tintingz:


From the hadith I presented in this thread, It shows Muslims were having various copies of Quran that differs during Uthman era.



The Quran can be compiled during Muhammad (SA)'s era, even while on sick bed he ordered for pen and book but Abu bakr stopped prophet Muhammad from writing any document. This alone shows the Quran can be compiled during his time no excuse. It can be written down on a book as He was recieving the revelations not after his death.

And to the division among muslims, Quran is part of it, can Quran interpret itself? Are humans not the ones interpreting the Quran to support thier whims and desire.? The Ahmadiyyas said "Ahmad" in the Quran was referring to their master Ahmad Ghulam, Shia said some verses in the Quran was referring to Ali and many other interpretations. You can see Quran is not left out.

tintingz:


From the hadith I presented in this thread, It shows Muslims were having various copies of Quran that differs during Uthman era.



The Quran can be compiled during Muhammad (SA)'s era, even while on sick bed he ordered for pen and book but Abu bakr stopped prophet Muhammad from writing any document. This alone shows the Quran can be compiled during his time no excuse. It can be written down on a book as He was recieving the revelations not after his death.

And to the division among muslims, Quran is part of it, can Quran interpret itself? Are humans not the ones interpreting the Quran to support thier whims and desire.? The Ahmadiyyas said "Ahmad" in the Quran was referring to their master Ahmad Ghulam, Shia said some verses in the Quran was referring to Ali and many other interpretations. You can see Quran is not left out.

AlBaqir:


# It was Umar Ibn al-Khattab that prevented Nabi and not Abu Bakr. The later was not even at the scene.

# The word of prophet at his sick bed was, " Bring me pen and paper so I can write a Document for you which if follow, you will NEVER go astray". And Umar said, "The prophet has been possessed by the illness he is suffering from; we have the Quran with us and it is sufficient".

* In another narrations, some condemned Sahabah present there said, "He (the prophet) is mentally derailed".

# Shia are of the firm opinion that Quran was compiled at the time of Nabi.

* The fact that it was revealed in stages for 23 years and after every revelation, there are scribes who write it down under the guidanceship of Nabi himself.

* There are ahadith which say Jubril came to review Quran twice at the last year of the Prophet on earth.

If you sum the two point above, definitely Quran must have been written and arranged in a particular order and style.

* Between the last revealed verse and the death of Nabi, there was at least 6 months gap. His sickness was just couple of days (4 days) till he breathed his last. If Quran is the utmost message he brought, why will he left it unarranged, in pieces, one parch with Mr A, another with Mr B till he died? What exactly will be the completeness of his work?

* Part of Nabi's last speech in Arafat says thus, " O mankind! I have left over you two weighty things that so long you adhere to it (both), you will never go. astray; the BOOK of Allah and my progeny, my Ahl al-bayt. The two will never separate from each other till they meet me at the hawd (on the day of judgment)".

The above hadith is widely reported in various versions.

# If Quran is not yet compiled and arranged, why would the prophet refer to it as "Book" when he can easily used other fitting phrase denoting unarranged book?

# Besides, at his deathbed, Umar himself equally refer to "Book of God". And we expect the prophet especially at his sickbed to give direct order for the compilation and arrangement of the Quran had it been that it has not been arranged and compiled.

# Sunni stories on the compilation and arrangement of the Quran if it is true cast a huge doubt on the intention and action on those who said to have rearrange and recompiled Qur'an.

* Abu Bakr and Umar had said to have compiled Quran and used for around 16 years of their combined reign. Perhaps they still preserve the 7 styles of Quran revelation and reading just as Nabi left it (altogether).

* Uthman came to the helm, review the work of his predecessors and was not satisfied obviously, dismantled their work, destroyed all the styles of the Quran except that of the " Qurayshi style".

Alas according to Sunni authentic hadith! Even after this, a Qurayshi (Abdullah ibn Abbas) who no doubt was more knowledgeable than Uthman cast doubt on a verse of the Quran saying that was not the way it was revealed.

There is a huge problem in those so-called stories of compilation. And I personally believe that those stories were fabricated to give huge credit to the first three caliphs (as you can read part of what s.ino posted). Unfortunately the fabricators were not smart enough to close all doors of suspicion.

tintingz:
The Al-furqan.

