Crescentholm:


Since you claimed I seem to be getting it wrong, can you sincerely state your view on the above.

Are the quotations correct or wrong?

Is the message also ambiguous?

No, you do quote correct references but i am afraid that you misplaced tafsir with wrong ayat of Qur'an.



Now let me make few things clear. I understand that muslims from the time of immemorial have ikhtilaf on the issue of the "death" and "return" of nabi Isa (alayhi salam). However, death they attributed to him(as) was that it was Allah who took his soul. This is line of disagreement bcus Quran is silent on how it actually happened. Both pros and cons only come up with theories and evidences at their disposal. Therefore, a muslim should not make takfir of another muslim who believe Isa(as) died i:e Allah took his soul. It is not kufr to say this. But if a muslim believes or makes it part of his aqeeda that nabi Isa's enemies actually crucified and killed him, this is enough to make takfir of kufr bcus the ayah iterate with CERTAINTY that they did not kill him nor crucify him. Even Quraniyoon don't believe he(as) was crucified.



So you need to make your stand clear on this first. It will be timeless efforts that will get us nowhere if we are to continue arguing whether Allah took his soul or not. Scholars differ on it. But the reason later's opinion is stronger is bcus of overwhelming ahadith which is quite difficult to dismiss. Isn't strange that you avoided those ahadith or you simply don't believe them?.. Also, even without hadith, the ayah of Quran which you avoided hints us of nabi Isa's return. The ayah is located in sura zukhruf 61. Let's hear your view of the ayah.



What's even strange to me is that, many of those who don't believe in the eventual return of nabi Isa(as), believe in appearance of Dajjal. This makes me wonder where exactly is their stance?. We all know Dajjal is 100% evil. When he finally arrives in human form, he would terrorize believers to the point of forcing people to worship him. But his traits precedes his خارجي [khuruj]. My question to those who reject the return of Jesus is, are we gonna be in that damnation and age of fitan forever without divine intervention?.. If Dajjal is to come the implication is their will definitely be divine intervention which is Nabi Isa Ibn Mary'am (alaih salaam).


So the belief that he did not die and will return in the end time is stronger with clear backings from ahadith. That's what I subscribed to.

Empiree:
So what's the point of all your arguments if indeed you acknowledged here that he, nabi Muhammad(saw), was the SEAL OF PROPHETHOOD?.

That's the point of arguments before the issue of nabi isa (as) back and forth since.


Definition of Seal. Seal is verb in that sentence

The point of argument is on various things that makes some muslims ignorantly takfir others, and it include Jihad, DAJJAL, Kattaman nabiyyin, death of Isa a.s.
Alhamdulillah, you haven't categorically refute any of my Quotations, you keep ignoring the points and picking up distractions, and I'll continue to do justice to it from Quran Insha'Allah.

Of course, brother, you are right of the definitions. No doubt words have different definitions as it's common in languages. We're to look at the one that makes the most sense.

Sincerely, of the 3, the one that appeals to common sense is the one with the example that says the King places an emblem or seal to authenticate / perfect it from the others.

The others are clearly applicable to inanimate, sealing an object or metal etc

You're yet to refute the quotation above from the Quran and Hadith bro.

Let me add another from an Hadith of the Prophet pbuh, where he was reported to have said if Musa a.s, son of mata and Isa a.s son of Mariam WERE ALIVE, THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN MY FOLLOWER.


Which of the favour of Allah will you Twain deny?

The Quran is explicit enough "
ذَٰلِكَ الْكِتَابُ لَا رَيْبَ فِيهِ هُدًى لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ

This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt (ambiguity), to those who fear Allah;".

Qadiani liars

The Qadianis believe that Prophethood did not end with Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), rather it is ongoing and Allaah sends messengers according to need.

They believe that Ghulam Ahmed – the founder of Qadianiyyah who was born in 1839 CE and died in 1908 CE – was the best of all the Prophets.

They believe that Jibreel used to come down to Ghulam Ahmed and that he received revelation and that his dreams are like the Qur’aan.

The view of the Ahmedis (Qadianis) concerning the Messiah (peace be upon him) is that he was crucified but did not die on the cross, rather he lost consciousness and was buried, then he fled from his grave to Kashmir, where he died a natural death, and his grave is to be found there.

They interpret his being raised up to heaven as metaphorical not literal, i.e., he was raised in status, not in a physical sense.

This belief of theirs is mentioned in two essays of theirs, the first of which is entitled “The Christian Messiah in India” which was written by Mirza Ghulam Ahmed himself.

The second is entitled “The death of the Messiah the son of Maryam and what is meant by his descent”. This is published by the “World Ahmediyyah Muslim Community”, and they put on the cover a picture of the supposed grave of ‘Eesa (peace be upon him) in Sari Naghar in Kashmir, India.

They say on page 2 that “the Messiah (peace be upon him) was not taken up alive, and no one else was caused to resemble him. Rather he was hung on the cross for a few hours, and when he was taken down he was so deeply unconscious that they thought he was dead. Then after the crucifixion he migrated from Palestine to eastern lands: Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Kashmir and India, and he lived for one hundred and twenty years.”

Mirza Ghulam Ahmed al-Qadiani claimed falsely that Allaah had revealed this information to him, but it is something that was said by some Christians before him, and it seems that he stole the idea from them.

The purpose of the Qadianis in spreading this belief about the Messiah (peace be upon him) is to make it easier to claim that the ahaadeeth which were revealed about the descent of the Messiah and the appearance of the Mahdi at the end of time refer to the emergence of the liar Mirza Ghulam Ahmed al-Qadiani.

The essay referred to clearly states that on page 6 where it says:
“What is meant by the descent of the Messiah the son of Maryam is the sending of another man from the ummah of al-Mustafa (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), who will resemble ‘Eesa ibn Maryam in his attributes and deeds. This promised man appeared in Qadian, India, with the name of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed, a guided imam whom Allah made like the Messiah ‘Eesa ibn Maryam (peace be upon him). He was the promised messiah, al-imam al-mahdi for the ummah of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) who the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) promised would be sent when he said: ‘There is no Mahdi except ‘Eesa.’ (Ibn Maajah, Kitaab al-Fitan ).” End quote.

According to Islamic belief, ‘Eesa (peace be upon him) is a Prophet who was sent, and the Mahdi is a righteous Muslim, not a Prophet or Messenger. The emergence of the Mahdi is one of the lesser signs of the Hour, and the descent of ‘Eesa (peace be upon him) is one of the greater signs of the Hour, and there is a difference between them, as is obvious.
The hadeeth which they quote as evidence, “There is no Mahdi except ‘Eesa” is not saheeh, rather it is a munkar hadeeth which was judged as such by a number of imams, such as al-Nasaa’i, al-Dhahabi and al-Albaani, and it was classed as da’eef by al-Haakim, al-Bayhaqi, al-Qurtubi and Ibn Taymiyah, and al-San’aani classed it as mawdoo’ (fabricated).
See: Minhaaj al-Sunnah (8/256); al-Sawaa’iq al-Muhriqah by al-Haytami (2/476); al-Silsilah al-Da’eefah (77).

Keep misinterpreting texts/verses, keep bringing irrelevant points, keep twisting and confusing yourself. Ghulam Ahmad is simply a Kaafir. I read he permitted Khamr for you guys. And what is the name of your inspired book from that micro-dajjal?

Crescentholm:



No one is saying anyone should join something to make jannah. Infact, that's the character of the Christians, as they believe as Allah said in the Quran that "they are the best among all Nations (so anyone who doesn't join them goes to hell), whereas, Allah challenge them to wish for death if they are truthful to be the best"

Such view is a bit shallow. Why was Muhammad pbuh enjoined to do dawah? After all there was no Muslims during the time of Musa a.s or Jesus a.s, why did Muhammad pbuh still preach to Christians?

I'm just trying to get you to reason with others view not without prejudice and clear off sentiment.

Don't condemn others practice, instead, you should either learn about them from a sincere source (not enemy) or mind your business, not telling lies ignorantly because telling lie is a grevious sin.

The Creed of some is not anyone's business

I will always expose your hidden kufr. Those hidden one you will never tell us. Ahmadis do not marry other Muslims cos they regard them as kuffar. We are Kuffar to them because we do not believe in Ghulam Ahmad as a prophet and we do not believe in his inspiration in English. To us he is a micro-dajjal, a non-muslim who started a cult with British support.

Also Jihad is never relegated to only jihad of the pen.

Even the British are well known for their plot against Islam.

Empiree:
No, you do quote correct references but i am afraid that you misplaced tafsir with wrong ayat of Qur'an.



Now let me make few things clear. I understand that muslims from the time of immemorial have ikhtilaf on the issue of the "death" and "return" of nabi Isa (alayhi salam). However, death they attributed to him(as) was that it was Allah who took his soul. This is line of disagreement bcus Quran is silent on how it actually happened. Both pros and cons only come up with theories and evidences at their disposal. Therefore, a muslim should not make takfir of another muslim who believe Isa(as) died i:e Allah took his soul. It is not kufr to say this. But if a muslim believes or makes it part of his aqeeda that nabi Isa's enemies actually crucified and killed him, this is enough to make takfir of kufr bcus the ayah iterate with CERTAINTY that they did not kill him nor crucify him. Even Quraniyoon don't believe he(as) was crucified.



So you need to make your stand clear on this first. It will be timeless efforts that will get us nowhere if we are to continue arguing whether Allah took his soul or not. Scholars differ on it. But the reason later's opinion is stronger is bcus of overwhelming ahadith which is quite difficult to dismiss. Isn't strange that you avoided those ahadith or you simply don't believe them?.. Also, even without hadith, the ayah of Quran which you avoided hints us of nabi Isa's return. The ayah is located in sura zukhruf 61. Let's hear your view of the ayah.



What's even strange to me is that, many of those who don't believe in the eventual return of nabi Isa(as), believe in appearance of Dajjal. This makes me wonder where exactly is their stance?. We all know Dajjal is 100% evil. When he finally arrives in human form, he would terrorize believers to the point of forcing people to worship him. But his traits precedes his خارجي [khuruj]. My question to those who reject the return of Jesus is, are we gonna be in that damnation and age of fitan forever without divine intervention?.. If Dajjal is to come the implication is their will definitely be divine intervention which is Nabi Isa Ibn Mary'am (alaih salaam).


So the belief that he did not die and will return in the end time is stronger with clear backings from ahadith. That's what I subscribed to.

