petergriffin:
intentional abortion is bad but if it happens beyond our control that is totally different

well That is debatable as evident in this thread.

budaatum:

Once a fetus is alive it is human? So it can live on its own, outside my body? Or am I 2 people in one body?

If it is human in its own right then let it dwell outside my body in its own right. While it's in my body it's under my jurisdiction and killing it is no, different to cutting off my right hand. What's it to do with you, I laugh?

Thankfully, wiser people have resolved that my above thinking is time limited. What's to stop me aborting just one day before you're due to be born, would be the appropriate retort.

All you atheists make me laugh. You go around blaming God for deaths and here you all are advocating for deaths yourselves

Una no serious.

McSterling:

I'd like to know why you think abortion is morally wrong.

I think we should be cautious about limiting the frequency of abortion just to avoid the risk of taking what might likely be a human life since we don't know for sure if life begins at conception, or few days or few weeks after.

McSterling:
Thanks for your input.

You're welcome

chemystery:


I think we should be cautious about limiting the frequency of abortion just to avoid the risk of taking what might likely be a human life since we don't know for sure if life begins at conception, or few days or few weeks after.

Tell this to your fellow atheists who believe a fetus is not human even at 40 weeks

chemystery:


I think we should be cautious about limiting the frequency of abortion just to avoid the risk of taking what might likely be a human life since we don't know for sure if life begins at conception, or few days or few weeks after.

Okay. Agreed.

@Sarassin, I'd like to see your take on this.

butterflyl1on:


All you atheists make me laugh. You go around blaming God for deaths and here you all are advocating for deaths yourselves

Una no serious.

All butter's atheists cannot be blaming a non-existent god for deaths. Get your atheists right please. If I cut off my right hand and claim god done it tell me I am mad!

Honestly, I don't know what your problem is. If I abort festus, and if as you claim, God considers abortion of festus is a sin, then surely God would cast me in hell no? You need to stop trying to save me!

budaatum:

All butter's atheists cannot be blaming a non-existent god for deaths. Get your atheists right please. If I cut off my right hand and claim god done it tell me I am mad!

Honestly, I don't know what your problem is. If I abort festus, and if as you claim, God considers abortion of festus is a sin, then surely God would cast me in hell no? You need to stop trying to save me!

Dude I do not even know you and neither do I think I have ever had a conversation with you so how then am I trying to save you?

Did I preach Jesus to you here?

You need to quit deluding yourself into thinking anyone is out to get you. Your hallucinations must be on fleek. You would do well by telling your shadow to quit looking over its shoulder.

butterflyl1on:


Chai

A miscarriage is not an abortion. Spontaneous means sudden.

abortion
noun
the deliberate termination of a human pregnancy, most often performed during the first 28 weeks


miscarriage
noun
the spontaneous or unplanned expulsion of a fetus from the womb before it is able to survive independently.

Do you see the difference? Spontaneous is what shows that the termination was unplanned.

Abortion simply means TERMINATION. spontaneous termination is the word so I understand your ignorance due to the word ABORTION being used.

It's simply a lack of understanding on your part.

Spontaneous abortion is the medical name. A more accepted every day parlance is miscarriage. No go talk miscarriage for clinical meeting, they'll laugh you out of the room.

What you regularly call abortion in medical circles is called induced abortion or termination of pregnancy.

Cc Humanistme

CatfishBilly:

Spontaneous abortion is the medical name. A more accepted every day parlance is miscarriage. No go stalk miscarriage for clinical meeting, they'll laugh you out of the room.

I am already aware of that. However whenever spontaneous abortion is said it is referring to miscarriage and not "abortion" as it were.

butterflyl1on:


I am already aware of that. However whenever spontaneous abortion is said it is referring to miscarriage and not "abortion" as it were.

In everyday English, yes, but in medical circles, if you say abortion, you have to be specific. Was it spontaneous or induced. Miscarriage is not accepted.

