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Bbc, Olusosun And Nigerian Middle Class Hypocrisy - Politics (8) - Nairaland

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Re: Bbc, Olusosun And Nigerian Middle Class Hypocrisy by Nobody: 11:34pm On Apr 18, 2010
odumorun:

PADDY LO's PSUEDO INTELECTUAL VODDO ECONOMICS

Nigeria has always been a hand me down economy, a dumping ground for cheap foreign imports, so its not surprising that it still produces ‘Okrika wake up’ intellectuals like Paddy lo who parrot, with the air of an expert pale imitations of the kind of right wing voodoo economics which  recently plunged the world into the worst financial collapse in a century.

There is not a serious economist anywhere in the western world that now regards the credit fuelled market fundamentalism Paddy Lo advocates as anything but a joke,.

But let’s take a closer look at what he has advocated, peering through the meaningless statistics meant not to clarify, but to intimidate the uninformed into silent acquiescence.



It was the ‘socialistic’ method of embarking on public sector driven construction works as against a credit fuelled mortgage boom Theodore Roosevelt used to pull America out of the Great depression in the 1930’s policies copied successfully by Governments across Europe at the time. Creating demand by boosting employment, putting money in people’s hands and hence reviving the market. The worker thus employed from the public purse spends his money in the market buying goods and services, bringing the factories back to life and restoring numerous small businesses such as dry cleaners,  small shops restaurants etc back to life.
Which central banker of a major today advocates deficit spending to get a country out of recession? None. We have to mention deficits because contrary to what you think no government in the world today has billions of dollars worth of idle funds waiting to be invested in supposed construction projects.
So how do you finance the deficit. Taxation, Borrowing or simply printing more money Idi Amin style??
Re: Bbc, Olusosun And Nigerian Middle Class Hypocrisy by cap28: 11:45pm On Apr 18, 2010
paddy_lo:

and HAVANA still looks like its 1950, with 1950 volkswagon beetle plying its streets
Thats what happens when u allow a Govt to control the means of production and capital

Capital allocation is wasted on meaningless things like weapons and a large army
To the detriment of any real economic activity


the reason that Cuba's economy is in the state that its in is because of a 51 year trade embargo imposed by america and yet admirably it has acheived more for its citizens than oil rich nigeria and even the wealthiest country in the world - america, i dont know about you but i find that highly commendable.  perhaps you would have preferred the pre castro cuba that was run by the american mafia in cahoots with some corrupt cuban elitists and landowners, where the vast majority of the population lived in ghettos having been kicked off their land by american multinational corporations?

you talk about capital allocation being wasted on meaningless things like weapons but are you aware that the US has the highest defence budget in the world?  i cant beleive you actually referred to weapons as being "meaningless things"  lol
Re: Bbc, Olusosun And Nigerian Middle Class Hypocrisy by 4Play(m): 12:02am On Apr 19, 2010
If the Government embarked upon 5 to 10 year plans of delivering roads across the country through direct emergency public works doing away with the parasitic contract system, awarding contracts only for design not delivery, it could employ tens of thousands of jobless restless young men, put money in their pockets and boost demand for local goods and services and boost the countries infrastructure,

We've tried this before. It's a shame Nigerians were not taught history extensively in school. What do you think happened in the 70s? We had a policy of major state investment in public infrastructure that led to huge debts and ultimately, led us into the hands of the IMF.

There are millions of Nigerians unemployed. Oil revenues alone cannot finance the level of infrastructural investment that will increase productivity in the economy and consequently, provide jobs for the millions of unemployed. You are going to have to partner with the private sector as state planning has been proven to be a monumental failure.
Re: Bbc, Olusosun And Nigerian Middle Class Hypocrisy by paddylo1(m): 12:04am On Apr 19, 2010
PADDY LO's PSUEDO INTELECTUAL VODDO ECONOMICS

Nigeria has always been a hand me down economy, a dumping ground for cheap foreign imports, so its not surprising that it still produces ‘Okrika wake up’ intellectuals like Paddy lo who parrot, with the air of an expert pale imitations of the kind of right wing voodoo economics which  recently plunged the world into the worst financial collapse in a century.

There is not a serious economist anywhere in the western world that now regards the credit fuelled market fundamentalism Paddy Lo advocates as anything but a joke,.

But let’s take a closer look at what he has advocated, peering through the meaningless statistics meant not to clarify, but to intimidate the uninformed into silent acquiescence.

Voodoo economics u call it, The rest of the world calls it capitalism.open markets Free Trade agreements and the ability to lift millions out of poverty
Ad-hominem attacks like someone said betray an inability to present your arguements coherently

Economists all agree on the need to cut bank leverage from 50-1 to around 20 -1, that doesnt do anything for your arguement
because leverage/credit is still a driver of all the worlds economies


He advocates a construction boom to revive the economy. But the only construction booms that work during a recession are those driven by  massive public works, not false credit, public infrastructure projects aimed not at yielding a profit but provide socially useful Infrastructure, such as roads, bridges, dams railway lines, schools, hospitals and soak up unemployment by employing thousands of workers tossed on the trash heap by recession.