**I acknowledge brother, but for the Issue of Tafsir needn't be declared as misplaced or imbalance. As a judge, we have a standard, which is the Quran brother. It's the perfect law when Allah perfected His religion for us so IT IS AND WILL NEVER REMAIN SILENT ON ANY ISSUE OF MAN.
Moreover, none of the tafsir was credited to myself. They are works of respected scholars of faith like Jawsi, Ragib, Tabari etc (may Allah have mercy on them).


ON SURAH AZ-ZUKHRUF, Verse 61:
وَإِنَّهُ لَعِلْمٌ لِّلسَّاعَةِ فَلَا تَمْتَرُنَّ بِهَا وَاتَّبِعُونِ هَٰذَا صِرَاطٌ مُّسْتَقِيمٌ

And lo! verily there is knowledge of the Hour. So doubt ye not concerning it, but follow Me. This is the right path.

Let me make somethings clear brother. Allah is the perfect in all raminifications​, including His creation.

*He created Adam a.s without any support (from parents) while IN OPPOSITE, he creates other human with support of human.

* He created Hawau a.s from a man WHILE IN OPPOSITE, he creates Isa a.s from a woman
etc.

*In the Quran, the mention of daylight equals the number of nights, etc.

There, in the verse, Allah was explaining the signs of His, telling the Christians he a.s is nothing but mortal with no exceptional attribute than the other prophets, and like the other prophets, they are signs of the hour being that the doctrine will be most pronounce.

However, Allah made His plan of DEBUNKING THE CLAIM THROUGH THE COMING OF THE MESSIAH OF THE LAST HOUR. According to the holy Prophet pbuh, the messiah is to break the Cross (refute the arguments not Jesus). HOW DO YOU EXPECT THE MESSIAH TO ACHIEVE THIS REFUTATION WITHOUT DIVINE GUIDANCE FROM ALLAH AND ALSO RECEIVING DIVINE GUIDANCE FROM ALLAH IS ALSO A SYMBOL OF PROPHETHOOD.

You can check back my explanation on DAJJAL above as I said it's an ideology. I'll repost for convenience.

Crescentholm:





**I acknowledge brother, but for the Issue of Tafsir needn't be declared as misplaced or imbalance. As a judge, we have a standard, which is the Quran brother. It's the perfect law when Allah perfected His religion for us so IT IS AND WILL NEVER REMAIN SILENT ON ANY ISSUE OF MAN.
Moreover, none of the tafsir was credited to myself. They are works of respected scholars of faith like Jawsi, Ragib, Tabari etc (may Allah have mercy on them).


ON SURAH AZ-ZUKHRUF, Verse 61:
وَإِنَّهُ لَعِلْمٌ لِّلسَّاعَةِ فَلَا تَمْتَرُنَّ بِهَا وَاتَّبِعُونِ هَٰذَا صِرَاطٌ مُّسْتَقِيمٌ

And lo! verily there is knowledge of the Hour. So doubt ye not concerning it, but follow Me. This is the right path.

Let me make somethings clear brother. Allah is the perfect in all raminifications​, including His creation.

*He created Adam a.s without any support (from parents) while IN OPPOSITE, he creates other human with support of human.

* He created Hawau a.s from a man WHILE IN OPPOSITE, he creates Isa a.s from a woman
etc.

*In the Quran, the mention of daylight equals the number of nights, etc.

There, in the verse, Allah was explaining the signs of His, telling the Christians he a.s is nothing but mortal with no exceptional attribute than the other prophets, and like the other prophets, they are signs of the hour being that the doctrine will be most pronounce.

However, Allah made His plan of DEBUNKING THE CLAIM THROUGH THE COMING OF THE MESSIAH OF THE LAST HOUR. According to the holy Prophet pbuh, the messiah is to break the Cross (refute the arguments not Jesus). HOW DO YOU EXPECT THE MESSIAH TO ACHIEVE THIS REFUTATION WITHOUT DIVINE GUIDANCE FROM ALLAH AND ALSO RECEIVING DIVINE GUIDANCE FROM ALLAH IS ALSO A SYMBOL OF PROPHETHOOD.

You can check back my explanation on DAJJAL above as I said it's an ideology. I'll repost for convenience.

As for DAJJAL,
It's an idea, never a being. The prophet pbuh was giving an analogy to his companions on DAJJAL just like a human, as it's a practice, even in the Quran also where prophecies are related using animals or inanimate objects as analogy.
An example, is where Allah severally likens believers to a person with sight while a disbeliever to a blind. DOES THAT MEAN ALL DISBELIEVERS ARE BLIND?
or where Allah likens a sincere good deeds to a farmer growing on a fertile land while an hypocrite deeds is just like a farmer planting on a rocky surface which washes off when wind blows or during the rain. IS THE DEEDS OF A BELIEVER A FARM OR IT PRODUCE?
In such scenario, Muhammad pbuh likened DAJJAL to a human with a blind right eye, while his left is open (meaning, things/ideology/practices that ignores the good and up take the evil practices). The word DAJJAL is gotten from the Arabic word "DAJALA", Meaning: "DECEPTION". So any practice or ideology that is against the good practices (as enjoined in the Quran and Sunnah) no doubt is deception and it metaphorically closes it's eye at the good and open it toward evil.

Empiree:
No, you do quote correct references but i am afraid that you misplaced tafsir with wrong ayat of Qur'an.



Now let me make few things clear. I understand that muslims from the time of immemorial have ikhtilaf on the issue of the "death" and "return" of nabi Isa (alayhi salam). However, death they attributed to him(as) was that it was Allah who took his soul. This is line of disagreement bcus Quran is silent on how it actually happened. Both pros and cons only come up with theories and evidences at their disposal. Therefore, a muslim should not make takfir of another muslim who believe Isa(as) died i:e Allah took his soul. It is not kufr to say this. But if a muslim believes or makes it part of his aqeeda that nabi Isa's enemies actually crucified and killed him, this is enough to make takfir of kufr bcus the ayah iterate with CERTAINTY that they did not kill him nor crucify him. Even Quraniyoon don't believe he(as) was crucified.



So you need to make your stand clear on this first. It will be timeless efforts that will get us nowhere if we are to continue arguing whether Allah took his soul or not. Scholars differ on it. But the reason later's opinion is stronger is bcus of overwhelming ahadith which is quite difficult to dismiss. Isn't strange that you avoided those ahadith or you simply don't believe them?.. Also, even without hadith, the AYAH OF QURAN WHICH YOU AVOIDED hints us of nabi Isa's return.


So the belief that he did not die and will return in the end time is stronger with clear backings from ahadith. That's what I subscribed to.

PLEASE READ THROUGH PATIENTLY AND WITHOUT PREJUDICE BROTHER. Sorry to say this but it seems you're not reading through my post before making comment, this is because responses to comment shouldnt ask the same question already responded to, but ask questions regarding what is unclear in the responses
Brother, I can't avoid any surah of the holy Quran, because Allah already instructed, 'believe in Him, His Prophets and those in authority over you. But when comes misunderstanding regarding issues, refer it back to Allah (that's the Quran).

For Allah to reference the Quran as a dispute resolution, HOW CAN WE CLAIM THE QURAN REMAIN SILENT ON SOME MATTERS? THIS IS DEROGATORY PLEASE.

I'm also human, so we're bond to forget. Any reference that comes to mind as at when responding, I give it. Apology for oversight if it appears offensive but my other quotations are as clear as daylight.


**ANOTHER MISUNDERSTANDING IS FOUND IN THE VERSE BELOW, INSTEAD OF EXPLAINING IT WITH THE QURAN, SOME SCHOLARS CLAIM ALLAH WAS SILENT ON IT

“And for their saying, `We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of ALLAH;' whereas THEY SLEW HIM NoT, NOR DID THEY BRING ABOUT HIS DEATH UPON THE CROSS, but he was made to appear to them like one crucied; and those who dier therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no certain knowledge thereof, but only pursue a conjecture; and they did not arrive at a certainty concerning it. On the contrary, ALLAH exalted him to Himself. And ALLAH is Mighty, Wise”.

It is absurd to think that one who is neither killed, nor put to death by putting on the Cross has necessarily ascended bodily to heaven.

• Besides, the Arabic words "MAA SALABOOHO" do not deny the fact of Hadhrat Jesus'AS being nailed to the but deny his having died on it as is clear from Arabic lexicon.
Furthermore, the ENGLISH DICTIONARY DEFINE CRUCIFIXION as to EXECUTE (OR KILL) A PERSON by NAILING HIM ON A CROSS.

For example, SALABAL LISSA means, HE CRUCIFIED THE THIEF, i.e., HE PUT HIM TO DEATH IN A CERTAIN WELL-KNOWN MANNER (Lane & Aqrab). In crucifixion one was nailed to a framework made in the form of a cross and, being kept without food and drink, slowly died of pain, hunger, fatigue, and exposure. If the person nailed didn’t die on the cross, he can never be referred to as crucified.

• The words Wa Laakin Shubbiha Lahum in verse 4:158 as claimed that the likeness of Hadhrat Jesus a.s was cast upon another person--Judas or somebody else who was then crucified in place of Hazrat Jesus a.s.
?

Crescentholm:


PLEASE READ THROUGH PATIENTLY AND WITHOUT PREJUDICE BROTHER. Sorry to say this but it seems you're not reading through my post before making comment, this is because responses to comment shouldnt ask the same question already responded to, but ask questions regarding what is unclear in the responses
Brother, I can't avoid any surah of the holy Quran, because Allah already instructed, 'believe in Him, His Prophets and those in authority over you. But when comes misunderstanding regarding issues, refer it back to Allah (that's the Quran).

For Allah to reference the Quran as a dispute resolution, HOW CAN WE CLAIM THE QURAN REMAIN SILENT ON SOME MATTERS? THIS IS DEROGATORY PLEASE.

I'm also human, so we're bond to forget. Any reference that comes to mind as at when responding, I give it. Apology for oversight if it appears offensive but my other quotations are as clear as daylight.


**ANOTHER MISUNDERSTANDING IS FOUND IN THE VERSE BELOW, INSTEAD OF EXPLAINING IT WITH THE QURAN, SOME SCHOLARS CLAIM ALLAH WAS SILENT ON IT

“And for their saying, `We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of ALLAH;' whereas THEY SLEW HIM NoT, NOR DID THEY BRING ABOUT HIS DEATH UPON THE CROSS, but he was made to appear to them like one crucied; and those who dier therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no certain knowledge thereof, but only pursue a conjecture; and they did not arrive at a certainty concerning it. On the contrary, ALLAH exalted him to Himself. And ALLAH is Mighty, Wise”.

It is absurd to think that one who is neither killed, nor put to death by putting on the Cross has necessarily ascended bodily to heaven.

