lets have a one on one debate with the best mavrodian addressing and not bypassing each point.

So if you are a mavrodian, here is your chance to convince the whole Nigeria why MMM is right and anti MMM-ers are wrong.


don't be chicken

Oya

MAKE WUNA START,,,, GILIN GILIN

AYAFF RING ZA BELL

eph12:
Oya

Nice one

Okay, I guess I'll go by asking you the first question:

Where does the 30 profit per month for participants come from?

Go get a job

Mtchewwww. Still asking this stupid question

kYjelly2:


Nice one

Okay, I guess I'll go by asking you the first question:

Where does the 30 profit per month for participants come from?

From participants

eph12:

From participants

Okay, so you do admit that MMM runs no interest generating investments and only pays previous participants from new participants.

We are definitely on the same page so far.

So, what happens if for instance, there are no new participants in MMM, what then becomes the fate of old participants?

How would they get paid when there are no new participants?

kYjelly2:


Okay, so you do admit that MMM runs no interest generating investments and only pays previous participants from new participants.

We are definitely on the same page so far.

So, what happens if for instance, there are no new participants in MMM, what then becomes the fate of old participants?

How would they get paid when there are no new participants?

It's common knowledge that the system can only thrive when people ph as much as they gh. It does not necessarily have to be new participants.

♦

kYjelly2:


Okay, so you do admit that MMM runs no interest generating investments and only pays previous participants from new participants.

We are definitely on the same page so far.

So, what happens if for instance, there are no new participants in MMM, what then becomes the fate of old participants?

How would they get paid when there are no new participants?

even if Mmm does not get new participant d ones inside alone can fund it if they consistently PH and GH

Mumu thread from a jobless source

eph12:

It's common knowledge that the system can only thrive when people ph as much as they gh. It does not necessarily have to be new participants.

Okay, so you say MMM doesn't really need new participants as long as old participants continue to PH.

Now lets put your answer into a model.

In our model we would have 10 MMM participants who each contributed N1000 or PH N1000, making a total PH of N10,000. Now the total GH would be expected to be 130% of this amount which would be N13,000.

According to our model, no new participants join, so we remain at 10 participants.

Already, we have a deficit between the GH and PH of N3,000 that cannot be covered as there are no new participants.

Now you say people can keep PH-ing and GH-ing, so lets account for that.

Say the first 5 people GH from the total pot of N10,000, they would each be expected to get N1,300 and a total of N6,500. If we subtract the N6,500 from the N10,000 we'd have only N3,500 left for the remaining 5 participants who won't all be able to GH.

Now the first 5 participants who GH-ed, according to you, could PH again. So now the first 5 participants PH N1,300 each, making the total sum of money now N3,500 + N6,500 = N10,000. Now the last 5 people can GH of N6,500 leaving only N3,500 left.

Keep in mind that those first 5 people that re-PH at N1,300 would now be expecting N1690 each and a total of N8,450 for all 5 of them.

Since all that is left is N3,500 it won't be enough to pay out the new deficit of N8,450.

We could repeat this cycle again and again and the only thing that would grow is the amount owed and an eventual crash.



In summary, with our first PH and GH, our deficit was only N3,000.

With a Re-PH our deficit has now ballooned to N8,450.


You can now see that a Re-PH only increases the deficit for each round of PH.



Do you agree with this analysis?

kYjelly2:
lets have a one on one debate with the best mavrodian addressing and not bypassing each point.

So if you are a mavrodian, here is your chance to convince the whole Nigeria why MMM is right and anti MMM-ers are wrong.


don't be chicken

Hope you applied for N-power?

talk2macs:





Hope you applied for N-power?

your kinda throwing me off my game, lol

what's N-power though? may a topic for another time?

kYjelly2:


Okay, so you say MMM doesn't really need new participants as long as old participants continue to PH.

Now lets put your answer into a model.

In our model we would have 10 MMM participants who each contributed N1000 or PH N1000, making a total PH of N10,000. Now the total GH would be expected to be 130% of this amount which would be N13,000.

According to our model, no new participants join, so we remain at 10 participants.

Already, we have a deficit between the GH and PH of N3,000 that cannot be covered as there are no new participants.

Now you say people can keep PH-ing and GH-ing, so lets account for that.

Say the first 5 people GH from the total pot of N10,000, they would each be expected to get N1,300 and a total of N6,500. If we subtract the N6,500 from the N10,000 we'd have only N3,500 left for the remaining 5 participants who won't all be able to GH.

Now the first 5 participants who GH-ed, according to you, could PH again. So now the first 5 participants PH N1,300 each, making the total sum of money now N3,500 + N6,500 = N10,000. Now the last 5 people can GH of N6,500 leaving only N3,500 left.

