@pastorAIO
nice submission

KunleOshob:

As usual pilgrim.1 you try to confuse issues,

You know, I used to get put off when Nairalanders confused me for pilgrim.1, but these days I just allow the joke to flow. Others have also confused me for Krayola, or someone else; and I'm just wondering about the verse you might be familiar with: 'who do men say that I am?' So no big matter there.

i am sure i was clear enough in my submissions so stop trying to create loopholes were there are none.

No, Kunle, you were not clear at all but just spinning yarns and lazily running from the question people are asking. If you make Jesus 'a God' distinct from God, that is preaching more than one God in your theology - and the Muslims would be absolutely correct in damning your version of Christianity as idolatry. There's no need to pretend you're smarter than you sound on this subject if you can't be man enough to face up to the simple questions we've been asking.

Just imagine how this spinning shows up in your posts:

KunleOshob:

I am not ignoring your post it is just that it lacks substance, the fact that Jesus called himself the Alpha and Omega does not make him God neither does it make him equal to God.

. . and then you, KunleOshob, tried to make Him what you supposed He was not:

KunleOshob:

For the purpose of clarity i would restate my positon. Jesus being the son of God is also a God, however God almighty who is his father is greater than him and he is also answerable to God.

Pastor AIO:

In short, I think that the word God is one of those words that people just bandy about without any real grasp of what they are talking about when they say God.

Very true.

What is a God? What makes a being a God? Please I need some definitions.

Good questions for those speaking about 'a God'.

@Viaro
I think pastor's comment i more applicable to your shallow understanding of the God/god concept.

KunleOshob:

@Viaro
I think pastor's comment i more applicable to your shallow understanding of the God/god concept.

Thank you. At least, there are questions he left to be addressed by those speaking about 'a God' as distinct from 'God'. Dig?

KunleOshob:

I am not ignoring your post it is just that it lacks substance, the fact that Jesus called himself the Alpha and Omega does not make him God neither does it make him equal to God. you have to understand the context within which Jesus was making that statement. The earth is Jesus' inheritance from God so as far as the earth is concerned he is but in the kingdom of God he is his right hand man. You guys get easily confused about the true personallity of Jesus and a such describe him as God almighty were as the bible describes him as the one who radiate's God's glory and has God's character. The bible NEVER for once called him God almighty.

Hebrews 1:3:
3 The Son radiates God’s own glory and expresses the very character of God, and he sustains everything by the mighty power of his command. When he had cleansed us from our sins, he sat down in the place of honor at the right hand of the majestic God in heaven.

U conveniently dismiss all other verses that define Him as alpha and Omega. . . just to suit ur inexplicable dogma.
in what context was Jesus making the "Alpha and Omega" pronouncement?
Do u know that heaven and earth will pass away? so how can the earth be His inheritance? I still need u to explain how any being can be greater than the Alpha and Omega . . . .

KunleOshob:

@Viaro
I think pastor's comment i more applicable to your shallow understanding of the God/god concept.

u should be more concerned about ur own shallow understanding and dogma, . . First in the case of biblical love and now in the ontology of Jesus. . . . . . .

Hehe. . I like this part of your reply:

noetic15:

I still need u to explain how any being can be greater than the Alpha and Omega . . . .

I don't think it was a matter of 'greater than' - unless I missed where anyone was arguing so. Rather, I would like to know how any being could claim to be the Alpha and Omega when he is not so, especially as in the case of Jesus in Revelation.

Alpha and Omega on earth and NOT in heaven. Jesus sits at the right hand of God in heaven remember I really don't understand why "christians" keep trying make scriptures say Jesus is God when Jesus himself in several scriptures made it clear that "the father who sent him is greater than he is"

KunleOshob:

Alpha and Omega on earth and NOT in heaven. Jesus sits at the right hand of God in heaven remember I really don't understand why "christians" keep trying make scriptures say Jesus is God when Jesus himself in several scriptures made it clear that "the father who sent him is greater than he is"

1. Colosians 1:15 states that Jesus was God manifest in flesh. Mathew 9:18, 14:33, 15:25, 28:9 and 28: 17 show Jesus accepting worship . . , . . which is so simply cos He is God.
To limit the manifestation of God is to limit the ability of God. Jesus was both God in heaven and manifest on earth.

2. I cant find it written anywhere in the bible that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega of the earth and not heaven
Are by ur post submitting that while Jesus preceded the earth, He did not precede the heavens?

@Noetic
I don't think i am interested in pursuing this argument, it has been debated too often on NL and i don't think there is anymore to add. We both know that the bible makes it crystal clear that Jesus is the SON of God and NOT the GOD almighty. I am quite certain if it were otherwise, it would have been clearly stated and not left for zealots to be reading btw the lines and forcing their own hallucinations into it.

