AgentOfAllah:
jtigwell0, can you define free will and destiny?

done above

jtigwell0:
append("to you";

Yeah, just like you see greek Gods stories as myths.

He knows better than you and I.

I dont think so.

Yes.

If Allah knows those that will ask for forgiveness, then what exactly is freewill?

You can only get it if you get there... hopefully we will..

Astronauts have landed on moon, you are still hoping, are you not the flat earther?

chineese people of today w=may not be the ones that situated the current china in the ancient, might aswell be blacks..

Modern day china was not even long drawn geographically? so which chian are you talking about...

Evidence please...

we all have brain to reason and know the truth...

Then what happens if your truth cannot be reason or call fact?

You don't accept the Quran, but you will accept a history book? Ok

History have evidence for their research, i prefer an historical evidence than a mystical tale book.

omg!

Please dont tell me north africans were really inhabitants in africa.

tintingz:
Yeah, just like you see greek Gods stories as myths.

Astronauts have landed on moon, you are still hoping, are you not the flat earther?

H2O still doesnt convexise..

Evidence please...

c'mon, doyou still need evidence to be told the present day China is the china in 1508? if NK and USA starts a war nw, more maps will be redrawn..

Then what happens if your truth cannot be reason or call fact?

by who?

History have evidence for their research, i prefer an historical evidence than a mystical tale book.

lol...you dont believe in the incident of the pharoahs and also accepts history? cognate

Please dont tell me north africans were really inhabitants in africa.

for the records, you said, ALL AFRICANS ARE BLACK

jtigwell0:
done above

Okay. Does God know if I'll end up in hell or heaven?

AgentOfAllah:


Okay. Does God know if I'll end up in hell or heaven?

Allaah does not admit people to Paradise or Hell simply because He knows that they deserve that, rather He will admit them to Paradise or Hell on the basis of the deeds that they actually did in this world. If Allaah created mankind and put them in His Hell, they would soon argue that He did not test them or give them the chance to strive. Allaah wanted to refute this argument, so He created them in this world and gave them reason, and revealed His Books, and sent His Messengers; all of that is so that they will have no argument against Allaah on the Day of Resurrection.

Here's an example. Not a good one but something that will clarify the logic.

Say Jhon is your friend. He is walking down the street and runs into you. You both chat for a while. Then you ask Jhon where he is going. He tells you that he is going to the other side of town. You tell him that the road he's taking is blocked, there's a fight between two groups and he will surely not be able to make it to the other side of town and will get hurt or- even worse- die. If he listens to you and trust you, he will change his mind. If he doesn't and continue the path you believe is dangerous, he will get hurt. Now do you think you were being unjust to your friend Jhon? Do you think you were being tricky? Or was it more like Jhon's own stupidity that sent him the path you both clearly knew was dangerous.

It's the same with our deeds. Allah (SWT) clearly tells us not to do certain things. To believe in him and always seek His forgiveness. But still we go our own way. We do what we think is right. And then when bad things happen to us or when we are punished for what we have done, we blame Allah (SWT) for it? I seek refugee in Allah.

jtigwell0:
Allaah does not admit people to Paradise or Hell simply because He knows that they deserve that, rather He will admit them to Paradise or Hell on the basis of the deeds that they actually did in this world. If Allaah created mankind and put them in His Hell, they would soon argue that He did not test them or give them the chance to strive. Allaah wanted to refute this argument, so He created them in this world and gave them reason, and revealed His Books, and sent His Messengers; all of that is so that they will have no argument against Allaah on the Day of Resurrection.

Here's an example. Not a good one but something that will clarify the logic.

Say Jhon is your friend. He is walking down the street and runs into you. You both chat for a while. Then you ask Jhon where he is going. He tells you that he is going to the other side of town. You tell him that the road he's taking is blocked, there's a fight between two groups and he will surely not be able to make it to the other side of town and will get hurt or- even worse- die. If he listens to you and trust you, he will change his mind. If he doesn't and continue the path you believe is dangerous, he will get hurt. Now do you think you were being unjust to your friend Jhon? Do you think you were being tricky? Or was it more like Jhon's own stupidity that sent him the path you both clearly knew was dangerous.