Keep in mind that those first 5 people that re-PH at N1,300 would now be expecting N1690 each and a total of N8,450 for all 5 of them.

Since all that is left is N3,500 it won't be enough to pay out the new deficit of N8,450.

We could repeat this cycle again and again and the only thing that would grow is the amount owed and an eventual crash.



In summary, with our first PH and GH, our deficit was only N3,000.

With a Re-PH our deficit has now ballooned to N8,450.


You can now see that a Re-PH only increase the deficit for each round of PH.



Do you agree with this analysis?

remember members don't get help at the same time. So your theory can't work that way.

DuchessR:
remember members don't get help at the same time. So your theory can't work that way.

How is time a variant in the above model?

whether or not the payments are staggered has no overall effect on the eventual outcome.

kYjelly2:



How is time a variant in the above model?

whether or not the payments are staggered has no overall effect on the eventual outcome.

what you fail to know is pH can't exceed gh if the system is well designed like GHW. and also, tell me which business you know that won't need new customers to grow. Even 'our religion' is a pyramidal scheme.

I agree with you that MMM has its own shortcomings but if it can be addressed, it will surely stand the test of time.


Banks and insurance companies has a lot of operational cost to borne hence the demand for new customers. Ever wondered why these companies need more marketers/ Business developers?

The bottom line is, the sustainability of any business be it Ponzi or whatever you choose to call it is having new members/customers.

Thank you!

kYjelly2:


Okay, so you say MMM doesn't really need new participants as long as old participants continue to PH.

Now lets put your answer into a model.

In our model we would have 10 MMM participants who each contributed N1000 or PH N1000, making a total PH of N10,000. Now the total GH would be expected to be 130% of this amount which would be N13,000.

According to our model, no new participants join, so we remain at 10 participants.

Already, we have a deficit between the GH and PH of N3,000 that cannot be covered as there are no new participants.

Now you say people can keep PH-ing and GH-ing, so lets account for that.

Say the first 5 people GH from the total pot of N10,000, they would each be expected to get N1,300 and a total of N6,500. If we subtract the N6,500 from the N10,000 we'd have only N3,500 left for the remaining 5 participants who won't all be able to GH.

Now the first 5 participants who GH-ed, according to you, could PH again. So now the first 5 participants PH N1,300 each, making the total sum of money now N3,500 + N6,500 = N10,000. Now the last 5 people can GH of N6,500 leaving only N3,500 left.

Keep in mind that those first 5 people that re-PH at N1,300 would now be expecting N1690 each and a total of N8,450 for all 5 of them.

Since all that is left is N3,500 it won't be enough to pay out the new deficit of N8,450.

We could repeat this cycle again and again and the only thing that would grow is the amount owed and an eventual crash.



In summary, with our first PH and GH, our deficit was only N3,000.

With a Re-PH our deficit has now ballooned to N8,450.


You can now see that a Re-PH only increase the deficit for each round of PH.



Do you agree with this analysis?

I'm not sure am following. Where's this leading to? I'm sorry am not that patient. Why are we using your model? I have my own model too



Fact has already been established that if GH becomes more than PH a problem is born.

Another fact you don't seem to factor is the timing.

What you're trying to do is same as saying if team A beat team B and team B beat team C then team A should beat team C. Doesn't work that way

DuchessR:
what you fail to know is pH can't exceed gh if the system is well designed like GHW. and also, tell me which business you know that won't need new customers to grow. Even 'our religion' is a pyramidal scheme.

I agree with you that MMM has its own shortcomings but if it can be addressed, it will surely stand the test of time.

Did you mean to say GH can't exceed PH? cause if you really mean't PH can't exceed GH, then that would really be a fallacy as Bill Gates could come tomorrow providing help of a billion dollars, OR the maximum allowed over and over either himself or with his associates.

Good point about businesses needing new customers to grow. On that point we totally agree, I'm so with you there!

However...

However, two things to note:
1.) According to the response from the eph12, no new participants are needed in MMM if PH-ing and GH-ing continues by old participants. My model was designed to shed some light on that scenario, not saying that new participants aren't needed.

2.)Yes, new customers are needed for a business to grow, but does a business always require new customers daily/weekly/monthly to turn a profit? For example, say you setup a brand new GYM and in your first 2 months, you only managed to pull in 20 customers, that may not be enough for you to turn a profit. If you however were able to get 2,000 loyal customers, each signing up for long term memberships, depending on your initial business startup cost and maintenance cost, you just might be able to turn in a profit as a business, even if no new customers sign up to your gym and only the 2,000 customers remain. The same however cannot be said about MMM as my model clearly shows.

eph12:

I'm not sure am following. Where's this leading to? I'm sorry am not that patient. Why are we using your model? I have my own model too



Fact has already been established that if GH becomes more than PH a problem is born.