• Besides, the Arabic words "MAA SALABOOHO" do not deny the fact of Hadhrat Jesus'AS being nailed to the but deny his having died on it as is clear from Arabic lexicon.
Furthermore, the ENGLISH DICTIONARY DEFINE CRUCIFIXION as to EXECUTE (OR KILL) A PERSON by NAILING HIM ON A CROSS.

For example, SALABAL LISSA means, HE CRUCIFIED THE THIEF, i.e., HE PUT HIM TO DEATH IN A CERTAIN WELL-KNOWN MANNER (Lane & Aqrab). In crucifixion one was nailed to a framework made in the form of a cross and, being kept without food and drink, slowly died of pain, hunger, fatigue, and exposure. If the person nailed didn’t die on the cross, he can never be referred to as crucified.

• The words Wa Laakin Shubbiha Lahum in verse 4:158 as claimed that the likeness of Hadhrat Jesus a.s was cast upon another person--Judas or somebody else who was then crucified in place of Hazrat Jesus a.s.
?

In explaining the above, first of all, Allah s.w.t is the just JUDGE AND HE ENJOINS JUSTICE on His creation. WHY WOULD SUCH JUST GOD, IN THE NAME of PROTECTING HIS PROPHET CONDEMN AN INNOCENT SOUL TO PUNISHMENT?

Many Prophet’s were severely persecuted, especially, that of Muhammad s.a.w who was persecuted with the handful Muslims for 13years that the believers with him cried loud that when will the help of Allah come (2:214), Allah never raised them to heaven in defense. Musa a.s, his brother a.s and the Isrealite where scared at the red sea, Allah didn’t raise them to himself. Why will do such injustice to his creation in expense of another?

The curious part of it is that there is not only one story that speaks of the casting of the likeness of Hadhrat Jesus A.S, there are several stories. But intelligent commentators like ABU HAYYAAN HAVE DISCARDED ALL such stories.

~ The word SHUBBIHA means, he was made to appear like, or was made to resemble. Now the question arises, who is the person who was made to appear "like one crucified". Clearly it was Hadhrat Jesus A.S whom the Jews tried to crucify or slay. Nobody else can be meant here, for there is absolutely no reference to any other person in the context. The context cannot be twisted as to make room for somebody else of whom no mention at all is made in the verse. To what then was Hadhrat JesusAS made like?

~ The context provides a clear answer to that question. THE JEWS DID NOT KILL HIM BY CRUCIFIXION, but he was made to appear to them like "one crucified", and thus it was THAT THEY WRONGLY TOOK HIM FOR DEAD. It was thus Hadhrat Jesus A.S who was made to resemble "one crucified". This interpretation is not only in perfect harmony with the context but is also clearly borne out by all relevant facts of history.

~ The SECOND MEANING of the expression SHUBBIHA LAHUM is, that "the matter became confused to them." This interpretation is also clearly borne out by history, for, although the Jews asserted that they had put Hadhrat Jesus A.S to death by suspending him on the Cross, they were not sure of it and the circumstances being obscure, the matter had certainly become confused to them. The fact that the Jews themselves were not sure whether Hadhrat JesusAS had actually died on the Cross is supported by the Bible and by all authentic historical facts.

• The Holy Prophet SAW said:
"If Moses and Jesus had been ALIVE, they would have had to believe in me and follow me." (Zurqani, Vol. VI, p. 54, Tibrani Kabeer, Alyawaqeet Wal Jawahir, Vol. II, p. 23)

Crescentholm:


In explaining the above, first of all, Allah s.w.t is the just JUDGE AND HE ENJOINS JUSTICE on His creation. WHY WOULD SUCH JUST GOD, IN THE NAME of PROTECTING HIS PROPHET CONDEMN AN INNOCENT SOUL TO PUNISHMENT?

Many Prophet’s were severely persecuted, especially, that of Muhammad s.a.w who was persecuted with the handful Muslims for 13years that the believers with him cried loud that when will the help of Allah come (2:214), Allah never raised them to heaven in defense. Musa a.s, his brother a.s and the Isrealite where scared at the red sea, Allah didn’t raise them to himself. Why will do such injustice to his creation in expense of another?

The curious part of it is that there is not only one story that speaks of the casting of the likeness of Hadhrat Jesus A.S, there are several stories. But intelligent commentators like ABU HAYYAAN HAVE DISCARDED ALL such stories.

~ The word SHUBBIHA means, he was made to appear like, or was made to resemble. Now the question arises, who is the person who was made to appear "like one crucified". Clearly it was Hadhrat Jesus A.S whom the Jews tried to crucify or slay. Nobody else can be meant here, for there is absolutely no reference to any other person in the context. The context cannot be twisted as to make room for somebody else of whom no mention at all is made in the verse. To what then was Hadhrat JesusAS made like?

~ The context provides a clear answer to that question. THE JEWS DID NOT KILL HIM BY CRUCIFIXION, but he was made to appear to them like "one crucified", and thus it was THAT THEY WRONGLY TOOK HIM FOR DEAD. It was thus Hadhrat Jesus A.S who was made to resemble "one crucified". This interpretation is not only in perfect harmony with the context but is also clearly borne out by all relevant facts of history.

~ The SECOND MEANING of the expression SHUBBIHA LAHUM is, that "the matter became confused to them." This interpretation is also clearly borne out by history, for, although the Jews asserted that they had put Hadhrat Jesus A.S to death by suspending him on the Cross, they were not sure of it and the circumstances being obscure, the matter had certainly become confused to them. The fact that the Jews themselves were not sure whether Hadhrat JesusAS had actually died on the Cross is supported by the Bible and by all authentic historical facts.

• The Holy Prophet SAW said:
"If Moses and Jesus had been ALIVE, they would have had to believe in me and follow me." (Zurqani, Vol. VI, p. 54, Tibrani Kabeer, Alyawaqeet Wal Jawahir, Vol. II, p. 23)

In addendum, let me give you some close evidences (just like my previous ones, are related from very close companions of the prophet pbuh)

The holy prophet s.a.w, During his last illness, said to his daughter Hadhrat Fatima ra:

"Once in every year, Gabriel recited the Quran to me. This year he recited twice. He also told me that every succeeding prophet has lived to half the age of his predecessor. He told me that Jesus, son of Mary, lived to 120 years. Therefore, I think, I may live to about 60 years." (Mawahib-ud-Duniya by Qastalani, Vol. I, p. 42, Kanzul Ummal Vol. 6, p. 160)

In one of his writing, IMAM MALIK R.H said Jesus had died. (Majma Biharul Anwar, Vol. I, p. 286)

Crescentholm:

It is absurd to think that one who is neither killed, nor put to death by putting on the Cross has necessarily ascended bodily to heaven.

• Besides, the Arabic words "MAA SALABOOHO" do not deny the fact of Hadhrat Jesus'AS being nailed to the but deny his having died on it as is clear from Arabic lexicon.
Furthermore, the ENGLISH DICTIONARY DEFINE CRUCIFIXION as to EXECUTE (OR KILL) A PERSON by NAILING HIM ON A CROSS.

For example, SALABAL LISSA means, HE CRUCIFIED THE THIEF, i.e., HE PUT HIM TO DEATH IN A CERTAIN WELL-KNOWN MANNER (Lane & Aqrab). In crucifixion one was nailed to a framework made in the form of a cross and, being kept without food and drink, slowly died of pain, hunger, fatigue, and exposure. If the person nailed didn’t die on the cross, he can never be referred to as crucified.

• The words Wa Laakin Shubbiha Lahum in verse 4:158 as claimed that the likeness of Hadhrat Jesus a.s was cast upon another person--Judas or somebody else who was then crucified in place of Hazrat Jesus a.s.
?

I dont get the point you are trying to raise in your write here. Clarify yourself please. @bold, i no longer believe in the theory of substitution.

Empiree:
I dont get the point you are trying to raise in your write here. Clarify yourself please. @bold, i no longer believe in the theory of substitution.

AS MUSLIMS, WE'RE TO BELIEVE IN ALL HEAVENLY BOOKS.

THE BIBLE CLEARLY STATES that he a.s was put on the cross in the 6th hour and was put in the 9th because of the Sabath day (which was the following day. No one must hang till the Sabath).

It further stated that due to inspiration of God to Pontias Pilate's wife of Jesus pbuh innocence, Pilate well planned the crucifiction to save Jesus pbuh.

At the 9th hour, when he a.s was brought down with the other thieves, HIS A.S SIDE WAS PIERCED WITH A SPEAR AND "BLOOD AND WATER GUSHED FORTH" (which according to science / cardiologist shows he a.s was still alive, because the heart stops pumping and circulating blood as soon as the person dies).

To hasten death during crucifiction, the limbs are usually broken, but the limb of the 2 other person crucified with him a.s was broken except his. Afterwards, he a.s was handed to someone to take to a secret tomb, WHERE OINTMENT AND OTHER THINGS THAT WILL HELP HIM a.s HEAL FAST WAS APPLIED TO HIS WOUND.

the quran says "THEY KILL HIM NOT NOR CRUCIFY HIM..."

To Kill someone is usually applied to ONLY HUMAN TO HUMAN RELATION. When the death of someone comes about either deliberately or not, by another person. If it's purely natural, it's better said that Allah took his soul.

Allah already said they intend to kill him (because it's the tradition of the wicked to seek to persecute and kill their prophets), BUT ALLAH ALREADY PROMISED ISA a.s that He WILL BRING ABOUT HIS DEATH HIMSELF ("...inni mutawafeeka warafiuka illaiya...".

So the plot of killing Isa a.s didn't work out because HE A.S WAS BROUGHT DOWN ALIVE.

BACK TO CRUCIFIXION.
According to the dictionary, it MEANS TO KILL SOMEONE ON THE CROSS.

So if the person was nailed BUT DIDN'T DIE, CRUCIFIXION IS NOT ACHIEVED.

An example is a person who was hit by a car. If he dies immediately, IT IS SAID HE DIED OF ACCIDENT. BUT if he survived and later die years later peacefully, IT CAN NEVER BE SAID HE DIED OF ACCIDENT.

*** IF ISA A.S DIDN'T DIE ON THE CROSS (i.e CRUCIFIXION) AND WASN'T KILLED BY THE JEWS, CAN'T HE DIE PEACEFUL AS ALLAH ALREADY PROMISED HIM? (Because Allah never in the Quran promised to take him a.s. bodily to heaven.

Empiree:
I dont get the point you are trying to raise in your write here. Clarify yourself please. @bold, i no longer believe in the theory of substitution.