It was the ‘socialistic’ method of embarking on public sector driven construction works as against a credit fuelled mortgage boom Theodore Roosevelt used to pull America out of the Great depression in the 1930’s policies copied successfully by Governments across Europe at the time. Creating demand by boosting employment, putting money in people’s hands and hence reviving the market. The worker thus employed from the public purse spends his money in the market buying goods and services, bringing the factories back to life and restoring numerous small businesses such as dry cleaners,  small shops restaurants etc back to life.

No Government in Nigeria has ever advocated such a policy of direct public works to deliver infrastructure because it threatens the very existence of the contract system of delivering projects through which the elite enriches itself.

[b]Again u dont get it, Govt cannot i repeat cannot efficiently allocate capital
that is why the soviet union collapsed. . .They might have built highways and dams, but that economic system still collapsed

when i talk of construction boom,i talk of mortgages,loans and credit extended by the private sector. . .
can u tell me why Private schools are performing better than public ones in america?
how is any Govt run thing here compared to the private one?
Every economist will tell u that Government spending crowds out the private sector and that any Government spending above 20% of GDP
is a recipee for disaster

Can u explain to the good folks where Govt gets the money it spends?
does it tax it, borrow it, print it?
As Margret thatcher famously said
"The problem with socialism is that very soon u run out of other peoples money to spend"
that is food for thought for u since Govt does not own anything,any money it spends must be taxed,borrowed or printed too much of which is a detriment to overall society
[/b]


In reality it is the private sector which fuels corruption in the country, through the system of awarding major public contracts to private contractors who grant kick backs to public officers, employ as few workers as possible and abandon the projects half way through or carry out shoddy jobs.

If the Government embarked upon 5 to 10 year plans of delivering roads across the country through direct emergency public works doing away with the parasitic contract system, awarding contracts only for design not delivery, it could employ tens of thousands of jobless restless young men, put money in their pockets and boost demand for local goods and services and boost the countries infrastructure,  However the right wing conservative cabal that has ruled the country without a popular mandate since independence would never embark on such a policy as it is a direct threat to its interests.

The idea of a construction boom in the country driven by the private sector is a perverse joke. The private sector invests only for profit. That requires a market. The mortgage market anywhere in the world is based on a solid sizeable middle class who can afford to pay long term for the properties they purchase. – Nurses, doctors, teachers, civil servants, professionals, small businessmen. Apart from a few bank workers, those in the oil sector and perhaps telecom sectors how many people in Nigeria can be said to be in a position to pay the going rate for reasonable apartments. If you were a banker would you grant mortgages to low paid teachers, or nurses many of whom never get their salary paid on time?

Then there is the issue of supply at what rate will be these houses be sold considering most of the components will be imported with hard currency, considering that these houses will have to be linked to a none existent national grid and water and sewage system or is paddy lo suggesting that the private sector supplies this too.



[b]If there is private sector corruption in Nigeria, its called croney capitalism, that is not what most capitalist societies advocate
besides the corruption that is inherent in socialism and price fixing is worse
heck just look at the massive corruption in NNPCs petrol subsidies
u spout nonsense about contract bids, because in a true free market all will bid for a job and the lowest price bid in conjuction with the company with the best technical knowhow will win

As for your other write up, Nigeria cannot afford Govt spending that goes down the drain that achieves nothing
we have been going that route since independence without any result
it will simply be a waste of resource

I have told u how modern economies structure their housing industries,with help from financial services
u can find it if u read my earlier posts

Its the same from brazil to indonesia
Private home builders take the lead to provide infrastructure, and They use the Financial services industry to get funding for long term projects
and the end users are put into individual mortgages
There is no shortcut to financial literacy,
u cant go around building estates putting people in it that dont have a stake in the building itself in form of mortgages. . .
we already tried that in the past and the ESTATES turned to SLUMS, Like FESTAC[/b]


The views of paddy lo are symptomatic of many educated Nigerians who have read a few western books or perhaps taken a few business degrees in the west and then obediently try and apply their policies  in Africa regardless of local conditions. Learning that it snows in Europe they duly purchase a thick winter coat to use in Lagos and wonder why they end up fainting in the heat  “Wetin happen now, shebi Oyinbo talk say e go snow for November”.

Most of the medium level third world nations he mentioned are actually heavily regulated economies with massive levels of Government intervention unlike the gangster capitalism in Nigeria where the poor are left to rot. In Countries like Egypt, Indonesia, Iraq, Malaysia, Brazil, Peru and Indionesia basic subsistence foodstuffs are heavily subsidised by the government, ensuring a level of nourishment for all and leaving enough money in the people’s pockets to sustain other industries. How many Nigerian families don’t spend at least 80% of their family budget on food? These countries have the type of infrastructure that we in Nigeria can only dream of. They don’t take the lights in Cairo and the Government not the private sector supplies electricity.

Paddy lo talks of China and India as success stories of deregulation betraying how little he knows about these country. Perhaps he does not know that the Chinese have never allowed their currency to be determined by ‘market forces’ much to western displeasure,  thus maintaining competitiveness in the international market. In China there are basic rules meant to protect the poorer classes like price and rent controls.

Moreover China and India maintained a major state dominated economy for decades building thier basic infrastructure, educating their populace in good public funded universities unlike our own underfunded ones and did not just start producing the goods it does now overnight.

