This is an apologetic view on the validity of Jesus's claim to be the saviour and redeemer of mankind.

The goal here is that those who doubted may find reason to believe.

The argument is that believers have already presented the scriptures as basic historical evidence for the existence of Jesus. So that those who do not believe therefore have the obligation to provide their own evidences.

Christ is in me, I feel him, I touch him,.

There is wide spread disagreement among scholars of the details of the life of Jesus mentioned in the gospel naratives, and on the meaning of His teachings, and the only two events subject to 'almost universal assent' are that Jesus was baptised by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman prefect Pontius Pilate. According to New Testament scholar James Dunn, nearly all modern scholars consider the baptism of Jesus and His crucifixion to be historically certain.

Ref: wikipedia


The first fact to establish here is that Jesus did actually exist, and that stories of Him were not entire fiction.

Based on this fact, one can therefore argue that the biblical narratives of Him (or any material at all) can be used to some level of reliabilty.

John Meier views the crucifixion of Jesus as historical fact and states that based on the criterion of embarassment Christians would not have invented the painful death of their leader. The criterion of embarassment is also used to argue in favor of the historicity of the baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist. It is a story which the early Christian Church would have never wanted to invent. Other references to Jesus and His execution exist in the Talmud, but they aim to discredit His actions, not deny His existence.

Evidence from non-christian sources even affirm that Jesus did exist and was crucified.

Non Christian sources which are used to study and establish the historicity of Jesus include Jewish sources such as Josephus and Roman sources such as Tacitus. That He was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be since both Josephus and Tacitus agree with the Christian accounts,..

The crucifixion of Jesus happens to be the basis of the Christian faith which is believed to be the condition for mankind's salvation and atonement. Salvation and atonement are purely Christian ideals which are not shared by any other religion.

So the basic fact that Jesus was crucified is historical evidence that points at Christ as the Way to God. Those who would not believe the biblical accounts therefore can hold on to these historical facts about the genuity of Jesus' sacrificial atonement for their sins and those of all mankind and believe.

Qur'an confirmed that:

1. Jesus is human being created without father just like Adam without father and mother.

2. Jesus is a Prophet sent by God like Abraham, Moses, Muhammad etc.

3. Jesus while alive never called mankind to worship him instead of God nor did he claim being a son to God or part of the triune God.

4. Jesus preached to mankind to worship their creator without partner.

Auki:
Qur'an confirmed that:

1. Jesus is human being created without father just like Adam without father and mother.

2. Jesus is a Prophet sent by God like Abraham, Moses, Muhammad etc.

3. Jesus while alive never called mankind to worship him instead of God nor did he claim being a son to God or part of the triune God.

4. Jesus preached to mankind to worship their creator without partner.

Ok, but did the Quran affirm that he was crucified?

Spy360:

Ok, but did the Quran affirm that he was crucified?

Qur'an confirmed that those that intended harm to Jesus were the losers. God lifted Jesus onto Himself without being humiliated. Jesus enemy was crucified.

Auki:


Qur'an confirmed that those that intended harm to Jesus were the losers. God lifted Jesus onto Himself without being humiliated. Jesus enemy was crucified.

Ok.

But history says he was crucified. The Bible also confirms it.

His crucifixion is the most important aspect of the christian faith, because that is God's requirement for the atonement of mankind's sins.

According to the Bible, Christ fulfilled God's will and demand, and then was glorified- ascended to God's throne, after he resurrected.

Without the crucifixion, there is no salvation for mankind, we are all doomed to eternal punishment because we have all sinned.

Spy360:

Ok, but did the Quran affirm that he was crucified?

Qur'an confirmed that those that intended to harm Jesus were the losers. God lifted Jesus onto Himself without being humiliated. Jesus enemy was crucified.

Spy360:

Ok.

But history says he was crucified. The Bible also confirms it.

His crucifixion is the most important aspect of the christian faith, because that is God's requirement for the atonement of mankind's sins.

According to the Bible, Christ fulfilled God's will and demand, and then was glorified- ascended to God's throne, after he resurrected.

Without the crucifixion, there is no salvation for mankind, we are all doomed to eternal punishment because we have all sinned.

Your creator, the knower of the visible and invisible, said Jesus crucification didn't happen.

Quran: Mankind salvation lies in worshipping our creator, obeying the prophets, doing right things and avoidance of evils.

