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| Death Of Jesus,evidence From The Quran. by Niyi53(m): 4:29pm On Nov 25, 2009 |
The Holy Quran has clearly mentioned that jesus (isa ibn maryam) is dead. 5:116-117;3:56 etc. And it is against the idea that he was raised up to the heavens. |
| Re: Death Of Jesus,evidence From The Quran. by muhsin(m): 5:37pm On Nov 25, 2009 |
Does the OP deserve any attention? |
| Re: Death Of Jesus,evidence From The Quran. by Niyi53(m): 7:26pm On Nov 25, 2009 |
I believe in the quran nd hadith. 1 Like |
| Re: Death Of Jesus,evidence From The Quran. by Niyi53(m): 8:26pm On Nov 25, 2009 |
This are some of the verses that speaks about the death of Jesus. 'When Allah said, 'O Jesus, I will cause thee to die (a natural death), and will exalt thee to Myself, and will clear thee from the charges of those who disbelieve, and will place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, untill the Day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, and i will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ.(3:55) ", And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou hast been the Watcher over them;, "5:117 And Muhammad is only a Messenger. Verily, all Messengers have passed away before him. (3:145). 1 Like |
| Re: Death Of Jesus,evidence From The Quran. by Niyi53(m): 4:48am On Nov 26, 2009 |
Yes, i do accept. |
| Re: Death Of Jesus,evidence From The Quran. by olabowale(m): 5:24am On Nov 26, 2009 |
@Niyi53: The tone of the verses, was it of future event, a thing being told to Jesus at that time, or what is it? Is it not of a past statement told to somebody (Jesus AS) at some earlier time? Is it not now being narrated to Muhammad (AS) of what has been promised to Jesus in his lifetime, a thing that must happen to him, sometimes in the future? Is there a reason to raise him up and then return him to die again, if he has already died, naturally as you said? How many times shall he die and for what purpose, as a believer, a prophet, a muslim? Is he being punished by allowing him to die more than once, or was he never raise and will not return to earth? I will let others handle this, since Quran is very specific about the condition of Jesus. 1 Like |
| Re: Death Of Jesus,evidence From The Quran. by olabowale(m): 5:43am On Nov 26, 2009 |
In surah Fajr, when Allah says enter My Garden (Paradise) does it mean that everyone who will enter it are already in it, or it is a thing of the future, already revealed? What about Surah Maidah where Allah says to Jesus today you have spoken the truth, enter my garden after jesus said that after you took me away from the people you are the Watcher over them, the event of the dialogue of the day of Judgement by Allah to His slave Jesus, has it took place yet, or is it a thing of the future, like entering jannah promised believers? |
| Re: Death Of Jesus,evidence From The Quran. by Niyi53(m): 8:44am On Nov 26, 2009 |
Assalamu alaikum. The promises made by God (in 3:55) to jesus is true. Firstly,God says 'innii mutawaffiika' this is meaning 'i will cause you to die'. God said this to make jesus know that the jews cannot bring about his death. The other promises have already been fulfilled but the first one is said not to have been fulfilled. The word 'Tawaffa' means to 'cause to die' and is supported by the quran, hadith, lexicons, arabic literature,dictionaries,and so on. It means to take the life in sleep only in two places (6:60,39:42). Where it means cause to die is 12:101,8:50,3:193,39:42 etc. |
| Re: Death Of Jesus,evidence From The Quran. by Niyi53(m): 8:45am On Nov 26, 2009 |
Assalamu alaikum. The promises made by God (in 3:55) to jesus is true. Firstly,God says 'innii mutawaffiika' this is meaning 'i will cause you to die'. God said this to make jesus know that the jews cannot bring about his death. The other promises have already been fulfilled but the first one is said not to have been fulfilled. The word 'Tawaffa' means to 'cause to die' and is supported by the quran, hadith, lexicons, arabic literature,dictionaries,and so on. It means to take the life in sleep only in two places (6:60,39:42). Where it means cause to die is 12:101,8:50,3:193,39:42 etc. |
| Re: Death Of Jesus,evidence From The Quran. by kolaoloye(m): 10:22am On Nov 26, 2009 |
abuzola999:Wamakharu wamakharo lahu wallahu hairu minal limukirhina. He (Jesus) was lifted up on the third day after his crucification. It was after the price had been paid fully, for you and I. |