Another fact you don't seem to factor is the timing.

What you're trying to do is same as saying if team A beat team B and team B beat team C then team A should beat team C. Doesn't work that way

They say "Men lie, Women lie, Numbers don't".

Not that I'm calling you a liar in this civil debate we are having, no, what I'm saying it that the numbers never lie, hence the clear model.

As I said earlier to duchessr, time is not a variant here, only numbers.

btw, Football/Soccer is not a game of numbers, else every soccer gambler on the planet would be a millionaire in each of their respective currencies, by just doing some addition and subtraction.

kYjelly2:


They say "Men lie, Women lie, Numbers don't".

Not that I'm calling you a liar in this civil debate we are having, no, what I'm saying it that the numbers never lie, hence the clear model.

As I said earlier to duchessr, time is not a variant here, only numbers.

btw, Football/Soccer is not a game of numbers, else every soccer gambler on the planet would be a millionaire in each of their respective currencies, by just doing some addition and subtraction.

Exactly at bold. Same goes for this.

Why is time not? Because you say so?

Lol...this is getting interesting.

A Bill Gate has maximum help he can provide on the platform so he can't just bring in outrageous amount of money then kill the system. Also don't forget I said some modifications are still needed to be made in other to make it stand the test of time.

About the gym you talked about, why not use a bank or an insurance company that has a lot of workers to settle I.e pay salaries to at the end of the month then see if new customers won't be needed to help borne down operational cost and overheads.
When these companies are having issues with low patronage, you see them start sacking their employees and also employing workers with little qualifications.

One sweet thing about debates, it's always hard to find a winner as both parties will have valid points to give. Good morning!

eph12:

Exactly at bold. Same goes for this.

Why is time not? Because you say so?

MMM is strictly a game of Numbers, numbers in and numbers out. There is no will power consideration, no fatigue consideration, no game plan consideration, no skill level consideration, no home/away motivational consideration, no injury consideration... just numbers in and numbers out and again, numbers don't lie.

Time is not a variant here as it pertains to the overall outcome of the numbers, time doesn't affect the numbers in anyway other than to be used as a tactic.

Case in point, you say the GH was greater than PH this December, correct? Again, numbers not lying. However to stall in order to postpone the inevitable or get more PH in the system, time was used as a variant.

So as you can clearly see, time played no role in GH exceeding PH this December (hence wasn't a variant in reaching this critical point), it was only a variant used in stalling. Time can never affect the eventual outcome of MMM, but can be used in creating an illusion of MMM being "long lasting".

OP I'm not siding anybody with this but I'll sleep comfortably today knowing that there are not just educated but wise and sensible people in Nigeria. Thanks for this Civil breakdown of pertinent questions.

talk2macs:





Hope you applied for N-power?

or peace corps abi ambode brt codc.......ntor

DuchessR:
Lol...this is getting interesting.

A Bill Gate has maximum help he can provide on the platform so he can't just bring in outrageous amount of money then kill the system. Also don't forget I said some modifications are still needed to be made in other to make it stand the test of time.

About the gym you talked about, why not use a bank or an insurance company that has a lot of workers to settle I.e pay salaries to at the end of the month then see if new customers won't be needed to help borne down operational cost and overheads.
When these companies are having issues with low patronage, you see them start sacking their employees and also employing workers with little qualifications.

One sweet thing about debates, it's always hard to find a winner as both parties will have valid points to give. Good morning!

I did take the maximum contribution into consideration when I said Bill Gates could go through his associates as well, meaning if the max you can PH is say 10 million naira for instance, then he could have associates of his each put in 10 million naira of HIS MONEY.

I hope you know that we do have small banks and small insurance companies in existence right? Not every bank is as huge as Bank of America per say.

A business has to cut it's coat according to it's size and there would obviously be a minimum threshold of the amount of customers needed to first keep a business in existence and then to turn a profit.

The question is, can a bank be sustained without new customers? Abosolutely yes! As long as they have passed their min threshold for no of customers needed to stay afloat. New customers at that point would simply equate to more profits and maybe more branches and more, more, more... but again, as said above, new customers would not be needed to keep the bank afloat as long as they have a min no of customers to stay afloat.

Again, same can't be said about MMM as my model has proved that within a closed loop of "investors", a crash is imminent.

kYjelly2:


MMM is strictly a game of Numbers, numbers in and numbers out. There is no will power consideration, no fatigue consideration, no game plan consideration, no skill level consideration, no home/away motivational consideration, no injury consideration... just numbers in and numbers out and again, numbers don't lie.

Time is not a variant here as it pertains to the overall outcome of the numbers, time doesn't affect the numbers in anyway other than to be used as a tactic.

Case in point, you say the GH was greater than PH this December, correct? Again, numbers not lying. However to stall in order to postpone the inevitable or get more PH in the system, time was used as a variant.