God only requires we seek forgiveness for our sin not blood of Jesus.

That has been the pattern before Jesus and during Jesus life time and after his ascension. Roman pagans invented all these if you but know.

Auki:


Your creator, the knower of the visible and invisible, said Jesus crucification didn't happen.

Quran: Mankind salvation lies in worshipping our creator, obeying the prophets, doing right things and avoidance of evils.

God only requires we seek forgiveness for our sin not blood of Jesus.

That has been the pattern before Jesus and during Jesus life time and after his ascension. Roman pagans invented all these if you but know.

Your claim is based on the quran, I could equally quote the bible. But here I referred to non christian sources which proved historically the crucifixion of Jesus, thereby confirming the authenticity of the Biblical claim.

To receive forgiveness according to ancient practices, there has to be atonement. That was why goats and lambs were offered for atonement for sins.
But goats and lambs are not God's requirement for atonement. They were more like indicators of the graveness of sin.
Jesus chose to take the place of sacrificial 'lamb' in order to fulfil God's requirement. His sacrifice is an everlasting one because He remains alive to make intercession for those who accept His sacrifice.
Without this sacrifice, mankind is doomed.

If Roman pagans invented it, then why would the disciples of Jesus- Peter, James, John and others propagate it? These people were matyred by the Romans for the convictions they stood for. They couldn't have been persecuted for propagating a lie invented by their persecutors.

Spy360:

Your claim is based on the quran, I could equally quote the bible. But here I referred to non christian sources which proved historically the crucifixion of Jesus, thereby confirming the authenticity of the Biblical claim.

It seems you are looking for sources that support and confirm what you want. OK.

To receive forgiveness according to ancient practices, there has to be atonement. That was why goats and lambs were offered for atonement for sins.

Most ancient practice are idols practice. God way is sincere repentance not blood.

But goats and lambs are not God's requirement for atonement. They were more like indicators of the graveness of sin.
Jesus chose to take the place of sacrificial 'lamb' in order to fulfil God's requirement. His sacrifice is an everlasting one because He remains alive to make intercession for those who accept His sacrifice.
Without this sacrifice, mankind is doomed.

Killing Innocent life for sin of other is unfair to you and the God.

If Roman pagans invented it, then why would the disciples of Jesus- Peter, James, John and others propagate it? These people were matyred by the Romans for the convictions they stood for. They couldn't have been persecuted for propagating a lie invented by their persecutors.

I assure you that Jesus disciples didn't propagate worshipping Jesus. Stories written around Jesus deity especially John is lie and fallacies. You are free to worship whatever you want.

Spy360:
This is an apologetic view on the validity of Jesus's claim to be the saviour and redeemer of mankind.

The goal here is that those who doubted may find reason to believe.

The argument is that believers have already presented the scriptures as basic historical evidence for the existence of Jesus. So that those who do not believe therefore have the obligation to provide their own evidences.

It's rather the believers who should come with concrete evidences to support their claim. If they heard and saw Jesus, why can't they have concrete evidences to prove us wrong. It's a matter of time before all so called religions vanish. After we die, there is nothing but nothingness(Oblivion). After life opinions are comfort means for those who are afraid of life or for those who wanted to live for eternity bowing for their so called God/gods. We should better enjoy our life and leave legacy for future generations, instead of obsessing about the so called false God/gods/religions!

Hati13

I took a stand point- citing references to stake my claim. If you feel I am wrong, then bring evidences to prove such.

Also, it is better to believe in something than to believe in nothing.

Again believing in the after-life gives purpose to one's existence. Believing in 'oblivion' makes your life purposeless.

Finally, assuming you are right that there is no life after here, you and I lose nothing (or we both lose everything). But if indeed there is life after here, then your own soul is damned. Forever damned.

I therefore implore you to give God a chance to make you. I did so, and I promise you I can never exchange that experience of knowing God with anything in the world.
Finally

Spy360:
Hati13

I took a stand point- citing references to stake my claim. If you feel I am wrong, then bring evidences to prove such.

Also, it is better to believe in something than to believe in nothing.

Again believing in the after-life gives purpose to one's existence. Believing in 'oblivion' makes your life purposeless.

Finally, assuming you are right that there is no life after here, you and I lose nothing (or we both lose everything). But if indeed there is life after here, then your own soul is damned. Forever damned.