The explanation was already stated above Brother, but will re post it:

Substitution will clearly amount to Injustice in the part of Allah (astagfurullah). Because an innocent will be put to shame and punished in place of the guilty. BOTH THE QURAN AND BIBLE DISTINCTLY CLARIFY THIS FACT OF HIS SURVIVAL ON THE CROSS

In explaining the above, first of all, Allah s.w.t is the just JUDGE AND HE ENJOINS JUSTICE on His creation. WHY WOULD SUCH JUST GOD, IN THE NAME of PROTECTING HIS PROPHET CONDEMN AN INNOCENT SOUL TO PUNISHMENT?

Many Prophet’s were severely persecuted, especially, that of Muhammad s.a.w who was persecuted with the handful Muslims for 13years that the believers with him cried loud that when will the help of Allah come (2:214), Allah never raised them to heaven in defense. Musa a.s, his brother a.s and the Isrealite where scared at the red sea, Allah didn’t raise them to himself. Why will do such injustice to his creation in expense of another?

The curious part of it is that there is not only one story that speaks of the casting of the likeness of Hadhrat Jesus A.S, there are several stories. But intelligent commentators like ABU HAYYAAN HAVE DISCARDED ALL such stories.

~ The word SHUBBIHA means, he was made to appear like, or was made to resemble. Now the question arises, who is the person who was made to appear "like one crucified". Clearly it was Hadhrat Jesus A.S whom the Jews tried to crucify or slay. Nobody else can be meant here, for there is absolutely no reference to any other person in the context. The context cannot be twisted as to make room for somebody else of whom no mention at all is made in the verse. To what then was Hadhrat JesusAS made like?

~ The context provides a clear answer to that question. THE JEWS DID NOT KILL HIM BY CRUCIFIXION, but he was made to appear to them like "one crucified", and thus it was THAT THEY WRONGLY TOOK HIM FOR DEAD. It was thus Hadhrat Jesus A.S who was made to resemble "one crucified". This interpretation is not only in perfect harmony with the context but is also clearly borne out by all relevant facts of history.

~ The SECOND MEANING of the expression SHUBBIHA LAHUM is, that "the matter became confused to them." This interpretation is also clearly borne out by history, for, although the Jews asserted that they had put Hadhrat Jesus A.S to death by suspending him on the Cross, they were not sure of it and the circumstances being obscure, the matter had certainly become confused to them. The fact that the Jews themselves were not sure whether Hadhrat JesusAS had actually died on the Cross is supported by the Bible and by all authentic historical facts.

• The Holy Prophet SAW said:
"If Moses and Jesus had been ALIVE, they would have had to believe in me and follow me." (Zurqani, Vol. VI, p. 54, Tibrani Kabeer, Alyawaqeet Wal Jawahir, Vol. II, p. 23)

Crescentholm:



First of all, which Mosque where you told the Ahmad's visit as pilgrimage in Qadian?

That's also part of the Injustice without verification that I quoted from 5:8.

If the first Hadith support your claim, what of the following one reported by Ummul Muminin, Ayesha r.a.

Hazrat Ayesha, Allah be pleased with her, has narrated that, "SAY HE, i.e. THE HOLY PROPHET, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, verily IS THE SEAL OF Prophets BUT SAY NOT THAT THERE IS NO PROPHET AFTER HIM." Hazrat Abu Abdur Rahman Assalmiyye narrates that he used to teach Hazrat Hasan and Husain (Allah be pleased with them). Once Hazrat Ali bin Abu Talib, Allah be pleased with him, passed nearby him while he was teaching them, so he said to him, 'Teach them KhatamanNabiyyeen with voval a: on Ta. (Durr e Manthoor Vol. 5, Page 386)

Maybe an analysis (tafsir) of notable and respected scholars of faith who are not Ahmadiyya will suffice and hopefully you review your grands Kufr as Muhammad pbuh was reported to have said anyone who declares the other as kafir ignorantly will assume that position in the presence of Allah.

“The word KHATAM refers to a seal which is stamped on clay or paper”. The explanation of Imam Raghib further supports Ahmadi Muslims. Imam Raghib states
lingustic usage of the word Al-Khatmu and At-Tab’u is two fold. Firstly the words Khatamtu and Taba’tu are used in the infinitive form of the verb, i.e., to produce the affect of something, for example to imprint the image of a seal or ring. Secondly, the emblem which is left behind by the impression of a seal. If we are to presume a meaning of “hindrance” which is produced in the context of placing a seal upon doors or letters, sometimes it is used to firmly bind or prevent something (as a secondary meaning); as Allah states, Khatamallahu ala Qalubihim and khatama ‘ala sam’ihi wa qalbihi. Then, as an impression the word is used in the context of producing the affect of something. And sometimes the meaning of “reaching the end” is also inferred by this word, as it is said Khatamul Qur’an i.e I have reached the end of it” (Mufridatul Qur’an, By Imam Raghib, under the root of Khatama)

Imam Raghib also states in regards to this ayah “Because he brought an end to law-bearing prophethood, i.e with his coming he completed it” The proof which shows Imam Raghib meant law bearing prophethood is because he used the words al-nubuwwah with the definite article which signifies a specific type.

Imam Raghib further states “He completed prophethood with his advent”.
It is true that other Qirat have used the word Khatim but these are all subordinate to the Qirat of the Holy Prophet Muhammadsaw. If we take the literal meaning of the other Qirat it would suggest that the Holy Prophet Muhammadsaw brought all the prophets to an end and no prophets can appear after him. This itself would not make sense as the Holy Prophet.


* This was further expatiated by Hazrat Sayyad Abdul Karim Jilani, where he wrote that:-
'The coming of the Law-bearing prophets, after the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, has ceased as HE HAS BEEN EXALTED to be the 'Khataman Nabiyyeen.' (Al Insan ul Kamil Page 115).

* Hazrat Imam Mohyuddin Ibne Arbi Has Written: The Prophethood that terminated with the person of the Prophet of Allah, peace be on him and His blessings, was no other than the law-bearing prophethood not prophethood itself and this is the meaning of his 'Verily apostleship and prophethood ceased with me Therefore there shall be after me neither an apostle nor a prophet i.e. there shall not be after me a prophet with a law other than mine but that he shall be subject to my law." (AlFatuhat ulMakiyya vol 2 page 3)

* Hazrat Imam Abdul Wahab Sha'rani says:- "Let it be known that the order of prophethood has not totaly ceased; it is the law - bearing prophethood which has discontinued." Then while explaining the Hadith LA NABIYYA BA'DI and LAA RASOOLA BA'DI expounded that THERE SHALL BE NO LAW-BEARING PROPHET after him. (Alyawaqit Wal Jewahir Vol.2, Page:39)

* Furthermore, Allama Abul Fadhl Shihabuddin ASSAYYAD Mahmud says in his commentary on the Holy Quran:- the tradition, that there is no revelation after me is absurd. The notion that Gabrael will not descend to the earth after the demise of the Holy Prophet, peace and blesssings of Allah be upon him, has no foundation at all ..... Most probably what is meant by the negation of revelation regarding Isa, peace be on him, after his descent is the revelation of the Law, but what has been described, is the revelation without the Law. (Rooh ulmaani Vol 21, Page 41

®Another visible evidence was when the son of the prophet(pbuh), Hazhrat Ibrahim, died;

®Hazrat Ibn Abbas, Allah be pleased with him, relates, that when Ibrahim, the son of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, died, he prayed and said: Verily, he has a wetnurse in Paradise, and HAD HE LIVED, HE WOULD HAVE CERTAINLY BEEN A RIGHTEOUS PROPHET. (Sunan Ibn e Majah, Vol: 1, Page:474).

Well, those hadiths of Aisha and Ibn Abbas are fabricated and you will have to give us an authentic Isnaad for them or else you would have slandered them. By the way why don't you also accept the hadith about UMAR RA where the Rasul (SAW) is reported to have said '.....if there would be any Prophet after me it will be Umar, but there is no Prophet after me..... ' which has an issue with its Isnad. Or is it that you choose the Hadith to accept and reject in order to deceive naive or people with little Islamic knowledge about your beliefs.
It is obvious that you are a fully practicing and proselytizing Ahmadi as such it will be very difficult or impossible to reason with you to amend your beliefs.
Also, who are the best to know about the interpretations, implications and context of revelation of verses of the Qur'an or Hadith.
Is it the Companions who lived it and who the Qur'an will come down regarding things that were then happening in their daily lives or a man who came in the 19th century and whose family has been known historically as spies and stooges for the British. A man who was against the Muslims fighting Jihad but whose family sent assistance to the British during the Indian Mutiny. A man who wrote several times to the British affirming his allegiance to them. A man who collected a yearly salary from the British.

Empiree:
I dont get the point you are trying to raise in your write here. Clarify yourself please. @bold, i no longer believe in the theory of substitution.

AS MUSLIMS, WE'RE TO BELIEVE IN ALL HEAVENLY BOOKS.

THE BIBLE CLEARLY STATES that he a.s was put on the cross in the 6th hour and was put down in the 9th because of the Sabath day (which was the following day. No one must hang till the Sabath).

It further stated that due to inspiration of God to Pontias Pilate's wife of Jesus pbuh innocence, Pilate well planned the crucifiction to save Jesus pbuh.

At the 9th hour, when he a.s was brought down with the other thieves, HIS A.S SIDE WAS PIERCED WITH A SPEAR AND "BLOOD AND WATER GUSHED FORTH" (which according to science / cardiologist shows he a.s was still alive, because the heart stops pumping and circulating blood as soon as the person dies).

To hasten death during crucifiction, the limbs are usually broken, but the limb of the 2 other person crucified with him a.s was broken except his. Afterwards, he a.s was handed to someone to take to a secret tomb, WHERE OINTMENT AND OTHER THINGS THAT WILL HELP HIM a.s HEAL FAST WAS APPLIED TO HIS WOUND.

The quran says "THEY KILL HIM NOT NOR CRUCIFY HIM..."

To Kill someone is usually applied to ONLY HUMAN TO HUMAN RELATION. When the death of someone comes about either deliberately or not, by another person. If it's purely natural, it's better said that Allah took his soul.

Allah already said they intend to kill him (because it's the tradition of the wicked to seek to persecute and kill their prophets), BUT ALLAH ALREADY PROMISED ISA a.s that He WILL BRING ABOUT HIS DEATH HIMSELF ("...inni mutawafeeka warafiuka illaiya..."


So the plot of killing Isa a.s didn't work out because HE A.S WAS BROUGHT DOWN ALIVE.
BACK TO CRUCIFIXION.

According to the dictionary, it MEANS TO KILL SOMEONE ON THE CROSS.
So if the person was nailed BUT DIDN'T DIE, CRUCIFIXION IS NOT ACHIEVED.