It's the same with our deeds. Allah (SWT) clearly tells us not to do certain things. To believe in him and always seek His forgiveness. But still we go our own way. We do what we think is right. And then when bad things happen to us or when we are punished for what we have done, we blame Allah (SWT) for it? I seek refugee in Allah.

You evaded my question! I didn't create Jhon, I didn't cause the fight, I didn't make Jhon's path dangerous, and there's no way I know for sure, as in with 100% certainty that Jhon will be harmed, I've only just guessed and I may yet be wrong. Jhon may come out unscathed! Allah created me and created hell, so is Allah guessing my destination or does Allah know it with 100% certainty? Just answer my question directly, without any contrived analogies.

AgentOfAllah:

You evaded my question! I didn't create Jhon, I didn't cause the fight, I didn't make Jhon's path dangerous, and there's no way I know for sure, as in with 100% certainty that Jhon will be harmed, I've only just guessed and I may yet be wrong. Jhon may come out unscathed! Allah created me and created hell, so is Allah guessing my destination or does Allah know it with 100% certainty? Just answer my question directly, without any contrived analogies.

We do have the option to do what we want but there are consequences for it later. In this life, God allows things to happen and take place. He allows us to choose but holds us accountable when we disobey or do things wrong. This life is meant to be a test for us. Think of it like this: You are taking an exam at a university and you have the free choice to mark any answer you wish but the consequences for it will be later during the grading process. We as Muslims believe the grading process is in the afterlife.
“[He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed – and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving.” [Qur’an 67:2]
Also, just because you did something wrong doesn’t mean you’re going to Hell. It’s all up to God. He is the best of judges and knows who deserves His Mercy and who deserves His wrath. It’s not up to us. As a Muslim, I don’t know if I’m going to paradise or not. It’s not up to me. It’s up to God. This is why we have stories in our texts of even sinful people entering paradise at times and seemingly righteous people entering hell. It’s because God knows those who deserve it and those who do not. There is always some reason behind it which we may or may not understand. We do the best we can in order to earn His pleasure by obeying His laws and keep hope for His mercy. That’s what He wants. He wants us to try our best to find and follow the truth to the best of our ability. Think of it like this: You work at a company and hope to get a promotion from your CEO. You do your best but at the end of the day, you really don’t know if you’re going to get that promotion or not. But this doesn’t stop you from trying to impress the CEO. Just imagine that CEO to be absolute just, fair, non-partisan, no weaknesses, and full of absolute wisdom.

jtigwell0:
"she" is a language... if I start my own language and make "she" reference to male, we are all fine..

We're in a world where "she" represent "feminine" and for the records no Islamic scholars have use "she" for Allah as he's known to be "he", no Islamic manuscripts used "she" for Allah, so again if I use "she" for Allah, hope the Muslim community won't go uproar?

how do they clash?

Read my post again and tell me they are not clashing.

You're born a Muslim, you're destine to be a Muslim and die a Muslim, kindly tell me how freewill play a role here.

wrong!

Can you define destiny for me please, it is like I'm just wasting my time.

AgentOfAllah:
jtigwell0, can you define free will and destiny?

I think this will brighten up the argument, he should define freewill and destiny.

He has gotten me confused throughout the argument.

jtigwell0:
you worship not for something in return on earth..
None is superior, they work perfectly exclusively...
Destiny is the 4 things that have been pened down for you... which cant be changed..
Free will on the other hand have nothing to do with destiny, its how you live your daily life... Free will doesnt work with age, you can't outgrow your destiny, freewill can't provide wealth exceeding your destined wealth or less..

If I'm to go to ijebu in the next 30 minutes, am I acting on freewill or destiny?

your eventual destination is not in yur destiny, it will be determined by how you use your free will..

