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|Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Katsumoto: 11:19am On Dec 29, 2009|
However, having strong regions with a weak or absent centre will not lead to the disappearance of the current thugs. The current political thugs get away with their strategies because the individuals with intellect can not practise politics as currently espoused by the current political elite. Politics of intimidation, fear, kidnap, assassination, etc will not simply disappear.
We have all witnessed how far these people will go; why do you guys think that if it can be practised at the national, state and LG levels, it can not be practised at regional levels. How will prospective Igbo leaders who want to rule the eastern region tackle the Ubas? or that new guy in Ogun state, Kashamu? Or Ibori, Duke in South-South? If the thugs do not go away, how do you make them go away? Only the masses can put an end to this never ending circle of violence, thuggery, and intimidation and from what I have seen of Nigerians, they will not do that for obvious reasons.
But I agree with your points that the caliphate or any other power group would be almost powerless in orchestrating affairs in the regions. But that is ignoring the fact that candidates can be sponsored by godfathers in other regions. Remember Akintola in the 1960s.
This is just my opinion anyway.
|Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Katsumoto: 11:23am On Dec 29, 2009|
I wasn't ignoring the mis-managed 87% at the centre; I was only trying to make the point that it is not only the centre that is corrupt but the LG and state governments as well. It was to counter the argument that regional government would be better managed with confederations of disintegration of Nigeria.
|Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by kosovo(m): 11:32am On Dec 29, 2009|
There are horrible people who, instead of solving a problem, tangle it up and make it harder to solve for anyone who wants to deal with it. Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
|Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Afam(m): 11:37am On Dec 29, 2009|
No wahala. I was surprised because part of my post was reproduced in your write up and my views have never opposed any valid complaints and wickedness by anyone, group or nation.
No one can silence those who feel hurt and who are hurt by injustices by fellow Nigerians. I have been a victim of such injustices so would not stop voicing them out especially when others want you to stop with the funny suggestion that we should move forward without even acknowledging the mistakes and errors of some people in the past.
However, my opinion is that we should focus on the issues and let us not allow those who derail threads with insults to continue to do so.
I disagree with all manner of people on all manner of issues outside this forum and we don't bring in insults because there is usually mutual respect and as long as everyone understands that things become easier to handle.
|Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by kosovo(m): 11:43am On Dec 29, 2009|
The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.
|Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Katsumoto: 11:46am On Dec 29, 2009|
Please explain further what you mean by the highlighted text.
|Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by asha80(m): 11:49am On Dec 29, 2009|
Nobody said these political thugs will totally dissappear but there influence and numbers will drastically reduce
Most of the intellectuals cannot practice in this system because the system is highly flawed.This flawed system has been practised for a long time (since 1970) that that the low lifes ot the different regions have garnerd enough power and money to wield around.
Those vices will not toally disappear but they will surely reduce.
Are the Ubas not being tackled already despite the current flawed system?How much more when the Ubas will no longer have a whole lot of backing from the center,Was is not the long period we practiced this flawed system that the Ubas had the time to garner the wealth and power they are wielding at the moment?
The thugs would not want to go away for now because the system being [practised now encourages corruption.Put a situation that discourages corruption and take it from there,Why should i governor of maybe one of these unviable states hustle to get money to run my state when i can conveniently wait for allocation from Abuja?
Do not use Akintolas case as an excuse.Why wasn't there a similar case in the then eastern region?
|Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by RichyBlacK(m): 11:59am On Dec 29, 2009|
One essential ingredient for a solution to our many political problems is the resolution (or some honest attempt at resolving) the set of issues that led to the Biafran War.
So much effort has been made to push the war under the rug: changing Bight of Biafra to Bight of Benin, excluding the war from primary and secondary school curricula, tacit negative portrayal of Igbos to create some justification for the atrocities committed against them between 1966 and 1970, etc. However, the deeper we bury the war, the deeper we bury any comprehensive solution to Nigeria's socio-political problems.
|Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by RichyBlacK(m): 12:02pm On Dec 29, 2009|
|Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Dede1(m): 12:07pm On Dec 29, 2009|
I should be all ears if you could tell me what is more fundamental in politics than nationalistic interests. Each time any group of people that is bent in achieving sovereign state brings the issue of Biafra to this forum, posters with deluded mindset such as you would be the source of mud-slinging.
