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Atheism. God Does Not Exist. - Religion (7) - Nairaland

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Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by kovah(m): 6:08pm On Apr 28
budaatum:
Kovah, I am unfortunately pivoted on the side of western superiority over Nigeria, a side most Nigerians would shirk from holding because it would seem like denigrating my own. Unfortunately, sentiment aside, history is there to observe who had the advantage. It would depend which periods one is considering, of course, for a like for like comparison.

One indicator is history. The more developed a nation was in the past, the more historical records there are showing that development. Go and search for written history about Africa, and you'd find we hardly kept any. How could we have been as developed as nations that kept more detailed and older historical records?

Writing, another indicator, was non-existent in Nigeria until the arrival of Islam and Arabic. It is why our alphabet had to be created by westerners, and along western lines.

Now consider art. Western art had advanced way further than art had in Nigeria by the 1500s, and even our Nok art, which could be called sculptures, had been significantly superseded by the time we were making that art. The reason the Westerner stole ours was not because it was superior, but because, in their opinion, we had never been able to produce such things, and because they were in a superior position so as to steal it without us being able to do anything about it!

Religion, is another indicator of social advancement . Our religions, by the time the westerners arrived, were disjointed, and in Yorubaland, even the worship of the same gods was not universal across neighbouring societies. What Ogun and Sango requested of it's adherents in one community was not necessarily what Ogun and Sango requested in a neighbouring community, whereas, by about 1000AD, Yahweh, was pretty much supreme in most of Western Europe. They had abandoned the equivalent archaic gods of Zeus and Aphrodite, to name a couple, years before and long after some still clung on to Ogun and Sango and still do in current Nigeria! It is Yahweh's superiority that has overwhelmed our gods and turned them into what most refer to as demons today, sadly. If our gods had united and united us, Yahweh would have easily been repelled.

And in case you do not know, Islam had been invading western Nigeria long before the arrival of the westerner. Some have claimed that trans-sahara slavery, a consequence of those invasions, resulted in more people enslaved than those enslaved in the trans-atlantic slave trade!

Then look at philosophy. While Egypt, an African nation, was very well advanced in this by the beginning of the first millennium, albeit couched behind the veil of the gods Osiris et al, Europe was having much more involved discourse about philosophical ideas while Nigeria wasn't.

Now fast forward to the 16th Century. The Western European was travelling the world in very large vessels and covering distances we never imagined existed. They were using ideas and technology we knew nothing of and were able to exploit the void in our knowledge. While they were staring at the moon and planets and writing thesis about them, we were afraid to enter the forests in our backyards least gbomogbomo takes us away and sell us as slaves.

Then consider today. Yes, they impose their ideas and technology on us, but it must be noted that they do not exactly have to over exert themselves for us to accept it. And our acceptance is not out of ignorance but out of acknowledgment of the superiority of what they produce compared to what we produce. Or who amongst us would chose to purchase a made in Nigeria car or phone if they can afford a second hand western made and already used to death one? Do we even make any of these things? Even our said cars are run on imported petrol, and in a country that is amongst the top ten producers of the raw product from which that petrol is made!

And for your information, oil was first discovered at the Oloibiri Oilfield on Sunday 15 January 1956 by Shell Darcy after a lot of exploration by many other western companies. The westerners did let you go after it was discovered though as you wrongly claim, and, they kept their grubby fingers on that oil until we kicked them out with various Indigenisation Bills starting in the early 70s.

I mention all this because of the consequence of not realising as a nation, how far we have developed compared to other nations. Japan, the Land of the Rising Sun, too thought they were superior until the might of the west showed them they weren't, which propelled them to do something about it. China, the most populous nation on earth, realised how far backward they had gotten, and have done a great leap forward to rectify the situation. The Arab world took one look at the objective reality, and while they claim Allah is superior, they accept that a thatched hut in the desert can not be said to be superior to the magnificent stone buildings built in the west. They have been doing quite a lot to rectify the situation . But we Nigerians imagine a glorious past where we were superior and so do nothing to move us forward, while the reality is that we recede further backward compared to the more developing nations.

While the West base their progress on objective reality and build institutions of technology, we seem to think miracles would prevail and build temples in which to pray to gods we create with our imaginations, an ideology the west abandoned centuries ago when they realised it was taking them into darkness which we are in now!

