FlipGamBino:
Thank you.

Ladies and Gents we have reason to celebrate. Flipcambino is in the e-house!

How far buddy?

LoJ:


How far buddy?

Oh I am doing well, Old friend. Happy New year.

MuttleyLaff:
Now for the matters you wrote about:
"It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman
-1 Corinthians 7:1

1 Corinthians 7:1 is the genesis or what originated Paul's advice

Someone clever, thought it is a good idea not to have sexual relations with a woman and asked Paul about it.

Paul improved the question, by responding that, if at all one wants to not have sexual relations with a woman, then it has to be mutually consented.
Why answer the question in this manner, it is because his reply was in the context or background of marriage.
Except if tired, women aren't biologically wired up, to want to immediately roll over and fall asleep after having sex.

Nobody is disputing the context of Paul’s reply, at least I am not. And this bug-bear of yours that a Man generally rolls over and goes to sleep after sex whilst a woman does not is rather self-indulgent and superfluous to the argument. We both agree that sex in the context of marriage cannot be carnal under any circumstances…and that is enough…. it deals with the OP’s premise.

MuttleyLaff:

If a man is on a fasting mission and praying session, then as a safety measure, such man might want to stay away from having sex, so not to have interruptions in his focused plan
but then, that isn't an excuse to deny your partner their conjugal rights on that basis and without a mutual consent.

I rather think the entire shebang is as a result of fellows becoming disgruntled at their women “shutting up shop” during fasting periods. I think the puritanical aspect came later.

MuttleyLaff:

Dont waste your charm on me

Sorry I was unaware you were being charmed!

MuttleyLaff:

If not familiar with Paul's style of writing and idiosyncrasies, then he is often misunderstood and pigeon-holed like you've just done
You also toe the afterthought line like budaatum does

Paul’s own words and his doctrinal attitudes towards women speaks for itself.

MuttleyLaff:


The wind blows wherever it wants.
Just as you can hear the wind
but can't tell where it comes from or where it is going,
so you can't explain how people are born of the Holy Spirit or how they met the Holy Spirit

And most of the time...neither can they!

FlipGamBino:


Oh I am doing well, Old friend. Happy New year.

Happy new year dear. When are You coming over here? I invite You in any place of your choosing, drink is on me. For the girls I cant promise

MuttleyLaff:


The wind blows wherever it wants.
Just as you can hear the wind
but can't tell where it comes from or where it is going,
so you can't explain how people are born of the Holy Spirit or how they met the Holy Spirit

Firstly I want to assure you that you do not bump into the Holy Spirit by accident.

Also; I guarantee you, the day you actually encounter the holy spirit not only will you be able to explain what steps you took, you will realize that a lot more than you anticipated will depend on you knowing and remembering that process.

LoJ:

Happy new year dear. When are You co.ibg over here? I invite You in any place of your choosing, drink is on me. For the girls I cant promise

hahaha...Oh the girls have to be part of the pack. As a saying goes, "Booze without chicks is like jellof rice without meat"...OK.I'm just playing, LOL.

Yes, it is carnal.
I agree.

People should not have sex in marriage.

Marriage is not meant for sex.

Sex in marriage, sorry, fasting, defies the matrimonial bed.

When you fast, you should not talk to your hubby either.

Remove your self from the world.

Oil and water don't mix.

The things of God and the things of man don't mix either.

You are either here or there.

No inbetweeners.

Jesus will spit you out!

Mujtahida:

The believing brain. Anyway let me respect your wishes and not derail your thread.

Thank you

FlipGamBino:


Now the principal reason for fasting is to enter what one can refer to as "A state of Grace", but then; this is but one of many pathways. Now the question is 'what is demanded from he who seeks to enter the "Grace of God"?, one very important requirement is maturity, within all traditions a level of general maturity is required, this includes physical, spiritual and even mental maturity, to this effect a lot of effort is put to focusing ones mind on very little through this period of fasting.

