ChinenyeN:


You're discussing something other than what I am talking about. I'm not talking about the ethnic identity itself. I'm talking about the historical context surrounding it, and why it makes no sense for people to continue talking about some phantom "Igboness" defined outside of that historical context. The historical context is not only linguistics, but linguistics is the first and foremost contributing factor to that context.

PabloAfricanus, you are correct. The topic has been overflogged, hence my "Odo nunu?" statement at the beginning. To address your comment though, you are adding in words that I did not say. I stated specifically that Igbo is first and foremost a linguistic classification and the ethnic identity is after the fact. I did not call it secondary. The discussion of an "Igbo ethnic identity" is ultimately only one item in the entire historical context that we are now referring to as "Igbo". Dwelling on that specific item is beyond the scope of my particular post. The point of my post is to emphasize yet again just how much people clearly do not know about what "Igbo" truly is.

@Topic: As it is now, this topic will eventually get to the point where people will have to come to terms with the fact that either no one is Igbo or everyone who speaks Igbo is Igbo. Anything in between is arbitrary and neglects the historical context that created what we now call "Igbo people".

Semantics appear to be getting in the way, clearly if Fact B follows Fact A, then logically Fact B is secondary to and somehow dependent on Fact A..

That is where I beg to differ.
The most visible unit of societal cum political organization in "Igbo" land is clans.
Some of these clans have various ancestries and origins, as expected of people who have experienced migration over the centuries.
Ethnic identifiers wordwide are generally linked to some identifiable feature of the land, the people themselves, some deity, some
religious or cultural belief or language etc.
In this case, the most common name known to history among the Igbo speaking peoples is the very name of the language itself.
It is what the Igbo peoples called themselves. It was not picked from just one clan or one prominent Igbo community.
Heck, even the so-called Bini migrants in Onitsha and Oguta, right in the heart of core Igbo clans called their neighbours, whom they spoke the same language and practiced the same customs onye Igbo, till today.

My point is that the word "Igbo" among the Igbo speaking peoples is not recent or contemporary with colonial history.
If it were, then it will be acceptable to say that the name "Igbo" is just a linguistic classifier used to group together unrelated peoples
who spoke different versions of the same "Igbo" language.
I am arguing that interpretation in itself is erroneous and obscures the fact ethnic groups while related still retain the peculiarity of unique languages.

Igbo for all I can see appears to be the most visible appellation by which these peoples identified themselves.
While most clans identified themselves by their clans names and communities, the language and general name by which they called themselves
all over was "Igbo". And it was not just them, their neighbours too called them by that name "Igbo".
And all this was precolonial.
And I gave you instances of communities and surnames prefixed and suffixed by that name to buttress my point.
If you factor in the fact that Igbo dialects are as diverse as they are sometimes mutually unintelligible to otherwise Igbo clans,
don't you think that linguistic classification in this case, appears to be secondary to general Igbo ethnic identity?.

Probz:


And I'm saying that the Enuani, spoken in parts of Delta North, is an Igbo dialect and that the remaining two languages in Anioma (Ika and Ukwuani) are Igboid.

It's my understanding that Ngwa, Onitsha, Awka, etc., (even the less intelligible Waawa) are all dialects of the Igbo language. Ikwerre, Ika, Ogba, and the more divergent Ukwuani and Ekpeye are all Igboid languages.

Just like there's speakers of Yoruba and Igala and Itsekiri speakers. Igala and Itsekiri speak Yoruboid languages but they're not Yoruba.

My problem is with eastern Igbos calling every south-southerner who happens to speak an Igboid language (not even Igbo dialect) as Igbo because of linguistic similarities. Yorubas don't claim Igalas and Itsekiris in the way Igbos like to claim Ogbas and Ekpeyes.

It's not the average Nigerian that differentiates between Igbo proper vs. Igboid in Anioma or any other south-south region but it actually makes sense given how the Igbo denial wanes as you move further east from Agbor/Ika to Asaba (even though exceptions do exist). My reasoning is that these people may well be right to reject any affiliation with an ethnic group they don't even belong to but that the average Nigerian lumps in as 'Delta Igbo' for political reasons or convenience.