If you pull up all Biafra posts on this board, you will be surprse to find that the dirty hypocrites actually injected vulgar epithet and tribal scent to the discourse.
|Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Dede1(m): 12:09pm On Dec 29, 2009|
Pal, no harm intended. I hope you had a happy Xmas.
|Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Katsumoto: 12:12pm On Dec 29, 2009|
There wasn't a similar case in the Eastern region because the situation in the west was created as a result of Awo going to the Federal House as the leader of the opposition leaving his deputy Akintola as premier. It is almost impossible to ascertain what would have happened if it was NCNC that was in opposition rather than AG. But we do know that the circumstances in the Eastern and Western regions were dissimilar.
The rest of your argument is fine.
|Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Katsumoto: 12:38pm On Dec 29, 2009|
Lots of terrible things were done to the Igbos in the 1960s and like you rightly said, most of the Biafran issues were swept under the carpet. The attempted annihilation of the Igbos was without doubt, barbaric at best and calculated at worst. There can be many reasons for sweeping the issue of Biafra under the carpet.
Bad reason - The rest of Nigeria does not care
Good reason - Some are worried that it may fan the flames of hatred and lead to more tribal conflict
That said, you can not discuss the issues of Biafra without bringing up the events that led to Ojukwu's declaration. There is a lot of mis-information about why Ojukwu led the secession bid. Some say that it was because of his ambitions. I disagree whole-heartedly with that position. I believe that he had a duty to his people to protect them because they were being murdered outside of the East. He was the heir to a very wealthy father and with substantial investments in west, he had a lot to lose if he went ahead with the war. As he was a young man then, he did make many mistakes.
I believe the events of January 66 set the ball rolling. Whilst it is wrong to blame a whole tribe for the actions of a few young men, any rational thinker should conclude that the manner of execution, the positions of those executed, and the controversial decision to not take action against Igbo leaders (both political and military) on that morning in Jan 1966 led to deep-seethed hatred of the Igbo by the Northerners.
Anyone refusing to accept that the actions of January 1966 set off the chain of events leading to the civil war is just as guilty as anyone refusing to acknowledge the attempted annihilation of the Igbos.
|Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Dede1(m): 1:01pm On Dec 29, 2009|
Nigeria is tribal. Anybody that is not comfortable with the discussion involving ethnic bias in Nigeria is a closet tribal irredentist and deceptive individual. The names that we bear in Nigeria are tribal in nature and even the food we eat.
I could not hold back incurring headache from laughing when I read the statement about sitting nuclear power plants in south-western and northern regions of Nigeria that was accredited to the chieftain of Oodua Peoples Congress (OPC), Dr. Frederick Fasehun.
The OPC leader had enjoyed the federal government of Nigerian skewed and misguided templates or measures used in sitting industries, parastatals, infrastructures and other social amenities in south-western and northern regions for 49 years, he never for one day in his freaking life remembered or agitated that such infrastructures and amenities should also be sited in southeastern region of Nigeria.
Now that the federal government, led by empty-headed drones, is making a noise about building nuclear power plants in southwestern and northern regions, the demented punk had been heard attempting to throw southeastern region into the madness
|Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Onlytruth(m): 8:21pm On Dec 29, 2009|
Thanks again Bro Richy, I couldn't say more.
|Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Onlytruth(m): 8:33pm On Dec 29, 2009|
This is half-truth. The socio-cultural and political circumstances in the Eastern and Western regions were dissimilar, Period. You however acknowledged that the Federal Govt was partly to blame for the problems of the west then. The undue Federal influences are the 800 pounds gorillas in the rooms of Nigerian political mess. Obasanjo did everything within his power to export that western Nigerian godfather idea to South east and South south in his 8 years rule.
That is why I reject the notion that godfathers would thrive in the east if we have more regional control. Dem never born the person wey go try am for Igboland! Igbo people say that "ofu onye siere oha, oha ericha, mana oha siere ofu onye, ogaghi ericha!" roughly translated -(no sinlge individual is stronger than the entire community). That saying is at the root of Igbo republicanism. So godfathers can't thrive in Igboland without Abuja's propping.
|Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by SapeleGuy: 9:18pm On Dec 29, 2009|
^^^ Thank you.
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
|Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by sleekp1: 9:33pm On Dec 29, 2009|
Did it set off a chain reaction or what?
|Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Katsumoto: 9:51pm On Dec 29, 2009|
You are correct with regards to the text in bold; however, I was referring to the circumstance that the Yoruba were in Opposition while Igbo were in Power with the hausa/fulani.
|Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Katsumoto: 10:45pm On Dec 29, 2009|
15 prominent figures will never be equal to 30,000 innocent easterners. But you have to take certain points into context.