Sex is by no means canal within any period of marriage under the edicts of the Divine. As a matter of fact Sex is divine in nature. What matters more is the issue of expedience and within Sarassin's context, consent within this process. Thank you.

To begin with, i didn't make the post you quoted from. I don't know who did. So, i won't be responding to this.

Sarassin:


I don't think you thought this one through and ascribing your thoughts to the Holy Spirit is rather disingenuous. The reasoning here is flawed and disjointed, you went up a hill and came down a mountain. Like to see what the brethren have to say.

Why do you say the reasoning is flawed?

The meat of the gist is, we can't be fasting (fusing into God) and be fusing into each other as husband and wife at them same time). Is this what is flawed and disjointed?

Well, i will be damned if i ever thought of what i wrote out here.

I have never thought of fasting differently from what the Word says about it.

And trust me, no preacher has ever mentioned fusing into God during fasting to me, so if this is my personal thoughts, then i will say, Praise God'.

FlipGamBino:


hahaha...Oh the girls have to be part of the pack. As a saying goes, "Booze without chicks is like jellof rice without meat"...OK.I'm just playing, LOL.

Ahaha. Okay I will pay for the ladies if and only if Sarassin comes along. Ohh perhaps he could be fasting then

Sex is spiritual, especially to them that are spiritually minded.
Sex is a carnal experience but it's more of the Spirit than carnal...

What Apostle Paul said is more understandable... Or do you wish to be having sex while praying and fasting

When you want to fast! You should only be fasting from everything else except reading your Bible, and praying to God.

Having sex with your wife is highly spiritual and should only be avoided with consent...

Sarassin:

Aaah Cara Mia nothing can change my love for you, except when you quote dodgy verses.

How is it a doggy verse?

Sarassin:

That verse in Corinthians is quite clear, Paul pre-supposes that Sex is good,

I never said it's not.

Sarassin:

he also pre-supposes that sex during fasting is not even an issue subject to consent, I agree largely with my good friend butterflylion in his comments , though I disagree slightly with the legal largesse, I believe that the consent to be sought is that both parties “agree not to engage in sex” during a fasting period,[/b]other than that- then there should be no reason why either the husband or the wife denies the other, the pleasure of its charms or the nectar of its flower.
@ the bolded is the question. Why? What is wrong with having sex while fasting?

[quote author=Sarassin post=65413189]
I would go further and say that the use of the word “consent” is in itself a bit of a red herring since we were dealing with a patriarchy anyway, that consent was merely code for…."if the husband agrees". In reality the woman’s views on the matter were irrelevant.

Well, that may be true, but the Corinthians to whom this letter was addressed wasn't that Patriarchal, that's because of their acceptance of goddesses as Supreme deities. It was for the Jews, not necessarily for the Greeks.

We see how that manifested in women trying to bring the society into the church where women ruled over men in the society, so brought it into the Church, hence; the command for women to keep silent in Church.

And, when it comes to the bed, you'd be surprised how strong men melt. Patriarchy hardly comes up in bed. Except the man doesn't love his wife.

LoJ:

Ahaha. Okay I will pay for the ladies if and only if Sarassin comes along. Ohh perhaps he could be fasting then

Of course, a jug of Weissbier on ice for me, and an amply endowed fraulein to serve it...just to serve it ooh..nothing else!

Emmanystone:

Why do you say the reasoning is flawed?

The meat of the gist is, we can't be fasting (fusing into God) and be fusing into each other as husband and wife at them same time). Is this what is flawed and disjointed?

Well, i will be damned if i ever thought of what i wrote out here.

I have never thought of fasting differently from what the Word says about it.

And trust me, no preacher has ever mentioned fusing into God during fasting to me, so if this is my personal thoughts, then i will say, Praise God'.

Well my dear, probably you should draw a deep breathe and read it through again or maybe something was lost in transcription. If you say the Holy Spirit disclosed this to you then fine, my lips are forever sealed.

Mujtahida:
The believing brain.
Anyway let me respect your wishes and not derail your thread

Emmanystone:
Thank you

My invited guests are cultured

MizMyColi:
Yes, it is carnal.
I agree.

