The point he tried to pass cannot not be muted by that your unnecessary diversion. Point being that Ndoki Igbo element were present in Bonny from the early days, whether as Ndoli, Asimini or Alagabara.

3. Those names are mainly Igbo names. ie Owujie, Ubogu, Jumbo. They can't be said to be Ijaw. At best they can be said to be Ibani like he opined.

4. Owu/ Owogbo is an Igbo festival that diffused into Opobo/ Bonny, unless you have a colonial evidence to back this your contrary claim, Owu remains an Igbo influence on Ibani, not the other way round.

5 . I see no point of that your drivel. Other than to continue holding unto your naive toga of objectivity.
Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by Marcelini(m): 10:03am On Oct 01, 2016
Eastlink:
The Ijaw claim to the ownership of Ndoki and Ibaniland as being peddled by Ijaw people here on nairaland is built on falsehood and historical distortion. The closest connection the Ndoki and Ibani have with any other group in the south is Igbo and never Ijaw. Here are five historical reasons why the Ndoki and their Ibani kins are Igbo in origin.

1) The Ndoki's are not Ijaws in diaspora as construed by some Izons, but pure Igbo sub-group, with related ancestry with the Ngwa and other southern Igbo groups.

2) According to a section of history, the Ndoki's were said to be the original founders of Ibani. The first Bonny King and founder Ndoli Okpara was said to be an Ndoki man which thus wipes off Ijaw claims of establishing the kingdom and validating it's Igbo origin. Other Kings as Asimini, Alagbarinye were of pure Ndoki (Igbo) ancestry. The Ijaws only arrived Ibani as potters and have no legitimate claim to the founding of Ibani, thus are now bent on changing the last Igbo link (Ndoki) to Ijaws to make their fraudulent claims valid.

3)Ibani family names such as Opunsunju, Epelle, Jaja, Owujie, Ubogu, Jumbo etc are not Ijoid names but Ibani (Igbo). The Ijaw family names which now forms part of Ibani livestyle came as a result of Ijaw interaction and migration to the area.

4)The tieing of two wrappers as well as as the etibo and woko are not Ijaw attires. The attires were introduced by the early Portuguese to communities within the coast. The Ibani and Ndoki just like the Itshekiri, Urhobos, Efiks and other coastal tribes were among the first to put on the attires, because of their early contact with the white men. Other tribes followed suit and today it has become a cultural accepted practice by people of the lower niger area, Igbo inclusive.

4) The Ibani music has never been Ijoid but rather Igboid. The Ndoki's of Asa who were the orginal founders took the Igbo musical drums to the coast of Bonny. Festival such as the Nwaotam boat regatta is a testimony of early Igbo cultural influence, the same goes for the Owuogbo (Owu) festival still celebrated till this day in parts of Orlu Imo state.

5) The language been spoken today in Ndoki and Ibani is a dialect of the Igbo language mutually intelligible to both groups.

6) The earliest Igbo language Bible was first translated to Ibani(Igbo) dialect and used as a medium to propagate christianity in Igboland. Till today, the Bonny-Opobo language is considered a dialect of Igbo by linguist just like Ngwa and Etche.

5) The Ndoki and Ibani (Bonny and Opobo) are blood relatives sharing both ancentral and cultural link in common. Thus the both groups are associated with Igbo.

Well said brother. 100% correct! smiley

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Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by RedboneSmith(m): 10:24am On Oct 01, 2016
Marcelini:




4. Owu/ Owogbo is an Igbo festival that diffused into Opobo/ Bonny, unless you have a colonial evidence to back this your contrary claim, Owu remains an Igbo influence on Ibani, not the other way round.

Everything I know about Owu suggests the diffusion was the other way, i.e., from Ijaw to Igbo.

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Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by Marcelini(m): 10:29am On Oct 01, 2016
RedboneSmith:


Everything I know about Owu suggests the diffusion was the other way, i.e., from Ijaw to Igbo.


Any colonial document to prove this?

Owu is celebrated as far inland as Mgbidi, Mbaitolu LGA, Orsu East LGA of imo state. And you want me to believe it's of Ijaw origin? Ah dey laff grin cheesy grin

NB: only colonial documents will be acceptable, as they were provided by an unbiased third party. Another thing is my word against yours.