An interesting passage portraying the difficulties of an Ill Defined God.

Socrates Meets Jesus
Acobe Acrobat version
by Prometheus
Socrates
Good morning, Jesus, I have heard much of your marvelous teachings. In my own modest way I am a philosopher here in Athens. I am told you have great wisdom and certainly that is indicated by the throng of admirers that follow you through the streets. If you have a few moments to spare, I would appreciate it if you would enlighten me with the answers to some of the puzzling problems I have been wrestling with all my life


Jesus
I am as a fisher of men in my search for followers. I bring the truth of God to all men. Seek and you shall find, ask and it shall be answered knock and it shall be open unto to thee.


Socrates
There is one basic question that has always been uppermost in my mind. Although it has always been an insurmountable obstacle to me in my search for the truth and meaning, I am sure that with your learning you will find it far to easy and think me a foolish old man. I have always longed to live honorably and nobly, but it seems that I have merely stumbled through life without even even knowing what was honorable or noble. With my limited understanding, it often seems to me that life, even with all its sound and fury, really signifies nothing. Please tell me: How should a man live; what is the purpose of life.


Jesus
To serve and worship God.


Socrates
Which God.


Jesus
There is only one god.


Socrates
Oh. You should live here in Athens. We have several to choose from.


Jesus
There is only one true God.


Socrates
Of course. And which one is the true God?


Jesus
The true god is Lord God.


Socrates
Yes. But who is Lord God? Or what is he?


Jesus
He is the infinity of wisdom, love, compassion, peace, and mercy. He is the creator of heaven and earth all things in the universe.


Socrates
Of all things?


Jesus
Yes-all things. He is omnipotent. He is master and controller and maker of all things. He is omnipresent-nothing can happen that he does not know beforehand.


Socrates
Did he create plagues, wars, death, suffering and evil.


Jesus
No. These things and all other evils and tragedies come from the Devil, the prince of darkness; or from man's weakness and evil nature. God is all goodness and free of evil; only good can come from God


Socrates
And who for gracious sakes is the devil? Surely he must be a god to be able to visit such powerful calamities on mankind: Yet you have just said there is only one God. Also you have said that all that exists comes from God: And now you say that only good comes from God and all evil comes from someone called the devil. These would seem to be contradictions. I am afraid that your religion is far too complex for this old head to fathom. Yet I will be an eager student and try hard to understand, if you will but help me. Please explain: who is the devil and how can all things come from God and yet not come from God?


Jesus:
The Devil is a fallen angel who is ambitious. He rebelled against God and wants to overthrow all his works.


Socrates:
What in Zeus' name is an angel?


Jesus:
An angel is an angel.


Socrates:
Of course, that's an identity. Socrates is Socrates. But, you see, it doesn't mean anything to me, inexperienced as I am in your religion. Although it's true as true can be, it doesn't relate to anything I can understand. Compare it to something I am familiar with.

It continues:
http://www.jameshartforcongress.com/prometheus/socvsjes.htm

viaro:


Good questions for those speaking about 'a God'.

It is the word 'god' that needs defining. Then we can move on to whether we are talking about 'a god', 'the god', or just plain simple 'God', or even 'God almighty'.

Pastor AIO:

It is the word 'god' that needs defining. Then we can move on to whether we are talking about 'a god', 'the god', or just plain simple 'God', or even 'God almighty'.

I heed, and that is what KunleOshob should betake himself to sorting out, hehe. Afterall, we first heard this 'a God' tutorial from his super-highness!

Anyways, thanks for that link:

Pastor AIO:

http://www.jameshartforcongress.com/prometheus/socvsjes.htm

KunleOshob:

@Noetic
I don't think i am interested in pursuing this argument, it has been debated too often on NL and i don't think there is anymore to add.

That's true, and a very wise choice. Truth be told, I don't even think I have half the intelligence to pursue that argument and I'm quite content to contain it as one of the mysteries of our Faith.

But this one got my sides bursting with a good laugh:

KunleOshob:

Alpha and Omega on earth and NOT in heaven. Jesus sits at the right hand of God in heaven remember

Hawhahaha!! You, Kunle, will not kill us with laughter! Where was Jesus when He called Himself the Alpha and Omega?

viaro:

I would like to know how any being could claim to be the Alpha and Omega when he is not so

Lol. Easy. Olumba Olumba Obu, Guru Maharaji, and many other quacks have claimed to be God, the alpha and omega. Are they God?

So Viaro, for you and Noetic, a mere assertion by that first century nomadic carpenter amounts to proof that he is the primordial and divine first cause and creator of all existence?

I'm sorry, but i have no words to describe how pedestrian that is. Psycotic, actually.