That is why there were food riots in Egypt as prices soared in 2008,because regulation leads to shortages
It doesnt work, Egypt is a basket case of an economy with very high levels of public sector corruption and creaking infrastructure
Iraq and peru are also not a model

while Indonesia and brazil are based on capitalist ideology,
Your problem is u dont understand the connection btw capitalism and Govt spending. . .
The money used to run these small level of social spending are gotten by growth powered by the capitalist/market forces. .

Indonesia and brazil are economic powerhouses in their respective regions. . .
I can bet u that Govt spending on welfare as a percentage of GDP is less than 10% in both countries
the real growth drivers are on the Jarkata stock Exchange. . .or the Exchange in Sao Paolo
The various companies that the govt taxes to get money to spend are what makes growth and development happen
TBContd. . .

Re: Bbc, Olusosun And Nigerian Middle Class Hypocrisy by paddylo1(m): 12:38am On Apr 19, 2010
It learnt by trial and error for 30 years by protecting its local market from competition while perfecting local technique. Who has forgotten how we used to laugh at made in China and India, in the 1970’s their thick irons, their funny shoes, their shapeless clothes. Now they produce 60% of the world’s clothes for the most fashionable brands on the planet. If rather than laughing at them we had protected the ex Biafran craftsmen and workers the way the Asian giants did theirs– we would be close to where the Indians and Chinese are now. But not us, how could we forgo the imported wonyosi, would we be seen dead without the Italian shoes Wetin those babes for talk.

What the Chinese and indians did for 3 decades was dismiss the nonsense of market forces and free trade for the self interested western tricks they are, (america imposes heavy tariffs for instance on imported cotton from africa to protect its own inneficient cotton farmers, but demands we lift tariffs on the clothes they export back to us and unpaid apologists the paddy lo's of this world parrot such trash to us) close their markets and ensure thir people bought the chinese and Indian equivalent of aba made until the local manufacturers perfected their game then and only then did they open up to the world, so also did the Indians that is why they are on the verge of overtaking the Americans and Europeans as the most productive country in the world. They only deregulated their economy after 3 decades of intense regulation had had prepared it to conquer the world not be conquered by it. We opened up too early and like all girls who open up too early we got mercilessly screwed and dumped. It was the protected omo mummy, who we laughed at as a square or egbe who became the beautiful bride because she came out when she was ready and was taken on her own terms.

We have been following the mantra of free market forces for 500 years now, from the time we sold ourselves (slavery) through the time we sold our country (colonialism) to the time we sell our wealth (so called independence). At every period we allow the west to decide the price of our goods. We end up indebted, impoverished and ruined and it is always those who preach these policies most zealously who get rich from them not we who bear the burden of them. The doctor imparting the medicine survives the patient reciving it dies. We are tired of being fooled 5 centuries of lies, theft and oppression is enough. We need a change
China was going to hell quickly that is why it abandoned its so called cultural revolution or whatever and embraced deregulation and free markets
u are giving an untrue version of history
It is a known fact that farmers in china were about to revolt before the Govt relaxed its rules on collective farming

allowing them to sell excess produce. . China today is communist only in name. . .
Its population is so big, that if it actually decides to practice communism or if capitalism wasnt delivering 11% growth to it
then there will be riots on the streets. . .

The shanghai stock market allows margin trading,it allows going long and shorting stocks,It trades futures,options,derivatives
It wants to be a financial centre like New York or London

so who are u fooling?. . .pure communism failed in china and they quickly moved on
and u are here advocating that failure for Nigeria
Re: Bbc, Olusosun And Nigerian Middle Class Hypocrisy by cap28: 12:46am On Apr 19, 2010
paddy_lo:

Indonesia and brazil are economic powerhouses in their respective regions. . .
I can bet u that Govt spending on welfare as a percentage of GDP is less than 10% in both countries
the real growth drivers are on the Jarkata stock Exchange. . .or the Exchange in Sao Paolo
The various companies that the govt taxes to get money to spend are what makes growth and development happen
TBContd. . .

[/b][/color]



you really are clueless, the idea that the capitalist model as demonstrated by indonesia should be held up as  a model to aspire to indicates to me that you are either completely ignorant or morally bankrupt.

i dont think you are used to critical analysis and therefore i have posted this link that may help you to understand more about what capitalism meant for Indonesia, this country is held up as a model of capitalism but  the world bank and IMF conveniently leave out the backdrop to this supposed success story , the genocide that took place first in order to usher in this system, the destruction it has sown, this is what you are advocating for nigeria, and i can tell you that the stage has been set for the same thing to happen in nigeria by the international financial instititutions (IMF, world bank)  I suggest you read this link and try and understand what capitalism is really about rather than parrot this neo liberal garbage that you were fed in college:

http://www.inminds.co.uk/globalisation-in-indonesia.html
Re: Bbc, Olusosun And Nigerian Middle Class Hypocrisy by paddylo1(m): 12:46am On Apr 19, 2010
Historically in this country, the best results have come from the few left leaning governments we've had not the dominat right wing ones. The Yoruba’s today are arguably the most educated section of the black race on earth due to the left wing polices of free education pursued by awolowo after he lifted them verbatim from the manifesto of the most radical  British Labour in British history the  party of Clement Attlee in 1952 introducing free education in Western Nigeria just 5 years after it was introduced in Britain which had a 400 year start on the country. TThe best roads ever in the country were built in the country by his public corporations with minimal contractor involvement.