The burnt six Quran style.

Chaiiiii!!!!! You slow gan no be small!

Empiree:


And you said Bible didnt call him God?. Maybe you have been reading very well. Those who believe Jesus is God gave their references


Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.


Revelation 1:17-18; Revelation 2:8 - (Jesus is the First and the Last)


1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh,

Empiree:
Obviously you are confused. Dont let trinitarians here @bold. That's no longer interpreatation. That's believe system if some one believes a man is God and nother one says no he is not. That's complete different doctrines.

And you said Bible didnt call him God?. Maybe you have been reading very well. Those who believe Jesus is God gave their references


Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Revelation 1:17-18; Revelation 2:8 - (Jesus is the First and the Last)


1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh,


These are few of the references of those who believe in man is God.

And you open the same book, you see unitarian who believe otherwise.

Does this happen with islam that nabi God?. Stop deceiving yourself my friend

Empiree:
Now, this is becoming blind argument without any proof. "All I know is". That's not scholarship at all.

@uunderlined does not relate with @bold.

Empiree:
Now this is going to be a knockout.

Let's see if you can refute this.

From what you have said earlier, that why Abu Bakr rejected Ali's "version" of Quran, let's assume Abu Bakr did reject it. If he rejected Ali's, do you have any evidence that he seized Ali's version and banned it?.

If not, the implication is that Ali MUST have his copy in his possession until he gained power after Uthman. So why didn't Ali get rid f Uthman and replace it with his version if it was different from what was revealed to nabi(SA) and standardized by Uthman?.

AlBaqir:


# It was Umar Ibn al-Khattab that prevented Nabi and not Abu Bakr. The later was not even at the scene.

# The word of prophet at his sick bed was, " Bring me pen and paper so I can write a Document for you which if follow, you will NEVER go astray". And Umar said, "The prophet has been possessed by the illness he is suffering from; we have the Quran with us and it is sufficient".

* In another narrations, some condemned Sahabah present there said, "He (the prophet) is mentally derailed".

# Shia are of the firm opinion that Quran was compiled at the time of Nabi.

* The fact that it was revealed in stages for 23 years and after every revelation, there are scribes who write it down under the guidanceship of Nabi himself.

* There are ahadith which say Jubril came to review Quran twice at the last year of the Prophet on earth.

If you sum the two point above, definitely Quran must have been written and arranged in a particular order and style.

* Between the last revealed verse and the death of Nabi, there was at least 6 months gap. His sickness was just couple of days (4 days) till he breathed his last. If Quran is the utmost message he brought, why will he left it unarranged, in pieces, one parch with Mr A, another with Mr B till he died? What exactly will be the completeness of his work?

* Part of Nabi's last speech in Arafat says thus, " O mankind! I have left over you two weighty things that so long you adhere to it (both), you will never go. astray; the BOOK of Allah and my progeny, my Ahl al-bayt. The two will never separate from each other till they meet me at the hawd (on the day of judgment)".

The above hadith is widely reported in various versions.

# If Quran is not yet compiled and arranged, why would the prophet refer to it as "Book" when he can easily used other fitting phrase denoting unarranged book?

# Besides, at his deathbed, Umar himself equally refer to "Book of God". And we expect the prophet especially at his sickbed to give direct order for the compilation and arrangement of the Quran had it been that it has not been arranged and compiled.

# Sunni stories on the compilation and arrangement of the Quran if it is true cast a huge doubt on the intention and action on those who said to have rearrange and recompiled Qur'an.

* Abu Bakr and Umar had said to have compiled Quran and used for around 16 years of their combined reign. Perhaps they still preserve the 7 styles of Quran revelation and reading just as Nabi left it (altogether).

* Uthman came to the helm, review the work of his predecessors and was not satisfied obviously, dismantled their work, destroyed all the styles of the Quran except that of the " Qurayshi style".

Alas according to Sunni authentic hadith! Even after this, a Qurayshi (Abdullah ibn Abbas) who no doubt was more knowledgeable than Uthman cast doubt on a verse of the Quran saying that was not the way it was revealed.