But the Igbo man in Anambra can understand the ukwuani man


And also ukwuani and oguta speaks exactly same

So ukwuani is Igboid language
Oguta is Igbo dialect


Ikwerre and ohaji speaks almost same dikaects
So ikwerre is an Igboid language
Ohaji is an Igbo dialect


Your definition is so faulty so faulty


If the Anambra man can understand the ukwuani man without the aid of interpreter ..Then ukwuani speaks same language with Anambra but a different dialect



You guys must stop this Igboid madness...Why always Igbo . What about hausaoid language

Linguists, however, do make a distinction between the two based on the concept of mutual intelligibility. Two languages where speakers can understand each other are considered dialects of the same language, whereas two languages where the speakers cannot understand each other are, indeed, separate languages.

This often isn't black and white, since understand can be a hard criterion to pin down. There's no well-established way this has been operationalized.

All these arm chair linguistics teachers can't even differentiate between language and dialect.


So much daftness here



How can you speak a different language yet I don't need an interpreter .

If there is Igboid language that is different from Igbo...If means that both won't even understand each other unless they employ an interpreter


But if they don't , then they speak same language but different dialect


If an anambra man can understand the guy in Agbor and they can communicate ..Then they speak Igbo with different dialect and accent . There is nothing like Igboid language ...Because the term language rubbishes all other postulations


You guys have to give Igbo a break



This stupidity is getting out of hand

PabloAfricanus, you're essentially arguing a point that is ultimately outside the scope of my statement. Your point is relevant though. Specifically, it is relevant to the subject of the historical context, but it is ultimately not the point I am making. You are discussing details of the historical context, while I am simply drawing people's attention to the fact that any attempt to draw lines between "Igbo proper" and "Igboid" is essentially an arbitrary exercise. It results in a farce, because the rules one person uses to draw those lines cannot be uniformly applied to all other contexts, and the aforementioned lines neglect the historical context that gave birth to what we know as "Igbo identity".

Eventually, Nigerians will have to learn. Either nobody is Igbo, or everyone who speaks a type of Igbo is Igbo. Anything in between is arbitrary, and an insult to the various peoples involved.

Wulfruna:


Listen, do not quote me again if you can't say something smart. You obviously did not read beyond the title. The writer started off by trying to tell us which of the Anioma groups are pure Igbo and which one are Edo hybrids.

He or she claimed Ika and Ukwuani as Edoid-Igboid and Enuani as pure Igbo. My comments only intended to point out that Enuani has a lot of clans who do not lay claim to pure Igbo blood (as he thinks), but are also "Edoid-Igbo", to use his language. I mentioned two prominent Enuani individuals who disclaim Igboness in order to highlight that such denials exist in Enuani as much as they exist in Ika and Ukwuani.

The only derailer here is you, with your lack of comprehension and eagerness to pick a pointless fight. Seek understanding or stop quoting me.

Who are you writing an epistle to? I understand you fully. You're only being mischievous. Over 97% Enuani people are comfortable being addressed as Igbos so what's your point? The Op did an excellent job in laying down facts without stirring up dust unnecessary. I suggest you stick to the script.

ChinenyeN:
Odo nunu?

It's as if people are neglecting the historical context of how "Igbo" people even became "Igbo" people to begin with. Igbo is first and foremost a linguistic classification. The ethnic identity is after the fact, and it isn't something that everyone accepts. So, if your community's vernacular is by definition an Igbo speech form, then you are by definition classified as an Igbo-speaking person. Ethnic identity is a different discussion.

People who try to use this newfound ethnic identity to delineate relationship do all the communities in "Igboland" a strong disservice, because pre-colonial relationships between communities had nothing to do with "Igbo" identity. You will see otherwise "Igbo" communities with historical, cultural and ethnic ties with otherwise "Ijaw" communities, or otherwise "Igala" communities or otherwise "Ibibio" communities, or otherwise "Edo" communities or otherwise... ah you get my point.

This idea of "truly Igbo" or "genuinely Igbo" is a farce and does nothing more than insult the pre-colonial histories of various "Igbo" peoples.

The last paragraph...Though I know it's a farce I don't argue against such names as "truly Igbo" because the prevailing political climate in Nigeria has made it so.

laudate:

I like the word. Is that a crime?

Little wonder you abuse it.

iSlayer2:


Who are you writing an epistle to?.