My view is that many simple minded people have a correct perception of God even though they cannot define it or describe it in a way that seems reasonable to others with sophisticated intellect. It is the man with a sophisticated intellect that has problems with understanding the ways of God or even believing in God. When people think too much as scholars do, they create a maze of thoughts that are so loud that they suffocate the calm quiet voice of the spirit.  The spirit alone has the ability to understand the will of God. When this voice of the spirit is unrecognised due to the noise generated by intellectual pondering, then the path to percieving God or and his will is blocked.

To describe God in a way that seems closer to the perception of the human brain is really difficult. Inspite of this limitation, one can say that God is  Eternity to which everything is absolutely dependent on but God is absolutely independent of everything else, thus existence no matter in what form or formlessness is simply a manifestation of God or more correctly a manifestation of the power of God. Thus there is no existence without God but their is God without existence. In otherwords, existence was created by the power of God and is absolutely dependent on the power of God but God is eternal and absolutely independent of anything else. Thus only God is Life, everthing else directly or indirectly derive its existence from LIFE that is God.

m_nwankwo:

My view is that many simple minded people have a correct perception of God even though they cannot define it or describe it in a way that seems reasonable to others with sophisticated intellect. It is the man with a sophisticated intellect that has problems with understanding the ways of God or even believing in God. When people think too much as scholars do, they create a maze of thoughts that is so loud that it suffocates the calm quiet voice of the spirit.  The spirit alone has the ability to understand the will of God. When this voice of the spirit is unrecognised due to the noise generated by intellectual pondering, then the path to percieving God or and his will is blocked.

To describe God in a way that seems closer to the perception of the human brain is really difficult. Inspite of this limitation, one can say that God is  Eternity to which everything is absolutely dependent on but God is absolutely independent of everything else, thus existence no matter is what form or formlessness is simply a manifestation of God or more correctly a manifestation of the power of God. Thus there is no existence without God but their is God without existence.   

Do you think that any 2, or more, people can have the same exact understand of God. Either with their brain or "spirit" or whateva. Is God (or God's will) experienced or understood in a uniform way by those who sincerely seek him, as u say (I think), or are they all, ultimately, subjective conceptions.

viaro:


Hawhahaha!! You, Kunle, will not kill us with laughter! Where was Jesus when He called Himself the Alpha and Omega?

And who was he addressing when he declared to be the Alpha and Omega? People on earth or those in heaven/ other parts of the universe.

Isn't that from the book of Revelation?

Krayola:

Do you think that any 2, or more, people can have the same exact understand of God. Either with their brain or "spirit" or whateva. Is God experienced or understood in a uniform way by those who sincerely seek him, as u say, or are they all, ultimately, subjective conceptions.

Hi Krayola. Yes I think that two or more people can have similar understanding of God. I used similar as it captures the picture better than using identical understanding. Differences arise not because the will of God changes but the spiritual maturity of the seekers are different. Individuals on the same level spirtually will percieve the will of God in a very similar way. Thus for example if 10 people are at  a similar level of spiritual maturity and each is independently shown  a vision of heaven. Then, when anyone of them describes what was shown to him, the nine others will recognise it as what was also shown to them too. Thus, differences are simply a reflection of the varied maturity of men. When people change inwardly, their perception also changes. Just like on earth, if 10 people have heard and recognised the track "Thriller" by MJ and then Thriller is played independently for each of them, each will again recognise it as Thriller by MJ although the effect on them may vary. It may make some to remember with nolstagia their teenage years, others it will envoke different emotions but whatever the emotion, they know it is Thriller by MJ. If however 10 people claim to recognise Thriller by MJ and yet 9 out of the 10 say that it is pokker face by Lady Gaga, Umbrella by Rhina or even symphony no 9 by Bethoven, then it is clear that the nine have not recognised Thriller by MJ. Best wishes.

Deep Sight:

Lol. Easy. Olumba Olumba Obu, Guru Maharaji, and many other quacks have claimed to be God, the alpha and omega. Are they God?

So Viaro, for you and Noetic, a mere assertion by that first century nomadic carpenter amounts to proof that he is the primordial and divine first cause and creator of all existence?

I'm sorry, but i have no words to describe how pedestrian that is. Psycotic, actually.

I do not fall into the bracket of ur analyses.

Kunle claims that there is a God almighty to whom Jesus is subject to, . .my question was/is: how can any other being exist outside the Alpha and Omega?

KunleOshob:

@Noetic
I don't think i am interested in pursuing this argument, it has been debated too often on NL and i don't think there is anymore to add. We both know that the bible makes it crystal clear that Jesus is the SON of God and NOT the GOD almighty. I am quite certain if it were otherwise, it would have been clearly stated and not left for zealots to be reading btw the lines and forcing their own hallucinations into it.