There is a consequence to building up subjective imaginary realities in our heads and refusing to face the objective facts, and it's like believing one can survive in a room that the oxygen has been sucked out of! I think we agreed what the end of that folly is.

hmmmm interesting...All d ideal u admire in d west or wat they still strive 4 is evident in ur post... Religious freedom....Not a streamlined worship of their ideas...We had dat... Historical we had our languages and ways and surprisingly if u check Google...We have sea faring...But not as a means to impose but as trade..3 Rd oldest vessel...Find out... African were thriving in Europe b4 d west invaded Africa... Check Benin and Greek genes and know how many African were in Greek the center of enlightenment... Read the 3 musketeers again then check d author...Do a comparison on NOK and Benin art in their ages in relation to Western art.. Check lugard' s diary and d Benin wall and most in comparison to d China wall and tell me they are superior...Ur advancements as an African was cut short and an ideal dat was not
Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by kovah(m): 6:13pm On Apr 28
budaatum:
Kovah, I am unfortunately pivoted on the side of western superiority over Nigeria, a side most Nigerians would shirk from holding because it would seem like denigrating my own. Unfortunately, sentiment aside, history is there to observe who had the advantage. It would depend which periods one is considering, of course, for a like for like comparison.

One indicator is history. The more developed a nation was in the past, the more historical records there are showing that development. Go and search for written history about Africa, and you'd find we hardly kept any. How could we have been as developed as nations that kept more detailed and older historical records?

Writing, another indicator, was non-existent in Nigeria until the arrival of Islam and Arabic. It is why our alphabet had to be created by westerners, and along western lines.

Now consider art. Western art had advanced way further than art had in Nigeria by the 1500s, and even our Nok art, which could be called sculptures, had been significantly superseded by the time we were making that art. The reason the Westerner stole ours was not because it was superior, but because, in their opinion, we had never been able to produce such things, and because they were in a superior position so as to steal it without us being able to do anything about it!

Religion, is another indicator of social advancement . Our religions, by the time the westerners arrived, were disjointed, and in Yorubaland, even the worship of the same gods was not universal across neighbouring societies. What Ogun and Sango requested of it's adherents in one community was not necessarily what Ogun and Sango requested in a neighbouring community, whereas, by about 1000AD, Yahweh, was pretty much supreme in most of Western Europe. They had abandoned the equivalent archaic gods of Zeus and Aphrodite, to name a couple, years before and long after some still clung on to Ogun and Sango and still do in current Nigeria! It is Yahweh's superiority that has overwhelmed our gods and turned them into what most refer to as demons today, sadly. If our gods had united and united us, Yahweh would have easily been repelled.

And in case you do not know, Islam had been invading western Nigeria long before the arrival of the westerner. Some have claimed that trans-sahara slavery, a consequence of those invasions, resulted in more people enslaved than those enslaved in the trans-atlantic slave trade!

Then look at philosophy. While Egypt, an African nation, was very well advanced in this by the beginning of the first millennium, albeit couched behind the veil of the gods Osiris et al, Europe was having much more involved discourse about philosophical ideas while Nigeria wasn't.

Now fast forward to the 16th Century. The Western European was travelling the world in very large vessels and covering distances we never imagined existed. They were using ideas and technology we knew nothing of and were able to exploit the void in our knowledge. While they were staring at the moon and planets and writing thesis about them, we were afraid to enter the forests in our backyards least gbomogbomo takes us away and sell us as slaves.

Then consider today. Yes, they impose their ideas and technology on us, but it must be noted that they do not exactly have to over exert themselves for us to accept it. And our acceptance is not out of ignorance but out of acknowledgment of the superiority of what they produce compared to what we produce. Or who amongst us would chose to purchase a made in Nigeria car or phone if they can afford a second hand western made and already used to death one? Do we even make any of these things? Even our said cars are run on imported petrol, and in a country that is amongst the top ten producers of the raw product from which that petrol is made!

And for your information, oil was first discovered at the Oloibiri Oilfield on Sunday 15 January 1956 by Shell Darcy after a lot of exploration by many other western companies. The westerners did let you go after it was discovered though as you wrongly claim, and, they kept their grubby fingers on that oil until we kicked them out with various Indigenisation Bills starting in the early 70s.

I mention all this because of the consequence of not realising as a nation, how far we have developed compared to other nations. Japan, the Land of the Rising Sun, too thought they were superior until the might of the west showed them they weren't, which propelled them to do something about it. China, the most populous nation on earth, realised how far backward they had gotten, and have done a great leap forward to rectify the situation. The Arab world took one look at the objective reality, and while they claim Allah is superior, they accept that a thatched hut in the desert can not be said to be superior to the magnificent stone buildings built in the west. They have been doing quite a lot to rectify the situation . But we Nigerians imagine a glorious past where we were superior and so do nothing to move us forward, while the reality is that we recede further backward compared to the more developing nations.