Yea, I shouldn't have. My mistake. I forgot you can't read anything that goes beyond a few lines. The reason why you didn't read down the original post. The reason why you didn't understand that I was responding to something that was actually in the original post.

I see actual derailers here, bringing in Ibani Ijaws on a post the Ibani Ijaws weren't even mentioned to start with. But my little comments are the ones biting your intestines.

This reply is already too long for your short attention span to handle, so I'd better stop.

AjiereTuwo:

That's because i am not one, dis is a discussion forum, if u dispute my information, post why you feel otherwise with your facts, the Ndoki name is gotten from the term Aminadoghukiari(i have search and found my relative ) in Ijaw, Ndoki towns still bear Ijaw names like Okoloma, Akirika, osobie,azuogu, oruama etc the member representing Ukwa East is named Paul Taribo

Please explain to me why want to talk about Ijaw on a thread that isn't about Ijaw people if you aren't here to troll.

You just went on a Somali thread opened by a Somali and started talking about ipob, igbo and Biafra. And you claim not to be a troll.

It doesn't suit you. This is Christmas. Go out. Enjoy yourself. Don't let this Igbo obsession turn you into a miserable person.

Wulfruna:


Yea, I shouldn't have. My mistake. I forgot you can't read anything that goes beyond a few lines. The reason why you didn't read down the original post. The reason why you didn't understand that I was responding to something that was actually in the original post.

I see actual derailers here, bringing in Ibani Ijaws on a post the Ibani Ijaws weren't even mentioned to start with. But my little comments are the ones biting your intestines.

This reply is already too long for your short attention span to handle, so I'd better stop.

Stop whining and keep shut. You were being mischievous and was called. Suck it up.

iSlayer2:


Stop whining and keep shut. You were being mischievous and was called. Suck it up.

I wasn't being mischievous. I was addressing what I perceived to be an incorrect assertion on the OP. You, on the other hand, appear to want to derail (something you accused me of, ironically) and be stupid. I can help you fool yourself if that's what you want. I have done it before to other people on this platform.

Quote me again, and you'll know I can hold my own in an insulting march.

Wulfruna:
Lauretta Onochie and Sunny Ofili who are very anti-Igbo are from Enuani.

Laureta Onochie is from Ika.

@As much as you tried to use objectivity to drive home your point, i don't think using objectivity like you have done can give you a true picture. The only thing i see you doing is that those you classified as Igbos are those that have typical Igbo idiosyncrasies. Notice my usage of the word "typical". I don't know why people tend to define Igbos by popular characteristics of people from the South-East which could have come due to the unique history that they share. It's just like saying someone doesn't look Igbo because they cannot hustle like the average Igbo man without realizing that even hustling really hard is a popular behavior of Igbo people, it's not the only behavior of Igbo people. There are Igbo people that are lazy. there are Igbo people that cannot do business etc.

I think it's pertient that you tell us why you think Ika for example are from Edo as opposed to Enuani? let me guess: is it because they have an Edo influence on their Igboid language? or they could be Edo with Igbo influence. it depends on how you look at it.

it's imperative that Igbo is not a homogenous group and as such all Igbo people should not be exactly the same or have the same political inclination. There are Igbo people and there are people people. There are Igbo people that according to natural order are Igbos based on their language, culture and tradition but they could decide not to go with the Igbo tag. I remember one Ndoni guy on this forum who swore that ndoki was not Igbo but he agreed that all the "BIA" speaking tribes should come together and give themselves a new name but not "Igbo". That's when i realized the fact that the fear of these people isn't necessarily about working the SE Igbos but the fact that being tagged Igbo will swallow their uniqqueness and dissipate them into nothingness. It's just like telling an Annang person to call himself Ibibio.

Wulfruna:


I wasn't being mischievous. I was addressing what I perceived to be an incorrect assertion on the OP. You, on the other hand, appear to want to derail (something you accused me of, ironically) and be stupid. I can help you fool yourself if that's what you want. I have done it before to other people on this platform.

Quote me again, and you'll know I can hold my own in an insulting march.

Stop whining,keep shut and then go and sit down. Nobody will tell you when I'm ready for you.

iSlayer2:


Stop whining,keep shut and then go and seat down. Nobody will tell you when I'm ready for you.