1. Just like you have argued about certain issues which are central to Igbo culture, you also have to consider the god-like statures of the murdered northerners. Ahmadu Bello was a descendant of Uthman Danfodio; Balewa was PM
2. When Nzeogwu went after the Sardauna, he shelled the building not caring about the lives of the women and children in the building.
3. The murder of Maimalari and largema by Ifeajuna was taken badly by the northern soldiers. Maimalari was the most senior Northern officer in the Army and was Ifeajuna's boss. Maimalari escaped Okafor by jumping over a fence but flagged down Ifeajuna not knowing Ifeajuna was one of the coupists. Ifeajuna promptly shot him. Removing Maimalari's name plate at Brigade HQ almost caused a riot because the Northern NCOs refused to believe he was dead. Largema, CO of the 4th Battalion at Ibadan came to Lagos to attend Maimalari's party and was staying at a hotel in Ikoyi. Largema was away from his troops; there was no reason to kill him. He was killed by Ifeajuna who was aware of his accommodation due his relationship with Maimalari. Largema's body was thrown down from the floor he was staying on. Ifeajuna was a protege to Maimalari
4. Ifeajuna warned his cousin Zik about the coup. Zik went to chill in the Caribbean on health grounds. He was president and Igbo and everyone around him in power was being slaughtered
I have delibrately left out others, prominent Yoruba, killed that day because the Northerners would not have acted because of the Yoruba elite murdered.
Like I said, killing 30,000 innocent Igbo because of the murder of prominent northerners can not be justified but there is no law that says that when you kill my one son of mine, I can not kill all your children. I may be so enraged at losing my favourite son that I decide to kill your whole family. I still believe that the actions of jan 1966 set off a chain of events.
|Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Katsumoto: 10:55pm On Dec 29, 2009|
I forgot to mention the murders of Col Kur Mohammed and lt col pam. Pam was the son of the chief of jos and was also respected by the Nothern soldiers.
Also, Ironsi the top man in the Army was spared.
|Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Afam(m): 11:08pm On Dec 29, 2009|
You cannot be speaking from both sides of the mouth. The Igbos who complain about the massacre of innocent men, women and children based on what some soldiers did (not even all of them were Igbos) and even if they were all Igbos they never represented the Igbos considering their profession do so because there is no justification for that.
Everyone knows that the events of 1966 led to the problems and massacres including the war but can you justify the killings?
If you can then do not deny those who complain and cry out for the senseless loss of lives.
If you cannot or do not justify it then make it clear.
You cannot claim that the killings were not justified and yet in the same post go about trying to justify the killings.
Meanwhile, your take on reprisals is ok with me as I believe so but in doing that I will hit back at those responsible and not anyone that remotely comes from the same village or region with the person I want to attack. Doing so would mean that you are no different from those who visit their neighbors to slaughter them just because in another region someone from your tribe was killed based on a personal matter between the person and another.
We must rise above the pettiness and hidden hate that are usually masked with general statements or we should be bold enough to support a position whether right or wrong.
You also stated that Ironsi was spared and yet he foiled the coup. What manner of analysis is that?
|Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by sleekp1: 11:08pm On Dec 29, 2009|
Kudos I could not have put it as succinctly as you did.
|Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by sleekp1: 11:15pm On Dec 29, 2009|
If you agree the events of 66
led to the problems and massacres including the warthere goes your answer.
In other words Afam is saying the North over reacted.
|Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Katsumoto: 11:29pm On Dec 29, 2009|
I have stated my opinion which is that the killings were not justified.
The analysis I gave is from the point of view of an observer. How did I justify the killings? I was only trying to paint a picture of what must have fuelled the hatred of the Northern soldiers for the Igbos. Something was responsible for the hatred that fuelled the murder of fellow citizens. Do you think the Northern soldiers were waiting for the coup of January so that they could use it as an excuse to annhilate the Igbo? I don't think so. The events of Jan 66 pushed them to that point.
About 3-4 thousand people died on september 11. How many Iraqis and afghans have died since then? Tens of Thousands and they are still dying daily.
Was Ironsi not spared? Did anyone attempt to kill Ironsi? If he was killed, would he have foiled the coup? There could be many reasons for sparing Ironsi. The Northerners argue he was spared because he was Igbo like most of the plotters. Some argue that Ironsi was part of the plot. I don't know how true that is. Even though Ironsi foiled the coup, he resisted pressure from the Northerners to try the coup plotters. Maybe the plotters spared him, assuming that he may spare their lives as he was Igbo like them. But we do know that Ironsi was not killed by the Jan 66 plotters.