So as you can clearly see, time played no role in GH exceeding PH this December (hence wasn't a variant in reaching this critical point), it was only a variant used in stalling. Time can never affect the eventual outcome of MMM, but can be used in creating an illusion of MMM being "long lasting".

if MMM can bring in stricter rules like your current provide help must become your benchmark for your next provide help and also reduce the outrageous bonuses given to the guiders that does little to nothing on the platform, give a time restrictions to provide next help, and stop the Tuesdays and Thursdays mavro habit, I see it standing the test of time. This are the modifications needed and you will see it stand firm.

Don't forget business owners bring in new policies when they see business ain't moving as it should be hence the reduction in salary, increasing long working hours, cutting allowances, employing ND holders in replacement of B.Sc, some go as far as now paying workers salaries, recruiting contract staff so as to avoid paying pensions and many more.

You are such a brilliant person though and I like the way you write.

DuchessR:
if MMM can bring in stricter rules like your current provide help must become your benchmark for your next provide help and also reduce the outrageous bonuses given to the guiders that does little to nothing on the platform, give a time restrictions to provide next help, and stop the Tuesdays and Thursdays mavro habit, I see it standing the test of time. This are the modifications needed and you will see it stand firm.

Don't forget business owners bring in new policies when they see business ain't moving as it should be hence the reduction in salary, increasing long working hours, cutting allowances, employing ND holders in replacement of B.Sc, some go as far as now paying workers salaries, recruiting contract staff so as to avoid paying pensions and many more.

You are such a brilliant person though and I like the way you write.

Thanks duchess, you too. Thanks a bunch for your contributions on this topic.

Maybe we can continue this tomorrow as I need to get to bed, so i can get up early.

Thanks also eph12 for insights into MMM.

Hopefully we can continue this back and forth and all be enlightened in one way or the other.

cheers!

kYjelly2:


I did take the maximum contribution into consideration when I said Bill Gates could go through his associates as well, meaning if the max you can PH is say 10 million naira for instance, then he could have associates of his each put in 10 million naira of HIS MONEY.

I hope you know that we do have small banks and small insurance companies in existence right? Not every bank is as huge as Bank of America per say.

A business has to cut it's coat according to it's size and there would obviously be a minimum threshold of the amount of customers needed to first keep a business in existence and then to turn a profit.

The question is, can a bank be sustained without new customers? Abosolutely yes! As long as they have passed their min threshold for no of customers needed to stay afloat. New customers at that point would simply equate to more profits and maybe more branches and more, more, more... but again, as said above, new customers would not be needed to keep the bank afloat as long as they have a min no of customers to stay afloat.

Again, same can't be said about MMM as my model has proved that within a closed loop of "investors", a crash is imminent.

there are over 150million Nigerians and MMM participants are not up to 3million (meaning they haven't reached their minimum threshold) and I want you to know all members won't ask for help at the same time. And if members keep providing help and not getting scared of an untimely crash, then MMM will stay provided the modifications are put in place.

kYjelly2:


MMM is strictly a game of Numbers, numbers in and numbers out. There is no will power consideration, no fatigue consideration, no game plan consideration, no skill level consideration, no home/away motivational consideration, no injury consideration... just numbers in and numbers out and again, numbers don't lie.

Time is not a variant here as it pertains to the overall outcome of the numbers, time doesn't affect the numbers in anyway other than to be used as a tactic.

Case in point, you say the GH was greater than PH this December, correct? Again, numbers not lying. However to stall in order to postpone the inevitable or get more PH in the system, time was used as a variant.

So as you can clearly see, time played no role in GH exceeding PH this December (hence wasn't a variant in reaching this critical point), it was only a variant used in stalling. Time can never affect the eventual outcome of MMM, but can be used in creating an illusion of MMM being "long lasting".

I hope it doesn't sound insulting when I say you're boring me?

Going by your logic how is football not a game ot numbers? From the players, to the officials, football, fans, goals, cards etc. It's all numbers.

Some people would like to believe at bold that time played a role. Hello! This is festive period and people would definitely reduce the ph. Focus would be more on gh.

Any ways the system was always heading for collapse because there was no rule guiding ph. You can receive a bonus of 1 million and ph next time with 100k. That was one of the problems.

kYjelly2:


Thanks duchess, you too. Thanks a bunch for your contributions on this topic.

Maybe we can continue this tomorrow as I need to get to bed, so i can get up early.

Thanks also eph12 for insights into MMM.

Hopefully we can continue this back and forth and all be enlightened in one way or the other.

cheers!

sure, do have a good night rest. One thing I love about this debate is we are mature about it and every stance is welcomed. This is how graduates should debate in saner climes. Do have a good night rest