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Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by RedboneSmith(m): 10:33am On Oct 01, 2016
Marcelini:


Any colonial document to prove this?

NB: only colonial documents will be acceptable, as they were provided by an unbiased third party. Another thing is my word against yours.

Do colonial documents prove it diffused from Igbo to Ijaw? undecided
Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by Marcelini(m): 11:00am On Oct 01, 2016
RedboneSmith:


Do colonial documents prove it diffused from Igbo to Ijaw? undecided

The default is that Owu is an Igbo festival, the burden of proof lie on those who say that it is an Ijaw festival that spread to Igboland.
Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by Chiwude(m): 11:16am On Oct 01, 2016
Marcelini:


Any colonial document to prove this?

Owu is celebrated as far inland as Mgbidi, Mbaitolu LGA, Orsu East LGA of imo state. And you want me to believe it's of Ijaw origin? Ah dey laff grin cheesy grin

NB: only colonial documents will be acceptable, as they were provided by an unbiased third party. Another thing is my word against yours.
Don't mind them. If they want to know more about Owu, let them come to Imo state and learn. Festivals such as Owu and Okorosha remains an Isu cultural heritage, anywhere else you see it practiced, mimicked or restyled, just know it was borrowed.
Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by RedboneSmith(m): 11:22am On Oct 01, 2016
Marcelini:


The default is that Owu is an Igbo festival, the burden of proof lie on those who say that it is an Ijaw festival that spread to Igboland.

When the word for masquerade in every Ijaw community, every Ijaw community, as far west as Apoi and Arogbo in Ondo State is owu or its variants ou or awu, how is it Igbo by default? More than half of Igboland doesn't even know what is Owu. Every Ijaw community does. So, I ask again: How is it Igbo by default.

Can you even break down the word 'owuogbo' and explain it? Every Ijaw speaker can.

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Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by Chiwude(m): 11:54am On Oct 01, 2016
RedboneSmith:


When the word for masquerade in every Ijaw community, every Ijaw community, as far west as Apoi and Arogbo in Ondo State is owu or its variants ou or awu, how is it Igbo by default? More than half of Igboland doesn't even know what is Owu. Every Ijaw community does. So, I ask again: How is it Igbo by default.

Can you even break down the word 'owuogbo' and explain it? Every Ijaw speaker can.
Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by Chiwude(m): 11:57am On Oct 01, 2016
RedboneSmith:


When the word for masquerade in every Ijaw community, every Ijaw community, as far west as Apoi and Arogbo in Ondo State is owu or its variants ou or awu, how is it Igbo by default? More than half of Igboland doesn't even know what is Owu. Every Ijaw community does. So, I ask again: How is it Igbo by default.

Can you even break down the word 'owuogbo' and explain it? Every Ijaw speaker can.
The more reason it's obvious Igbo had a big influence on Ijaw culture, based on the general usage of the word Owu in Ijaw community. Igboland is older than Ijaw thousands of years apart, even in size just half of Igboland is larger than Ijawland (including the swamps and lagoons the Ijaws dwell). And the Owu festival you see being practiced in parts of Imo state has existed even before the founding of the earliest Ijaw settlement. I'm an Isu man and my area according to historians contitute one of three of the earliest Igbo homeland. Still in my part of Isu, Njaba, Oru, Mbaitoli and Orsu we don't do Nmanwu neither do we call our masquerades by that name. Owu is what we've being practicing since the time of our ancestors, except for few communities in parts of Nwangele, Nkwerre and Orlu that practice an Owu look alike called Okorosha. Every laid down rules guiding the festival, the masquerades, mode of dance dress, the dance step, traditional rites and other cultural rituals has been long defined by us. So any other community not within our cultural influence copied it from us, there is no two ways about it.

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Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by Marcelini(m): 2:04pm On Oct 01, 2016
Chiwude:
The more reason it's obvious Igbo had a big influence on Ijaw culture, based on the general usage of the word Owu in Ijaw community. Igboland is older than Ijaw thousands of years apart, even in size just half of Igboland is larger than Ijawland (including the swamps and lagoons the Ijaws dwell). And the Owu festival you see being practiced in parts of Imo state has existed even before the founding of the earliest Ijaw settlement. I'm an Isu man and my area according to historians contitute one of three of the earliest Igbo homeland. Still in my part of Isu, Njaba, Oru, Mbaitoli and Orsu we don't do Nmanwu neither do we call our masquerades by that name. Owu is what we've being practicing since the time of our ancestors, except for few communities in parts of Nwangele, Nkwerre and Orlu that practice an Owu look alike called Okorosha. Every laid down rules guiding the festival, the masquerades, mode of dance dress, the dance step, traditional rites and other cultural rituals has been long defined by us. So any other community not within our cultural influence copied it from us, there is no two ways about it.