This post is in direct response to your "miscarriage is not abortion" post.

wirinet:


If abortion is murder, then who speaks for the over 50% of all fetuses that are naturally aborted (miscarried). Who is murdering 50% of all fetuses because they cannot talk?

See report;


Many times an egg is fertilized with a sperm to form a zygote, but the zygote is unable to implant itself unto the uterus, it ends up as an aborted pregnancy. Same thing as having an abortion within 4 weeks of pregnancy.

People die everyday naturally doesn't make murdering one less wrong. Fetuses may be aborted naturally everyday doesn't make willful abortion anything less than murder

CatfishBilly:

In everyday English, yes, but in medical circles, if you say abortion, you have to be specific. Was it spontaneous or induced. Miscarriage is not accepted.

This post is in direct response to your "miscarriage is not abortion" post.

We are saying the same thing. Medically, when they say spontaneous abortion they actually mean Miscarriage.

I never said they have to say "miscarriage ". However the word "spontaneous " describes the kind of abortion. Read my posts again and see that I have said this all along and not that miscarriage is the term. Miscarriage is simply the inference.

wirinet:


You guys love to appeal to emotional blackmail to impose your moral sensibilities on others.
Murdering a fetus is an oxymoron, murder refers only to a person, a human being. Cells are not referred to as a person, and definitely a sperm and ovum merging together cannot be said to be a person.

I could not have been aborted because my patents wanted me badly. They went to great lengths with expenses to conceive me. I can say I never lack love.

A woman should never be forced to birth a child she does not want.

Abortion has not reduced the world population, in fact it is increasing in geometric proportions.

I do believe you are also made of cells, supposed Person is still union of cells - this doesn't help at all.

As far as i know we are all cells and you wouldn't argue this makes it okay to kill us all

butterflyl1on:


We are saying the same thing. Medically, when they say spontaneous abortion they actually mean Miscarriage.

I never said they have to say "miscarriage ". However the word "spontaneous " describes the kind of abortion. Read my posts again and see that I have said this all along and not that miscarriage is the term. Miscarriage is simply the inference.

Spontenous abortion and induced abortion. .

When the word "abortion" is used alone it may mean any of the two kinds.

I want to present my argument with a story, listen to me and try to read meanings to my words.

On a very good Christmas i spent at the village about a decade ago, i was quite small and enjoyed christmases a lot. On the 24th of december mama made a pot of Ogbono soup, as i relished mine i noticed we had chicken in it which was unusual in a typical kpako Nigerian home.

The chicken is always reserved for the special occasion which was supposed to be the next day 25th december, you know christmas and all, a lot of swag came with that.

I was happy at the same time suspicious of the whole thing " does this mean we won't get to eat chicken tomorrow?"

I had to ask papa what was going on, why did we have chicken in our soup because i was very certain we only came back to the village with one huge white broiler from the town.

Papa laughed and explained.

"yes we will still eat Chicken tomorrow, the chicken we just ate is from a hen that breaks and drinks it's own eggs"

This story always comes to my mind when i am involved in arguments about abortions as people always bring the "fetus is not human argument" as absurd as i find that notion i will still argue even if this is the case doesn't still make it okay to kill it.

Now we can take eggs from a hen and eat, the eggs may be eaten by a snake or other predators or breaks by accident - these are naturally okay.

But when the mother hen by herself breaks her own eggs and drinks them, this is not okay, it was a disgusting sight for a hen to do this, this was exactly the reason why that hen had to be killed.

An egg may not be entirely a chicken but an egg is still chicken kind.

let me know if you made anything out of this story

I am a Free Thinker, not a Humanist. Beware of Humanism and Humanists.

Do I think abortion is immoral? Morality is subjective therefore my opinion is not based on morality but my view of Life.

My view of Life is that Life is a (single conscious entity). It would take a very long time to explain so anyone interested can read my blog at 320ro.com.