There is a huge problem in those so-called stories of compilation. And I personally believe that those stories were fabricated to give huge credit to the first three caliphs (as you can read part of what s.ino posted). Unfortunately the fabricators were not smart enough to close all doors of suspicion.

Empiree:
I read on Shia's view on compilation before and it is noteworthy. But here, tintingz is question authenticity of Quran itself by saying it has version(s). By versions, he meant CONTENTS of the present Quran is different from revelation. No Muslim sects would agree with this. I dont have problems with Shia's view on this. It is just normal for sunnis to defend what they are taught and I learned "compilation of Quran" from high school. Still tintingz can't really find holes because there is no record that sayyidina Ali(ra) kept different quran. If he did, he would have restored that when he became caliph. That was my question to him in my last post and I am waiting for his answer for that.

Now, my question to tintingz is, taken shia's view into consideration, do you believe Quran has version still?. That's, this current Quran is different from what was revealed to nabi(SAW)?

AlBaqir:
^^^
@ Empiree, tintingz is absolutely not the first person that will have doubt about the Quran. Amongst the Sahabah, Tabi'in, tabi Tabi'in, scholars of both major schools etc were (are) not left out.

# Have you ever ask why? Obviously for an objective mind its as a result of various stories called authentic that surround compilations of the Quran.

# Though some of you usually sweep this under the carpet, the point remain that the Sahabah made terrible mistake in preventing the Prophet of writing that document. Abdullah Ibn Abbas himself said that was the day the misfortune of the Muslims started.

# Just like the video of sheik Hamza you sent to me. Part of what I highlighted for you in his speech is that many things (especially Islamic histories, fiqh books, so-called 100% Sahih hadiths) need to be review.

# To those who cast doubt about the authenticity of the Quran, Allah's challenge still stand:

* Scrutinize it and bring error out of it

* Produce the like of it, even a surah, even 10 verses

tintingz:
Yes.

The burnt 7 style Quran and Al Furqan.

Version is version, you claim bible has versions then you have to accept Quran has versions.

Give a non-arab an arabic verse of Al-furqan like the yorubas, he-she will think it is Uthmantic Quran.

AlBaqir:


# Quran has many names as stated in the Quran. One of its mentioned name is al-Furqan - the criterion. So, its not like there was a version called "al-Furqan".

tintingz:
The name given to a mirror like Quran was Al-furqan(The true Furqan).

Empiree said the Quran cannot be rewrite, that there is gay bible and I presented him a like of Quran.

tintingz:
Yes.

The burnt 7 style Quran and Al Furqan.

Version is version, you claim bible has versions then you have to accept Quran has versions.

Give a non-arab an arabic verse of Al-furqan like the yorubas, he-she will think it is Uthmantic Quran.

tintingz:
After Uthman has distributed the copies of Quran to lands? Years and years after Ali became caliph?

Then why are Shia and Sunni not in unity?

Empiree:
I keeo telling you that translation(tafsir) and interpretation(tawil) are not versions of Quran. Quran is in Arabic. So Yusuf Ali, Musin Khan, Pickthall etc are translations of the meaning. For example

Yusuf Ali

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful


MUhammad Pickthall

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.


Sahih International

In the name of Allah, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful

These translations are CHOICES used by translators. They are not versions of Quran



But original arabic Quran reads Bismillah Rahman Rahim


That arabic ^ is the same in ALL Quran worldwide. So bring me evidence otherwise if any. As for interpretation, Quran itself speaks about methodology in sura Imran. It says some verses are PLAIN and CLEAR which many of us can understand. The other verses are tobe interpreted by well grounded and firm believers. They are called "MUTASHABIAT" i:e not entirely clear. These verse need tawil (interpretation). Doesnt mean it a version of Quran.



For instance in sura 41:30, Indeed, those who have said, "Our Lord is Allah " and then remained on a right course - the angels will descend upon them, [saying], "Do not fear and do not grieve but receive good tidings of Paradise, which you were promised.


You see where it says "saying" in parenthesis?, some people understand the verse and place in bracket "at the time of death". Some say both at the time of death and in haqiqa. These are interpretations. They are not versions.