Simple, concise and apt.

Thanks.
cc: Redbonesmith
Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by ChinenyeN(m): 2:07pm On Oct 01, 2016
Chiwude, that is not how cultural diffusion works. In fact, there are no rules to cultural diffusion. Meaning, it is never possible to use one groups cultural context to judge the direction of cultural diffusion for another group. Instead, the direction of cultural diffusion can typically only be ascertained after the fact and after considering various factors from oral tradition to migratory routes to trade.

I am willing to give concession to the possibility of coincidences in names. There is only so much that the human vocal system can create, meaning overlap is bound to happen (no one group has a 100% monopoly on sound). If it turns out that the owu in the case of your culture group is simply a coincidence in name, then alright. No harm, no foul. However, it is most likely the case (especially within southern "Igboland" ) that any owu-named display is as a result of cultural diffusion from Ijaw.

2 Likes

Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by ChinenyeN(m): 2:21pm On Oct 01, 2016
I have always held that Nigerians best limit their overall acceptance of European accounts. There is no denying that Europeans kept generally impeccable accounts of the what they witnessed surrounding their experiences while on the ground. However, their interpretations of those accounts can often times be said to have been categorically incorrect. So, European accounts are good reference material, but they are by no means definitive nor should they be held as conclusive and the end-all-be-all.

That being said, you are unlikely to find much discussion on owu in intelligence/colonial reports. However, you should be able to find it in later anthropological surveys/book. If you are interested, do a Google or Google Books search of G. I. Jones and Igbo arts and drama styles, and you can use that as an introductory step into learning more about the cultural diffusion of owu drama. I would much rather you perform the research and learn for yourself as opposed to me sharing the information with you, and you attempting to fight me over something I never had a hand in writing.

Aside from that, my knowledge of owu does not come from any anthropological work, but rather from my knowledge of oral traditions in the southern part of Igboland (the Ngwa-Ikwerre axis).

1 Like

Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by RedboneSmith(m): 2:27pm On Oct 01, 2016
Marcelini:


Simple, concise and apt.

Thanks.
cc: Redbonesmith

Why cc me to a post that makes factually inaccurate statements like, "Igbo is older than Ijaw thousands of years apart" when it is generally known that Ijaw are one of the oldest groups in southern nigeria? And makes subjective (at best) comments like "Owu has been in Isu before the founding of the first Ijaw settlement?"

Bruh,,you both can do better.

There is a reason why Owu is restricted to riverain Igbo and southern Igbo which are the areas with documented historical relations with Ijaw or Ijaw-associated people, whereas in Ijaw there is no such restriction, as it exists in all corners of Ijawland, from Ondo to Rivers. When you are willing to step outside your narrow,,subjective boxes and adopt an unbiased approach, then cc me.

3 Likes

Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by Marcelini(m): 2:51pm On Oct 01, 2016
RedboneSmith:


Why cc me to a post that makes factually inaccurate statements like, "Igbo is older than Ijaw thousands of years apart" when it is generally known that Ijaw are one of the oldest groups in southern nigeria? And makes subjective (at best) comments like "Owu has been in Isu before the founding of the first Ijaw settlement?"

Bruh,,you both can do better.

There is a reason why Owu is restricted to riverain Igbo and southern Igbo which are the areas with documented historical relations with Ijaw or Ijaw-associated people, whereas in Ijaw there is no such restriction, as it exists in all corners of Ijawland, from Ondo to Rivers. When you are willing to step outside your narrow,,subjective boxes and adopt an unbiased approach, then cc me.

Mbaitolu, Isu, Oru East, Njaba parts of Imo are not riverine. And by the way, riverine is not synonymous to Ijaw, there are many Igbo communities with their own independent riverine culture. The Ogbaru for example and communities in Anambra East and West.

