Akin1212:


Can you be particular about these laws, please?

analize701:

oh. Okay. But let me ask you, does allah saves? As in salvation from sin.

shadeyinka:


Physical laws like
Entropy
Conservation of Energy
Gas laws
Snell's law


Physical constants

etc etc

Akin1212:

But the conservation of energy and the entropy postulations show that Energy is the beginning and not God. So how can such law give you such views?

shadeyinka:

Can there be entropy before the Big Bang?
Not possible because there is no subject in the first place.

Can one talk about conservation of energy without mass?
Not possible. Mass didn't exist before the Big Bang

Lirqur:


Very well He does, He is the only saviour, and Jesus was His messenger.

analize701:

Okay. What, what the modalities he uses in saving the lost? I mean how did man get to the point of needing salvation?

Lirqur:


Same way dear, He his very merciful that's why He His called Al Rahman, this is why he allows a lot to happen. Majority are being saved through their believe in his prophet Jesus/Isa (pbuh) and are still being saved. Jesus(pbuh) said he his the way the truth and the light, that is absolutely correct.

There's a lot that has being twisted that he allows, he wants humans to see how destructive Shaitan's plans are. On that very day we shall know who has been right all along. "Who is there that will intercede with him, save by his leave" Salaam, Allahu Akbar.

Akin1212:


Keep deceiving yourself, sir.

Akin1212:


Lol, this just showed you are not where you think you are at all.

Your assertions up there are very very wrong by all scientific standards.

Entropy and Energy do not depend on mass or matter. Which means we can talk about energy and entropy without matter.
Matter(something that has mass) is what possesses energy, energy does not possess mass. You need to understand these things.

This quote should explain everything and address the things you misunderstood about anything that has mass and its relationship with energy

In the classical physics observed in everyday life, matter is any substance that has mass and takes up space by having volume. This includes atoms and anything made up of these, but not other energy phenomena or waves such as light or sound. More generally, however, in (modern) physics, matter is not a fundamental concept because a universal definition of it is elusive; for example, the elementary constituents of atoms may be point particles, each having no volume individually.

All the everyday objects that we can bump into, touch or squeeze are ultimately composed of atoms. This ordinary atomic matter is in turn made up of interacting subatomic particles—usually a nucleus of protons and neutrons, and a cloud of orbiting electrons. Typically, science considers these composite particles matter because they have both rest mass and volume. By contrast, massless particles, such as photons, are not considered matter, because they have neither rest mass nor volume. However, not all particles with rest mass have a classical volume, since fundamental particles such as quarks and leptons (sometimes equated with matter) are considered "point particles" with no effective size or volume. Nevertheless, quarks and leptons together make up "ordinary matter", and their interactions contribute to the effective volume of the composite particles that make up ordinary matter.

To cap it, the big bang theory explains the expansion of small massless photon-like particles(which possesses energy) which has been explained above to be different from matter.
The universe cooled and allowed matter to form FROM THESE MASSLESS PARTICLES and here we are. WE CAN TALK ABOUT THE CONSERVATION OF ENERGY WITHOUT MASS & THERE CAN BE ENTROPY WITHOUT THE BIG BANG.

shadeyinka:

Can there be entropy before the Big Bang?
Not possible because there is no subject in the first place.

Can one talk about conservation of energy without mass?
Not possible. Mass didn't exist before the Big Bang

shadeyinka:

Thank you for the lecture. Unfortunately, you preempted me by making assertions which I didn't make. Here is what I said!


The first was about entropy :
Entropy may be understood as a measure of disorder within a macroscopic system. The second law of thermodynamics states that an isolated system's entropy never decreases. Such systems spontaneously evolve towards thermodynamic equilibrium, the state with maximum entropy.
Before the big bang, could thermodynamic states exist?
Could macroscopic systems exist?

This is the meaning of no subject.


The second issue I raised was about conservation
of Energy

The law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system in a given frame of reference remains constant — it is said to be conserved over time.

You seem to assume that energy can spontaneously exist without mass. From Nuclear Energy, to electromagnetic, nuclear energy, show me a form of energy which exist in isolation without matter.


So, the four fundermental force of
Gravitation,
Electromagnetism,
the weak interaction, and
the strong interaction

Which of them exists independent of matter?