You are the only whiner in this entire thread. You are not only a whiner, you are also a pathetic attention-seeker and probably a loner with nothing better to do than sniffing my ass on NL.

Get off my mentions and get a life.

Afam4eva:

Laureta Onochie is from Ika.

@As much as you tried to use objectivity to drive home your point, i don't think using objectivity like you have done can give you a true picture. The only thing i see you doing is that those you classified as Igbos are those that have typical Igbo idiosyncrasies. Notice my usage of the word "typical". I don't know why people tend to define Igbos by popular characteristics of people from the South-East which could have come due to the unique history that they share. It's just like saying someone doesn't look Igbo because they cannot hustle like the average Igbo man without realizing that even hustling really hard is a popular behavior of Igbo people, it's not the only behavior of Igbo people. There are Igbo people that are lazy. there are Igbo people that cannot do business etc.

I think it's pertient that you tell us why you think Ika for example are from Edo as opposed to Enuani? let me guess: is it because they have an Edo influence on their Igboid language? or they could be Edo with Igbo influence. it depends on how you look at it.

it's imperative that Igbo is not a homogenous group and as such all Igbo people should not be exactly the same or have the same political inclination. There are Igbo people and there are people people. There are Igbo people that according to natural order are Igbos based on their language, culture and tradition but they could decide not to go with the Igbo tag. I remember one Ndoni guy on this forum who swore that ndoki was not Igbo but he agreed that all the "BIA" speaking tribes should come together and give themselves a new name but not "Igbo". That's when i realized the fact that the fear of these people isn't necessarily about working the SE Igbos but the fact that being tagged Igbo will swallow their uniqqueness and dissipate them into nothingness. It's just like telling an Annang person to call himself Ibibio.

You people do not even understand the point of my posts here. The OP is the one dividing the Igbo-speaking world into true Igbos and non-true Igbos. I am not the one doing it. He is also the one using the presence or absence of traditions of Edo origins to divide the Igbo-speaking world into true Igbos and non-true Igbos. I am not the one doing it.

My point (which everyone seems to have missed) is that making such a demarcation is an exercise in futility, as you will still encounter 'Igbo-speaking' people within the so-called 'true' Igbo groups who also claim Bini blood and deny being Igbo.

My point: Don't bother making a division. It will be futile. There are those who claim Igbo roots in Ika; there are those who claim Bini roots in Ika. There are those who claim Igbo roots in Enuani; there are those who claim Bini roots in Enuani. You don't get to arbitrarily draw a line, and say 'This side, pure Igbo; this side, Bini-mixed'.

Is this a difficult argument to follow?


BTW, I was told by Anioma friends that Onochie is Aniocha. I will ask again, but if there's anything that can support what you say, I will accept it.

Wulfruna:


You people do not even understand the point of my posts here. The OP is the one dividing the Igbo-speaking world into true Igbos and non-true Igbos. I am not the one doing it.

My point (which everyone seems to have missed) is that making such a demarcation is an exercise in futility, as you will still encounter 'Igbo-speaking' people within the so-called 'true' Igbo groups who also claim Bini blood and deny being Igbo.

My point: Don't bother making a division. It will be futile. There are those who claim Igbo roots in Ika; there are those who claim Bini roots in Ika. There are those who claim Igbo roots in Enuani; there are those who claim Bini roots in Enuani. You don't get to arbitrarily draw a line, and say 'This side, pure Igbo; this side Bini-mixed'.

Is this a difficult argument to follow?


BTW, I was told by Anioma friends that Onochie is Aniocha. I will ask again, but if there's anything that can support what you say, I will accept it.

I understand where you're coming from and i covered that a bit in my post. he feels Aniocha are more Igbo than Ika because their dialect is more similar to what is spoken in the east than Ika. I'm sure he's aware that there are people from Aniocha that disclaim the Igbo tag even though they may be in the minority compared to those who do the same in Ika. I guess that's just the way the OP understands it.

iSlayer2:
The last paragraph...Though I know it's a farce I don't argue against such names as "truly Igbo" because the prevailing political climate in Nigeria has made it so.