Paddy lo gives tghe same guff about the need to deregulate inneficient bodies like NEPA and NITEL to make them more efficient. But how can NEPAbe eficient when the people running it are also the biggest importers of generators in the country and when these same people will loot its money to buy the company for themselves after it has been privatised
Sigh. . .The only problem with your analysis is that every major economy in the world has abandoned those policies u advocate. .
Do u know why they abandon it?
Because after a while Govt spending becomes unsustainable,
That is exactly what is happening in Greece right now. . .Govt spending out of control
Budget deficits and riots in the streets, that is where it will lead, everytime

It surprises me that when something doesnt work u still say pump more money into it. . .and give excuses
oh just pump more  money into NEPA and NITEL, and everything will be ok if we can just get it right this time. .
its madness, and if u really want Govt to focus on social spending,then things like NEPA and NITEL should not be part of it. . .
They should be privatized,taxed and the money gotten from such taxation used to advance whatever social agenda GOVT wishes to spend on. . .
Re: Bbc, Olusosun And Nigerian Middle Class Hypocrisy by Nobody: 12:54am On Apr 19, 2010
Funny this guy used China as an example. China is more regulated than anywhere in the world!!!! Oh wait you mean the deregulation they tried that had their baby market flooded with tainted milk that killed about 4 thousand babies? Yeah deregulation.Dude you are clueless. No nation practices capitalism. Do you know how much Indonesia owes IMF? Hahahahahaha Dude you are extremely clueless. Go pull out a wiki link to prove Indonesia is better than Canada.
Re: Bbc, Olusosun And Nigerian Middle Class Hypocrisy by paddylo1(m): 1:00am On Apr 19, 2010
you really are clueless, the idea that the capitalist model as demonstrated by indonesia should be held up as  a model to aspire to indicates to me that you are either completely ignorant or morally bankrupt.

i dont think you are used to critical analysis and therefore i have posted this link that may help you to understand more about what capitalism meant for Indonesia, this country is held up as a model of capitalism but  the world bank and IMF conveniently leave out the backdrop to this supposed success story , the genocide that took place first in order to usher in this system, the destruction it has sown, this is what you are advocating for nigeria, and i can tell you that the stage has been set for the same thing to happen in nigeria by the international financial instititutions (IMF, world bank)  I suggest you read this link and try and understand what capitalism is really about rather than parrot this neo liberal garbage that you were fed in college:

u had to go back what 10yrs to get a story about indonesia that u can place here?
come on,
Indonesia faced a communist upheaval in its early yrs,
The period in your arcticle was immediately after the Asian financial crises of 1997
All the major Asian economies were affected by reduced output from factory's and slump in GDP

However Indonesia is a better place today,its people are more prosperous, Its GDP growth is solid
It is no longer a member of OPEC, Hence its not a purely commodity based economy
and its due to again a good economic model. . .based of capitalism,strong capital markets,Corporate Bond Markets and so on
Re: Bbc, Olusosun And Nigerian Middle Class Hypocrisy by paddylo1(m): 1:10am On Apr 19, 2010
Funny this guy used China as an example. China is more regulated than anywhere in the world!!!! Oh wait you mean the deregulation they tried that had their baby market flooded with tainted milk that killed about 4 thousand babies? Yeah deregulation.Dude you are clueless. No nation practices capitalism. Do you know how much Indonesia owes IMF? Hahahahahaha Dude you are extremely clueless. Go pull out a wiki link to prove Indonesia is better than Canada.


u saying something 100 times doesnt make it true. . . .am sorry
what do u know about canada, what kind of economic philosophy does it practice
How is it different from Indonesia?

Indonesia owes Foreign debts, well so does the USA,and Japan and every major Economy in the world
It is how u finance growth,and every major company on earth(esp manufacturing companies) also has some form of debt on its books

Canadas leader Stephen Harper is actually right leaning

u have to understand the difference between a capitalist based society that has safety nets inbuilt
and a purely socialist based economy
Re: Bbc, Olusosun And Nigerian Middle Class Hypocrisy by ifele(m): 1:15am On Apr 19, 2010
We need to help the poor in Nigeria. I myslef am poor abroad so I know what its like. I have seen the slums the suffering of poor Nigerians must end. We need to build new housing to house slum dwellers and provide factory jobs for them. If the poor work in efficient factories with good pay they will be able to survive. Poor Nigerians need help. The hypocrisy is too much it must end. People say one thing and mean another. God bless Nigeria's poor.
Re: Bbc, Olusosun And Nigerian Middle Class Hypocrisy by paddylo1(m): 1:26am On Apr 19, 2010
We need to help the poor in Nigeria. I myslef am poor abroad so I know what its like. I have seen the slums the suffering of poor Nigerians must end. We need to build new housing to house slum dwellers and provide factory jobs for them. If the poor work in efficient factories with good pay they will be able to survive.  Poor Nigerians need help. The hypocrisy is too much it must end. People say one thing and mean another. God bless Nigeria's poor.