An example is a person who was hit by a car. If he dies immediately, IT IS SAID HE DIED OF ACCIDENT. BUT if he survived and later die years later peacefully, IT CAN NEVER BE SAID HE DIED OF ACCIDENT.


*** IF ISA A.S DIDN'T DIE ON THE CROSS (i.e CRUCIFIXION) AND WASN'T KILLED BY THE JEWS, CAN'T HE DIE PEACEFUL AS ALLAH ALREADY PROMISED HIM? (Because Allah never in the Quran promised to take him a.s. bodily to heaven.

Empiree:

Now let me make few things clear. I understand that muslims from the time of immemorial have ikhtilaf on the issue of the "death" and "return" of nabi Isa (alayhi salam). However, death they attributed to him(as) was that it was Allah who took his soul. This is line of disagreement bcus Quran is silent on how it actually happened. Both pros and cons only come up with theories and evidences at their disposal. Therefore, a muslim should not make takfir of another muslim who believe Isa(as) died i:e Allah took his soul. It is not kufr to say this.

# I agree with you. Sometimes, due to lack of evidences, I believe Nabi Isa might have later died. And IF he's gonna come back, Is Allah not powerful to raise him back from dead in a process called Raj'ah? Qur'an talks A LOT about this process.
www.nairaland.com/2287786/concept-al-rajah-return-quran-sunnah

Empiree:

What's even strange to me is that, many of those who don't believe in the eventual return of nabi Isa(as), believe in appearance of Dajjal. This makes me wonder where exactly is their stance?. We all know Dajjal is 100% evil. When he finally arrives in human form, he would terrorize believers to the point of forcing people to worship him. But his traits precedes his [khuruj]. My question to those who reject the return of Jesus is, are we gonna be in that damnation and age of fitan forever without divine intervention?.. If Dajjal is to come the implication is their will definitely be divine intervention which is Nabi Isa Ibn Mary'am (alaih salaam).

# Jesus returning back?! As what? A prophet? For what purpose exactly?Nabi Muhammad is the last Prophet and Messenger sent to mankind. Islam and its teachings which is to remain till end of days is enough to protect mankind from whatever evil that will come at akhir zaman (last days)

# @underlined, first I do not believe in the so-called Dajjal and its characteristics. However, if the alleged beast do come, is it the responsibility of Nabi Isa to save mankind from it? Now that seems to me the theory of those who believe in the alleged purpose of Nabi Isa on his "second coming". These people placed so much emphasis on Nabi Isa's alleged second coming that they totally forgot about Imam al-Mahdi. Hadith on the later is widely reported (Mutawattir) and more reasonable and more aligned with Islamic beliefs than the former.


# Interestingly, some of those ahadith and athar clearly introduced Imam al-Mahdi as "sahibu zaman - master of the age" that even Nabi Isa will have to take commands from him. So, why all the fuss about Nabi Isa and not al-Mahdi?


# It is also worth mentioning that the scholars of Salafiyyah made it as part of Aqeedah that not believing in al-Mahdi is KUFR; but none of them says the same to dajjal or return of Nabi Isa.

Empiree:

So the belief that he did not die and will return in the end time is stronger with clear backings from ahadith. That's what I subscribed to.

Nah! Ahadith are very obscure about his "not die". The epilogue of "he was not killed and not crucified" is only within the specific period of the Jewish plot. Afterwards, Qur'an and ahadith are silent on the issue. The rest of Nabi Isa's stories are speculations and theories with no certainty.

Crescentholm:



AS MUSLIMS, WE'RE TO BELIEVE IN ALL HEAVENLY BOOKS.

THE BIBLE CLEARLY STATES that he a.s was put on the cross in the 6th hour and was put down in the 9th because of the Sabath day (which was the following day. No one must hang till the Sabath).

It further stated that due to inspiration of God to Pontias Pilate's wife of Jesus pbuh innocence, Pilate well planned the crucifiction to save Jesus pbuh.

At the 9th hour, when he a.s was brought down with the other thieves, HIS A.S SIDE WAS PIERCED WITH A SPEAR AND "BLOOD AND WATER GUSHED FORTH" (which according to science / cardiologist shows he a.s was still alive, because the heart stops pumping and circulating blood as soon as the person dies).

To hasten death during crucifiction, the limbs are usually broken, but the limb of the 2 other person crucified with him a.s was broken except his. Afterwards, he a.s was handed to someone to take to a secret tomb, WHERE OINTMENT AND OTHER THINGS THAT WILL HELP HIM a.s HEAL FAST WAS APPLIED TO HIS WOUND.

The quran says "THEY KILL HIM NOT NOR CRUCIFY HIM..."

To Kill someone is usually applied to ONLY HUMAN TO HUMAN RELATION. When the death of someone comes about either deliberately or not, by another person. If it's purely natural, it's better said that Allah took his soul.

Allah already said they intend to kill him (because it's the tradition of the wicked to seek to persecute and kill their prophets), BUT ALLAH ALREADY PROMISED ISA a.s that He WILL BRING ABOUT HIS DEATH HIMSELF ("...inni mutawafeeka warafiuka illaiya..."


So the plot of killing Isa a.s didn't work out because HE A.S WAS BROUGHT DOWN ALIVE.
BACK TO CRUCIFIXION.

According to the dictionary, it MEANS TO KILL SOMEONE ON THE CROSS.
So if the person was nailed BUT DIDN'T DIE, CRUCIFIXION IS NOT ACHIEVED.

An example is a person who was hit by a car. If he dies immediately, IT IS SAID HE DIED OF ACCIDENT. BUT if he survived and later die years later peacefully, IT CAN NEVER BE SAID HE DIED OF ACCIDENT.


*** IF ISA A.S DIDN'T DIE ON THE CROSS (i.e CRUCIFIXION) AND WASN'T KILLED BY THE JEWS, CAN'T HE DIE PEACEFUL AS ALLAH ALREADY PROMISED HIM? (Because Allah never in the Quran promised to take him a.s. bodily to heaven.

interesting as you are expressing your view. I have heard this before. But your view is not clear. If i understood you right, you are saying that he survived crucifixion and was brought down?. Fine.


The problem is with that theory is, if indeed he was nailed but was brought down and he later died, if the people present at the event are confused about whereabout of his soul, are they also confused about his wounded body?. Where is the body? . If he was buried, archeologists could have unearthed him by now.


Many attempts were made but only to later tell us it was not his remains. So far your position is inclear. Far as i am concerned, when Quran says balrafaAllahu ilai this is understood to mean he was airlifted by Allah (body and soul). That's where their conjectures come in. They shouldn't be confused about his whereabout after been brought down. That's where I told you Quran is silent on exactly how it happened but you insist Quran isn't silent. If Quran isn't silent, why then you had to bring Biblical account info this? .


Silence of Quran only meant for Muslims to exercise our intellect. So again, flaw in your theory is that his body's whereabout is questionable. If you can not specify what happened to his body, then my position that he was air lifted (body and soul) is the correct understanding.

AlBaqir:
# Jesus returning back?! As what? A prophet? For what purpose exactly?Nabi Muhammad is the last Prophet and Messenger sent to mankind. Islam and its teachings which is to remain till end of days is enough to protect mankind from whatever evil that will come at akhir zaman (last days)

Since mission of Dajjal is to impersonate him(as), it was necessary for his return.

AlBaqir:
# @underlined, first I do not believe in the so-called Dajjal and its characteristics. However, if the alleged beast do come, is it the responsibility of Nabi Isa to save mankind from it? Now that seems to me the theory of those who believe in the alleged purpose of Nabi Isa on his "second coming". These people placed so much emphasis on Nabi Isa's alleged second coming that they totally forgot about Imam al-Mahdi. Hadith on the later is widely reported (Mutawattir) and more reasonable and more aligned with Islamic beliefs than the former.

Dajjal, both nabi Isa and Mahdi(as) are mutawatir. Majority muslims believe both. They only give credence more to Isa(as). And their functions are different but identical. Imam Mahdi is political leader while nabi Isa(as) is spiritual leader. This is proper way to put it.


This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Abu Hurairah that I heard the Prophet said:: 'What will be your condition when the son of Mary will come down to you and your Imam will be from amongst you'


I am quite aware that appearance of Imam Mahdi(as) is given priority over nabi Isa(as). That's irrelevant. The reason we gave priority to nabi Isa is bcus he acount is detailed in the Qur'an. So we turned to Quran first. Besides, Imam Mahdi appearance comes first.

AlBaqir:
# Interestingly, some of those ahadith and athar clearly introduced Imam al-Mahdi as "sahibu zaman - master of the age" that even Nabi Isa will have to take commands from him. So, why all the fuss about Nabi Isa and not al-Mahdi?

It is about Quran versus hadith. Quran sits in judgment.

Crescentholm:
The prophet pbuh was giving an analogy to his companions on DAJJAL just like a human, as it's a practice, even in the Quran also where prophecies are related using animals or inanimate objects as analogy.
An example, is where Allah severally likens believers to a person with sight while a disbeliever to a blind. DOES THAT MEAN ALL DISBELIEVERS ARE BLIND?
or where Allah likens a sincere good deeds to a farmer growing on a fertile land while an hypocrite deeds is just like a farmer planting on a rocky surface which washes off when wind blows or during the rain. IS THE DEEDS OF A BELIEVER A FARM OR IT PRODUCE?
In such scenario, Muhammad pbuh likened DAJJAL to a human with a blind right eye, while his left is open (meaning, things/ideology/practices that ignores the good and up take the evil practices). The word DAJJAL is gotten from the Arabic word "DAJALA", Meaning: "DECEPTION". So any practice or ideology that is against the good practices (as enjoined in the Quran and Sunnah) no doubt is deception and it metaphorically closes it's eye at the good and open it toward evil.

I am not argueing this. I know about Dajjal symbolism. That's not my point. There are SPECIFIC descriptions suggesting human attributes

Crescentholm:
As for DAJJAL, It's an idea, never a being.

Now, this look like "idea" to you?.



Sahih Muslim > The Book Pertaining to the Turmoil and Portents of the Last Hour :-


In the lengthy hadeeth narrated by al-Nawwaas ibn Sam’aan (may Allaah be pleased with him) it says: the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) mentioned the Dajjaal one morning. Sometimes he described him as insignificant and sometimes he described him as so significant that we thought that he was in the cluster of date-palm trees…” One of the features of the Dajjaal that he described was: “He will be a young man with very curly hair, with his eye floating. It is as if he looks like ‘Abd al-‘Uzza ibn Qatan.”