While the West base their progress on objective reality and build institutions of technology, we seem to think miracles would prevail and build temples in which to pray to gods we create with our imaginations, an ideology the west abandoned centuries ago when they realised it was taking them into darkness which we are in now!

There is a consequence to building up subjective imaginary realities in our heads and refusing to face the objective facts, and it's like believing one can survive in a room that the oxygen has been sucked out of! I think we agreed what the end of that folly is.

hmmmm interesting...All d ideal u admire in d west or wat they still strive 4 is evident in ur post... Religious freedom....Not a streamlined worship of their ideas...We had dat... Historical we had our languages and ways and surprisingly if u check Google...We have sea faring...But not as a means to impose but as trade..3 Rd oldest vessel...Find out... African were thriving in Europe b4 d west invaded Africa... Check Benin and Greek genes and know how many African were in Greek the center of enlightenment... Read the 3 musketeers again then check d author...Do a comparison on NOK and Benin art in their ages in relation to Western art.. Check lugard' s diary and d Benin wall and most in comparison to d China wall and tell me they are superior...Ur advancements as an African was cut short ...Now check modern music... Science... Technologies.... Education...The west is afraid of u...They will not willing acknowledge africa
Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by vaxx: 10:38pm On Apr 28
[quote author=budaatum post=67106733]
Kovah, I am unfortunately pivoted on the side of western superiority over Nigeria, a side most Nigerians would shirk from holding because it would seem like denigrating my own. Unfortunately, sentiment aside, history is there to observe who had the advantage. It would depend which periods one is considering, of course, for a like for like comparison.
this cash my attention and i do not feel like living it unchallenged, it is a dishonest write-up. European rewriting the history to favor them does not make it true, it is just a way of spreading falsehood in favor of truth, of course we are colonized, enslave and brainwashed but some of us have been emancipated. and i am proud to tell you i am one out of many.

One indicator is history. The more developed a nation was in the past, the more historical records there are showing that development. Go and search for written history about Africa, and you'd find we hardly kept any. How could we have been as developed as nations that kept more detailed and older historical records?
this is false, history and record are well kept in form of oral literature in sub Saharan African and it was passed down to us till date while some countries in Africa such as Ethiopia as a well documented history and likewise Egypt. our tribal races have inherent Knowledge and Wisdom about herbal-ism, ancient medical and surgical treatments, climatic warnings, study of visible stars and planets, Sirius movements, water conservation methods, law of cause and effect, preservation of old tradition that has exist earlier before them. while some still used it today though knowledge fading off quickly due to abandonment.

Writing, another indicator, was non-existent in Nigeria until the arrival of Islam and Arabic. It is why our alphabet had to be created by westerners, and along western lines.
this is another error, there was nothing like NIGERIA before the arrival of the colonial master,every tribe or races has a way of communication that is not limited to speech witting, using Yoruba has a case study, we have a develop mailing system called aroko. aroko then is our lexicon ,which is used among communities, kings to kings, and friends to friends to send their message and wish to each representative. it is true that the Europe help develop our lexicons but that was when we have been colonized to act like them, so i will say they help us develop our lexicons to suits their preferences not ours.

Now consider art. Western art had advanced way further than art had in Nigeria by the 1500s, and even our Nok art, which could be called sculptures, had been significantly superseded by the time we were making that art. The reason the Westerner stole ours was not because it was superior, but because, in their opinion, we had never been able to produce such things, and because they were in a superior position so as to steal it without us being able to do anything about it!
Another misconstrued view, Africa - the entire continent and its people not only Nigeria alone - was raped. Plain and simple.Had this never happened, it is fair to say that Africa would by now rival North America in wealth, the evidence was there, the old malian king weath was estimated to be close to 500 billion dollars which is yet to be matched till now. even rival East Asia in technology, and everyone else in every other aspect. Much of what we African people had/has contributed to the cultures into which they were forcefully displaced is ignored. We contributed music, art, architecture, a rich history (much of which was blotted out), language, food, science, and so much more.