So in order to substantiate your point, you will have to bring evidence that there other versions of Arabic Quran. You can't provide "evidence" in the absence of evidence itself. Thats not acceptable. As for why Sayyidina Uthman burnt other dialects if nabi(SA) did nt have problem with it, thisis simply part of wisdom Allah bestowed on him. It is part of protecting Quran which Allah promised in sura Hijr 9. Those different dialects exist today as I pointed out to you earlier.

Empiree:
This is irrelevant. Do you have evidence that Abu Bakr confiscated Ali's compilation?. If he didnt, then Ali MUST have it in his possession. Regardless of how long it took him to become Caliph, he had the power to restore his

AlBaqir:


I never knew those fake Quran are the ones you are talking about. Those are jokes. They doesn't add up at all.

Even the extremist that accused Shia of having another Quran has failed to produce it save speculations.

Alhamdulillah all Muslims with whatever differences between us still have a common Quran in its book-like form and recitations. Both Sunni and Shia rejected some of their own scholars that cast doubt about the authenticity of the Quran.

# Bible case is different:

* The Torah and Injeel mentioned by the Quran are not the same as these Old and New testament.

* Torah was revelation directly from God to Musa. Injeel was also the same. These are distinctly different from the Bible we have today.

* Even looking at the present Bible, it has been messed up big time. I had opportunity of scrutinizing Catholic Bible VS Protestants Bible VS Jehovah Witness Bible. There are clear differences between them. Am talking of the use of English.

Empiree:
"Al Furqan" is OBVIOUSLY Bible in disguise

tintingz:
But has flows like the Quran.

I've the PDF copy, you can download it or send it to your mail.

tintingz:
But has flows like the Quran.

I've the PDF copy, you can download it or send it to your mail.

AlBaqir:


# Flows like the Quran?

Brother, how do you study Quran to say it has "flows like the Quran?" My best bet is you have read over and over the English translation of the Quran. Is that it?

Professor Maurice Buccaile, the author of "The Bible, the Quran and Science", for him to understand and feel the deep meaning of the Quran, went to Saudi Arabia to study Arabic language. Even that is not enough. You need to study the " language and the style of the Quran".

That was what the Prof did before embarking on his priced Book named above. That is a true quest towards learning and researching. Countless number of world intellectuals in various field have also study this glorious Book and confirm non-equal of it.

# Quran is masterpiece beyond what anybody or group of "intellectuals" can just sit down and conjure up.

# Try to be open-minded my brother, and study Quran in its proper language, style and flow. Only then, you can compare with whatever you claim is "like it".

Can Quran be rewritten?

First, I need to clarify one point: The said Ali's version or compilation is nothing but Tafsir of the Quran. There are some reports that Ali's compilations was in accordance with the revelation of each surah and each verse. For example, surah Iqra which was the first chapter that now enjoyed chapter 96 today was the first in Ali's. All these are speculation with no concrete evidence to support it. That is the reason many Shia Ulama believed that the present Quran remained as it was at the time of Nabi in its arrangement. And there is an authentic hadith believed by both Sunni and Shia that Nabi said, " Ali will fight for the interpretation (Ta'weel) of the Quran just like I fought for its revelation (Tanzil)". Had Quran is going to be tampered with in anyway ni, Nabi would have revealed that instead of what he said because preservation of Quran the way it was revealed is far important than its interpretation.

Second, Quran was never rewritten at anytime. This should give you clue that I am of the opinion (as well as bulk majority of Shia) that every nonsense history in Sunni or Shi'i books about Quran that bring doubt to it is nothing but fables, tales, and fabrication. Though, It remain problem for those who believe in the authenticity of those ahadith or story.

Third, when was books of ahadith compiled? Centuries after the demise of the Prophet. So, how do you want to see accurate historical facts about Quran?

Quran by virtue of the fact that it was, till now being studied verbally and learn by heart with great caution from the time of the Prophet till now made it self-preserved book. Even extremist, Munafiq et al who knows it by heart will read Quran the same way every learned Quran students will. That's one unique way it was preserved.

And there is nowhere in history that Muslims had ever fought each other over versions of the Quran.
......
tintingz. edited.