(Muslim English reference : Book 41, Hadith 7015;Muslim Arabic reference : Book 55, Hadith 7559)


Highlighted is not tawil. They are literal unlike other features.

From my understanding I don't believe Ahamadiyya are Muslims. Their principles and ideologies goes against basic principles of Islam

Empiree:
Since mission of Dajjal is to impersonate him(as), it was necessary for his return.

# First, Whose theory is that? It is neither stated in the Qur'an nor Hadith. And you see some Hadith using the word "masih Dajjal (Antichrist)". Therefore, the so-called theory of impersonation of Christ. Those ahadith are nothing but forged ahadith. Soon I might open a thread or share with you some ahadith documents of how Christian and Jewish converts into Islam at the time of Abu Hurairah and the likes had serious influence on various ahadith smuggling their beliefs into Islamic beliefs and polluting it.


# Second, lets assume that thinking is correct, Nabi Isa does not need to return to clear himself. Islam, being the last faith on earth, is enough to do that. That is one of the purposes of the Quran, Nabi and the last Khalifah of Nabi on earth (al-Mahdi). Saying Nabi Isa will come back for such purpose rubbish several verses of the Qur'an that have already cleared his name and personality. And Qur'an says on Qiyamat, Nabi Isa will also clear his name of all impersonations.

Empiree:

Dajjal, both nabi Isa and Mahdi(as) are mutawatir. Majority muslims believe both. They only give credence more to Isa(as). And their functions are different but identical. Imam Mahdi is political leader while nabi Isa(as) is spiritual leader. This is proper way to put it.


This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Abu Hurairah that I heard the Prophet said:: 'What will be your condition when the son of Mary will come down to you and your Imam will be from amongst you'

# There is no separation between politics and spirituality in Islam. Nabi practised both. He was the Islamic political leader as well as its spiritual leader. Besides, if Nabi Isa is assumed to be spiritual leader, why there exist a Hadith that says Nabi Isa will pray behind Imam al-Mahdi? Salat is the most spiritual significance of Islam.

# The literal characteristics of Dajjal as spelt out in some so-called sahih ahadith, am afraid is myth to me. Today, various scholars (even including Sheik Imran) have tried to interpret it away from those bogus diagrammatic details of a beast.

Empiree:

I am quite aware that appearance of Imam Mahdi(as) is given priority over nabi Isa(as). That's irrelevant. The reason we gave priority to nabi Isa is bcus he acount is detailed in the Qur'an. So we turned to Quran first. Besides, Imam Mahdi appearance comes first.
It is about Quran versus hadith. Quran sits in judgment.

# @underline: rather should be given priority.

# And how can you say it is irrelevant? Al-Mahdi represents nothing but Nabi Muhammad and Islam, both of which are far more important and greater in all ramification especially from its inception till Qiyamat, than Nabi Isa (if at all he's coming back).

# Which account of Nabi Isa are you talking about that it is detailed in the Qur'an? Do you mean his "second coming"?
If it is just details about his birth, mother, message, miracle till Jewish plot against him, am sorry none of that support the theory of his "second coming or responsibility then".

^
I have said there are symbolical characteristics of Dajjal. You can't refute that due to obvious and physical evidences. But there are also physical characteristics (human features) as well which you can not refute either until his khuruj. So all his symbolic characters will manifest before our eyes except for those who take them literally.


However you need to clarify you stance whether you believe in Dajjal itself (not as human, not by symbolic features either). Just Dajjal a agent of fitna?. If you believe that, it is no longer matter whether is characteristics are literal or symbolic.

Empiree:
interesting as you are expressing your view. I have heard this before. But your view is not clear. If i understood you right, you are saying that he survived crucifixion and was brought down?. Fine.


The problem is with that theory is, if indeed he was nailed but was brought down and he later died, if the people present at the event are confused about whereabout of his soul, are they also confused about his wounded body?. Where is the body? . If he was buried, archeologists could have unearthed him by now.
.

WHERE IS THE BODY?

Brother, it’s no doubt that the basis Christianity is the THE DEATH AND ASCENSION OF JESUS a.s, though the Bible testifies to seeing him a.s shortly after crucifixion but he a.s later disappeared and THE FALASY OF ASCENSION CAME IN. It is reasonable to believe that Jesus a.s absconded to evade the second arrest if news of his whereabouts become known to his enemies just as Muhammad pbuh abscond from Mecca.

No doubt the Quran testifies to many prophets sent by Allah. Only the parts /aspect of the lives OF SOME OF THEM that seems important that was related in the Quran.

AS REGARDS ARCHEOLOGY FACTS, THERE ARE MANY THAT POINTS TO THE MOVEMENT OF JESUS a.s AFTER THE INCIDENT OF THE CROSS. Though I misplaced some, but Insha’Allah, I should be able to remember some.
* The essene brothers (or the 3 scrolls)
* The shroud of Turin
* Also a BBC documentary on the Tomb of Jesus (You can get that on YouTube).
* Jesus lived in India by Holger Kersten:
* The Crucifixion of Christ: A Fact, not Fiction by John Gilchrist.
* Jesus Christ did not Die on the Cross – A Cardiologist’s Perspective by Professor M M H Nuri

That’s what I can remember presently.

Empiree:



Silence of Quran only meant for Muslims to exercise our intellect. So again, flaw in your theory is that his body's whereabout is questionable. If you can not specify what happened to his body, then my position that he was air lifted (body and soul) is the correct understanding.

IS THE QURAN TRULY TRULY SILENT ON THE DEATH OF JESUS?

“WamaWama Muhammadun I’ll rosul. Qad khalat min qablihi roosul…”
Meaning:

“Muhammad is nothing but a messenger. All other Messengers have passed on before him…”

These verse clearly states that all Messengers before Muhammad pbuh, as at his pbuh lifetime, ARE ALL DEAD (including Isa).

Surah An-Nahl, Verse 20:
وَالَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ لَا يَخْلُقُونَ شَيْئًا وَهُمْ يُخْلَقُونَ

Now those beings that some people invoke beside God cannot create anything, since they themselves are but created:

Surah An-Nahl, Verse 21:
أَمْوَاتٌ غَيْرُ أَحْيَاءٍ وَمَا يَشْعُرُونَ أَيَّانَ يُبْعَثُونَ

they are all dead, not living, and they do not [even] know when they will be raised from the dead!

**As at the time these verses above was revealed to the holy Prophet pbuh, Isa a.s was among the being associated with Allah, and so is dead as Allah declared without ambiguity.

Empiree:


Many attempts were made but only to later tell us it was not his remains. So far your position is inclear. Far as i am concerned, when Quran says balrafaAllahu ilai this is understood to mean he was airlifted by Allah (body and soul). That's where their conjectures come in. They shouldn't be confused about his whereabout after been brought down. That's where I told you Quran is silent on exactly how it happened but you insist Quran isn't silent. If Quran isn't silent, why then you had to bring Biblical account info this? .


.

Surah Al-Mursalat, Verse 25& 26
أَلَمْ نَجْعَلِ الْأَرْضَ كِفَاتًا
أَحْيَاءً وَأَمْوَاتًا
Have We not made the earth (as a place) to draw together for the living and the dead,

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 55:
إِذْ قَالَ اللَّهُ يَا عِيسَىٰ إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا وَجَاعِلُ الَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوكَ فَوْقَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا إِلَىٰ يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ ثُمَّ إِلَيَّ مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَأَحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ فِيمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ

Lo! God said: "O Jesus! Verily, I shall cause thee to die, and shall exalt thee unto Me, and cleanse thee of [the presence of] those who are bent on denying the truth; and I shall place those who follow thee [far] above those who are bent on denying the truth, unto the Day of Resurrection. Then, unto Me will be the return..”

**In the above, Allah promised to KILL HIM FIRST BEFORE EXALTING HIM (i.e raising the soul as expected of every dead person). He didn’t say I’ll raise you before killing!!!

Surah An-Nisa, Verse 158:
بَل رَّفَعَهُ اللَّهُ إِلَيْهِ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ عَزِيزًا حَكِيمًا
nay, God exalted him unto Himself - and God is indeed almighty, wise.

RAFA'A (EXALT or ASCENSION?)

According to the English lexicon, “Exalt” is
From Old French exalter, from Latin exaltare
1- (transitive) TO HONOR; TO HOLD IN HIGH ESTEEM.
They exalted their queen.
2- TO RAISE IN RANK, STATUS ., to elevate.
The man was exalted from a humble carpenter to a minister.

ASCENSION.

Where is Allah?

For scholars who believe in his a.s bodily ascent because the question then arises as to where was God when He raised Jesus(as) to Himself? Was He not present where Jesus(as) was? Does God not occupy the entire universe? Was God not above Jesus(as), below Jesus(as), to the right of him and to the left of him? It is a fact that nobody can move to God as God is not a body. Bodies can only move in the direction of bodies. This is an inviolable law.

Prophet Ibrahim a.s said in Surah As-Saaffat, Verse 99:
He said: "I will go to my Lord! He will surely guide me!
Is there any fact in history that point to Ibrahim a.s climbing or flying to heaven?
Allah says in the Quran that
• if we're 2,He'll be the third, and of we're 3,He'll be the fourth
• That means Allah is everywhere and the fact that Isa a.s is with Him contradicts the Quran and reasoning (as no place is devoid of His presence).


All Messengers have always been a victim of reject from the beginning of time as testified to below:
Surah Ghafir, Verse 34:
وَلَقَدْ جَاءَكُمْ يُوسُفُ مِن قَبْلُ بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ فَمَا زِلْتُمْ فِي شَكٍّ مِّمَّا جَاءَكُم بِهِ حَتَّىٰ إِذَا هَلَكَ قُلْتُمْ لَن يَبْعَثَ اللَّهُ مِن بَعْدِهِ رَسُولًا كَذَٰلِكَ يُضِلُّ اللَّهُ مَنْ هُوَ مُسْرِفٌ مُّرْتَابٌ

“And verily Joseph brought you of old clear proofs, yet ye ceased not to be in doubt concerning what he brought you till, when he died, ye said: Allah will not send any messenger after him…”

So if the intention of scholars to bring Isa a.s back to the scene is because he a.s was rejected is a bit shallow and doesn’t conform with the Sunnah of God as stated above.

Empiree:
^

However you need to clarify you stance whether you believe in Dajjal itself (not as human, not by symbolic features either). Just Dajjal a agent of fitna?. If you believe that, it is no longer matter whether is characteristics are literal or symbolic.