As usual, u make assertions and refuse to butress them.

m_nwankwo:

My view is that many simple minded people have a correct perception of God even though they cannot define it or describe it in a way that seems reasonable to others with sophisticated intellect. It is the man with a sophisticated intellect that has problems with understanding the ways of God or even believing in God. When people think too much as scholars do, they create a maze of thoughts that are so loud that they suffocate the calm quiet voice of the spirit.  The spirit alone has the ability to understand the will of God. When this voice of the spirit is unrecognised due to the noise generated by intellectual pondering, then the path to percieving God or and his will is blocked.

To describe God in a way that seems closer to the perception of the human brain is really difficult. Inspite of this limitation, one can say that God is  Eternity to which everything is absolutely dependent on but God is absolutely independent of everything else, thus existence no matter in what form or formlessness is simply a manifestation of God or more correctly a manifestation of the power of God. Thus there is no existence without God but their is God without existence. In otherwords, existence was created by the power of God and is absolutely dependent on the power of God but God is eternal and absolutely independent of anything else. Thus only God is Life, everthing else directly or indirectly derive its existence from LIFE that is God.

Goodness gracious Nwankwo, is there any observable limit to your wisdom?  The above is just beautiful to read.

  @Topic,
it is a tie between the subject of 'Tithes' and 'Evolution vs Creation/God vs no God'

Deep Sight:

Lol. Easy. Olumba Olumba Obu, Guru Maharaji, and many other quacks have claimed to be God, the alpha and omega. Are they God?

I don't know if they have so claimed to be Alpha and Omega. That there are many people who have claimed to be 'God', I am not ignorant of - and such things do not take me by surprise, in as much as the Bible makes clear that many would even claim to be Jesus Christ: does that make them Jesus Christ as well?

So Viaro, for you and Noetic, a mere assertion by that first century nomadic carpenter amounts to proof that he is the primordial and divine first cause and creator of all existence?

I think you let your hatred for Jesus Christ quite simply shows up many times and you can't contain or resist the urge to show it. For me, it was not a mere assertion that Jesus made, if one looks carefully at the references to His being the Alpha and Omega. That is found in the Revelation and no other bookof the NT. For which I had asked: how any being could claim to be the Alpha and Omega. It is not so much that viaro has no clue that any one has claimed to be 'God'; and it helps to read what people are saying and not what they are not saying.

I'm sorry, but i have no words to describe how pedestrian that is. Psycotic, actually.

This is where I sometimes wonder about you and quite agree with reviewers who have concluded that you're dogmatic. If anything does not square with your deism, it is psychotic, inane, etc. No worries. . a time will come for you to dress your deism in a hotwater bottle.

viaro:


I think you let your hatred for Jesus Christ quite simply shows up many times and you can't contain or resist the urge to show it.

Please o! Please please please please please let me be clear on this:

I DO NOT HATE JESUS OF NAZARETH. I LOVE HIM AND I REGARD HIM AS ONE OF THE GREATEST MEN TO HAVE EVER LIVED, IF NOT THE GREATEST.

I simply believe that mankind is given to hero worship and the deification of leaders. It abounds throughout history that leaders, especially spiritual leaders, are presumed to be deities, and the critical eye can very easily see that this is what happened to poor Jesus of Nazareth as well. People turned him into God.

I think the Council of Nicea which was set up to address the Arian heresy entrenched it as church dogma.

The reason people will always get such fury and bitterness from me on the question of Jesus is the fact that i passionately hate attempts to deify human beings, or denigrate the greatness of God by equating any human being with him. I think its the greatest heresy, and i am happy to park my boat with the muslims on that score. There are also other misconceptions regarding Jesus that i believe are fatal to the true christianity that he preached. One such is the idea of remission of sins through the death on the cross.

Deep Sight:

There are also other misconceptions regarding Jesus that i believe are fatal to the true christianity that he preached.

Jesus did not preach "Christianity". He was a Jew, surrounded by Jews, preaching to Jews about Jewish religious law, and offering a liberal interpretation of Torah that was livable for disenfranchised peasant Jews and other outcasts. To understand Jesus' teachings in the context he preached them, u have to, IMO, understand 1st century life in Palestine/Israel , and the way Judaism was understood in that time. Just my opinion.

@ Kunle

how many Gods are there in heaven?

JeSoul:

Goodness gracious Nwankwo, is there any observable limit to your wisdom?  The above is just beautiful to read.

Hi JeSoul. Thanks for your kind words. Honestly I do not consider myself as a wise man. I see myself as one who is ignorant but have absolute trust in God. Stay blessed.

@Noetic
Can you define the term God/god?

KunleOshob:

@Noetic
Can you define the term God/god?

God: one who exhibits all authority (known and unknown), to whom ALL is subject, creator of all creations, all knowing and super-intelligent.
god: a local deity

Gracious! We now know which is the most controversial topic!

I am personally serving you the subpoena viaro you have to appear in court asap!