Short answer. The prerogative of Life is to survive and thrive at all costs yet while Life is conscious Life is not fully aware. In other words; we are Life yet we do not know it therefore we destroy aspects of ourselves in blissful ignorance. Sex has (one) purpose but the process has a side effect; Pleasure. So, because we lack awareness we value the pleasure more than the purpose then have to deal with the consequence.

Is it immoral? We have the freewill to decide based on our level of understanding of Life. If you have interfaced Life using a religion then the moral teachings of that religion should be your guide.

If you’re a Humanist then you will believe that you have the choice to do what you want because humanity is all you see. The rest of Life does not matter to you or just exists for your pleasure. In such a case nothing supercedes humanity, not even the choice to decide who lives or dies.

Dohgon:
I am a Free Thinker, not a Humanist. Beware of Humanism and Humanists.

Do I think abortion is immoral? Morality is subjective therefore my opinion is not based on morality but my view of Life.

My view of Life is that Life is a (single conscious entity). It would take a very long time to explain so anyone interested can read my blog at 320ro.com.

Short answer. The prerogative of Life is to survive and thrive at all costs yet while Life is conscious Life is not fully aware. In other words; we are Life yet we do not know it therefore we destroy aspects of ourselves in blissful ignorance. Sex has (one) purpose but the process has a side effect; Pleasure. So, because we lack awareness we value the pleasure more than the purpose then have to deal with the consequence.

Is it immoral? We have the freewill to decide based on our level of understanding of Life. If you have interfaced Life using a religion then the moral teachings of that religion should be your guide.

If you’re a Humanist then you will believe that you have the choice to do what you want because humanity is all you see. The rest of Life does not matter to you or just exists for your pleasure. In such a case nothing supercedes humanity, not even the choice to decide who lives or dies.

My guy. Your are not a freethinker. You are a locked up thinker.

Go and learn about humanism before you start saying ignorant things

johnydon22:
I want to present my argument with a story, listen to me and try to read meanings to my words.

On a very good Christmas i spent at the village about a decade ago, i was quite small and enjoyed christmases a lot. On the 24th of december mama made a pot of Ogbono soup, as i relished mine i noticed we had chicken in it which was unusual in a typical kpako Nigerian home.

The chicken is always reserved for the special occasion which was supposed to be the next day 25th december, you know christmas and all, a lot of swag came with that.

I was happy at the same time suspicious of the whole thing " does this mean we won't get to eat chicken tomorrow?"

I had to ask papa what was going on, why did we have chicken in our soup because i was very certain we only came back to the village with one huge white broiler from the town.

Papa laughed and explained.

"yes we will still eat Chicken tomorrow, the chicken we just ate is from a hen that breaks and drinks it's own eggs"

This story always comes to my mind when i am involved in arguments about abortions as people always bring the "fetus is not human argument" as absurd as i find that notion i will still argue even if this is the case doesn't still make it okay to kill it.

Now we can take eggs from a hen and eat, the eggs may be eaten by a snake or other predators or breaks by accident - these are naturally okay.

But when the mother hen by herself breaks her own eggs and drinks them, this is not okay, it was a disgusting sight for a hen to do this, this was exactly the reason why that hen had to be killed.

An egg may not be entirely a chicken but an egg is still chicken kind.

let me know if you made anything out of this story

In this scenario you painted, the hen devours its eggs due to an irresistible urge to do so. If we have humans who just get pregnant and abort due to an irresistible urge to do so, I'm sure that the person would be sent to a mental home.

Now, on the other hand, induced abortion is procured when there are socioeconomic factors which make the option of choosing to have the child a poor decision.


They're apples and oranges in my view.

johnydon22:
I want to present my argument with a story, listen to me and try to read meanings to my words.

On a very good Christmas i spent at the village about a decade ago, i was quite small and enjoyed christmases a lot. On the 24th of december mama made a pot of Ogbono soup, as i relished mine i noticed we had chicken in it which was unusual in a typical kpako Nigerian home.

The chicken is always reserved for the special occasion which was supposed to be the next day 25th december, you know christmas and all, a lot of swag came with that.