| Re: Death Of Jesus,evidence From The Quran. by Niyi53(m): 10:27am On Nov 26, 2009 |
Assalamu alaikum. Lets take it one by one. We should discuss the meaning of 'TAWAFFA' according to the Holy Quran and the Hadith. If you say it means cause to sleep, then in 5:117, it would mean that 1)Jesus was sleeping till the day of judgement because the discussing in that verse is going to be on the day of judgement.2)if you say that he was taken up to heaven, and he would come back in the latter days, then according to that verse, he would be a lair for saying that he was ignorant of the fact that he and his mother were been worshipped. Therefore, i would like that you bring other verses which says that TAWAFFA means 'sleep' AS YOU ARGUE. I want you to know that in bukhari, kitabu u tafsir, under 5:117, it is written that when some muslims would be taken to hell, the holy prophet would want to intercede for then, then Allah the Almighty would tell him that he doesnt know what they were doing after him, then the Holy Prophet would also say the same statement which Jesus made,'falammaa tawaffaitanii kunta anta raqiba alihim', does it mean here that the holy prophet was made to sleep? |
| Re: Death Of Jesus,evidence From The Quran. by kolaoloye(m): 10:30am On Nov 26, 2009 |
olabowale:Jesus died once and resurrected, he was then lifted up by God (Allah). He is not coming to die again. He said: "in my fathers house there are many mansions,i go to prepare a place for you after which i shall return to take you so that you can be with me and my father". Sir,this is the reason why you should be born again and partake of this promise.Heaven is real. |
| Re: Death Of Jesus,evidence From The Quran. by Niyi53(m): 10:53am On Nov 26, 2009 |
abuzola999:pls, try to quote points and not out of points. The verse before it says : 'wa ma muhammadu illa rasulu qadkalat min qablihi rusulu, ' know that the first consensus of opinion occured after the death of the holy prophet (saw), when hazrat umar (ra) said that the holy prophet has not died and hazrat Abu Bakr recited this verse, the companions unanimously agreed. Had any one believed that jesus is alive in heaven, then a person like umar would have disagreed with him. |
| Re: Death Of Jesus,evidence From The Quran. by olabowale(m): 12:33pm On Nov 26, 2009 |
@Kola Oloye: « #16 on: Today at 10:22:06 AM » :Let get Kola out of the way so that we the believers can discuss among ourselves guiding one another as Only Allah can permit. Quote from: abuzola999 on Today at 10:07:03 AMthe bolded contain the question and you answered with Quran Verse which loosely translate to 'and they planned and Allah planned (because of their plan so that He renders it useless)and Allah is the Best of Planners'. And you follow it with your Biblical jingoism! Is Quran and Bible in interplay, interwoven in verses? Of course not in the issue of Jesus! If you wanna argue by your Bible by all means, but pretending that you understand the Quran by quoting completely unrelated verse to this topic of discussion is pretentious to say the least. Jesus might have died in your Bible, that alone knocks him out of the box to ever to be considered as anything other than the human messenger that he was! Our argument is therefore not about your viewpoint of dying on the cross, but educating and pointing out to one another by Quranic verses which has overwhelming statement about he not been death up to the time he was raised up. His condition after that is known for sure by Allah, and the supplimentary argument to solidify the primary point is that Jesus will be returned as part of the signs of last day. Only a slider of muslim minority disbelief in the two or at least one, which is why we are talking about it! « #18 on: Today at 10:30:41 AM »Suddenly you recognised Allah now that you hope you can draw out any thread to help your Biblical Christian understanding!It does not work like that, since there is no place that Jesus is be clearly stated to have died, yet in the Quran. If you know it, please tell us and conjecture will not be acccepted! Finally, you are an architect and you do know that in a house, there are many rooms, there could never be many "mansions" in a single house, you may have many house within a house. No many mansions within a house, never! In any case, some of the mansions, houses, rooms within the house have to be in gradations; the highest fit for the master of the house and definitely the lowest is like a toilet and if a person is asked to live in it, he knows there is no joy in happyland but doom and despire! We should not forget that the Bible declares that Jesus said that whosoever suggest that the laws and the prophets be abrogated or abandoned, such a one can not be among the honored but must be dishonored being the least in the kingdom! No? Thats where your problem lies, Kola. You better return to Islam and stop carrying wrong knowledge whereby it is a means of punishment! |