If you do not accept my analysis, please feel free to enlighten me on why the Northerners attempted to annhilate the Igbo and why Ironsi was not killed. I am most interested in getting an Igbo view on this.
|Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Onlytruth(m): 2:01am On Dec 30, 2009|
It is disingenuous of you to equate the American war on terror with the genocide of 1966. It is like comparing apples and mangoes. Nigerian civilians woke up one day and started killing their neighbors because of the actions of few soldiers. Like Afam pointed out, if the northern officers carried out the whole operation of killing Igbo officers and politicians (even if they killed all of them!) it could still somehow be rationally defended.
The fact remains that Nigerian civilians woke up and started killing their neighbors. And when the dust settled, about 50,000 lay dead. The only rational explanation would be that these killers had other reasons to embark on the killings. The only real historical comparison would be the 1994 Rwandan genocide when Hutu civilians butchered 800,000 Tutsis just because a Hutu President (Juvenal Habyarimana) was killed.
I'll tell you one thing, until people like you stop defending an open evil, Igbo minds would never truly be Nigerian again. Stop defending or justifying evil.
I have nothing to say to Sleek_P except that the history of Nigeria is still unfolding. Don't be gleeful yet!
|Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Dede1(m): 2:43am On Dec 30, 2009|
It is rather unfortunate this forum is free to everybody that has access to Internet and encourages them to post all forms of ridiculous and unfounded conjectures. Nigerian history is open to serious-minded individuals bent on correcting political missteps of the generations from yester years to see.
The political turmoil that engulfed the western region of Nigeria in the 60s was fermented in the northern region by the NPC stakeholders. Few northern soldiers were errand boys to the politicians in NPC determined to sink Koran in the Atlantic Ocean. .
Also, there is always strict observance of military parlance by the soldiers. Any coup that failed to mainly target the politicians noted for brewing political anarchy within their sphere of influence or outside their region may be reaching for idiotic federal character. In addition, any coup that neglected the need to adhere strictly to dictates of military parlance is bound to fail.
The January 15, 1966 coup was carried out without fear or favor. The politicians behind the script of mayhem that played out in western region of Nigeria were targeted. Any politician listed for any form of embezzlement was visited.
In the military circle, soldiers entrusted with command responsibilities were targeted. It was not a matter of most senior military officer from the northern region of Nigeria or most junior officer from the eastern region of Nigeria. Any soldier that had a strategic command position was an open season to the coup plotters.
Nigerians that twisted the recorded events of the 60s era as to achieve their selfish political end and make Ndigbo look like villains in the eyes of everyone also set the colonial contraption to the path of perpetual downward spiral.
|Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Katsumoto: 8:56am On Dec 30, 2009|
Why is it that you expect everyone to share your point of view. I told you categorically that I do not justify the killing of Igbo people. The problem is that you expect everyone to have the same reaction to a catalyst; we know that is not true. I have asked you, what do you think were the reasons for the massacre? After more than 40 years, you should have an idea what those reasons were.
Yes I know that the American war of terror is not similar to the genocide in the 60s; I was only making the point that sometimes, innocent people die as a result of the actions of others. Could you not see that similarity? Yes there was an overreaction from the northerners to killing of their prominent sons, no one is arguing with that. What I am saying that it was a reaction to some other event which we all know.
You guys want to discuss the issue of Biafra but once there is an opinion that is slightly different from yours, you start attacking the opposing voice. In how many ways am I supposed to say I do not condone the murder of innocent civilians. You want to be rational in a conflict but what if your opponent is not rational, what do you do.
|Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Katsumoto: 9:23am On Dec 30, 2009|
Dede, you amaze me sometimes.
Ok, let us assume that you are correct. You expect the Northerners to accept that their sons were killed for strategic reasons. Who would reason in such a manner after such an event? Would the son of a man killed because he was he was contesting for a post with another man, accept the reasons for is father's death?
To answer your questions
So the only individuals causing problems in Nigeria were everyone else except Igbo? Why does this sound so familiar?
Please explain to me the strategic reasons for Killing Largema, Shodeinde and his pregnant wife? Shodeinde was only an instructor at the military school and commanded no troops. Largema was in an hotel in lagos; he was the commander of the 4th battalion in Ibadan. Were his troops 10 minutes away? Explain to me why Ifeajuna told Zik to go and hide and Zik did not warn the other members of his government about the impending brouhaha? Instead Zik went to relax in the caribbean. Ironsi was GOC, there was a reason for him to have been eliminated but he wasn't. Why was that?