I therefore implore you to give God a chance to make you. I did so, and I promise you I can never exchange that experience of knowing God with anything in the world.
Finally

How can we bring concrete evidences when there is no God to begin with. If you really believe in God, tell me or show me concrete evidences to support your claim.

Something is only better than nothing, if that something is only good. Is suffering better than oblivion? Answer me!

Living eternal has no purpose. Something is special to you, because you know it won't last forever. If you live eternally, all things will be became pointless to you, because you have eternal time to do what ever you want. Nothing will last forever, even matter!

How can't you lose something when you have lived all your life praying, going to church and bowing to a fake God. If you would have spent those times on some productive things, you could leave legacies for future generations(I'm not referring you, peace ).

How can you be happy and advice others to believe in God, when you haven't saw, heard God?

Hati13:


How can we bring concrete evidences when there is no God to begin with. If you really believe in God, tell me or show me concrete evidences to support your claim.

Something is only better than nothing, if that something is only good. Is suffering better than oblivion? Answer me!

Living eternal has no purpose. Something is special to you, because you know it won't last forever. If you live eternally, all things will be became pointless to you, because you have eternal time to do what ever you want. Nothing will last forever, even matter!

How can't you lose something when you have lived all your life praying, going to church and bowing to a fake God. If you would have spent those times on some productive things, you could leave legacies for future generations(I'm not referring you, peace ).

How can you be happy and advice others to believe in God, when you haven't saw, heard God?

Peace.

Let me begin with the last one.

There are many things we don't see yet we believe they exist since we experience them in other ways. Have you seen happiness or heard electricity? If I tell you I have seen God in vague forms and have heard Him explicitly you may not believe. It's a personal experience anyway.

Already there is meaning to life, there is meaning to the joy, pain, suffering etc we expeience. You talked about legacy, that is meaningful. But believing in oblivion turns everything to nothing. If the end is oblivion, then why leave a legacy?

All is meaningless without God, including 'legacy'.

Believing in oblivion is worse than suffering. People smile even in the face of suffering. But smiling to oblivion is madness indeed. A meaninglessness.

Spy360:

Peace.

Let me begin with the last one.

There are many things we don't see yet we believe they exist since we experience them in other ways. Have you seen happiness or heard electricity? If I tell you I have seen God in vague forms and have heard Him explicitly you may not believe. It's a personal experience anyway.

Already there is meaning to life, there is meaning to the joy, pain, suffering etc we expeience. You talked about legacy, that is meaningful. But believing in oblivion turns everything to nothing. If the end is oblivion, then why leave a legacy?

All is meaningless without God, including 'legacy'.

Believing in oblivion is worse than suffering. People smile even in the face of suffering. But smiling to oblivion is madness indeed. A meaninglessness.

I'm not saying, if you heard or saw God, come to us and tell us that you have heard or saw God. I'm saying, bring concrete evidences(photo and video for example) to prove us wrong.

You leave legacy not for yourself, but for your families and future generations. We were nothing before we were born and will be nothing after we die. There is no scary, pointless about it.

How can suffering be worth than nothingness. Why do people complete suicide? It is to get out of their suffering. When we die, our consciousness will become nothing, but our atoms will be recycled to be used again. We will not feel happy or sad or there is no difference between 1 second or trillions years, because we are nothing anymore. But our deeds, legacy and memories will live with our families and other people, until those who know us themselves die.

Love, happiness and so on.... are special to you, because they have their limits.

Hati13:

I'm not saying, if you heard or saw God, come to us and tell us that you have heard or saw God. I'm saying, bring concrete evidences(photo and video for example) to prove us wrong.

You leave legacy not for yourself, but for your families and future generations. We were nothing before we were born and will be nothing after we die. There is no scary, pointless about it.

How can suffering be worth than nothingness. Why do people complete suicide? It is to get out of their suffering. When we die, our consciousness will become nothing, but our atoms will be recycled to be used again. We will not feel happy or sad or there is no difference between 1 second or trillions years, because we are nothing anymore. But our deeds, legacy and memories will live with our families and other people, until those who know us themselves die.

Love, happiness and so on.... are special to you, because they have their limits.

You could as well ask me to bring concrete evidences that Oparaokoroafor is my ancestor.

People commit suicide to escape sufferings, people also get matyred for their convictions. Boko Harams commit suicide because they believe in an after-life. So suicide cannot be used as a pointer.