| Re: Death Of Jesus,evidence From The Quran. by Nobody: 2:05pm On Nov 26, 2009 |
Niyi53: Salam my brother, If u truely believe in d Quran nd d Sunnah, There are lots of proofs in them about d return or Isa A.S. Allah the most high said in Quran 43 verse 61: And indeed he Jesus shall be a sign for knowledge of the hour so be be not in doubt of it, and follow me, This is a straight path. |
| Re: Death Of Jesus,evidence From The Quran. by Niyi53(m): 9:43pm On Nov 26, 2009 |
Law prince:pls know that i also believe that jesus is coming back but it is not that jesus sent to the children of israel. Also pls provide other Quranic evidence that says he is not dead. |
| Re: Death Of Jesus,evidence From The Quran. by Nobody: 11:21pm On Nov 26, 2009 |
Hey every muslim people listen and listen 'very carefully cuz the almighty GOD in heaven is not a GOD of confusion'''right?'' yessssssssssssssssssss, (1.answer this questions and stop beating around the bush and face the facts cuz u cannot change the facts ok, 1.is the BIBLE older in existence before koran  ??, YES2.Is CHRISTIANITY in existence for hundreds of years before islam ? , YES3.Was JESUS CHRIST IN EXISTENCE AND died and rose again before your muhamed , YES.4.Is there only ONE way to HEAVEN/GOD ??, YESIf the whole answers are YES YES YES YES ,then islam and every other fake religion dont stand a chance in making heaven cuz your answers are the keys to your real FAITH on where u will land on the last day of judgement ok. So my question is that is GOD a GOD of CONFUSION? , NO NO NO NO,cuz our GOD is a perfect ,unchangeable and the GOD of today,tomorrow and forever, for this reasons i dont think he will come with islam and CHRISTIANITY,ETC religion to put us into confusion,war,killing in the name of allah,etc, a word is enough for the wise,i wont say much but use your own hand to decide your faith cuz its one man race ok.answer for urself . |
| Re: Death Of Jesus,evidence From The Quran. by olabowale(m): 12:41am On Nov 27, 2009 |
I was just wondering if the foundamental question about Jesus to Niyi53 is if he can tell us how Jesus left from being removed from the hanging tree (if he did not die on the cross) to getting himself to India where Niyi53 says he died, shunting all the things that are in the Quran (being lifted up to Allah in body and soul. By the way thats the same way that Muhammad (AS) was lifted to heavens in Isra wa Miraj night journey), and the injuction that isa bin Maryam will be returned to earth? I read above where Niyi53 said that the Jesus to return marking a sign of the end of time is not the same as isa bin Maryam! Which isa will be coming back and how do you rekorn this and will that Jesus die before the ressurrection of all mankind, to begin judgement? |
| Re: Death Of Jesus,evidence From The Quran. by IbrahimB: 7:32pm On Nov 27, 2009 |
This are some of the verses that speaks about the death of Jesus. The Arabic word "tawwaffika" has various meanings it could mean death and it could also mean to raise or take up. While death, "maut", invariably leads to "tawwaffa" the reverse is not the case. The proper name for death in Arabic is "maut" And perhaps to prove that, in the very next sura, 6:60, Allah used the same word "tawwaf" to refer to a non-death scenario: "It is He Who takes (ya[b]tawaffak[/b]um) your souls by night, and has knowledge of all that you have done by day, then He raises (wakes) you up again , " Muslims believe that Jesus was miraculously saved by God from the Jews, raised up to Heaven and during the last days will return (We are in agreement with Christians here), be a King/ Ruler and fight and triumph over the scourge of the Anti-christ and restore monotheism. According to traditions, He will be a contemporary of the Mahdi , You said you believe in the Quran and Hadith. It's sad you could only quote the Quran to support your claims. It's sad you ignored the numerous traditions that indicate that Isa did not die but was raised up to Heaven. Whenever the companions did not understand a verse of the Quran they referred the matter to the Prophet - Have you done that? |