There are hardly pan Igbo festival other than Iri ji/ Ifejioku. Each Igbo area have their unique festivals, it doesn't mean they borrowed it from non Igbo areas.

The biased one here is you.
Igbo is many years older than Ijaw, that one is not even up for debate.

1 Like

Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by Marcelini(m): 2:54pm On Oct 01, 2016
ChinenyeN:
I have always held that Nigerians best limit their overall acceptance of European accounts. There is no denying that Europeans kept generally impeccable accounts of the what they witnessed surrounding their experiences while on the ground. However, their interpretations of those accounts can often times be said to have been categorically incorrect. So, European accounts are good reference material, but they are by no means definitive nor should they be held as conclusive and the end-all-be-all.

That being said, you are unlikely to find much discussion on owu in intelligence/colonial reports. However, you should be able to find it in later anthropological surveys/book. If you are interested, do a Google or Google Books search of G. I. Jones and Igbo arts and drama styles, and you can use that as an introductory step into learning more about the cultural diffusion of owu drama. I would much rather you perform the research and learn for yourself as opposed to me sharing the information with you, and you attempting to fight me over something I never had a hand in writing.

Aside from that, my knowledge of owu does not come from any anthropological work, but rather from my knowledge of oral traditions in the southern part of Igboland (the Ngwa-Ikwerre axis).

You made no point. I hope you know that.
Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by ChinenyeN(m): 2:55pm On Oct 01, 2016
Ochi lei.. Okay, Marcelini. I have made no point.

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Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by Marcelini(m): 3:12pm On Oct 01, 2016
Here is a map of Imo state, take a look at the location of Isu, Oru East, Njaba, mbaitolu areas, and tell me how a human being with brain cells can speak of Ijaw cultural diffusion and riverine proximity here.

1 Like

Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by RedboneSmith(m): 3:27pm On Oct 01, 2016
Are you sure you know what riverine means? All the areas you want us to take note of are either riverine or just next to riverine areas.

It's clear you don't even know the history of the area.
Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by ChinenyeN(m): 5:40pm On Oct 01, 2016
Marcelini, I'm going to tell you the same thing I told Chiwude. That is not how cultural diffusion works. You cannot place constraints on cultural diffusion. It doesn't work like that. Cultural diffusion only requires one thing to happen, that a cultural aspect, idea or practice is adopted from one community to the next. Once that adoption occurs, you have cultural diffusion. How that adoption took place is a separate matter.

Proximity does not define the limits of cultural diffusion. Interaction defines the limits of cultural diffusion, and the interaction need not be direct. For instance, southern Igbo-speaking communities wearing red "cheiftaincy" cap, despite having no direct interaction with Igala who introduced the cap to Nsukka, is an example of cultural diffusion.

Also, if you attempt to place proximity constraints on diffusion from Ijaw to the Imo hinterland, then you should logically place constraints going the opposite direction (from Imo hinterland to Ijaw). Meaning that you and Chiwude are in fact claiming the Ijaw to have learned owu second-hand from southern Igbo-speaking communities. But here's the problem... all the southern Igbo-speaking communities with historical Ijaw interaction credit the Ijaw with the introduction of owu. They do not credit the Isu, Oru East, Njaba, mbaitolu areas, nor do they credit themselves. This means that there is no basis with which to credit "Igbo".

The cultural context presented above invalidates the assertion by you and Chiwude that the Ijaw learned owu from the Igbo. To continue stating such in the face of available, contradictory evidence makes you obstinate to the true historical context of southern Nigeria and it also shows that you know little to nothing about the historical interactions between southern Igbo-speaking communities and their Ijaw-speaking counterparts.

This is one of my main issues with Igbo people. You all are just as bad as the Ijaw when it comes to this. The only difference is that you talk out of ignorance while Ijaw purposefully reauthors the entire story.

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Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by ChinenyeN(m): 7:44pm On Oct 01, 2016
Anyway, long story short, Ndoki is not Ijaw in diaspora. Bonny-Ijaw oral traditions admit to a migratory wave encountering already established, Igbo-speaking communities in what is now Ndoki. Over half of these communities' oral traditions do not mention any interaction with Ijaw-speaking elements in their early history, indicating that their early ancestors had likely settled long before the migratory movement that gave birth to eastern Ijaw-speaking communities and certainly before Bonny had been established.