Can you define freewill?

If my destination(destiny) is to enter a mall by 2:00pm but I choose to go to a party at that time, does my destiny said I will choose a party than going to the mall?

jtigwell0:
H2O still doesnt convexise..

Is that an evidence no one has landed on moon?

c'mon, doyou still need evidence to be told the present day China is the china in 1508? if NK and USA starts a war nw, more maps will be redrawn..

We're not talking about China map, show me evidence Chinese were Muslims and Allah sent prophet to them and stop diverting the argument

by who?

Is it a fact Elijah rode on chariot of fire to the sky? Tell me how reasonable that happened.

lol...you dont believe in the incident of the pharoahs and also accepts history? cognate

There is no archaeological and historical evidence about Pharaoh, Moses, splitting of sea etc they are said to be myth, legends. Gog and Magog are ancient myths, legends.

for the records, you said, ALL AFRICANS ARE BLACK

Lol, I know you will say this.

All Africans are blacks, the north Africans are not originally Africans but Arabs, just like Jamaicans are not originally Americans.

We are talking about Adam which you said he was traced in Africa, were Arabs(north Africans) inhabitants of Africa then? Please don't tell me the first humans in Africa were not blacks.

AgentOfAllah:

You evaded my question! I didn't create Jhon, I didn't cause the fight, I didn't make Jhon's path dangerous, and there's no way I know for sure, as in with 100% certainty that Jhon will be harmed, I've only just guessed and I may yet be wrong. Jhon may come out unscathed! Allah created me and created hell, so is Allah guessing my destination or does Allah know it with 100% certainty? Just answer my question directly, without any contrived analogies.

Lol, he forgot Allah also created Satan, he has not tell us why Allah created Satan, was/is Satan acting independently or by Allah's plan.

Raintaker:

We do have the option to do what we want but there are consequences for it later. In this life, God allows things to happen and take place. He allows us to choose but holds us accountable when we disobey or do things wrong. This life is meant to be a test for us. Think of it like this: You are taking an exam at a university and you have the free choice to mark any answer you wish but the consequences for it will be later during the grading process. We as Muslims believe the grading process is in the afterlife.
“[He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed – and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving.” [Qur’an 67:2]
Also, just because you did something wrong doesn’t mean you’re going to Hell. It’s all up to God. He is the best of judges and knows who deserves His Mercy and who deserves His wrath. It’s not up to us. As a Muslim, I don’t know if I’m going to paradise or not. It’s not up to me. It’s up to God. This is why we have stories in our texts of even sinful people entering paradise at times and seemingly righteous people entering hell. It’s because God knows those who deserve it and those who do not. There is always some reason behind it which we may or may not understand. We do the best we can in order to earn His pleasure by obeying His laws and keep hope for His mercy. That’s what He wants. He wants us to try our best to find and follow the truth to the best of our ability. Think of it like this: You work at a company and hope to get a promotion from your CEO. You do your best but at the end of the day, you really don’t know if you’re going to get that promotion or not. But this doesn’t stop you from trying to impress the CEO. Just imagine that CEO to be absolute just, fair, non-partisan, no weaknesses, and full of absolute wisdom.

Please read the question I asked and answer it. I don't follow your prevarications.

jtigwell0:
Allaah does not admit people to Paradise or Hell simply because He knows that they deserve that, rather He will admit them to Paradise or Hell on the basis of the deeds that they actually did in this world. If Allaah created mankind and put them in His Hell, they would soon argue that He did not test them or give them the chance to strive. Allaah wanted to refute this argument, so He created them in this world and gave them reason, and revealed His Books, and sent His Messengers; all of that is so that they will have no argument against Allaah on the Day of Resurrection.

Here's an example. Not a good one but something that will clarify the logic.