All these is very well said, but if u reside in canada as u claim,u must know that factory jobs do not magically appear from heaven
someone usually takes the risk to get a loan,build or expand that factory and then increase or reduce workers based on demand

Nigeria can get its safety net in place,but it must get its growth going first,
Theres no way u will maintain GOVT spending if your economy is shrinking or is structurally innefficient

I too want to see Nigerias poor get better,but GOD is not the answer right now. .

Heres a short article about indonesian poverty below


Indonesia's poverty rate falls WEDNESDAY, JULY 01, 2009
A nation with one of the highest rates of poverty in Asia has seen it's percentage fall. Indonesia's poverty rate has fallen to 14.15 from 15.42 a year ago.

From this Reuters story that we found in the Guardian, we read some of the factors that may have led to the drop.

The number of poor people fell to 32.53 million in March, from 34.96 million in the same period a year, the bureau said, based on a survey of 68,000 households. The total population is about 226 million.

The government defines those who spend less than 200,262 rupiah a month on average as below the poverty line. One of the most important factors affecting monthly spending is the price of rice, a staple food.

Rice accounts for about a quarter of monthly spending for the poor in the cities, and about 35 percent of the spending for the poor living in villages.

The price of rice rose 7.8 percent in March compared to a year ago, a slower pace than inflation over the same period, the bureau said, adding that farmers' average daily income increased around 13 percent in the period.
http://povertynewsblog..com/2009/07/indonesias-poverty-rate-falls.html
Re: Bbc, Olusosun And Nigerian Middle Class Hypocrisy by paddylo1(m): 1:34am On Apr 19, 2010
^^^
Pls note the Indonesian population(226million ppl) and see that i will take 13% poverty in Nigeria today over the 60% or so we currently have
There is no way Govt can take care of all these ppl, its only capitalism that will help pull Nigerias poor out of poverty like it is doing in indonesia

FDIs will bring those factorys to Nigeria, there is no reason they cant be sited all around Lagos. . .unemployed ppl that currently wonder aimlessly will have a chance to earn something and build on it for tommorrow. . .
There is no other way to do it. . .we have to copy what works adapt it to our system and then execute it to the tee
Re: Bbc, Olusosun And Nigerian Middle Class Hypocrisy by Nobody: 3:21am On Apr 19, 2010
paddy_lo:


u saying something 100 times doesnt make it true. . . .am sorry
what do u know about canada, what kind of economic philosophy does it practice
How is it different from Indonesia?

Indonesia owes Foreign debts, well so does the USA,and Japan and every major Economy in the world
It is how u finance growth,and every major company on earth(esp manufacturing companies) also has some form of debt on its books

Canadas leader Stephen Harper is actually right leaning

u have to understand the difference between a capitalist based society that has safety nets inbuilt
and a purely socialist based economy


Funny how you ignored the fact that China tried deregulation for two years after it joined the world trade organization and the end result was so quick they noticed it and reversed immediately. Indonesia doesn't just owe foreign debt, their entire economy is owed to foreigners. What you don't understand is that the system in Nigeria now is a capitalist one and how is it going? What has Stephen Harper being right leaning got to do with your capitalist romance? Canada has a government ran health care system which is available to all and that is something you don't find in a capitalist state. The US just adopted same thing. In B.C, Canada, only one government body runs auto insurance (ICBC) and no other insurance company is allowed you know why? It wasn't always like that but since private insurance companies started screwing the people over cause of deregulation, the government took over and guess what? their auto insurance has been running smoothly ever since then.Do you know the biggest scam in the world? Insurance! Canada is not your example for a capitalist society and capitalist is not a liberal or Conservative thing. It's more a societal state of mind. World biggest economies are not capitalist states. Like I said system of governments in successful countries is hybrid. A little dose of this and a little dose of that. Not all the way socialist or all the way capitalist or whatever else you got out there. You still are clueless Paddy lo. Why is Obama pushing for regulation? After a company collected bailout money and the CEO took 80% of it. America is about to pass another law that will slam your capitalist views and it's called financial overhaul. More regulations for wall street. CEOs can no longer embezzle their own funds then file for bankruptcy just like they used to when America was a capitalist crazy nation. Capitalism and deregulation got the world in to financial melt down and you want more deregulation? In a deregulated economy companies can target innocent and unaware citizens and give them a lone of $5 for %80 interest rate. That is what deregulation is. Capitalism doesn't mean getting loan or not so creating jobs and getting loan in Canada has nothing to do with capitalism. The banks give out loan based on the existing regulations and rules. Deregulation means banks can give out loans on their own terms whether favourable to the citizens or not.

Dude and you say you are an econo what? Pleeeeeeeeeease!!!!
Re: Bbc, Olusosun And Nigerian Middle Class Hypocrisy by paddylo1(m): 3:53am On Apr 19, 2010
Canada is not your example for a capitalist society

See the problem i have with people like u is that u choose to be deceptive  when u argue. . .

There is no country in the world without some rules to guide its system of economics. .
However the underlying system is a capitalist one. . . .there should be no arguements about that. . .