Brother, My stance on DAJJAL is the symbolic features, while the physical features are to be taking metaphorically not literally as commonly used by Allah in the Quran with both animate and inanimate objects as I mentioned earlier

Crescentholm:



Surah Al-Mursalat, Verse 25& 26
أَلَمْ نَجْعَلِ الْأَرْضَ كِفَاتًا
أَحْيَاءً وَأَمْوَاتًا
Have We not made the earth (as a place) to draw together for the living and the dead,

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 55:
إِذْ قَالَ اللَّهُ يَا عِيسَىٰ إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا وَجَاعِلُ الَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوكَ فَوْقَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا إِلَىٰ يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ ثُمَّ إِلَيَّ مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَأَحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ فِيمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ

Lo! God said: "O Jesus! Verily, I shall cause thee to die, and shall exalt thee unto Me, and cleanse thee of [the presence of] those who are bent on denying the truth; and I shall place those who follow thee [far] above those who are bent on denying the truth, unto the Day of Resurrection. Then, unto Me will be the return..”

**In the above, Allah promised to KILL HIM FIRST BEFORE EXALTING HIM (i.e raising the soul as expected of every dead person). He didn’t say I’ll raise you before killing!!!

Again, you did not address the issue of his "soulless" body. Quran says the people were confused and followed nothing but conjecture. If his body was down there and the soul alone was taken up, his soulless body would be evidence and there would have been no conjecture with them. Again, where was his body?. Do you have islamic reference of historical account of his lifeless body since you claimed only his soul was taken up?.

Crescentholm:
Surah An-Nisa, Verse 158:
بَل رَّفَعَهُ اللَّهُ إِلَيْهِ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ عَزِيزًا حَكِيمًا
nay, God exalted him unto Himself - and God is indeed almighty, wise.

RAFA'A (EXALT or ASCENSION?)

According to the English lexicon, “Exalt” is
From Old French exalter, from Latin exaltare
1- (transitive) TO HONOR; TO HOLD IN HIGH ESTEEM.
They exalted their queen.
2- TO RAISE IN RANK, STATUS ., to elevate.
The man was exalted from a humble carpenter to a minister.

We have always understood EXALT to mean "raise his rank"

Crescentholm:


ASCENSION.

Where is Allah?

For scholars who believe in his a.s bodily ascent because the question then arises as to where was God when He raised Jesus(as) to Himself? Was He not present where Jesus(as) was? Does God not occupy the entire universe? Was God not above Jesus(as), below Jesus(as), to the right of him and to the left of him? It is a fact that nobody can move to God as God is not a body. Bodies can only move in the direction of bodies. This is an inviolable law.

You have no problem interpreting Dajjal to mean metaphoric and symbolic, why do you have problem with this?. Why did you choose literal interpretation of this?.

Now read this, when nabi Muhammad(saw) went through isra and miraj, he was close to Allah. Would you say Allah is body in this context as well?. Unless you don't believe in isral and miraj, that will be a whole different.

Crescentholm:


IS THE QURAN TRULY TRULY SILENT ON THE DEATH OF JESUS?

“WamaWama Muhammadun I’ll rosul. Qad khalat min qablihi roosul…”
Meaning:

“Muhammad is nothing but a messenger. All other Messengers have passed on before him…”

Lol, only your translation used ALL. All standard translations did not use ALL. They used 'many'.

Crescentholm:

Surah An-Nahl, Verse 20:
وَالَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ لَا يَخْلُقُونَ شَيْئًا وَهُمْ يُخْلَقُونَ

Now those beings that some people invoke beside God cannot create anything, since they themselves are but created:

Surah An-Nahl, Verse 21:
أَمْوَاتٌ غَيْرُ أَحْيَاءٍ وَمَا يَشْعُرُونَ أَيَّانَ يُبْعَثُونَ

they are all dead, not living, and they do not [even] know when they will be raised from the dead!

**As at the time these verses above was revealed to the holy Prophet pbuh, Isa a.s was among the being associated with Allah, and so is dead as Allah declared without ambiguity.

you are basically citing basic ayat that established 'CERTAINTY OF DEATH'

Crescentholm:


WHERE IS THE BODY?

Brother, it’s no doubt that the basis Christianity is the THE DEATH AND ASCENSION OF JESUS a.s, though the Bible testifies to seeing him a.s shortly after crucifixion but he a.s later disappeared and THE FALASY OF ASCENSION CAME IN. It is reasonable to believe that Jesus a.s absconded to evade the second arrest if news of his whereabouts become known to his enemies just as Muhammad pbuh abscond from Mecca.

No doubt the Quran testifies to many prophets sent by Allah. Only the parts /aspect of the lives OF SOME OF THEM that seems important that was related in the Quran.

AS REGARDS ARCHEOLOGY FACTS, THERE ARE MANY THAT POINTS TO THE MOVEMENT OF JESUS a.s AFTER THE INCIDENT OF THE CROSS. Though I misplaced some, but Insha’Allah, I should be able to remember some.
* The essene brothers (or the 3 scrolls)
* The shroud of Turin
* Also a BBC documentary on the Tomb of Jesus (You can get that on YouTube).
* Jesus lived in India by Holger Kersten:
* The Crucifixion of Christ: A Fact, not Fiction by John Gilchrist.
* Jesus Christ did not Die on the Cross – A Cardiologist’s Perspective by Professor M M H Nuri

That’s what I can remember presently.

Sorry brother, why don't you stick to islamic text since you claimed Quran is not silent on this?. You are now quoting BBC, Christian book when Allah clearly informed you that they followed nothing but CONJECTURE. Why do you think i should believe biblical account?. I have not stepped out of islamic text. So why did you travel to christianity to convince me?


I am well aware of Amadiyah believe Jesus travelled to India. That's Ghulam theory. I have hindu and christian friends who claimed this theory as well. I can not take this as absolute truth since Quran doesn't say anything about it. You are however entitled to your view.

@bold shows your confusion. If he was seen moving after cross incident, is EVIDENCE he did not die.

Empiree:



Lol, only your translation used ALL. All standard translations did not use ALL. They used 'many'

.

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 144:

AND MUHAMMAD is only an apostle; all the [other] apostles have passed away before him: if, then, he dies or is slain, will you turn about on your heels? But he that turns about on his heels can in no wise harm God - whereas God will requite all who are grateful [to Him].
(English - Mohd Asad)

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 144:

Muhammad is but a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) have passed away before him. Will it be that, when he dieth or is slain, ye will turn back on your heels? He who turneth back on his heels doth no hurt to Allah, and Allah will reward the thankful.
(English - Pickthal)


Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 144:

And Muhammad is no more than an apostle; the apostles have already passed away before him; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels, he will by no means do harm to Allah in the least and Allah will reward the grateful.
(English - Shakir)

These are also my Translations Brother? please be sincere, you're out of point.

Thinking I'm trying to convince you?, Remember "LA IQRAHA FI DIN, QAD TABAYYQNAL RUSHDU MINAL GHAYI.." & also, "lasta alaihi bi musaytir.."

At least, you're aware of the incident that occurred immediately after the death of the holy Prophet pbuh, when Umar unshielded​ his sword. IMMEDIATELY HAZHRAT ABUBAKAR r.a recited /reminded the sahabas of this verse, Umar r.a sword fell and he burst into tears. HE (UMAR r.a)AFFIRMED clearly that it was the reminder that convince him that Muhammad pbuh is dead (like the previous ones).

Is the Hadith also Ghulam Ahmad work. Please lets be sincere and just in our dealings so as not to incur the displeasure of Allah

When Muhammad Mustapha pbuh was INSTRUCTED NOT TO COMPEL ANY ONE TOWARDS FAITH OR IN ACT OF FAITH. WHO AM I, THIS WORTHLESS SERVANT COMPARED TO HIM PBUH TO DO THAT?

Empiree:
Sorry brother, why don't you stick to islamic text since you claimed Quran is not silent on this?. You are now quoting BBC, Christian book when Allah clearly informed you that they followed nothing but CONJECTURE. Why do you think i should believe biblical account?. I have not stepped out of islamic text. So why did you travel to christianity to convince me?


.

Brother, "..Qul Amana billahi wa malaikat, wa KUTB...", I don't believe you have forgotten this. If I did quote other heavenly scripture, I didn't exceed my limit as Allah instructed.

Moreover, go back to your post above, you requested for facts from history that testifies to his movement/travels after the incident of crucifixion.

If Ghulam Ahmad inspires the story of India, for the BBC, in support of other scientist, investigated and publish it, then, it must have been authentic story because they don't publish uninvestigated fact or fallacies.

Many historical records and books area available. If you remain in a position, you can't add to your knowledge.
*The LOST TRIBES and the Saxons of the East and West by George Moore M.D (Longman, 1861).
(Ghulam Ahmad have not said neither have he made any claim to anything by 1861).

*Cyclopedia of India and Southern Asia by Surgeon General Edward Balfour. Vol. I third edition.

*A journey from Bengal to England, through the Northern part of India, Kashmire, Afghanistan, and Perisa and into Russia by the Caspian-sea, by George Forster. Vol. ii (R. Faulder & son, London, 1808).

(Ghulam Ahmad is not born by 1808, how unwise will a person declared someone inspire an information that already exist before his birth)

Empiree:
Sorry brother, why don't you stick to islamic text since you claimed Quran is not silent on this?.

@bold shows your confusion. If he was seen moving after cross incident, is EVIDENCE he did not die.

Brother, by Allah, I acknowledge the fact that you are knowledgeable, but You keep ignoring the Quran quotations, claiming I deny some Hadith because I have other clear proofs from other Hadith, after which you requested historical Fact. Let's remember that "Allah says, "Inna Huda, Huda llahil Huda" (through guidance is the guidance of Allah), He s.w.t also emphasize the fact that we seek knowledge (as knowledge is the lost property of a Muslim).

Please review the following.

SOME OTHER HADITH ARE HERE, NOT TO CONVINCE YOU BUT TO EDUCATE YOU AND FOR OTHERS NOT TO BE MISLEAD BY SOME TAKFIR SCHOLARS.

In Sahih Bukhari,
Hazrat Ibn Abbas, Allah be pleased with him, has been quoted as translating "Mutawaeeka" with "I will cause thee to die".
(Bukhari, Kitab alTafseer, Sura Maaida)

In Sura 19:31-34, Isa a.s said (just as Yahya a.s said,whereas, Yahya a.s statement was not seen as coming back to life, why was Isa a.s word misinterpreted??)

He said, I am a servant of Allah. He has given me the Book, and made me a Prophet. And He has made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and has enjoined upon me Prayer and almsgiving so long as I live; And He has made me dutiful toward my mother, and He has not made me haughty and unblessed. And peace was on me the day I was born, and peace there will be on me the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised up to life again.