So, you're simply participating in perpetuating this ongoing, arbitrary exercise. "Truly Igbo" by the prevailing Nigerian political climate is equivalent to having your village in either Anambra, Enugu, Abia, Ebonyi, Imo state. Yet, these state lines are all nothing more than administrative boundaries which were not drawn with respect to the histories and affiliations of the communities being governed. So, again another arbitrary exercise.

To make a long story short, I understand that there is a reality to the situation. In the political climate, the reality is that "truly Igbo" is SE. It still does not change the fact that such reality is an example of arbitrary demarcations. That is the point I'm making. The OP of this post and others who join in to discuss "this is Igbo" and "this is not Igbo" are doing nothing more than creating arbitrary definitions.

ChinenyeN:


So, you're simply participating in perpetuating this ongoing, arbitrary exercise. "Truly Igbo" by the prevailing Nigerian political climate is equivalent to having your village in either Anambra, Enugu, Abia, Ebonyi, Imo state. Yet, these state lines are all nothing more than administrative boundaries which were not drawn with respect to the histories and affiliations of the communities being administered. So, again another arbitrary exercise.

To make a long story short, I understand that there is a reality to the situation. In the political climate, the reality is that "truly Igbo" is SE. It still does not change the fact that such reality is an example of arbitrary demarcations. That is the point I'm making. The OP of this post and others who join in to discuss "this is Igbo" and "this is not Igbo" are doing nothing creating arbitrary definitions.

I agree with you. I'm only taking cognizance of prevailing conditions. i.e being realistic.

Wulfruna:


You are the only whiner in this entire thread. You are not only a whiner, you are also a pathetic attention-seeker and probably a loner with nothing better to do than sniffing my ass on NL.

Get off my mentions and get a life.

Oh shut up already

iSlayer2:


Oh shut up already

LOL, I thought you had more fight in you, little nigga. Tired of being stupid already?

Wulfruna:


LOL, I thought you had more fight in you, little nigga. Tired of being stupid already?

Fight?! Little Nigga?! Okay. No P.

^ This one went tame too soon. I thought this was going to be more fun. Oh well...

AmuDimpka:
All these arm chair linguistics teachers can't even differentiate between language and dialect.


So much daftness here



How can you speak a different language yet I don't need an interpreter .

If there is Igboid language that is different from Igbo...If means that both won't even understand each other unless they employ an interpreter


But if they don't , then they speak same language but different dialect


If an anambra man can understand the guy in Agbor and they can communicate ..Then they speak Igbo with different dialect and accent . There is nothing like Igboid language ...Because the term language rubbishes all other postulations


You guys have to give Igbo a break



This stupidity is getting out of hand

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igboid_languages

My question is, are Ikas and Ukwuania culturally Igbo or not?

Probz:


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igboid_languages

My question is, are Ikas and Ukwuania culturally Igbo or not?

"Culturally Igbo". Hmm.

In your opinion, Probz, what and what constitute Igbo culture?

Haha. RedboneSmith, you want to walk Probz into muddy waters abi?

iSlayer2:
Little wonder you abuse it.

You are free to kindly hug the nearest transformer with wet hands, since my use of a particular word causes you so much pain & heartache.

ChinenyeN:
Haha. RedboneSmith, you want to walk Probz into muddy waters abi?

My intention is to slow-walk him into an epiphany, as Sheldon Cooper would say.

Wulfruna:
^ This one went tame too soon. I thought this was going to be more fun. Oh well...

This must mean alot to you. You're itching all over. I just dey look you.

laudate:


You are free to kindly hug the nearest transformer with wet hands, since my use of a particular word causes you so much pain & heartache.

Run along child,I ain't got sweets

RedboneSmith:


"Culturally Igbo". Hmm.

In your opinion, Probz, what and what constitute Igbo culture?

The very same grounds that differentiate Yoruba from Ishekiri/Igala (shared traditions/customs and religion, food, etc.).

Probz:


The very same grounds that differentiate Yoruba from Ishekiri/Igala (shared traditions/customs and religion, food, etc.).

Yorubas and Igalas don't share the same culture though.
Even language wise, Yorubas can't really understand Igala, they can only pick out some words when they are speaking deeply, otherwise, it is hard for a Yoruba to understand an Igala person, except maybe some very few phrases.
Itsekiri is sooo much easier.