Religion, is another indicator of social advancement . Our religions, by the time the westerners arrived, were disjointed, and in Yorubaland, even the worship of the same gods was not universal across neighbouring societies. What Ogun and Sango requested of it's adherents in one community was not necessarily what Ogun and Sango requested in a neighbouring community, whereas, by about 1000AD, Yahweh, was pretty much supreme in most of Western Europe. They had abandoned the equivalent archaic gods of Zeus and Aphrodite, to name a couple, years before and long after some still clung on to Ogun and Sango and still do in current Nigeria! It is Yahweh's superiority that has overwhelmed our gods and turned them into what most refer to as demons today, sadly. If our gods had united and united us, Yahweh would have easily been repelled.
Another flawed point. African as a whole do not take religion into extreme the way the western took it, we see it as part of our culture , and therefore do not not separate it as a difference identity, in fact there was no different between ogun and osun adherents as the measures of piety was not based on what you adhere to but what you contribute to society at large, if you are a shango adherent but spread significant impact to our society, ogun adherent or obatanla adherent will acknowledge it and see it as part of one family,he or she will even seek your blessing.we do not have a face value religion. we are one as a whole. Europe paganism is not lost as it still rooted into Christianity. catholic still keep it intact. and our oisha turning into demons was as result of brainwashing and marketing strategy of the missionaries. our history was rewrite to favor colonial master.

And in case you do not know, Islam had been invading western Nigeria long before the arrival of the westerner. Some have claimed that trans-sahara slavery, a consequence of those invasions, resulted in more people enslaved than those enslaved in the trans-atlantic slave trade!
sure, our first contact as omo ile ka ro oji ire with Islam were the people from mali. we were dealing with horses, cola nut and other commodities from them. even the aid of Portuguese guns enhance the slavery business. in fact the slavery was a trade and not consider irrational, as Africa then was in a stage of renaissance. oyo was a good location to raise cow since the area of the most populated muslim area are infected with tsetse fly and this is also one of the reasons the fulanis((the then muslim) also find south west interesting and good home to raise their precious animal.

Then look at philosophy. While Egypt, an African nation, was very well advanced in this by the beginning of the first millennium, albeit couched behind the veil of the gods Osiris et al, Europe was having much more involved discourse about philosophical ideas while Nigeria wasn't
.flawed as usual, there was not Nigeria not until 1914, it will be honored and more intellectual of you to talk about the city state like oyo empire and other empire that was there before the arrival of the Portuguese in 15 century ,the westerner do not bring anything new to us as a whole, apart from their own commercial and business techniques that was established to served their own purpose. before they came with their brand of administration system, we already had a functional social system, for example , social club, occupational guide, leagues of traders and other progressive organization were on the run functioning and moving the city forward. so philosophically we have been expanding,they only came to interrupt with their own systems by applying force.And ii hope you know the difficulty it involve learnning a new system from foundation. the diversionary. this is what is still affecting us till date, we are yet to understand the system because it does not fit into our philosophy.

Now fast forward to the 16th Century. The Western European was travelling the world in very large vessels and covering distances we never imagined existed. They were using ideas and technology we knew nothing of and were able to exploit the void in our knowledge. While they were staring at the moon and planets and writing thesis about them, we were afraid to enter the forests in our backyards least gbomogbomo takes us away and sell us as slaves.
our land is rich and vital, so the need to exploit beyond our horizons was not of important yet we still managed to cover spaces of land within us, there was a good relationship between the kushite and ghana empire, they deal in Gold and salt, military techniques were exchanged. oyo empire too with her ashanti empire were also of important trading partner, and this was the reason many southerner(yoruba) had Ghanaian heritage , like myself, my family house is still in Ghana. it is of about 150 years. in fact that is my second home. The west use to be like us not until when their economy begin to crumble,looking for new market, raw material and so many other valuable item to strengthen back the fallen economy. so their discomfort push them out. have you ask yourself why Chinese were not influx of Africa? despite their military strength as at then . most of the technology and food that was later adopted by the west were also stolen, example the abacus system that developed the modern day computer happens to be a china/ egypt technology for counting of numbers, the gun powder known as bullet technology too was also stolen from the arabs/muslim during the crusader war, the arabs/muslim do not hold it, it was originally found in china as a result of chemical mistake prepared to increase lifespan. even fruits like sugar cane was discover during the crusader war and orange were taken from the Muslim who traded in Europe.... and also do not forget the Arabic numerals
Then consider today. Yes, they impose their ideas and technology on us, but it must be noted that they do not exactly have to over exert themselves for us to accept it. And our acceptance is not out of ignorance but out of acknowledgment of the superiority of what they produce compared to what we produce. Or who amongst us would chose to purchase a made in Nigeria car or phone if they can afford a second hand western made and already used to death one? Do we even make any of these things? Even our said cars are run on imported petrol, and in a country that is amongst the top ten producers of the raw product from which that petrol is made!
adopting and taking an ideology that is entire different from us is a big challenged and that is why we found ourselves in this big mess. Singapore leaders were visionary enough to realized this quick, they draw a master plan of their economy with their culture as a center point, i am sure you know the position of Singapore today, SOUTH korea refuse to copy japan system, though they were colonized by them, they also set up their own economical plan reflecting their cuiltural system. you and i knows the position of south korea today, No country can developed coping people culture. we all have different beginning. this is what Tanzania most respected leader says '' lets take what is benefiting in their culture and discard the rest'' Julius Nyerere of blessed memory. so we are here today because the we fail to accept it.