So, my argument is, did matter exist before the Big Bang? Note that Matter is matter whether massless or not.

shadeyinka:

Another issue you didn't account for was TIME.
Could time have existed before the big bang? Certainly not. The reason is simple. Time need a reference point which couldn't have existed before the bang. So, how valid are the equations which have time constants or it's derivative.

Lirqur:


Same way dear, He his very merciful that's why He His called Al Rahman, this is why he allows a lot to happen. Majority are being saved through their believe in his prophet Jesus/Isa (pbuh) and are still being saved. Jesus(pbuh) said he his the way the truth and the light, that is absolutely correct.

There's a lot that has being twisted that he allows, he wants humans to see how destructive Shaitan's plans are. On that very day we shall know who has been right all along. "Who is there that will intercede with him, save by his leave" Salaam, Allahu Akbar.

Lirqur:


Same way dear, He his very merciful that's why He His called Al Rahman, this is why he allows a lot to happen. Majority are being saved through their believe in his prophet Jesus/Isa (pbuh) and are still being saved. Jesus(pbuh) said he his the way the truth and the light, that is absolutely correct.

There's a lot that has being twisted that he allows, he wants humans to see how destructive Shaitan's plans are. On that very day we shall know who has been right all along. "Who is there that will intercede with him, save by his leave" Salaam, Allahu Akbar.

analize701:

You have not answered my questions.

My questions are, What is salvation? and why do we need salvation? What are the modalities allah uses to bring us salvation?

I didn't ask what he allows and his mercies.

Allah has no mercy. If you do anyhow, you see anyhow. That's Allah's way.

Lirqur:


And what is Yahweh's way ?

Salvation is everything you know and believe it to be just as you currently believe now, you're correct. I'm just letting you know you'll still end up saying Allahu Akbar in the end. You're doing exactly what Christianity was intended for. and you're right with what you believe now, just warming you up for the future.

Akin1212:


Your bolded assertions are wrong because according to the Quran, anybody who believes Jesus to be God will go to hell.

Lirqur:


Yeah it says that in the Quran. And Allah also allows a lot to happen, we are currently expressing our freewill. He knows the heart of all men.

Akin1212:


I am glad you stated the law of conservation of energy and you defined entropy. Now, you are mixing it all up and I don't know why. It's either it's a deliberate action or you're being non-scientific.

Before I proceed, let me clear you on something. Anything that is MASSLESS is not matter. Matter is anything that has mass and occupies space.

That said and done, there are two laws of the conservation of energy, which follows themselves in terms of energy(1) and entropy(2).
I don't need to stress myself stating the laws, you already know them. Where you are getting it wrong is trying to bring entropy first before energy. Energy can exist without matter, a photon is not a matter but it has energy. Light energy is a basic example of this. However, Energy can give rise to matter. Energy can exist without mass, you can check it out or do your research if you don't believe me. I do not seem to think it, it is an empirical fact, except you don't know what a photon is.

You seem to have narrowed energy down to Nuclear and electromagnetic energy alone, despite the fact that you yourself stated the first law of conservation of energy. Nuclear and electromagnetic energies were necessary forms of energy when matter was formed, But light energy is independent of matter. You should know that. And these energies, the ones that depend on matter and the ones that don't, can be interconverted.


Entropy cannot be seen without matter. There must be a system, isolated or not before you measure entropy. As a matter of fact, entropy depends on energy. Simply put, entropy is a measure of energy and entropy is also a function of a state. Entropy SI unit is J/K

There's no need for the existence of entropy before the big bang. Simply put, prior to the big bang, entropy was either absent, equal to zero or considerably low and has no effects. And energy, on the other hand, has always existed and independent of matter.

In fact, in modern physics, on of the most troubling unsolved questions is that why does the universe have so much entropy now than the past?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_(arrow_of_time)

Akin1212:



There is nothing like time. Time was devised by man to measure and distinguish the difference between the past and the future.

If you had no clock, no wristwatch, and you're in a spaceship. You will not bother what the time is, would you?

An important pointer is this, if you were to call a relative in the USA now, let's assume the time in Nigeria is 8 pm, in the US the time would be 2 pm. But you would be talking in an instant with someone who is 6 hours behind your current time. If time existed in reality, your voice was supposed to travel to USA and get there when they are at 8 pm.