As there is no arguement that cubas economy is based on socialism/communism
Here is a quote from this weeks ECONOMIST on an article about cuba. . .

"But it is the home front that is Raúl Castro’s main worry. He insists that he understands the problems Cubans face in their daily lives. But changes are happening very slowly. His latest move is to allow small barbershops to operate as private businesses, with employees paying tax rather than receiving a state salary. Meanwhile, the head of the aviation authority, a former revolutionary hero, was abruptly sacked last month amid rumours that several planes belonging to Cubana, the national airline, were unofficially lent in operations that brought tens of millions of dollars to a handful of officials.
http://www.economist.com/world/americas/displaystory.cfm?story_id=15911203
"

so basically in cuba,u cannot own a private business, (even a barber shop),Here the means of production and capital formation is controlled mostly by the state. . .
Canada is no cuba. . .ok. .

For the last time nobody is arguing the degree of capitalism with u. . .i am talking about the things u take for granted in canada or wherever u are
the ease of opening a business,open markets like NAFTA,functioning capital and money markets,credit bureaus,Foriegn investments,car loans,mortgages,Independent central banks
derivative trading,Hedge Funds,Ability to move capital in and out of the country with ease and so on. .
This is the basic outline of the canadian economy. . . and it is capitalist in nature. . .
Re: Bbc, Olusosun And Nigerian Middle Class Hypocrisy by raintree: 4:06am On Apr 19, 2010
@ paddy_lo
Your quote: Nigeria can get its safety net in place,but it must get its growth going first,
Theres no way u will maintain GOVT spending if your economy is shrinking or is structurally innefficient

For the past 50 years, what significant growths can you proudly show to the rest of the world about Nigeria except these two:
1)  Population growth.
2)  Oil money growth in the hands of the ruling class.

You talked so much about loans and bonds and whatever but the truth is which bank is generous enough to grant loan without a collateral?  Come on, FDI in Nigeria is nothing to shout about in terms of figures.  As for the locals, how much growth do you expect from the private sectors to build the economy when not many of them have assets to be pledged to secure the loan.  Just look at the published CBN Debtors' List last year and there goes all the money.  

You can use all the big words from the economic books and come up with the ABC Workable Trade/Economic Policies for the Naija government but they are just trash or probably left on the shelves collecting dust cos by the time the money is channeled to the respective ministries, they are no where to be found or at best 20% is used but the rest goes to the pockects of who's who.  So, in that sense, you are right, government spending makes no difference.
Re: Bbc, Olusosun And Nigerian Middle Class Hypocrisy by paddylo1(m): 4:49am On Apr 19, 2010
^^^^
Nigerias GDP grew Briskly from 1970 - 1980 going from $10billion - over $64 billion (pls see link 1)
and from 200 - 2008 it grew an average rate of 7%/annum quadrupling from $50billion to over $200billion today. .

[url]http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&ctype=l&strail=false&nselm=h&met_y=ny_gdp_mktp_cd&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country&idim=country:NGA:ZAF&tstart=-315619200000&tunit=Y&tlen=48&hl=en_US&dl=en
[/url]


For FDI inflows Nigeria consistently makes the top two in Africa for inflows and is not doing badly compared to other world nations
see chart. . .From United Nations Conference on Trade and Development(UNCTAD)

http://www.unctad.org/Templates/webflyer.asp?docid=11917&intItemID=1397&lang=1


As for loan growth,that is why a more sophisticated Financial Services Industry is being Promoted by me
and the CBN is trying its best. . see Article below in todays Guardian. .
entitled, Banks engage credit bureaux over lending
[url]http://www.ngrguardiannews.com/news/article01/190410?pdate=190410&ptitle=Banks%20engage%20credit%20bureaux%20over%20lending[/url]



Basically in more advanced economies,when a bank wants to give u a loan like a mortgage or car loan,it depends on credit bureaus to make an informed decision
that is u dont need any collateral,all u need is to have good credit. . .
whether to recieve a $1000 credit card,or $100,000 bank loan. .
again if our banking system evolves,there is no reason why small businessmen cannot get revolving credit of up to $2,000 each,based on their past payments history

Finally i agree with u that Govt Spending should be limited, however even the limited spending should be targeted at things like infrastructure,with private sector participation. . .any big ticket item like owning refineries or steel mills directly by Govt will surely end up being wasted
Instead the Fashola Model of PPP seems to be doing ok in Lagos
Re: Bbc, Olusosun And Nigerian Middle Class Hypocrisy by paddylo1(m): 4:55am On Apr 19, 2010
Figure 2. Global FDI flows, top 20 economies, 2007-2008
UNCTAD

Nigeria is number 19, it shows FDI outflows(1) and Inflows(2)




http://www.unctad.org/Templates/webflyer.asp?docid=11917&intItemID=1397&lang=1
Re: Bbc, Olusosun And Nigerian Middle Class Hypocrisy by Nobody: 5:46am On Apr 19, 2010
paddy_lo:

See the problem i have with people like u is that u choose to be deceptive  when u argue. . .

There is no country in the world without some rules to guide its system of economics. .
However the underlying system is a capitalist one. . . .there should be no arguements about that. . .