And for your information, oil was first discovered at the Oloibiri Oilfield on Sunday 15 January 1956 by Shell Darcy after a lot of exploration by many other western companies. The westerners did let you go after it was discovered though as you wrongly claim, and, they kept their grubby fingers on that oil until we kicked them out with various Indigenisation Bills starting in the early 70s.
Nigeria itself was created purposely for business, to enrich colonial master and Britain, we are city state earlier before we are forced against our will, every race and tribe of the NOK civilization that spread from the northern kaduna to every other part were united, we had no oil then, yet we are prosperous, it should be noted to you that we are majorly farmers, and the product like cotton and cocoa that the colonial brought to us do well in our lands and we were able to reproduce lots of it. which the return was heavily utilized to develop Britain. we Africa will have be like China today, but the colonial division has destroyed our fabric of unity. The Poison will inherit from each colonial masters is embedded in our mind till today, we still copy the colonial religions and his way of thinking and badly hate ourselves , check what is go on in Nigeria north, there will be noting like religious war, because it does not exist before the colony. . oyo empire empires is bigger than the many european empire and our city states were well organised before the backwards arrival of the white.



I mention all this because of the consequence of not realising as a nation, how far we have developed compared to other nations. Japan, the Land of the Rising Sun, too thought they were superior until the might of the west showed them they weren't, which propelled them to do something about it. China, the most populous nation on earth, realised how far backward they had gotten, and have done a great leap forward to rectify the situation. The Arab world took one look at the objective reality, and while they claim Allah is superior, they accept that a thatched hut in the desert can not be said to be superior to the magnificent stone buildings built in the west. They have been doing quite a lot to rectify the situation . But we Nigerians imagine a glorious past where we were superior and so do nothing to move us forward, while the reality is that we recede further backward compared to the more developing nations.
This does not in anyway had anything to do with pre-colonial past, we were quite evolving in our own way,not until the back stabber put a dagger into it. so way forward is to develop our own master plan and address it in a way that will solve our problem and not in a way that will honor the west. we are people of different background with different focus.

While the West base their progress on objective reality and build institutions of technology, we seem to think miracles would prevail and build temples in which to pray to gods we create with our imaginations, an ideology the west abandoned centuries ago when they realised it was taking them into darkness which we are in now!
The west has a culture and value system they protect, Democracy is a Greek culture,it has been used for more than 2000 years . hope you know the importance of Greek development in Europe civilization , the British royal system has been for centuries, they are still respecting it. same thing in many Europe state. where their culture has been preserved. they understand the Yoruba proverb that says '' the river that forget its origin will dry away''

There is a consequence to building up subjective imaginary realities in our heads and refusing to face the objective facts, and it's like believing one can survive in a room that the oxygen has been sucked out of! I think we agreed what the end of that folly is.
it is neither objective nor subjective, i wonder how you manage to push this to it, it is what to do to make it better? we should work rather than talk . budatuum . your write up is so full of misinformation.

1 Like

Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by budaatum: 12:52am On Apr 29
[quote author=vaxx post=67114886][/quote]
You are free to believe what you wish to believe. We are talking about the entire area known today as Nigeria, and is it not being suggested that we had nothing before colonisation, but that at the time of the clash, there were many ways in which the west was far ahead of us, and are still way ahead of us today.

One thing to consider is that no underdeveloped nation has ever conquered a more developed one. The fact remains that they sent a small number of people to our land and were able to over run us and impose their ways on us, which indeed includes rewriting our history, and which alone shows how mightier than us they must have been. If we were able, we would have kicked them out, but we didn't, eventually couldn't, and can't now. Wake up early enough on Sunday and watch people go to worship at the temples built to honour the gods they imposed on us!