But the fact is that there is no time in space. It is our invention.

Lirqur:


And what is Yahweh's way ?

Salvation is everything you know and believe it to be just as you currently believe now, you're correct. I'm just letting you know you'll still end up saying Allahu Akbar in the end. You're doing exactly what Christianity was intended for. and you're right with what you believe now, just warming you up for the future.

Lirqur:


Very well He does, He is the only saviour, and Jesus was His messenger.

analize701:

What are you talking about? We are not talking about YHWH's way. We are talking about Allah's way. Does allah saves? you said yes, my question is, HOW?

What happened to man to put him in the position where he needs salvation.

Pls forget about what i'm doing now, i may be wrong in following YHWH, so pls enlighten me the Allah's way.

Lirqur:


Girl, it's twisted, extremely multi twisted to tell you, I'd have to tell you why Christianity was created, I will have to tell you what you're not prepared to hear yet, and its not gonna sit well. You're not wrong believing in Yahweh, not at all. But what is the most important thing? that is there is only one God and Allah is the most awsome of His name.

Remain Blessed, Watch and pray, Salaam.

analize701:

Is it possible for Muslims to talk about islam leaving Christianity out of it?

Sir, I'm prepared to hear anything, that's why i'm asking. Let me worry about what you have to tell me.

Again, it's not about believing in YHWH or Ogun, it's about salvation that allah gives.

Let me for the last time ask, if you fail to answer me this time, i'll take it that you don't know what salvation is and why man needs to he saved.

What is Sin? We have sinned right? What is that? How does it affect our relationship with allah?

Why do we need allah to save us?

How did he save us.

As simple as ABC. teach me Islam pls.


Is there no any Muslim to help his brethren out here?

shadeyinka:


I can see where we both differ. Masslessness you have defined from rest mass point of view. But not all particles have rest mass or volume.

shadeyinka:

Quantum theory is the theoretical basis of modern physics that explains the nature and behavior of matter and energy on the atomic and subatomic level. The nature and behavior of matter and energy at that level is sometimes referred to as quantum physics and quantum mechanics.

shadeyinka:

Yes, in quantum physics some "matter" have no rest mass and some do not have rest volume. However, I still see them as matter. Matter can be decoupled such that energy is released.

The wave-particle duality of matter states that there is no fundamental difference in the makeup and behavior of energy and matter; on the atomic and subatomic level either may behave as if made of either particles or waves. Elementary particles of both energy and matter behave, depending on the conditions, like either particles or waves.

shadeyinka:

It is impossible to separate energy from matter and still arrive at quantum physics. This brings the question; did matter exist before the big bang? Obviously not! But energy exists! From where? For energies don't just exist.

shadeyinka:

It is an enigma which is impossible to solve as God is impossible to comprehend. Every form of Energy we know have its source of origin (I stand to be corrected). And the source is usually matter (including elementary particles with either no static volume or mass).

shadeyinka:

The same faith it takes to believe that Matter and Energy can spontaneously appear is what it takes to believe that God is.

Now, let's look at electromagnetic energies. The source? Oscillating/accelerating electrons. Electrons are particles of zero volume. So you see, even electomagnetic energies cannot exist without matter.

The bottom line is that both matter, time and energy were simultaneously.

shadeyinka:

There is something like time!

Time is the measure of the intervals between events. In an empty space, time is meaningless. However, when the space contains moving particles or energies time measured as intervals between change in states have meaning.

Before the big bang, its obvious that time doesn't exist. Why? The universe was supposed to be empty of activities.

If time alone is taken out of physical expressions we use in computation, velocity becomes meaningless and similarly almost all the physical constants we use collapse.

Do you see why I said that it is impossible to use our current laws laws of physics to unravel anything prior to the big bang.

So, one of the questions we should ask ourselves is that: what are the physical laws that existed before the big bang and how come these forces just seem to disappear into oblivion? Certainly the 4 fundermental forces cannot account for the big bang.

shadeyinka:

As a thesist, my conclusion is that
1. There must have been an uncaused prime mover and changer of energy through space. We call Him God!
2. Since time doesn't exist in His frame of reference, He isnt made up of matter.
3. He operates in a law that is completely different from our current physical laws. We call it law of the spirit.