There is much more to be said to fully grasp the historical context of Ndoki, but that would mean delving into early Ndoki settlement history and early Bonny social/political structure, then the cultural and political shift during the 17th - 18th centuries, the secondary migration into Bonny, the Bonny civil, the reverse migration into Ndoki/Ngwa etc. That is just too much writing to be wasted here on NL.

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Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by Chiwude(m): 9:29pm On Oct 01, 2016
ChinenyeN:
Marcelini, I'm going to tell you the same thing I told Chiwude. That is not how cultural diffusion works. You cannot place constraints on cultural diffusion. It doesn't work like that. Cultural diffusion only requires one thing to happen, that a cultural aspect, idea or practice is adopted from one community to the next. Once that adoption occurs, you have cultural diffusion. How that adoption took place is a separate matter.

Proximity does not define the limits of cultural diffusion. Interaction defines the limits of cultural diffusion, and the interaction need not be direct. For instance, southern Igbo-speaking communities wearing red "cheiftaincy" cap, despite having no direct interaction with Igala who introduced the cap to Nsukka, is an example of cultural diffusion.

Also, if you attempt to place proximity constraints on diffusion from Ijaw to the Imo hinterland, then you should logically place constraints going the opposite direction (from Imo hinterland to Ijaw). Meaning that you and Chiwude are in fact claiming the Ijaw to have learned owu second-hand from southern Igbo-speaking communities. But here's the problem... all the southern Igbo-speaking communities with historical Ijaw interaction credit the Ijaw with the introduction of owu. They do not credit the Isu, Oru East, Njaba, mbaitolu areas, nor do they credit themselves. This means that there is no basis with which to credit "Igbo".

The cultural context presented above invalidates the assertion by you and Chiwude that the Ijaw learned owu from the Igbo. To continue stating such in the face of available, contradictory evidence makes you obstinate to the true historical context of southern Nigeria and it also shows that you know little to nothing about the historical interactions between southern Igbo-speaking communities and their Ijaw-speaking counterparts.

This is one of my main issues with Igbo people. You all are just as bad as the Ijaw when it comes to this. The only difference is that you talk out of ignorance while Ijaw purposefully reauthors the entire story.
Chinenye himself. The historian that want to always sound objective. I know your antecendent very well and trust me, had this matter concern Ndi-Ngwa, you would never had come out this plain. The Owu we are talking about here is part of my people's cultural heritage. Infact we have no other cultural festival in my community all year round other than the Owu. You may awe in disbelief, but this is the truth. Even the new yam festival is given less preminence or even non existent in my community, yet that doesnt mean we don't value the important of the yam. So dont expect me to be neutral when it comes to a culture that forms part and parcel of my bloodline.
The Ijaws for one thing dont believe they share anything in common with Ndigbo and are always quick to deny our cultural influence on them as false. Take the case of Ibani, Okrika, kalabari and Nembe for instance, these areas saw a large influx of Igbo sojourners (Aboh, Ndoki, Isu, Aro etc) and later slaves in time past which to a large extent influenced the Ijaw culture we see today. But rather than accept the glaring fact, the Ijaws have formed a habit of always denying this truth and on several occassions gone ahead to falsify some fake history to disprove them. We've also observe them trying to wipe off or downplay Igbo cultural traits and language in the above afformentioned areas. More annoying is the failed attempt of the Ijaws to claim Ndoki as there's. So please rather than come to prove your research prowess, just know that the Ijaws are not worth your fight. Also, this issue isn't all about similarity in culture but who owns what and who copied from who. And until the Ijaws can prove to us that they own a culture older than their existence, only then can we start talking.

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Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by ChinenyeN(m): 10:25pm On Oct 01, 2016
Chiwude, if you spent half your time reading my words for comprehension rather than trying to counter attack, then you would realize that there is no need for you to have said all that you said just now.

I deliberately stated that I am willing to give concession for the possibility that the owu drama for your culture group is unrelated. However, as a consequence, there also exists the possibility that your owu is indeed related. Do note that I am not saying that you are wrong about your own people or that what you said is false. After all, I do not presume to know your people more than you. All I am saying is, if it absolutely does not apply to your people, then don't worry about it. Though, I highly doubt your owu is unrelated.