Let us go back to the historicity of Jesus. Do you accept that he actually existed?

Spy360:

You could as well ask me to bring concrete evidences that Oparaokoroafor is my ancestor.

People commit suicide to escape sufferings, people also get matyred for their convictions. Boko Harams commit suicide because they believe in an after-life. So suicide cannot be used as a pointer.

Let us go back to the historicity of Jesus. Do you accept that he actually existed?

From what I saw on TV, most scholars agreed that, there was a man around the first A.D, who claimed to be son of God. They also agreed that, he was crucified by the Romans. I think that man could be real, but all that was said about him was a lie to me. I don't believe there is such things as God/gods. If those God/gods are real, then they are definitely other world beings. I truly believe that their are Aliens out there. May be they had visited us in the past. May be what most people worship as God/gods could be them. I'm not saying they are definitely Aliens. I'm saying "MAY BE"!

If you want/can, read my topic named "There is no such things as God/gods/Lack/Miracles", just to know my perspectives.

Hati13:

From what I saw on TV, most scholars agreed that, there was a man around the first A.D, who claimed to be son of God. They also agreed that, he was crucified by the Romans. I think that man could be real, but all that was said about him was a lie to me. I don't believe there is such things as God/gods. If those God/gods are real, then they are definitely other world beings. I truly believe that their are Aliens out there. May be they had visited us in the past. May be what most people worship as God/gods could be them. I'm not saying they are definitely Aliens. I'm saying "MAY BE"!

If you want/can, read my topic named "There is no such things as God/gods/Lack/Miracles", just to know my perspectives.

Jesus being crucified on the orders of Pontius Pilate is a historical fact which can be verified. The mere fact that he was crucified gives credence to the christian faith, being the basis of the christian salvation.

No one, not even His disciples would be so convinced unless that they have judged Him credible. It takes an incredible amount of faith to accept a man's claim to be Son of God.

I am equally shocked that you believe in aliens but don't believe in God. Whereas those two have similar structures of logic and reasoning.

I don't know if there are aliens out there because there are yet no evidences to prove. It would be interesting if aliens do exist.

Question: What was before the big bang? Answer: God.
Question: What was before God?

Jesus is a roman invention to deceive and also as a mockery against God...

He was written into existence by Eusebius, the master forger on the other of Constantine the roman emperor..

The messiah God promised the jews and the one they are waiting for is a normal man like you and me not a demi God, he is coming to rule as a king like David and Solomon. He will also deliver them from their enemies and build the temple and restore the daily sacrifice to God. He is coming once as there is no second coming arrangements.

Spy360:
This is an apologetic view on the validity of Jesus's claim to be the saviour and redeemer of mankind.
The goal here is that those who doubted may find reason to believe. The argument is that believers have already presented the scriptures as basic historical evidence for the existence of Jesus. So that those who do not believe therefore have the obligation to provide their own evidences.

Jesus Christ never claimed to be saviour and redeemer of mankind though. He was explicit in His proclamations that He was sent only to the Lost Sheep of Israel, this by His Father, the God of Israel. Over and over, He made it known that He did not come to save all men but only those who were weary and heavy-laden, those who were condemned by God of His Old Law of Moses - Matthew 11 vs 28 - 30 - the sinners among the people of Israel.

Kobojunkie:
Jesus Christ never claimed to be saviour and redeemer of mankind though. He was explicit in His proclamations that He was sent only to the Lost Sheep of Israel, this by His Father, the God of Israel. Over and over, He made it known that He did not come to save all men but only those who were weary and heavy-laden, those who were condemned by God of His Old Law of Moses - Matthew 11 vs 28 - 30 - the sinners among the people of Israel.

messiah means king of the jews. jesus never said he was sent only to lost sheep of israel, that was added by the unknown author of matthew who had his own agenda.
Mark is the first gospel to be written and that jargons is not written there, Matthew is based on Book of Mark. Also the other gospel books never made that reference you love repeating.

Spy360:

The argument is that believers have already presented the scriptures as basic historical evidence for the existence of Jesus.

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall, Humpty Dumpty had a great fall, Humpty Dumpty was 8 feet tall,
Humpty Dumpty died for the sin of all.

That’s more believable than the magical jew bullshit called Jesus.

The only way the Jesus story is true is if it alleges the Jew came to steal from you. That will be believable despite the magical bullshit because what the Jew is good at is theft.