I was happy at the same time suspicious of the whole thing " does this mean we won't get to eat chicken tomorrow?"

I had to ask papa what was going on, why did we have chicken in our soup because i was very certain we only came back to the village with one huge white broiler from the town.

Papa laughed and explained.

"yes we will still eat Chicken tomorrow, the chicken we just ate is from a hen that breaks and drinks it's own eggs"

This story always comes to my mind when i am involved in arguments about abortions as people always bring the "fetus is not human argument" as absurd as i find that notion i will still argue even if this is the case doesn't still make it okay to kill it.

Now we can take eggs from a hen and eat, the eggs may be eaten by a snake or other predators or breaks by accident - these are naturally okay.

But when the mother hen by herself breaks her own eggs and drinks them, this is not okay, it was a disgusting sight for a hen to do this, this was exactly the reason why that hen had to be killed.

An egg may not be entirely a chicken but an egg is still chicken kind.

let me know if you made anything out of this story

fetus are yet to be call human, yes they posses life but human stage development isn't complete... Likewise the same things with chicken egg..if you disagree with me answer this questions?


80% of the fertilized eggs are menstruated, then why aren't women who menstruate after having unprotected sex charged with murder?

Why don't we have funeral when there is miscarriage?

Humanistme:


the question is for humanists and freethinkers not religionists.

WHO IS A RELIGIONIST? ARE THEY NOT HUMAN? EEH!

vaxx:
fetus are yet to be call human, yes they posses life but human stage development isn't complete... Likewise the same things with chicken egg..if you disagree with me answer this questions?


80% of the fertilized eggs are menstruated, then why aren't women who menstruate after having unprotected sex charged with murder?

Why don't we have funeral when there is miscarriage?

WTF fertilized eggs are not menstruated for God sake, unfertilized eggs are menstruated.

Fertilized egg is called a zygot and that is a damn baby..

And besides Natural deaths does not make murder OK.

CatfishBilly:

In this scenario you painted, the hen devours its eggs due to an irresistible urge to do so. If we have humans who just get pregnant and abort due to an irresistible urge to do so, I'm sure that the person would be sent to a mental home.

Now, on the other hand, induced abortion is procured when there are socioeconomic factors which make the option of choosing to have the child a poor decision.


They're apples and oranges in my view.

There are socioeconomic implications in Human over population that doesn't still make it OK to kill any of us

johnydon22:


WTF fertilized eggs are not menstruated for God sake, unfertilized eggs are menstruated.

Fertilized egg is called a zygot and that is a damn baby..

And besides Natural deaths does not make murder OK.

I can see we finally agree on something.

Simply because people have the unavoidable tendency of dying does not mean that we can wilfully still carry out the same act.

Every zygote has a right to live if they did not have one then they would not have been fertilised as an egg. Fertilisation is a way of "selectively" offering life to humanity and nobody has any right to deny that right. If many believe Children have a right to decide their faith or lack of based on indoctrination or lack of then fetuses deserve even more when it comes to choice of life.

johnydon22:


There are socioeconomic implications in Human over population that doesn't still make it OK to kill any of us

That's why government enact policies like the one child policy, free contraceptives, etc.
The idea is to prevent the humans from being born and abortions achieve exactly that.

On the other hand, whether a fetus is is considered alive or the fetus becomes alive is one debate that will continue till the end of time. Which is why the choice of having the baby should rest with the parents of the baby.


Abortion is not and can never be murder. No court of law has declared it so. All we have is subjective interpretations. Every single country that has banned abortion did so out of some religious belief.

Science and research have no legal basis for such laws.
So, it's all he said she said.

I personally, I'm pro choice. If you feel you can't give the barest minimum needed care to the infant and want to abort? I support you 100%

What's the use of having tons of children you can't cater for and they end up becoming a nuisance to the society at large?

CatfishBilly:

That's why government enact policies like the one child policy, free contraceptives, etc.
The idea is to prevent the humans from being born and abortions achieve exactly that.