People should not have sex in marriage.

Marriage is not meant for sex.

Sex in marriage, sorry, fasting, defies the matrimonial bed.

When you fast, you should not talk to your hubby either.

Remove your self from the world.

Oil and water don't mix.

The things of God and the things of man don't mix either.

You are either here or there.

No inbetweeners.

Jesus will spit you out!

[img]https://s1/images/muttDuckEyed.jpg[/img]

Emmanystone:


Well, that may be true, but the Corinthians to whom this letter was addressed wasn't that Patriarchal, that's because of their acceptance of goddesses as Supreme deities. It was for the Jews, not necessarily for the Greeks.

We see how that manifested in women trying to bring the society into the church where women ruled over men in the society, so brought it into the Church, hence; the command for women to keep silent in Church.

And, when it comes to the bed, you'd be surprised how strong men melt. Patriarchy hardly comes up in bed. Except the man doesn't love his wife.

Still a bit mixed up. You say the Corinthians were not patriarchal but you then go on to say that the letters were addressed to the Jews, who were indeed highly patriarchal, so my original proposition still holds. The command to women to hold their peace in church had nothing to do with societal issues as you put it, it was more to do with the fact that early Christian leaders at that time considered that women could not think for themselves, lacked intelligence and could not hold intellectual doctrinal discourse, read the writings of Tertullian on the matter.

@bolded, I disagree entirely

Sarassin:
Still a bit mixed up.
You say the Corinthians were not patriarchal but you then go on to say that the letters were addressed to the Jews, who were indeed highly patriarchal, so my original proposition still holds.
The command to women to hold their peace in church had nothing to do with societal issues as you put it, it was more to do with the fact that early Christian leaders at that time considered that women could not think for themselves,
lacked intelligence
and could not hold intellectual doctrinal discourse,
read the writings of Tertullian on the matter.

@bolded, I disagree entirely

Are you familiar with the person or name, Priscilla?

MuttleyLaff:
Are you familiar with the person or name, Priscilla?

Yes I am

butterflyl1on:

The foundation of others who fast is different from our foundation. Also motive matters the most. Others fast because they wish to be seen and known to fast e.g the Muslims who announce theirs for everyone to know and see.

When your motive is based on what the scripture says "do not let your left hand know what the right is doing " then this is a solid foundation.

Correct. But again, there are two kinds of fasting, A declared Fasting and Inspired Fasting. There are all in the Bible. The one the Muslims do is the declared fasting, while the one you do and don't let anyone know is an inspired fasting

butterflyl1on:

Regarding the legal language used by Paul, I do not think you understood the interpretation thereof.

Paul said NEVER DENY YOURSELVES SEX AT ALL. THE ONLY TIME YOU SHOULD DO SO IS IN THE FACE OF FASTING BUT EVEN AT THAT, LET IT BE DONE VIA CONSENT.

Let Sex take place via consent during fasting? Then the clause 'Except' is useless.

This is my understanding of that clause 'Except'. Remember, this is to check immorality, hence, sex should be done regularly, BUT, when fasting and praying, a man and his wife should agree to abstain for that period. The consent there means, the woman should not by herself decide to fast without considering the feelings of her husband and vise vaser.

If we are agreeing to fast for 3 days, then for those three days, we should abstain, this is my understanding of Except in that passage.

If you say 'Except' means, we can have sex as long as we seek each others conscent to do it, will then mean, all the while couples have sex, they she seek each others conscent before they do it. It doesn't make sense.

butterflyl1on:

he is not saying do not fast and have sex. He is saying that, this should be the ONLY grounds abstinence should be done and not through hatred, strife, bitterness, etc. This is why the bible says BE ANGRY BUT SIN NOT. LET NOT THE SUN GO DOWN IN YOUR WRATH".

Then the Clause 'Except' is useless in that verse. It says have sex always, but when fasting and praying, do not. That's the only way that Except there will make any meaning.