Say Jhon is your friend. He is walking down the street and runs into you. You both chat for a while. Then you ask Jhon where he is going. He tells you that he is going to the other side of town. You tell him that the road he's taking is blocked, there's a fight between two groups and he will surely not be able to make it to the other side of town and will get hurt or- even worse- die. If he listens to you and trust you, he will change his mind. If he doesn't and continue the path you believe is dangerous, he will get hurt. Now do you think you were being unjust to your friend Jhon? Do you think you were being tricky? Or was it more like Jhon's own stupidity that sent him the path you both clearly knew was dangerous.

It's the same with our deeds. Allah (SWT) clearly tells us not to do certain things. To believe in him and always seek His forgiveness. But still we go our own way. We do what we think is right. And then when bad things happen to us or when we are punished for what we have done, we blame Allah (SWT) for it? I seek refugee in Allah.

You gave an example without seeing the loop holes, does Allah knows about the end of Jhon adventure or this adventure happened without Allah's knowledge?

AgentOfAllah:

You evaded my question! I didn't create Jhon, I didn't cause the fight, I didn't make Jhon's path dangerous, and there's no way I know for sure, as in with 100% certainty that Jhon will be harmed, I've only just guessed and I may yet be wrong. Jhon may come out unscathed! Allah created me and created hell, so is Allah guessing my destination or does Allah know it with 100% certainty? Just answer my question directly, without any contrived analogies.

Allah knows if you do this particular thing, you end up in hell, he doesn't want you to, but you chose to..

tintingz:
We're in a word were "she" represent "feminine" and for the records no Islamic scholars have use "she" for Allah as he's known to be "he", no Islamic manuscripts used "she" for Allah, so again if I use "she" for Allah, hope the Muslim community won't go uproar?

I can speak for only my self personally, I won't even blink an eye, so far I understand the context or msg you are passing...

You're born a Muslim, you're destine to be a Muslim and die a Muslim, kindly tell me how freewill play a role here.

I hope to die a muslim...

Can you define destiny for me please, it is like I'm just wasting my time.

I did up there, read my post again..

jtigwell0:
Allah knows if you do this particular thing, you end up in hell, he doesn't want you to, but you chose to..

This is not the question I asked. Why can't you just be direct? I asked if Allah knows for sure whether I'll be going to heaven or Hell? Does Allah 100% know my destination? It's really a yes/no question., not that complicated

AgentOfAllah:

Please read the question I asked and answer it. I don't follow your prevarications.

why should I care about your question?

I am explaining what predestination and Freewill in Islam is.


Take an example. When we close all the doors of a room, this is our action and the result it entails, namely, that our room becomes dark is the effect of our action manifested by God Almighty. This is God’s eternal law. In the same way if we were to swallow poison in a fatal dose, this would doubtless be our action; our death following upon this action of ours would be God’s action in accord with His eternal law ( predestination) . Thus every action of ours is followed by a Divine action that is manifested after our action and is its necessary result. This system operates both in that which is manifest and also in that which is hidden. Every good or bad action of ours creates an effect which is manifested after our action.
You have raised the objection that shows that man acts under compulsion and is given no choice. Verses in the Quran clearly indicate man’s choice and his acquisition of good or evil; for instance
‘Man will have nothing but that which he strives for’ ( 53:40)
‘If God were to punish people for all that they do by their free choice no living creature would be left on the earth’ (35:46)
‘Each one shall have the benefit of the good he does and shall suffer the consequences of the ill his work’ ( 2:287)
And so on. All these verses point againt God compelling man to do some bad action or be undeserving of divine reward due to predestination.
It must be noted that Predestination ( or ‘taqdeer’ as muslims call it) is the determination of a measure; as Allah says in the Quran:
He has created everything and has determined its measure. ( 25:3)
This does not show that man has been deprived of choice. Indeed choice is a part of that measure. God Almighty having taken the measure of human nature and human capacity called it ‘Taqdir’ or Predestination, and as part of it He determined up to what degree man would have choice in his actions. It is a great mistake to interpret predestination as meaning that man is under compulsion not to take advantage of the faculties bestowed upon him by God.
This might be illustrated by drawing attention to the mechanism of a watch which cannot continue to work beyond the measure determined by its maker. In the same way a human being cannot achieve anything that is beyond the faculties that are bestowed upon him.
It is a grievous mistake to imagine that the Holy Quran has adjudged some people as deserving of hell as a matter of compulsion and that they have been compulsorily subjected to the authority of Satan. On the contrary God Almighty had said in the Holy Qur’an, addressing Satan:
Satan! you will have no authority over My true servants ( 15:43)
The notion that God teaches that some people have been compulsorily condemned to hell or have their ‘hearts sealed’ is misplaced.
Addressing Satan, Allah says: “I will surely fill hell with thee and with those who follow thee from among them, all together.” ( 38:86)
This shows clearly that God Almighty will not condemn people to hell without cause. He will so condemn only those who would have earned such condemnation through their misconduct.
It is also said:
‘He adjudges astray many through this world and guides aright many, but He adjudges astray only those who chose to go astray and are guilty of misdeeds.’ ( 2:27)
This means that man is judged by God according to his conduct; as when a person opens the window of his room that faces the sun the light of the sun naturally falls on his face, but when he shuts the window he creates darkness in the room by his own action.