As to the way forward, Nigeria is a sovereign country ruled by Nigerians, and it is rather disingenuous to keep claiming the west is responsible for how we are today, as we have had enough time to take our destiny into our own hands despite the fact that western influence is woven into our current ideological dna. We live in an interconnected world and just have to make the most of it as quite a lot of other nations that were colonised have done.

1 Like

Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by Hati13(m): 12:52am On Apr 29
budaatum,

Ethiopia for example had kept her history in written form using her own script known Geez and foreign also from 1st millennium BC onwards. Geez is an old Semitic language on the same level as Latin when it comes to importance. The Armenian script was driven from Geez. We still use Geez (Ethiopic) for our language like Amharic, Tigrinya, etc......

North Sudan and Egypt had also recorded their history in written form from very ancient period onwards.

2 Likes

Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by budaatum: 1:16am On Apr 29
kovah:
hmmmm interesting...All d ideal u admire in d west or wat they still strive 4 is evident in ur post...
And I wish my admiration were misplaced, but I cannot claim that to be the case considering my personal experience in both places.

Ordinary illnesses are ravaging our nation but who is spending billions trying to eradicate those illnesses? Westerners! And what are we doing? Praying! Do you know there are more Nigerian doctors practising outside Nigeria than remain in Nigeria? Come to UK to see where they would rather work. Not one single person would chose Nigerian healthcare over what prevails in Europe. Most would also choose to go outside Nigeria to study if they had the means. Go to any airport in Nigeria to witness the direction Nigerians would rather travel. Europe. Ask them why, and they'd tell you. Check the flow of money, and you'd see where ordinary folks send theirs. Nigeria. And not the other way round unless you stole it and were looking for a place to hide it, or were buying the superior commodities one can't get in Nigeria.

But that's all today, I guess. I've said what the past was like, and vaxx has detailed an opposing view. If we had been superior, our influences would have dominated the western world, but that does not seem to be the case, unfortunately, and only a smattering of our stuff seems to have travelled outside our nation, unless one considered our people, and our financial wealth, which just further increase our poverty more than anything else.

1 Like

Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by budaatum: 1:26am On Apr 29
Hati13:
budaatum,

Ethiopia for example had kept her history in written form using her own script known Geez and foreign also from 1st millennium BC onwards. Geez is an old Semitic language on the same level as Latin when it comes to importance. The Armenian script was driven from Geez. We still use Geez (Ethiopic) for our language like Amharic, Tigrinya, etc......

North Sudan and Egypt had also recorded their history in written form from very ancient period onwards.
Thanks for your input Hati13. Egypt, which is in Africa, at one point was way more advanced than the whole of Europe. Writing was done there long before the Europeans formed script, and the societies were way more developed. Ordinary Timbuktu in the 12th century had a place of learning comparable to any place of learning in existence in Europe. It was a depository for thousands of books and thousands of people went there to study and learn.

Nowhere in the area known as Nigeria today had anything comparable to any of these is my point, and not that the entire Africa was less advanced than Europe.
Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by kovah(m): 3:11am On Apr 29
budaatum:

And I wish my admiration were misplaced, but I cannot claim that to be the case considering my personal experience in both places.

Ordinary illnesses are ravaging our nation but who is spending billions trying to eradicate those illnesses? Westerners! And what are we doing? Praying! Do you know there are more Nigerian doctors practising outside Nigeria than remain in Nigeria? Come to UK to see where they would rather work. Not one single person would chose Nigerian healthcare over what prevails in Europe. Most would also choose to go outside Nigeria to study if they had the means. Go to any airport in Nigeria to witness the direction Nigerians would rather travel. Europe. Ask them why, and they'd tell you. Check the flow of money, and you'd see where ordinary folks send theirs. Nigeria. And not the other way round unless you stole it and were looking for a place to hide it, or were buying the superior commodities one can't get in Nigeria.

But that's all today, I guess. I've said what the past was like, and vaxx has detailed an opposing view. If we had been superior, our influences would have dominated the western world, but that does not seem to be the case, unfortunately, and only a smattering of our stuff seems to have travelled outside our nation, unless one considered our people, and our financial wealth, which just further increase our poverty more than anything else.
vaxx IS NO historian...but he found out all that....Some I didn't even know about....D west was built on d backbone of Africa through exploitations... Check Western history and d simple reason is this...They gave u a comb not as a gift but as a trade...It's still happening today.... Blood diamonds ask urself y...No refineries in one of d largest oil producing nation...Ask urself y...The taxes u pay by being there is their major source of income.... they have no product base except "the comb"... It's made by us and so superior...Look for the book how the west underdeveloped Africa...I think dats d title...It's sad dat most Africans share ur veiws...And don't ask y educated Westerners are in Africa and not their land flowing with milk and honey...In spite of our diseases and instability..Like I said before ur reality shouldn't b based on what someone else has told u is real but looking at all d available information and judging for urself wat is real...I am not saying Nigeria but Africa...Or d UK but Westerners as oppose to Easterners
Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by danvon(m): 10:06am On Apr 29
vaxx:


Nigeria itself was created purposely for business, to enrich colonial master and Britain, we are city state earlier before we are forced against our will, every race and tribe of the NOK civilization that spread from the northern kaduna to every other part were united, we had no oil then, yet we are prosperous, it should be noted to you that we are majorly farmers, and the product like cotton and cocoa that the colonial brought to us do well in our lands and we were able to reproduce lots of it. which the return was heavily utilized to develop Britain. we Africa will have be like China today, but the colonial division has destroyed our fabric of unity. The Poison will inherit from each colonial masters is embedded in our mind till today, we still copy the colonial religions and his way of thinking and badly hate ourselves , check what is go on in Nigeria north, there will be noting like religious war, because it does not exist before the colony oyo empire empires is bigger than the many european empire and our city states were well organised before the backwards arrival of the white

.

I don't understand the conversation but I just wanted to address this, there was a Jihad going on in Nigeria the Islamic Jihad of Usman Dan fodio the Jihad destroyed the Oyo Empire although the Oyo civil war did most of the job, it was British colonial system that put an end to it so correct your point
Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by vaxx: 11:31am On Apr 29
budaatum:

You are free to believe what you wish to believe. We are talking about the entire area known today as Nigeria, and is it not being suggested that we had nothing before colonisation, but that at the time of the clash, there were many ways in which the west was far ahead of us, and are still way ahead of us today.

One thing to consider is that no underdeveloped nation has ever conquered a more developed one. The fact remains that they sent a small number of people to our land and were able to over run us and impose their ways on us, which indeed includes rewriting our history, and which alone shows how mightier than us they must have been. If we were able, we would have kicked them out, but we didn't, eventually couldn't, and can't now. Wake up early enough on Sunday and watch people go to worship at the temples built to honour the gods they imposed on us!

As to the way forward, Nigeria is a sovereign country ruled by Nigerians, and it is rather disingenuous to keep claiming the west is responsible for how we are today, as we have had enough time to take our destiny into our own hands despite the fact that western influence is woven into our current ideological dna. We live in an interconnected world and just have to make the most of it as quite a lot of other nations that were colonised have done.
it is not about believing in whatever i want to believe, it is about where is the evidence? look out for lious gates document on African empire. there was no evidence to suggest that the west were far ahead of us, in fact it is the opposite . life was better not only in the current area known as Nigeria today but other part of Africa before the industrial revolution in Europe, so much less organization was required in our part of world than northern Europe. well, we ma suffered a bit but not as being as barbaric as other cultures at that time! we were simply not used to the malignant cultures they were exposed to starting in the middle ages. One reason it seems Africa we have no history is that before the slave trade started to destabilize our continent, we are not expose to the same degree of huge wars, maniac rulers, religions persecution and other stuff that make European history so fun to read. And even though Africa had slavery, slavery in African societies was not by far as bad as slavery in the arab world or America. It was more akin to serfdom in several ways.


Greek war lord, Alexandra the great conquer Persian empire that were more wealth and prosperous than them, so it not true that no underdeveloped can conquered more developed one and likewise Egypt was also conquer despite their known development by the same Alexandra. read much about Kush, Axum, the Mali Kingdom, Ghana empire. not today Ghana. All of these civilizations were in Africa. The political system, buildings,organised society, market, trading etc... were present in Africa thousands of years before Europe rose at times when Europeans were living in caves…. It's an historical fact. the power of guns and violence brings us down just like how the Romans/west were once defeated by the arab/Muslim during the crusader war. we were used against ourselves, for instance the ashanti empire headed once defeated the British army, with the assistance of a woman known as nana asentewa, when the golden stool wanted to be taken, the British retreat and equipped am from Yoruba tribe and Hausa then to fight the ashantis. though the succeed but could not go away with the stool. the Zulu people of south Africa once also conquer them and likewise the bini kingdom. now our people is we are not original anymore . but imitators. we are not them and the are not us, we have different background with different focus. we cop their way of life yet it is not helping, we cop their system of government yet it is not helping, we cop their religion yet is not solving it, i think this is the time we need to sit together as a people and consider what should be our priority instead of imitating.