Ordinarily, couples can not say no to each other, the only time that can happen is when they fast and pray.

butterflyl1on:

Paul meant that you can only deny yourselves sex for the right mutually agreed upon reasons and not out of some selfish reason and fasting is a good reason he gave but even at that, agreement is very important. He implied that it is better to fast and have sex in agreement than to fast and have sex in disagreement or in reverse, it is better not to have sex during fasting BASED ON AGREEMENT.

What are you even saying?

Let's take that passage again.
Good News Translation 1 Corinthians 7:1-6

1. Now, to deal with the matters you wrote about. A man does well not to marry.

2. But because there is so much immorality, every man should have his own wife, and every woman should have her own husband.

3. A man should fulfill his duty as a husband, and a woman should fulfill her duty as a wife, and each should satisfy the other's needs.

4. A wife is not the master of her own body, but her husband is; in the same way a husband is not the master of his own body, but his wife is.

5. Do not deny yourselves to each other, 'unless' you first agree to do so for a while in order to spend your time in prayer; but [b]then resume[/b]normal marital relations.In this way you will be kept from giving in to Satan's temptation because of your lack of self-control. I tell you this not as an order, but simply as a permission.

This pasage says, sex should be done always, it shd not be denied unless, when fasting and praying.

The Word Resume means, sex gets suspended for a time.

butterflyl1on:

The man and the woman as a married couple are now ONE FLESH so must come to God with ONE heart. This foundation was laid when the bible said we should not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. When we miss this foundation then we open ourselves to all sorts of errors.

Agreement is everything. Oneness is everything.

Yes, a man and his wife becomes one flesh in sex, and the foundation is solid when that happens, but that is not the issue here.

The issue here is WHY DO WE HAVE TO ABSTAIN FROM SEX DURING FASTING PERIOD?

MuttleyLaff:
I know the feeling, I left home late this morning because of leaving responses on the thread.
Even after leaving, had to find a place to park, to continue again responding

How did your day go, sir?

Sarassin:
Yes I am

What of Apollos?

Emmanystone:
How did your day go, sir?

Day went well Ma'am.
I am now just lounging on my chaise trying to unwind
Trust yours went well.

MuttleyLaff:
What of Apollos?

Uhm..yeah

.
. Something that if a human being does we'd regard them as suffering from one form of mania or the other. If you know the meaning of what you just wrote you will know that you have automatically said that your God is loveless. While love does not mean lawlessness, it also doesn't mean dictatorship.

Mujtahida:

Let tackle where I believe the thought encapsulated in the bolded takes its ultimate rise from: Because Adam sinned all sinned. Isn't that where the bolded comes from? Well, Na your believe. Adam was Adam. I am me. Ezekiel 18 v2-3

The World has sown the Whirlwind, in rebellion, hence, the consequences. No one has the right to complain at all, for even here right now, men still reject a gentle kind saviour who did no wrong. Who lived all His life helping the poor. Why did He do to be hated so?
Yet, when there's calamity, the blame is heaped on him.

With regards to the Adam you mentioned, here...
1Cor 15:21-22
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Christ is here with a new life, why remain dead in Adam, except it's a deliberate will choice(?).

Mujtahida:

The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:

“‘The parents eat sour grapes,
and the children’s teeth are set on edge’?
3 “As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel.

So I join my mouth with Jehovah and say don't tell me how I carry the burden and consequences of Adam's sin. It's all a fiction created in a book. And if my deeds or misdeeds have consequences I should be held responsible not those who are affected by it(going by your seed metaphor)

How do people even reason sef?
A fiction created in a book you just quoted to proof a point. The Jehovah whom you just concurred with can be kown only from that fictional book.
Well, here is what is writen in the fictiinal book which you quoted to exonerate yourself;
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans:3:10
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Romans:3:11
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Romans:3:12

Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Romans:3:13
Just like, 1Cor 15:21-22 says, Adam brought death, but Christ has brought Life. What you choose is what you'll have. Don't for a day think you can escape. lol.