Akin1212:


Can't you see that he has no answer to give you?

Akin1212:

I do not expect you to conclude less than this but then you have questions to answer.

1) If you believe that everything must be caused, then as a rule of thumb you must also account for what caused God, because there cannot be anything uncaused.

- If you answer is that God is uncaused, then it is fair enough to also say Energy is uncaused.

Akin1212:

2) That God doesn't use time is your own assumption. If you say no, okay did he tell you that personally? If God does not use time then why has he set a time for judgement? A time for creation which theists believed was 8000 years ago? A time for Satan to be punished etc etc etc

- I cannot guess your answer here, but whatever it is, exolain it clearly.

Akin1212:

3) If this God operates in a law that is different from our physical laws then it is fair to say he did not create our physical laws. And how did you even know he operates in any law at all, is it by belief(faith) or empirical evidence that can be shown to us?

shadeyinka:
I see that it is impossible to discuss rationally scientifically with you. You are prone to going tangent to issues by reinterpreting words according to what you hoped to hear.

I will just briefly speak on these direct questions.

Every physical thing has a cause. God is spirit.

shadeyinka:

I said God is not subject to time. Your question is like saying that since humans don't eat fish food, they cannot produce fish food.

shadeyinka:

Just like it is evident that humans didn't create the computer because humans don't speak binary numbers.

Akin1212:


The only thing I hope to read from you is pure science, which is not what you have been typing. You have been deviating from real science or hiding under some tenets and hereby refusing to accept established scientific facts.

Back to your answers.

What is the cause of God, the spirit?




My question is not like the description you stated about humans and fish food. Eating is different from God making use of time, please use a correct analogy.

An analogy is this, if humans don't wear clothes, they cannot use clothes. Or if humans don't eat food then they cannot use food. That's simple as ABC.

We are talking about the use of time by God and not the use of time by humans. And again not the production of time.



Didn't humans create the computers? Who did?

Is this another scientific blunder? Your claim is not evident because computers are man-made.

3) If this God operates in a law that is different from our physical laws then it is fair to say he did not create our physical laws. And how did you even know he operates in any law at all, is it by belief(faith) or empirical evidence that can be shown to us?

Just like it is evident that humans didn't create the computer because humans don't speak binary numbers.

shadeyinka:


1. God as a Spirit is not formed.
2. How does humans pass instructions to the computer?
Is it not through binary electrical signals!? Humans have to speak in the language of computers for any command to it
3. Its obvious you didn't get the pun.
You said


And I said:



Can't you see the obvious in your postulate? I just repeated it in another form

Akin1212:


1) If God as a spirit is not formed, then with the same assurance, Energy is not formed.

- If for argument's sake God is not formed, is it the only spirit that was not formed? So God only has the autonomy of not being formed? How did you know that, or is it another belief?

Satan is also a spirit, why was it formed? Why were all other spirits formed.

Since you don't know for a fact, it is possible that other spirits were not formed too since it's a belief. Hence we have many Gods.


2) Humans don't speak the language of computers, instead, computers hear our own language and translate it into their own.

I am a computer programmer and there's no way you can know this more than me, except you're one too.
Besides, another fact is that our keyboards in which we pass instructions to computers have English letters and not binary numbers.

All users of computers don't need to know binary before they use them. Computers receive and process, we don't speak their language. They understand ours instead.


So, no matter what your pun is, it is turned upside down and does not correlate once more.

shadeyinka:



You are just bent on argument no matter what.

If you program, do you do low level programming?
How much of microcontrollers have you programmed?

The fact that you do little Java, HTML and C does not make you know what goes on behind the High level language.

If you have done a little assembly language, you would not argue just for its sake

Akin1212:


I think it is evident who is bent on arguing here.

You that is assuming I code little Java, HTML, and C, or me that is saying the fact of human and computer interaction.

You don't even know how much of machine learning I have done, you don't how much of IoT projects I have completed, you just for the sake of believing that God exists decide to assume the codes I write and how much of programming I know...

If you cannot discuss without rudeness and odious contempt, you could have just said I should leave your thread.


You don't even know the languages I write and you reached a shabby conclusion instead of making your points, of course, which are pointless.

No wonder you are a theist, Goodbye.