| Re: Death Of Jesus,evidence From The Quran. by Niyi53(m): 10:11pm On Nov 27, 2009 |
IbrahimB:lets decide the meaning of TAWAFFA from the holy quran and from the hadith. The hadith never support the belief that jesus is alive in heaven, if you think that he is not dead, then present the hadith that says it. In the quran, TAWAFFA never in a place in the quran mean raise up. The verse 60 of ch 6, means the taking of the soul and not the body. There are more than 20 places in the holy quran where this words are used it neva mean raised up but caused to die. Pls present the tradition that u said is in support of your view. |
| Re: Death Of Jesus,evidence From The Quran. by IbrahimB: 1:47am On Nov 28, 2009 |
1. There are other verses of the Qur'an that refer to Isa's ascension: But Allah raised (rafa'ah) him (i.e. Isa) up unto Himself. And Allah is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise Qur'an 4:158 This verse clearly refers to the same incident as Qur'an 5:117 i.e. Allah's foiling of the Jewish conspiracy to kill Prophet Isa (A.S). In this verse, Allah uses rafa'ah to describe the incident. Since they refer to the same incident we can on the strength of this, say that the tawwafa in Qur'an 5:117 meant to take up or raise and not to cause to die. I concede: tawwafa lexically doesn't mean to raise (rafa'ah) (just as it lexically does not mean death). However within this context, we should understand it to mean Isa's (AS) ascension i.e being raised. 2. About the meaning of "tawwafa". Lexically, the word means "to take in full". This being its real meaning, its derivations wafa, ifa, and istifa are used to convey that sense. It's oft application to death is only figurative but that does not change its actual meaning and that has not deterred it's being used to take other meanings as exemplified by Qur'an 6:60 According to ibn Taymiyyah "Al-tawaffi, in the Arabic language, means: to exact fully or take in full. It takes three forms; the first: to take in sleep; the second: to take in death; and the third: to take the soul and the body all together." Thus Isa (A.S) was raised or taken in full (i.e. body and soul to heaven) Reference: http://www.as-sidq.org/isa.html. 3. Where is Isa (A.S) now? According to the ahaadith on Miraj and Isra, Isa is presently in the 2nd Heaven and the Prophet met him and even gave a description of his physical attributes. 4. Hadith and Verses indicating his 2nd Coming Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, surely (Jesus,) the son of Mary will soon descend amongst you and will judge mankind justly (as a Just Ruler)' (See Fateh Al Bari, Page 302 Vol 7) Hadith - Sahih Bukhari 4.658, Narrated Abu Huraira, r.a. Allah's Apostle said "How will you be when the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you and he will judge people by the Law of the Qur'an and not by the law of Gospel (Fateh-ul Bari page 304 and 305 Vol 7). The Hour will not be established until the son of Maryam (as) (i.e. ‘Isa (as)) descends amongst you as a just ruler. (Bukhari) And he (i.e. Isa (AS)) will be known sign for the coming of the hour. Quran 43:61 i.e. when Isa comes the Hour is impending. 5. The death of Isa (A.S) Isa is a son of Adam and thus will die like all other mortals. His death will not be in the hands of the Jews (as indicated by the Qur'an) but naturally during his second coming: He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him. (Abu Dawud, Book 37 No. 4310) Man only dies once, we conclude on the strength of this hadith, that he couldn't then have died at that time as that will mean dying twice. -------------------------------- PS This is the majority view of muslim scholars: that Isa was raised in body and spirit to the heavens and that he will die naturally on his second coming. However the Ahmadis believe (that although he wasn't crucified) he nevertheless went on to die naturally. And more than that, married and also bore children. So I understand where you're coming from. And Allah knows best |
| Re: Death Of Jesus,evidence From The Quran. by Abuzola11(m): 5:27pm On Nov 28, 2009 |
Exactly my point, jazakhallahu khairan ya Ibrahim, more point coming soon |