Mujtahida:

Dictates by dictating to men to write a book, Dictates by speaking through proxies. I bet God is dictating through you now. Surely your God is a dictator cos he even commands men to love him

Yes, He rules on decrees, what can you do about it? If you don't like it, you can take a hike. This is His earth. And He reigns supreme over His territory.

He does as He pleases, only as He pleases. If you have what it takes, wait, very soon you shall die, then can stand before Him and wag your little finger on His face demanding explanations, if you can access His presence.

Mujtahida:

You were trying to show that Christian fasting is different. And I am saying how else could it be. Your faith is all about exceptionalism yet you guys are just like other men

No, we are not like the other men. We are different. We a called out people. A peculiar people, a royal priesthood, a chosen Generation. A Holy Nation. The light of the World, the Salt of the earth.

The Undead. The unkillables. We are above death. We are little gods. Shining as stars in the midst of a dark and a perverse world.

We carry God in us, they don't. We will one day sit as Kings and Priests and reign on the earth with Christ, they wouldn't.

We have a God who is both our father, and our friend at the same time, they don't.

How are we the same?

Emmanystone:


Correct. But again, there are two kinds of fasting, A declared Fasting and Inspired Fasting. There are all in the Bible. The one the Muslims do is the declared fasting, while the one you do and don't let anyone know is an inspired fasting

Let Sex take place via consent during fasting? Then the clause 'Except' is useless.

This is my understanding of that clause 'Except'. Remember, this is to check immorality, hence, sex should be done regularly, BUT, when fasting and praying, a man and his wife should agree to abstain for that period. The consent there means, the woman should not by herself decide to fast without considering the feelings of her husband and vise vaser.

If we are agreeing to fast for 3 days, then for those three days, we should abstain, this is my understanding of Except in that passage.

If you say 'Except' means, we can have sex as long as we seek each others conscent to do it, will then mean, all the while couples have sex, they she seek each others conscent before they do it. It doesn't make sense.

Then the Clause 'Except' is useless in that verse. It says have sex always, but when fasting and praying, do not. That's the only way that Except there will make any meaning.

Ordinarily, couples can not say no to each other, the only time that can happen is when they fast and pray.


What are you even saying?

Let's take that passage again.
Good News Translation 1 Corinthians 7:1-6

1. Now, to deal with the matters you wrote about. A man does well not to marry.

2. But because there is so much immorality, every man should have his own wife, and every woman should have her own husband.

3. A man should fulfill his duty as a husband, and a woman should fulfill her duty as a wife, and each should satisfy the other's needs.

4. A wife is not the master of her own body, but her husband is; in the same way a husband is not the master of his own body, but his wife is.

5. Do not deny yourselves to each other, 'unless' you first agree to do so for a while in order to spend your time in prayer; but [b]then resume[/b]normal marital relations.In this way you will be kept from giving in to Satan's temptation because of your lack of self-control. I tell you this not as an order, but simply as a permission.

This pasage says, sex should be done always, it shd not be denied unless, when fasting and praying.

The Word Resume means, sex gets suspended for a time.



Yes, a man and his wife becomes one flesh in sex, and the foundation is solid when that happens, but that is not the issue here.

The issue here is WHY DO WE HAVE TO ABSTAIN FROM SEX DURING FASTING PERIOD?

Sigh. Paul began this issue from 1st Corinthians 6 from verse 12 and continued it in chapter 7.

He first laid a foundation to the issue. Read it from chapter 6 verse 12 and then continue on chapter 7. I am sure you would understand it better.

Mujtahida:

Let tackle where I believe the thought encapsulated in the bolded takes its ultimate rise from: Because Adam sinned all sinned. Isn't that where the bolded comes from? Well, Na your believe. Adam was Adam. I am me. Ezekiel 18 v2-3

The World has sown the Whirlwind, in rebellion, hence, the consequences. No one has the right to complain at all, for even here right now, men still reject a gentle kind saviour who did no wrong. Who lived all His life helping the poor. Why did He do to be hated so?
Yet, when there's calamity, the blame is heaped on him.