As there is no arguement that cubas economy is based on socialism/communism
Here is a quote from this weeks ECONOMIST on an article about cuba. . .

"But it is the home front that is Raúl Castro’s main worry. He insists that he understands the problems Cubans face in their daily lives. But changes are happening very slowly. His latest move is to allow small barbershops to operate as private businesses, with employees paying tax rather than receiving a state salary. Meanwhile, the head of the aviation authority, a former revolutionary hero, was abruptly sacked last month amid rumours that several planes belonging to Cubana, the national airline, were unofficially lent in operations that brought tens of millions of dollars to a handful of officials.
http://www.economist.com/world/americas/displaystory.cfm?story_id=15911203
"

so basically in cuba,u cannot own a private business, (even a barber shop),Here the means of production and capital formation is controlled mostly by the state. . .
Canada is no cuba. . .ok. .

For the last time nobody is arguing the degree of capitalism with u. . .i am talking about the things u take for granted in canada or wherever u are
the ease of opening a business,open markets like NAFTA,functioning capital and money markets,credit bureaus,Foriegn investments,car loans,mortgages,Independent central banks
derivative trading,Hedge Funds,Ability to move capital in and out of the country with ease and so on. .
This is the basic outline of the canadian economy. . . and it is capitalist in nature. . .





Dude the underlying system of financial and industrial system in Canada and other economies in the world doesn't have a definition. System of government is hybrid. Those who chose a system to go with and stick with it are not moving anywhere. Canada doesn't have an underlying capitalist system. It's called democracy and freedom to do what you want provided you obey the law the people made for themselves. Socialism is on a whole different level. There is nothing like keeping whatever in check in a capitalist society that's why I said the world's biggest economic systems are not capitalists, they are hybrid. In Canada you can't own an auto insurance company you can only help sell insurance to people in which you get commission now that's a socialist aspect but the capitalist aspect of it is the government doesn't decide how much you can make. You seem not to get what I'm saying. NO system of economy in the world's best economies is capitalist and all out capitalist, they are hybrid. What we have in Nigeria is extreme capitalism without any form of regulation. Argue that.,  Capitalism is a system of economy that can't work with regulations. It will always be about deregulation and more deregulation. Many CEOs on wall street enjoyed deregulation during the bush era and where did that lead? Negroe have you lost your mind? I believe when you stop reading text books and be practical, you'll have it right. What you read always needs to be tweaked to fit, it's not always perfect or what not?

About Cuba, well dictatorship is not same as socialism. Socialism is not a system of government, just like capitalism, it's a system of economy and citizen's welfare. Medicaid that American seniors get for free? Free college education in the UK? all these are aspects of socialist system but UK is not a socialist society. Go tell those seniors to start paying for medicaid cause it's socialist and see how many will pounce on you. Government make rules to regulate the economy, that is socialist but doesn't interfere with how much profit you can make that is capitalist. Now you see how no good economy is just capitalist like we have in Nigeria? In Nigeria, telecom companies can have an orgnization to raise the tariff rate and the government will do nothing about it. Try that in Canada or US and see the government pounce on you. Lately A Canadian tele company(telus or Rogers) was slammed with a bill of $1billion  which they must return to customers for extra charge. Canadian government is reviewing making the tele companies reduce their tariff. No is that capitalist? Look dude when you read books, you try to be practical with them try to insert what you have read into reality and see how it plays out. And stop quoting from sites, it shows how much you have no idea of your own (understanding of your own) but what you read online.
Re: Bbc, Olusosun And Nigerian Middle Class Hypocrisy by chummie: 11:18am On Apr 19, 2010
@ Richfella

Thank you sooooooooooo much for pointing out what's on my mind and one of the major reasons why I was reluctant to join the forum.

Our problem is that most of the time, people just read a post and fire on at the poster without really understanding the point. Don't know if that's done for fun or if its truly how they perceive the post cos i have a sister who's just like that. She argues over every simple observation made by someone else and MOSTLY ends up agreeing with you when she takes a second and always better look at what's been said.

The poster simply said the truth and most people are attacking him for that which i absolutely do not understand. If we want positive stories about our dearly beloved country, (its the only one we've got), then we should change and see them change their stories too.

Thanks to the poster and people like you for seeing the truth and saying it no matter how painful.
Re: Bbc, Olusosun And Nigerian Middle Class Hypocrisy by adconline(m): 12:40pm On Apr 19, 2010
"Public sector spending" in 70s and 80s that appeared on paper and never happened in real Naija. Politrickians signed bogus loans, got their kickbacks and stashed them in Swiss banks. What are we talking about? How can there not govt spending where our electricity, rail and road systems are in shamble? We talk about govt spending, have we measured stated govt spending with actual delivery of govt projects on ground? Ajaokuta would be among the public sector spending of 70s and 80s?


Please tell me who is shouting that Nigeria is heaven on earth. We all know our problems. The issue is why are people shouting that Nigeria is hell on earth.


Arguing against this write-up is reminiscent of Saddam Hussen's Information Minister Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf actions. He was telling Iraqis that their soldiers were still in control even when he knew that Saddam had been forced out of his palace by the Americans . "Today I have visited whole Baghdad city, no invaders found. You go and see how we have ousted them from this city. They are crying outside and waiting to receive bullets. They will be killed shortly."