tintingz:
If I'm to go to ijebu in the next 30 minutes, am I acting on freewill or destiny?Can you define freewill?

You are acting on free will...

If my destination(destiny) is to enter a mall by 2:00pm but I choose to go to a party at that time, does my destiny said I will choose a party than going to the mall?

free will: you can control
destiny: you can't control...

if you go to ijebu in the next 30 mins, if your destiny has it that you won't make it there, so be it, and if otherwise, so be it...
You want to cook something, if it is destined you will eat it, you will finish the cooking and eat, if it is not, you will encounter an obstacle which will forbid you..

jtigwell0:
I can speak for only my self personally, I won't even blink an eye, so far I understand the context or msg you are passing...

Ok

I hope to die a muslim...

You're still hoping to die a muslim.

Does Allah knows you're still hoping?

I did up there, read my post again..

Not clear.

tintingz:
Is that an evidence no one has landed on moon?

not the topic for today..

We're not talking about China map, show me evidence Chinese were Muslims and Allah sent prophet to them and stop diverting the argument

where were the chineese of ancient situated?

Is it a fact Elijah rode on chariot of fire to the sky? Tell me how reasonable that happened.

I a yet to read about this...

There is no archaeological and historical evidence about Pharaoh, Moses, splitting of sea etc they are said to be myth, legends. Gog and Magog are ancient myths, legends.

wow! no archeological evidence of PHAROAH!??!! in fact slap yourself

Lol, I know you will say this.

All Africans are blacks, the north Africans are not originally Africans but Arabs, just like Jamaicans are not originally Americans.

We are talking about Adam which you said he was traced in Africa, were Arabs(north Africans) inhabitants of Africa then? Please don't tell me the first humans in Africa were not blacks.

I never said Adam was traced in Africa, or is Sri Lanka in Africa? I said he was said to have situated in the MODERN DAY SRI LANKA... but the oldest archeological trace of human existed is said to be from north east africa, and middle east asia..

tintingz:
Lol, he forgot Allah also created Satan, he has not tell us why Allah created Satan, was/is Satan acting independently or by Allah's plan.

[Iblees] said, "My Lord, because You have put me in error, I will surely make [disobedience] attractive to them on earth, and I will mislead them all Except, among them, Your chosen servants."

tintingz:
You gave an example without seeing the loop holes, does Allah knows about the end of Jhon adventure or this adventure happened without Allah's knowledge?

Yes... he knows Jhon will die if he pass that path..

tintingz:
Ok

You're still hoping to die a muslim.

Does Allah knows you're still hoping?

Not clear.

sure because, because am still being tested...