AlBaqir:


# It was Umar Ibn al-Khattab that prevented Nabi and not Abu Bakr. The later was not even at the scene.

# The word of prophet at his sick bed was, " Bring me pen and paper so I can write a Document for you which if follow, you will NEVER go astray". And Umar said, "The prophet has been possessed by the illness he is suffering from; we have the Book of God with us and it is sufficient".

* In another narrations, some condemned Sahabah present there said, "He (the prophet) is mentally derailed".

AlBaqir:

# Shia are of the firm opinion that Quran was compiled at the time of Nabi.

AlBaqir:

* The fact that it was revealed in stages for 23 years and after every revelation, there are scribes who write it down under the guidanceship of Nabi himself.

* There are ahadith which say Jubril came to review Quran twice at the last year of the Prophet on earth.

If you sum the two point above, definitely Quran must have been written and arranged in a particular order and style.

AlBaqir:

* Between the last revealed verse and the death of Nabi, there was at least 6 months gap. His sickness was just couple of days (4 days) till he breathed his last. If Quran is the utmost message he brought, why will he left it unarranged, in pieces, one parch with Mr A, another with Mr B till he died? What exactly will be the completeness of his work?

AlBaqir:

* Part of Nabi's last speech in Arafat says thus, " O mankind! I have left over you two weighty things that so long you adhere to it (both), you will never go. astray; the BOOK of Allah and my progeny, my Ahl al-bayt. The two will never separate from each other till they meet me at the hawd (on the day of judgment)".

The above hadith is widely reported in various versions.

# If Quran is not yet compiled and arranged, why would the prophet refer to it as "Book" when he can easily used other fitting phrase denoting unarranged book?

# Besides, at his deathbed, Umar himself equally refer to "Book of God". And we expect the prophet especially at his sickbed to give direct order for the compilation and arrangement of the Quran had it been that it has not been arranged and compiled.

AlBaqir:

# Sunni stories on the compilation and arrangement of the Quran if it is true cast a huge doubt on the intention and action on those who said to have rearrange and recompiled Qur'an.

* Abu Bakr and Umar had said to have compiled Quran and used for around 16 years of their combined reign. Perhaps they still preserve the 7 styles of Quran revelation and reading just as Nabi left it (altogether).

* Uthman came to the helm, review the work of his predecessors and was not satisfied obviously, dismantled their work, destroyed all the styles of the Quran except that of the " Qurayshi style".

AlBaqir:

Alas according to Sunni authentic hadith! Even after this, a Qurayshi (Abdullah ibn Abbas) who no doubt was more knowledgeable than Uthman cast doubt on a verse of the Quran saying that was not the way it was revealed.

AlBaqir:

There is a huge problem in those so-called stories of compilation. And I personally believe that those stories were fabricated to give huge credit to the first three caliphs (as you can read part of what s.ino posted). Unfortunately the fabricators were not smart enough to close all doors of suspicion.

tintingz:
The Quran can be rewrite, there is nothing special and strange about it.

tintingz:

I've read the "Al furqan" it has flows like the Quran, many non-arabs will even mistake that Al-furqan to be Quran verse.

The Quran is in Arabic, I can read Arabic so what language are you talking about again?

tintingz:

Hadith said the Quran was rewritten.


Which means there are things that are fact not about the Quran?

But it was in history they differ in Quran right?

tintingz:

And what about ancient Sahaba clashes in arab that's causing problem today?

tintingz:
But has flows like the Quran.

I've the PDF copy, you can download it or send it to your mail.

So it means you can't differentiate between Arabic bible and the Qur'an? Chaiiiii, Taiwo you keep falling my hands everyday, in fact you don dey fall my feet sef!

tintingz:
Hadith said the Quran was rewritten.

Empiree:
So now, why do you believe in this "hadith"?.

From what i gathered, you have not even agreed with any hadith across the board. How come you bite this hadith tightly with your molar?. I am just curious

Demmzy15:
So it means you can't differentiate between Arabic bible and the Qur'an? Chaiiiii, Taiwo you keep falling my hands everyday, in fact you don dey fall my feet sef!

tintingz:
Lol, the copy of Al-furqan I have contain both Arabic and translation, I've read the bible, the Al-furqan(The true furqan) doesn't have any flow like the bible but the Quran. It only contain Christianity beliefs.

OK but you slow last last!