| Re: Death Of Jesus,evidence From The Quran. by Niyi53(m): 8:48pm On Nov 28, 2009 |
IbrahimB: |
| Re: Death Of Jesus,evidence From The Quran. by Niyi53(m): 9:01pm On Nov 28, 2009 |
IbrahimB: |
| Re: Death Of Jesus,evidence From The Quran. by Abuzola11(m): 9:19pm On Nov 28, 2009 |
What shall we do since you reject the hadith of sahih bukhari |
| Re: Death Of Jesus,evidence From The Quran. by Niyi53(m): 10:01pm On Nov 28, 2009 |
I am not rejecting the hadith. If you read bukhari very well, you will come across where the holy prophet (saw) gave the description of the jesus of the israelites and the description of the coming jesus. Though it was a vision. That of the first jesus was described under the tradition which discusses about the miraj, while that of the later jesus was described under the traditions which discusses about dajjal. |
| Re: Death Of Jesus,evidence From The Quran. by Abuzola11(m): 10:57pm On Nov 28, 2009 |
Are you now saying that two jesus exist |
| Re: Death Of Jesus,evidence From The Quran. by IbrahimB: 1:02am On Nov 29, 2009 |
The word rafaha does not mean to raise one physically but spiritually. Rafaha has been used in different places in the holy quran, and i will appreciate it if you will present to me some places in the holy quran where it is used physically when refering to Allah. My reply:- 1. Well I don't know the meaning of rafaha but I guess you mean rafa'a? 2. What are your sources that the word rafa'a does not mean to raise one physically but spiritually? 3. i will appreciate it if you will present to me some places in the holy quran where it is used physically when refering to Allah Well the Ayah I quoted was referering to Isa and not Allah. In grammar we say "Isa is the object on whom the action (i.e. being raised) was performed". And the "unto Himself" of course does not mean side-by-side with Allah but that Isa was raised into Allah's security and protection in heaven. 4. Moreover, where is Allah before you say jesus is been raised? Allah tells us in Surah 20:5: The Most Gracious rose over (Istawa) the Throne 5. ALLAH says He is every where Your God is God alone, there is no deity but Him. He encompasses all things in His knowledge. (Surah Ta Ha: 98). The majority view of the scholars (ahl sunnah wal jamma'a) is that Allah does not intermingle in His essence with His creation but He encompasses creation with His Knowledge and Might. He sees, is aware and has power over you wherever you are. In language we would say "God is with us". But this proximity (said to be even closer than the jugular vein in an Ayah) is not that His very essence is in contact with us and the rest of creation. No. He sees the blood as it flows through our veins; He sees the death and birth of the cells in our bones; He hears the light fall of the leaf on the grass and He sees the earthworm as it moves its way upwards through the soil. Nothing escapes Him. And He doesn't have to be "physically" everywhere to be able to do this And that's why in Surah Jinn the Jinns say: "And we do not think that we can ever escape Allah in the earth nor escape Him by flight" I do not want to discuss much on this as it will only make us spiral into vain argumentation and we lose focus. You may open another thread on this if you wish. 6. According to Hadith Isa is presently in the 2nd Heaven. Is it only jesus that was seen in the journey? If it is that he is in paradise, then it means that he is dead, because one cannot enter the paradise with this physical body. I have some important points to make here: a) Who says if you're in paradise then you must be dead? Were Adam and Hauwa dead when they were in paradise? b) Who says we are not entering the paradise with the physical body? Where Adam and Hauwa not "flesh and blood" while in paradise? What are your sources? c) In any case, where has the 2nd Heaven e v e r being equated with paradise? d) Well there is no promise to break. The promise was to the denizens of the paradise after reward and punishment have been decided. Or will you say Allah has broken His promise when Adam and Hauwa were taken from the Paradise? You should understand the promise within its context. 