Now tell me, why just kill them; why not just arrest them? Whether you like it or not, there was a coup. The fact is that those chaps were blood-thirsty. Ifeajuna killed his mentor, Maimalari; Onwuategu killed his boss Shodeinde with his pregnant wife. Nzeogwu killed the Sardauna with one of his wives. That coup was carried out by a group of predomintly eastern officers and it targeted anyone that was not Igbo. So from your argument, only none Igbos were in strategic positions but Igbo people were not in strategic positions? So the Igbo officers were so altruistic that they decided to act because of events in the west?
What military parlance are you talking about? That was the first coup in Nigeria; you make it seem as if they already had some rules for future coup plotters. I said it before and I will say it again, 'Anyone refusing to accept that the actions of January 1966 set off the chain of events leading to the civil war is just as guilty as anyone refusing to acknowledge the attempted annihilation of the Igbos.'
|Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Afam(m): 10:22am On Dec 30, 2009|
Let me make this crystal clear.
Tens of thousands of Igbos (or any tribe for that matter) cannot be killed for the actions of a few soldiers that do not represent them unless there are other reasons for the massacre.
If your justification is ok then I believe it makes sense for the Igbos to target and kill non Igbos especially those that killed their own in the massacres? Does this make sense to you?
The problem you have is that you are a tribal bigot and cannot see anything unless you are using a tribal prism to view it.
If you call the killing of innocent people by their own neighbors and friends as over reaction even when the victims had not connection with the actions of a few soldiers then you are living in denial.
There is no justification for the massacres.
However, feel free to justify it but remember that what goes around comes around and if in your lifetime a similar thing happens to your people don't just complain.
Why do we try to twist the facts about the events between 1966 and 1970 if it is as simple as the north over reacting?
I guess you have not heard of a call to kill Igbos and take their properties in the North long before the war by politicians who believe the Igbos came to their lands to do business and they are making progress and buying up properties everywhere? If you have not heard about this please try to learn about it as I won't be pointing you to any material.
|Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Katsumoto: 11:15am On Dec 30, 2009|
We are all here to share opinions, educate, and learn at the same time. Why do you continue to call it justification even when I have condemned the unjust killings?
It is not a secret that the Igbos were doing very well in the North. I suspect, going by the trends that I have observed in my lifetime, that the Northerners would have been envious of the success of the Igbos. I am not sure if I have heard of a call to kill the Igbos and take their properties but I can not doubt that it is true. The question I have for you is this, 'was the call before or after the first coup?'.
If the call was before the coup, then the coup plotters probably gave the Northerners the UNJUSTIFIED reason for carrying out the genocide and part of my argument still stands. If the call was after the coup, then my argument stands.
One of the problems with Nigeria and Nigerians is a lack of good strategy. I am not sure that the British taught our 1st generation officers anything about good strategy. If they did, it has not shown by the actions of our officers. If there was a call to kill the Igbos in the North before the coup, did the plotters react to this call? If they did, were they not aware of the repercussions on their kin if they failed?
If there was a call to kill the Igbos, why did they remain in the North, why were they not protected? Why are there still so many Igbo people in the North today? The North has not changed much since the 60s; if anything, they strike at southerners for the most flimsy excuses.
Now a question for the Igbo chaps; Dede, Afam, OnlyTruth, and others
Does a coup carried out by predominantly eastern officers targeting non-igbo political and military elite appear to have an objective of making the Igbo the predominant power brokers in Nigerian politics and military circles? Please be objective, we all seem to be educated and enlightened individuals. I have repeatedly admitted that the Igbos were targeted unjustly and that the massacres can be called genocide.
If there is ever any action to deal with the genocide in the 60s and the civil war and you table your arguments, expect that the other parties will have arguments as well. They will not just turn and accept whatever you say. We are discussing this because RichyBlack brought it up.
|Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by BrutusOne: 11:32am On Dec 30, 2009|
As a true Nigerian, and one sickened by our dark and despicable war history, I must say both Afam and Katsumoto are correct in their arguments. I think we should leave this debate to them; we may all learn something about how to have a constructive and respectful debate. Or better yet, understand some of the underlying tribal hatred amongst our peoples – maybe if we do there’d be some glimmer of opportunity to heal the divide that is tearing this nation apart.
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