Destiny is the 4 things that have been pened down for you... which cant be changed..
Free will on the other hand have nothing to do with destiny, its how you live your daily life... Free will doesnt work with age, you can't outgrow your destiny, freewill can't provide wealth exceeding your destined wealth or less..
...Then an angel is sent and he breathes the spirit into (the foetus), and is charged with four commands: to write down his provision, his life-span, and whether he will be wretched or wealthy, and he/she will be given a span of deeds to the extent he will be a cubic feet away from paradise and the span of deeds to the extent he will be a cubic feet away from hell." [al-Bukhaari, Muslim].

jtigwell0:

You are acting on free will...

free will: you can control
destiny: you can't control...

if you go to ijebu in the next 30 mins, if your destiny has it that you won't make it there, so be it, and if otherwise, so be it...
You want to cook something, if it is destined you will eat it, you will finish the cooking and eat, if it is not, you will encounter an obstacle which will forbid you..

If I'm going to Ijebu in the next 30 minutes, it is a future event, I've not yet gone. So according to you I acted on freewill on my future event?

This is not about eating what I cooked, this is about will I even cook or not, is it in my destiny I will cook at a particular time?

It seems you don't even know what destiny and freewill is

Raintaker:
why should I care about your question?

This is a good question! If you wish to have a conversation with me, then you should care about my question. This is what conversations are. Otherwise, you really aren't obliged to care. Nor am I obliged to care about your impertinent explanation.

Adios!

tintingz:
If I'm going to Ijebu in the next 30 minutes, it is a future event, I've not yet gone. So according to you I acted on freewill on my future event?

This is not about eating what I cooked, this is about will I even cook or not, is it in my destiny I will cook at a particular time?

It seems you don't even know what destiny and freewill is

You confused your self in the first instance... You want to visit Ijebu, good!
IF DESTINY has it that you won't get there, YOU WON'T...
If destiny says you will get there in maybe 5hours, you will surely be delayed...

jtigwell0:
not the topic for today..

Ok

where were the chineese of ancient situated?

Don't divert the question, just show me evidence, Chinese were Muslims and Allah sent a prophet to them, where they situated has nothing to do with the question.

I a yet to read about this...

If you don't know Elijah rode on chariot of fire in the Quran, I wonder what you have been reading in the Quran.

wow! no archeological evidence of PHAROAH!??!! in fact slap yourself

There are different Pharaohs in Egypt, I'm talking about the event of "Pharaoh, Moses, red sea" events. There is nothing like that in history and archaeology.

I mentioned Pharaoh, Moses and red sea.

I never said Adam was traced in Africa, or is Sri Lanka in Africa? I said he was said to have situated in the MODERN DAY SRI LANKA... but the oldest archeological trace of human existed is said to be from north east africa, and middle east asia..

So where is Sri Lanka?

The early humans(Y-chromosomal Adam) were said to migrate from Africa.

jtigwell0:
[Iblees] said, "My Lord, because You have put me in error, I will surely make [disobedience] attractive to them on earth, and I will mislead them all Except, among them, Your chosen servants."

Was Satan acting on Allah's plan or independently? Yes or no?

jtigwell0:
sure because, because am still being tested...

Destiny is the 4 things that have been pened down for you... which cant be changed..
Free will on the other hand have nothing to do with destiny, its how you live your daily life... Free will doesnt work with age, you can't outgrow your destiny, freewill can't provide wealth exceeding your destined wealth or less..
...Then an angel is sent and he breathes the spirit into (the foetus), and is charged with four commands: to write down his provision, his life-span, and whether he will be wretched or wealthy, and he/she will be given a span of deeds to the extent he will be a cubic feet away from paradise and the span of deeds to the extent he will be a cubic feet away from hell." [al-Bukhaari, Muslim].

Does Allah knows you will pass or fail the test? @bolded

jtigwell0:
Yes... he knows Jhon will die if he pass that path..

Good, since Allah knows Jhon will die in that path, was Jhon acting independently? Does the adventure planned by Allah or it just happened?