7. From your definition of rafa'a, sincerely speaking, how will you now logically explain this verse: And because of their saying "but they killed him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely they killed him not" "But, Allah raised him up unto Himself. And Allah is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise" Qur'an 4:158 - 159 The question is: How will being "raised spiritually" save one from physical danger? 8. Produce a verse of the quran that support your idea a) I have given you the lexical and actual meaning of the word. b) I have quoted an ayah that showed that the Qur'an has used the same word in a different manner Quran 6:60. c) I have quoted an Islamic Scholar's understanding of the word. d) Can you prove that in toto wherever the word "waffa/ tawaffa" occurs in the Quran, then it must inexorably be translated as "death"? e) Does that one exception I quoted (6:60) not suffice you to make you consider that the "tawaffa" in 5:117 might not n e c e s s a r i l y mean death? f) What exactly do you want me to do? 9. You've not answered the Hadiths I quoted to my satisfaction. Which are those o t h e r t r a d i t i o n s you are referring to? The hadith explicitly used the word (yanzala) which means to descend. So is he spiritually descending or what? Where is Isa descending from? Wassalam. |
| Re: Death Of Jesus,evidence From The Quran. by olabowale(m): 3:30am On Nov 29, 2009 |
@Niyi53: « #25 on: Yesterday at 10:01:21 PM » I am not rejecting the hadith. If you read bukhari very well, you will come across where the holy prophet (saw) gave the description of the jesus of the israelites and the description of the coming jesus. Though it was a vision. That of the first jesus was described under the tradition which discusses about the miraj, while that of the later jesus was described under the traditions which discusses about dajjal.May Allah give knowledge toall who wishes to have it. May the knowledge be beneficial. May we all receive Allah's Mercy. Amin. Niyi, there is no 2 Jesus and when the prophet (as) described Jesus in either place as you indicated above, each description is partial description and you will find complete description when you merge the two together. Neither disagrees with the other, but compliments it. There is only a bani Israil Isa bin Maryam, the one who lived and lifted to heaven, presently in second heaven, met Muhammad in the company of Jibril and prayed behind Muhammad (AS) and who will return to earth to pray Magrib behind the Mahdi, and fight Dajjal (lana) and part of the signs of the end of time. Hadith, Bukhari or others must agree with the Quran. Please know that Muhammad saw the physical Isa bin Maryam, and not just by vision. One of the things we must never forget is that Allah revealed the things that He wished Adam (AS) to know as an indication of 'knowing all' while the Angels only know what Allah wished them to know! So it was the greater knowledge that Allah impacted on Adam, while depriving the Angels of such a vase knowledge, while the Angels could not name things, Adam was! Can we then say that Allah's given knowledge to Muhammad about Jesus is not complete, or the authentic hadith will disagree with the Quran? It is not possible to have two Jesus, because one will become like the Christians who talks about two Adams, and two covenants, and two testaments! |
| Re: Death Of Jesus,evidence From The Quran. by Abuzola11(m): 6:57am On Nov 29, 2009 |
@niyi- do you know that i ve not started with u yet, my Quran and hadith is reserved |
| Re: Death Of Jesus,evidence From The Quran. by Niyi53(m): 7:37am On Nov 29, 2009 |
Abuzola 1:when there is whirlwind, the breez would not be noticed. Still reserve it. Hope it is not yourself made hadith? |
| Re: Death Of Jesus,evidence From The Quran. by Niyi53(m): 8:45am On Nov 29, 2009 |
For rafa'a in sura nur, vs 36,in relation to mosques. TAWAFFA i mean , if God is the subject, would automatically mean death. You say according to the quran that Allah is settled throne. Where is the throne? In sura hud, it is written that the throne is on water. So is the water in heaven?(smiling), who told you that adam and eve were both in heaven. ALLAH says in 2:30, that He is about to place a vicegerant on earth not in heaven,was it only the two of them that was in it? GOD when sending then out said 'ihbituu', it is used in the plural form. YANZILU is from NAZALA. It means to descend. Does it also mean a physical descent. The holy quran describe the holy prophet has descending. Iron is also described as descending and so on. |
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