In Sura 21:35 Allah boldly declared:
We granted not everlasting life to any human being before thee. If then thou shouldst die, shall they live here forever ?

Commenting upon the verses of Sura Maryam regarding Jesus, peace be upon him,
Syed Qutub says: "The definite explanation advanced here is of Jesus's death and him being raised aer death. ere is no scope for any other interpretation for unnecessary diatribe. (Fi Zilal il Quran, Vol: 4, Page:66)

The Holy Prophet saw, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him has said:
If Moses and Jesus were alive, they would have no alternative but to follow me. (Ibn Kathir: Tafseer ul Quran vol 1 page 378)
The Holy Prophet (pbuh) said to the group of Najran: Do you not know that OUR LORD IS LIVING and He will never die, WHEREAS JESUS HAS ALREADY DIED ? (Asbabun Nazul, page 68).

The Holy Prophetsaw, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, said: Gebriel informed me that every successive prophet has lived to half the age of his predecessor. And verily Jesus, son of Mary, lived to 120 years. erefore, I think, I may rea the age of sixty. (Kanzulummal vol 11 page 479)

Hazrat Haz Imam Ibn Qayyam says: And what is asserted about the Messiah that he was lied towards heaven at the age of 33 years has not been supported by any Hadith and cannot, therefore, win our conviction. (Zad ul Maad vol. 1, page 84)

IMPORTANT NOTE: In the 1990 edition of this book "Asbabun Nazul" the part of the sentence referring to the death of Isa a.s. was deleted, whereas it was wrien in the old edition, see page No. 7072 of this book. is is a clear manipulation by the opponents of the Jamaat and thus Muslims are following in the footsteps of the Jews, as Holy Prophet (pbuh) had prophesied that Muslims would resemble them in every respect. (Asbabun Nuzul page 44, edition 1990)

THe Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, is reported to have said: "Allah the Exalted revealed to Jesus, peace be upon him, : 'O Isa, continue to move from one place to another so that you might not be persecuted aer being recognised." (Kanzulummal apter 1 in vol 3 page 158)

The Holy Prophet , Peace and blessing of Allah be upon him, praised Allah the Exalted and eulogized Him, and then he said: O people, I have come to know that you are afraid of your Prophet's death. Did any of the prophet who was sent before me had everlasting life that I should live with you for ever? Hearken, I am going to meet my Lord, and certainly you will meet me. Hence, I give you advise regarding the rst immigrants (from Mecca). (Khutaba alMustafa by Mohammad Khalil alKahteeb: page 345


ALLAMA ABU TAYYEB SIDDIQUE BIN HASAN says: " It is wrien in Zadul Ma'ad authored by HAZ IBNE QAYYAM, Allah's mercy be upon him, that the assertion that Jesus, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, was lied up at the age of 33 years, has not been supported by any Hadith and cannot, therefore, merit our belief. Shami has been quoted as saying that the truth of the maers is exactly the same as described by Imam IBNE QAYYIM. is belief of ascension of Jesus at the age of 33 years is based on the narratives of the Christians. It is quite clear from the Traditions of the Holy Prophet, that Jesus's spiritual ascension took place at the age of 120 years. (Fat hul Bayan vol 2 page 247)

Hazrat Mohyuddin Ibn Arabi states:"By Raf'a e Isa, peace be upon him, it is meant that his soul ascended to heaven. As it is essential for his soul to return to his real place or ultimate place of rest, and as it has not yet reaed its true perfection, in the last days most certainly descend to earth again, but with a new body.
(Tafsir ul Quran Vol 1 Page 296)

Sheikh Muhiyyud din ibn Arabi adds: He is the prophet whom Allah raised to heaven aer he was seperated from his body and his relation with the material world was cut. (Fusus al Hikam, Fass 4, page 4546)

The Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, is reported to have said: When the servant of God adopts humility, Allah the Exalted elevates him up to the seventh heaven." (Kanzulummal, Babul Awwal Fil Akhlaq, vol 3 page 110)

INSHA'ALLAH, I CAN PROVIDE THE ORIGINAL TEXT (in Arabic) OF ALL THE EVIDENCES ABOVEON REQUEST SO YOU CAN RE TRANSLATE THEM YOURSELF AND FOR CLARIFICATION.

It seems to me that we are just getting started on this. You are trying to inundate me with references since you could not see my argument about nabi Isa's(a s) lifeless body. Hence, you need to stay tune i bring up my references too. I have been so reluctant to this bcuz i believed you are pretty much aware of those ahadth in connection of Jesus, Gog and Magog and Dajjal. But since you chose to ignore all that, then, let's get started.

Mind you, in your very own narration of Qadiani, you have flaws in them about age of Isa (alaihi salam) and his eventual return.

Crescentholm:
The Holy Prophetsaw, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, said: Gebriel informed me that every successive prophet has lived to half the age of his predecessor. And verily Jesus, son of Mary, lived to 120 years. erefore, I think, I may rea the age of sixty. (Kanzulummal vol 11 page 479)


ALLAMA ABU TAYYEB SIDDIQUE BIN HASAN says: " It is wrien in Zadul Ma'ad authored by HAZ IBNE QAYYAM, Allah's mercy be upon him, that the assertion that Jesus, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, was lied up at the age of 33 years, has not been supported by any Hadith and cannot, therefore, merit our belief. Shami has been quoted as saying that the truth of the maers is exactly the same as described by Imam IBNE QAYYIM. is belief of ascension of Jesus at the age of 33 years is based on the narratives of the Christians. It is quite clear from the Traditions of the Holy Prophet, that Jesus's spiritual ascension took place at the age of 120 years. (Fat hul Bayan vol 2 page 247)

I hope you also know there is another narration in your literature that says Isa alaiy salam was 125 at the time of his "spiritual ascension".


# According to rules of narration (riwayah): Hafiz Haithmi has called it Daeef (i.e. unauthentic). After quoting this narration he writes:

رواه الطبراني باسناد ضعيف ، وروى البزار بعضه أيضا وفى رجاله ضعف


“Tabarani narrated it with a weak chain and Bazzar also narrated some part of it and in its chain (also) is weakness.”
(Majma’ Al-Zawai’d Wa Manba Al-Fawai’d 4/67, Chapter on the illness and death of the Prophet)





In the light of rationality (diraya): According to the principle of diraya (i.e. rationality) as well, this narration is not acceptable. The narration gives the notion as if every Prophet lives half the age of the Prophet immediately before him. This cannot be true and thus can never be uttered by the Noble and Truthful Prophet (PBUH). If Jesus (PBUH) lived for 120 years then John the Baptist (Yahya A.S.) should have lived for 240 years but he lived less then the period Jesus (PBUH) remained on Earth. Moreover following this cycle we have to believe that Adam (PBUH) perhaps lived millions of years which cannot be true.





Moreover there is a lot of confusion regarding the wording of the of the narration which is even otherwise weak. In Ibn Asaakir’s Tarikh Damishq (47/482) and Ibn Saa’d’s Tabaqaat Al-Kubra (2/195) there are narrations that tend to convey as if Jesus (PBUH) lived for 150 years. Indeed these narrations are also of dubious narration like the one about 120 years.



Ibn Asaakir after quoting both these narrations says:

كذا في هاتين الروايتين والصحيح أن عيسى لم يبلغ هذا العمر


“It’s like that in these two narrations [about 120 & 150 years] and the truth is that Jesus (PBUH) did not reach this age.” (Tarikh Damishq 47/482)



Now, let's turn the tables, let me ask why Qadianis not take the narration in full and apply it to other issues? Does it not say, “And I have been told that there is no Prophet after other Prophet but he lives a life half then the one who lived earlier”? While it does, how could Mirza Qadiani be a Prophet for according to this narration?. if there ever was to be any Prophet after the Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), he would live only 31 or 32 years, half of the Prophet’ (PBUH) age i.e. 63 years while Mirza lived far more. Verily this proves the fragility of Qadiani arguments.



And since you believe Qadianis believe more and more prophets will come "after" Rasullullah (SAWS), according to Qadianis Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib was a “prophet”. And it means with every new prophet his age will be half of preceeding prophet. A time will come when subsequent prophets will be 15 years, 7.5 years, 3.45 years….actually future prophets will be done with their ministry before they could reach age of maturity.




Now here is Qadiani/Ahmadi contradiction. Below quotes are gleaned from their literature.


"Hence, I shall prove in this book that Jesus (Peace be upon him) did not die on the cross neither did he go up to the heavens nor it should ever be hoped that he will return to the earth from the heavens; rather, he died at the age of 120 years in Srinagar in Kashmir, and his grave is in the Khanyar Region of Srinagar." (Maseeh Hindustan Mein, (Jesus in India) Roohani Khazain, vol.15, p.14)



"Authentic narrations of hadith prove that our holy Prophet (pbuh) said in the person of Jesus two such qualities were combined which were not present in any other prophet. Firstly, he lived his full life, i.e. he was alive for 125 years. Secondly, he toured most of the parts of the world�now it is obvious if he had ascended to heavens at the age of only 33 years, then the tradition of 125 years would not have been correct, neither he could have toured at such a young age of 33. These traditions are not only mentioned in the authentic and ancient books of hadith, but they are so popular among all the sects of Muslims that none can be imagined more famous." (Maseeh Hindustan Mein {Jesus in India}, Roohani Khazain, vol. 15, pp. 55-56)

Crescentholm:


Hazrat Mohyuddin Ibn Arabi states:"By Raf'a e Isa, peace be upon him, it is meant that his soul ascended to heaven. As it is essential for his soul to return to his real place or ultimate place of rest, and as it has not yet reaed its true perfection, in the last days most certainly descend to earth again, but with a new body. (Tafsir ul Quran Vol 1 Page 296)


Sheikh Muhiyyud din ibn Arabi adds: He is the prophet whom Allah raised to heaven aer he was seperated from his body and his relation with the material world was cut. (Fusus al Hikam, Fass 4, page 4546)

I hope you read this before posting?. You see tafsir you quoted shot your foot?.


# @ first bold, my question CLEARLY says he will return in contrast to your belief that Isa alaih salam is dead and will not return. So you refute yourself.



# @ second bold, my question remains. If his soul left his body, it means his lifeless material body is evidence of his death. Question is, where is the body?. There is no historical fact of this. But you brought up British and biblical reference to back up your point. Why not Qur'an since you said Quran is not silent on the issue?.


Apart from that, Quran says that they follow conjecture. "And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain." If his material body was on the ground, they would not have doubted or assumed or confused about his death. And they would have buried him and nabi Muhammad(saw) would have given us clue of the location just like Noah's ark. So you see confusion within your narration now?