When murder becomes part of this method it becomes not OK.

On the other hand, whether a fetus is is considered alive or the fetus becomes alive is one debate that will continue till the end of time. Which is why the choice of having the baby should rest with the parents of the baby.

I can bet my balls that we all know a fetus is alive.

bortion is not and can never be murder. No court of law has declared it so. All we have is subjective interpretations. Every single country that has banned abortion did so out of some religious belief.

An abortion is not murder as a fetus is not humankind. It's just as abhorable as a hen breaking it's own eggs.

Science and research have no legal basis for such laws.
So, it's all he said she said.

Human laws can be derived from so many factors, religion one of this and if to your abortion is OK because some court of laws does not condemn it well others do even if its own religious basis it does not make it less valid. Law is law savy.

I personally, I'm pro choice. If you feel you can't give the barest minimum needed care to the infant and want to abort? I support you 100%

Personally I am pro preventive method in the first place use a condom, you dont go have raw sex and expect a laptop in return.

What's the use of having tons of children you can't cater for and they end up becoming a nuisance to the society at large?

Pregnancy is avoidable in the first place. Nigeria is overpopulated doesn't justify the need to kill some

johnydon22:


WTF fertilized eggs are not menstruated for God sake, unfertilized eggs are menstruated.

Fertilized egg is called a zygot and that is a damn baby..

And besides Natural deaths does not make murder OK.

this is not true....
Why?

let's say there was an egg that had been fertilized. The womb is an hazardous place to be without implantion. Especially during menstruation. The uterus swells, it contracts, it shed the lining that the egg would've implanted on. If the womb didn't dissolve the fertilized egg before the period, it wouldn't be in a position to stay in there ...

If you accept natural death isn't murder then miscarriage isn't murder tooo

johnydon22:


When murder becomes part of this method it becomes not OK.



I can bet my balls that we all know a fetus is alive.



An abortion is not murder as a fetus is not humankind. It's just as abhorable as a hen breaking it's own eggs.



Human laws can be derived from so many factors, religion one of this and if to your abortion is OK because some court of laws does not condemn it well others do even if its own religious basis it does not make it less valid. Law is law savy.



Personally I am pro preventive method in the first place use a condom, you dont go have raw sex and expect a laptop in return.



Pregnancy is avoidable in the first place. Nigeria is overpopulated doesn't justify the need to kill some

Well, this back and forth is based on the presupposition that abortion is murder. Murder is a clearly defined term and abortions don't fall under it.

As for the argument if a fetus is considered alive or not, that's an argument for another day.

CatfishBilly:

Well, this back and forth is based on the presupposition that abortion is murder. Murder is a clearly defined term and abortions don't fall under it.

As for the argument if a fetus is considered alive or not, that's an argument for another day.

human life begins from conception, from the momment you had sex....and your sperm was able to fertilized egg....that process is when life start....though incomplete. .till 9 months of delivery....my Opinion bro

vaxx:
this is not true....
Why?

let's say there was an egg that had been fertilized. The womb is an hazardous place to be without implantion. Especially during menstruation. The uterus swells, it contracts, it shed the lining that the egg would've implanted on. If the womb didn't dissolve the fertilized egg before the period, it wouldn't be in a position to stay in there ...

If you accept natural death isn't murder then miscarriage isn't murder tooo

I dont even get where this one is coming from, who ever said miscarriage is murder...

Miscarriages are natural and thus like natural death is not murder.

This argument is on induced abortion which in that context is likened to premeditated murder.

Jesus Christ!!!

CatfishBilly:

Well, this back and forth is based on the presupposition that abortion is murder. Murder is a clearly defined term and abortions don't fall under it.

murder
ˈməːdə/
noun
1.
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

Fetus is human and living

As for the argument if a fetus is considered alive or not, that's an argument for another day.

Let us argue on it because I am pretty sure living and non-living cannot be mistaken...