With regards to the Adam you mentioned, here...
1Cor 15:21-22
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Christ is here with a new life, why remain dead in Adam, except it's a deliberate will choice(?).

Mujtahida:

The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:

“‘The parents eat sour grapes,
and the children’s teeth are set on edge’?
3 “As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel.

So I join my mouth with Jehovah and say don't tell me how I carry the burden and consequences of Adam's sin. It's all a fiction created in a book. And if my deeds or misdeeds have consequences I should be held responsible not those who are affected by it(going by your seed metaphor)

How do people even reason sef?
A fiction created in a book you just quoted to proof a point. The Jehovah whom you just concurred with can be kown only from that fictional book.
Well, here is what is writen in the fictiinal book which you quoted to exonerate yourself;
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans:3:10
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Romans:3:11
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Romans:3:12

Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Romans:3:13
Just like, 1Cor 15:21-22 says, Adam brought death, but Christ has brought Life. What you choose is what you'll have. Don't for a day think you can escape. lol.

Mujtahida:

Dictates by dictating to men to write a book, Dictates by speaking through proxies. I bet God is dictating through you now. Surely your God is a dictator cos he even commands men to love him

Yes, He rules on decrees, what can you do about it? If you don't like it, you can take a hike. This is His earth. And He reigns supreme over His territory.

He does as He pleases, only as He pleases. If you have what it takes, wait, very soon you shall die, then can stand before Him and wag your little finger on His face demanding explanations, if you can access His presence.

Mujtahida:

Something that if a human being does we'd regard them as suffering from one form of mania or the other. If you know the meaning of what you just wrote you will know that you have automatically said that your God is loveless. While love does not mean lawlessness, it also doesn't mean dictatorship.[/b]
And this is coming from some one who claimed to have been a committed Christian. Most times i wonder what kind of Christians you guys were before seeing the light of satanism to be making the kind comments you make.
When you were going about your Christian work/walk, didn't you know YHWH was a dictator? He is and there's nothing anyone can do about it. He rules on Commands and decrees, period.

What part did you play in being on earth?

@bolded, you wld want to be lawless and get away with it eh? Sorry, He loves you enough to still keep you alive even with your rebellion, but you'd reap exactly what you sow or are sowing whether you like it or yes.

[quote author=Mujtahida post=65411694]
You were trying to show that Christian fasting is different. And I am saying how else could it be. Your faith is all about exceptionalism yet you guys are just like other men

No, we are not like the other men. We are different. We a called out people. A peculiar people, a royal priesthood, a chosen Generation. A Holy Nation. The light of the World, the Salt of the earth.

The Undead. The unkillables. We are above death. We are little gods. Shining as stars in the midst of a dark and a perverse world.

We carry God in us, they don't. We will one day sit as Kings and Priests and reign on the earth with Christ, they wouldn't.

We have a God who is both our father, and our friend at the same time, they don't.

How are we the same?

MuttleyLaff:
Homosexual couples are having sex, they aren't making love. There is a difference.
Adam knew Eve, as in made love with Eve.
Cain knew his wife, as in Cain made love with his wife
Adam knew his wife again, made love again with Eve
Judah and Omar went into Tamar, both did NOT make love with, but only had sex with her
King David and Bathsheba went into each other and weren't necessarily in the real sense, making love

I think after my above up there, you're feeling the drift

I already know all except the homosexual couples.

You said, sex in marriage is not just sex but love making, as no one outside marriage can make love, hence; i asked if Homosexuals are in marriage or not.
If they are, doesn't that imply that they too are making love? But, you said No. Meaning, they are not married abi?

butterflyl1on:


Sigh. Paul began this issue from 1st Corinthians 6 from verse 12 and continued it in chapter 7.

He first laid a foundation to the issue. Read it from chapter 6 verse 12 and then continue on chapter 7. I am sure you would understand it better.

I have sir, and says what i stand for. Sex is good. Nothing sinful about it, but during Fasting and prayers abstain, but resume immediately after it.