So what is the premise of your argument, that such slums do not exist and or that folks do not live in those slums? The reason why western media pay us no good attention is because Nigeria is a nation that has an image deficit. Simply put, there is nothing positive to balance Nigeria's negative image. India for instance has some serious socio-economic problems, but it can point to some positive results like raising over 200 million of its citizens to middle, higher education that produces graduates that are competitive in the global market, nuclear power, space lunch, grooming a lot billionaires who made their fortune from Indian economy, stable democracy, opening doors to foreign investments etc.
Re: Bbc, Olusosun And Nigerian Middle Class Hypocrisy by alisigwe(m): 1:43pm On Apr 19, 2010
@paddy lo,i feel everything u saying and how optimisitic u really sounds but to sme extent i think u're misinformed and ignorant of the whole situation and u see things 4rm an outsider's point of view.come back and see 4urself u'll be the hell frustrated,4get this stats and figures they fill ur head with,u ain't knw shit abt the standard of living here,keep living in am imagined nigeria.
Re: Bbc, Olusosun And Nigerian Middle Class Hypocrisy by alisigwe(m): 1:43pm On Apr 19, 2010
@paddy lo,i feel everything u saying and how optimisitic u really sounds but to sme extent i think u're misinformed and ignorant of the whole situation and u see things 4rm an outsider's point of view.come back and see 4urself u'll be the hell frustrated,4get this stats and figures they fill ur head with,u ain't knw shit abt the standard of living here,keep living in am imagined nigeria.
Re: Bbc, Olusosun And Nigerian Middle Class Hypocrisy by odumorun: 1:48pm On Apr 19, 2010
MORE VOODOO ECONOMICS FROM PADDY LO

Your argument seems to be that since  Capitalism still exists then it is more successful than communism which collapsed. Capitalism has lasted 300 hundred years.

The trans Atlantic slave trade, also very productive lasted 500 years, any apologist for slavery during that period could have used the same argument – the system still exists as an argument to justify it. The era of Roman slavery lasted 3000 years, it also collapsed inspite of its very real achievements in Medicine , surgery and engineering, because any social system that benefits a few at the expense of the majority cannot stand the test of time. The longetivity of a crime does not in itself justify that crime

Companies and finance houses do not in themselves produce wealth, the workers in them produce it, the endless crisis in Capitalist economies arises because these workers do not earn enough to buy back what they have produced, since most of the wealth is appropriated into private hands. But these people  (the rich, a minority in any society) are not numerous  enough to constitute a market large enough to buy back what has been produced and hence yield a  profit. How many cars can company directors from ford buy, how many houses can mortgage company directors buy to live in.

Hence in a bid to artificially create a market, capitalist exploitation has destroyed - credit is introduced, people are lent money to buy things their low wages (low to allow the rich reap profits at their expense) cannot allow them to buy. They are lent money to buy houses, they are lent money to buy stereos, they are lent money to buy cars, they are lent money to go on holidays, they are lent money to christen their children, they are lent money to bury their parents. They are encouraged to live on credit they can never afford to pay back, then when the lenders call their money in the economy collapses as it did recently with the world wide recession. And when that happens the evil communist state is called in to bail the big bankers out at the same public’s expense.

If the system is as self sustaining as you assert, why are western governments providing subsidies’ to people to buy cars and restore health to the collapsing car industry, surely a system as brilliant as the one you describe should have  allow the invisible hand of the market to readjust its inefficiencies.   

If the big state is not allowed to bail out poor people why should it be allowed to bail out billionaire bankers
Re: Bbc, Olusosun And Nigerian Middle Class Hypocrisy by eros(m): 4:36pm On Apr 19, 2010
What more can i say, alot has already being said by the true Nigerians who know the problems of Nigeria and not those who think they know what we really go through.

Since everybody is talking about the problem and the root of the problem, can anybody proffer a solution to this problem? I would have proffered a solution if i had one, although the only solution that readily comes to mind is to kill all these evil leaders and politicians bleeding Nigeria dry and lets start all over again.
Re: Bbc, Olusosun And Nigerian Middle Class Hypocrisy by cap28: 10:21pm On Apr 19, 2010
paddy_lo:


u had to go back what 10yrs to get a story about indonesia that u can place here?
come on,
Indonesia faced a communist upheaval in its early yrs,
The period in your arcticle was immediately after the Asian financial crises of 1997
All the major Asian economies were affected by reduced output from factory's and slump in GDP

However Indonesia is a better place today,its people are more prosperous, Its GDP growth is solid
It is no longer a member of OPEC, Hence its not a purely commodity based economy
and its due to again a good economic model. . .based of capitalism,strong capital markets,Corporate Bond Markets and so on


paddylo you are still clinging on to this falsehood that capitalism elevates the living standards of the poor - why dont you hear from the horse's mouth what capitalism did to working people in indonesia - here is a documentary created by indonesian workers narrating their experiences at the hands of capitalism perhaps you could learn something :

http://freedocumentaries.org/teatro2.php?filmID=95&lan=en

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