Chiwude:
had this matter concern Ndi-Ngwa, you would never had come out this plain.
I do not know what you mean by this, but I will say one thing. Unknown to you (at least, it seems to me that you genuinely have no idea), this matter does indeed concern nde Ngwa. If you want to know how, then I suggest you do your research. Do note that if you ask me, I will not answer, because I am inclined to believe that you will likely not show me the same courtesy that I have shown you (i.e. you seem to me like the type of person to potentially argue with me over my own people, despite me showing you the courtesy of not arguing with you over yours).

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Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by Chiwude(m): 7:40am On Oct 02, 2016
ChinenyeN:
Chiwude, if you spent half your time reading my words for comprehension rather than trying to counter attack, then you would realize that there is no need for you to have said all that you said just now.

I deliberately stated that I am willing to give concession for the possibility that the owu drama for your culture group is unrelated. However, as a consequence, there also exists the possibility that your owu is indeed related. Do note that I am not saying that you are wrong about your own people or that what you said is false. After all, I do not presume to know your people more than you. All I am saying is, if it absolutely does not apply to your people, then don't worry about it. Though, I highly doubt your owu is unrelated.


I do not know what you mean by this, but I will say one thing. Unknown to you (at least, it seems to me that you genuinely have no idea), this matter does indeed concern nde Ngwa. If you want to know how, then I suggest you do your research. Do note that if you ask me, I will not answer, because I am inclined to believe that you will likely not show me the same courtesy that I have shown you (i.e. you seem to me like the type of person to potentially argue with me over my own people, despite me showing you the courtesy of not arguing with you over yours).
Chiwude, if you spent half your time reading my words for comprehension rather than trying to counter attack, then you would realize that there is no need for you to have said all that you said just now.
Maybe you caused it, giving the way you jumped to counter the #4 point even without understanding thoroughly what is being talked about. Why make this comment
Owuogbo is not an Igbo festival. Its origin is Ijaw. The owu-named performances you see in Abia and Imo are as a result of cultural diffusion.
If you want to learn about something why don't you ask. You don't know everything my friend and that is why you should have been neutral in the first place. Like studying the Owu unique to my clan as well as the one observed in Ijawland before making that authoritative statement you previously made. I only jumped into this thread because of the direction your argument was tilting in favour of the Ijaws. The Owu in question and the Owu where the Eastlink dude linked my community with is originally from my area, unless there is a different Owu in question practiced by the Ijaws of which coincidentally shares similar name as ours.

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Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by AjaanaOka(m): 9:19am On Oct 02, 2016
ChinenyeN, Chiwude:

How is the 'ogbo' in 'Owuogbo' pronounced? Are the O's heavy or light vowels? How about accent marks? Is it ògbó, ógbó, ògbò?
Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by ChinenyeN(m): 9:54am On Oct 02, 2016
Are my eyes deceiving me?

Chiwude:
The Owu in question and the Owu where the Eastlink dude linked my community into is originally from my area, unless there is a different Owu in question practiced by the Ijaws of which coincidentally shares similar name with ours.

Excuse me, but is this not exactly the same concession I gave you, TWICE?!! And in TWO separate posts no less!!

You want to sit here and argue with me like a child about the concessions I gave you, and then turn around and repeat my words concerning those exact same concessions as if it is a new thought of yours!? You've just proven that you did not at all read my posts for comprehension. So now what in God's name are you arguing with me about, eh, Chiwude? Do you even know?

Honestly, I don't get why you felt the need to drag me into a useless argument if you were simply going to repeat my words. Our discussion should have ended long ago without any hassle.

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Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by ChinenyeN(m): 10:33am On Oct 02, 2016
AjaanaOka, I don't know about how they pronounce it in Chiwude's place, but the owuogbo I know is pronounced as ówú-ògbò (High High Low Low). No subdots. And the meaning is not unknown to us.

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Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by Chiwude(m): 11:07am On Oct 02, 2016
ChinenyeN:
AjaanaOka, I don't know about how they pronounce it in Chiwude's place, but the owuogbo I know is pronounced as ówú-ògbò (High High Low Low). No subdots. And the meaning is not unknown to us.
ówú pronounced as Oghu (the O high pitch then the ghu low pitch).

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