i agree with your last statement. we should defend our self now when we have gotten the freedom. we may blame them for our past woes under the colony but the past is no longer with us. therefore we cannot blame them for our present woes. we are not under colony any longer.
Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by vaxx: 12:05pm On Apr 29
danvon:


I don't understand the conversation but I just wanted to address this, there was a Jihad going on in Nigeria the Islamic Jihad of Usman Dan fodio the Jihad destroyed the Oyo Empire although the Oyo civil war did most of the job, it was British colonial system that put an end to it so correct your point
when i mean colony, it is not about the west only, the babals/muslim also has their indirect rule in our lands. sokoto was a former Hausa caliphate before usman danfodio spread his Islamic mission. when Muslim were not here, when Christian were not here. we all live peacefully, nothing like religious war.
Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by budaatum: 1:10pm On Apr 29
kovah:
vaxx IS NO historian...but he found out all that....Some I didn't even know about....D west was built on d backbone of Africa through exploitations... Check Western history and d simple reason is this...They gave u a comb not as a gift but as a trade...It's still happening today.... Blood diamonds ask urself y...No refineries in one of d largest oil producing nation...Ask urself y...The taxes u pay by being there is their major source of income.... they have no product base except "the comb"... It's made by us and so superior...Look for the book how the west underdeveloped Africa...I think dats d title...It's sad dat most Africans share ur veiws...And don't ask y educated Westerners are in Africa and not their land flowing with milk and honey...In spite of our diseases and instability..Like I said before ur reality shouldn't b based on what someone else has told u is real but looking at all d available information and judging for urself wat is real...I am not saying Nigeria but Africa...Or d UK but Westerners as oppose to Easterners
So, someone must have told it to me? I guess you are right, after all someone did write the books I read on the topic. Regardless, one still has to make up ones own mind after reading numerous books on both sides of a subject. Or are you suggesting one read one book and run with it?

Not all Africans share my view, and it is not the case that the west was more developed than everywhere in Africa at all times. There were some parts of Africa i.e. Egypt, that were very advanced in their day. Unfortunately, there is no evidence that the area known as Nigeria was ever one of them. There are no significant historical artifacts showing development of the type found in the west, or Egypt, for that matter, and we still have not dug any to rewrite our history to show such claimed past prowess. Note how vaxx did not even bother mentioning the Oyo Empire in his list of African empires!

Vaxx claims there was no significant wars or slavery prior to the arrival of invaders. What he does know and does not mention was that there actually were wars, and for the express purpose of acquiring land, slaves and for sacrifices to the gods, for I am certain he knows that Ogun and Sango required human sacrifices though you would find it hard to find it in the records. As hard as finding evidence of human sacrifices in Europe I dare mention, though there is about 1500 years between when it happened in either.

Anyway, it is a very emotive topic, and most will take sides. However, the evidence is out there that the area today known today as Nigeria has not got a lot to claim we were ever more advanced than the western world, to my greatest disappointment.

I just hope our great days are ahead of us.
Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by kovah(m): 2:07pm On Apr 29
budaatum:

So, someone must have told it to me? I guess you are right, after all someone did write the books I read on the topic. Regardless, one still has to make up ones own mind after reading numerous books on both sides of a subject. Or are you suggesting one read one book and run with it?

Not all Africans share my view, and it is not the case that the west was more developed than everywhere in Africa at all times. There were some parts of Africa i.e. Egypt, that were very advanced in their day. Unfortunately, there is no evidence that the area known as Nigeria was ever one of them. There are no significant historical artifacts showing development of the type found in the west, or Egypt, for that matter, and we still have not dug any to rewrite our history to show such claimed past prowess. Note how vaxx did not even bother mentioning the Oyo Empire in his list of African empires!

Vaxx claims there was no significant wars or slavery prior to the arrival of invaders. What he does know and does not mention was that there actually were wars, and for the express purpose of acquiring land, slaves and for sacrifices to the gods, for I am certain he knows that Ogun and Sango required human sacrifices though you would find it hard to find it in the records. As hard as finding evidence of human sacrifices in Europe I dare mention, though there is about 1500 years between when it happened in either.

Anyway, it is a very emotive topic, and most will take sides. However, the evidence is out there that the area today known today as Nigeria has not got a lot to claim we were ever more advanced than the western world, to my greatest disappointment.

I just hope our great days are ahead of us.
do a research on Kano and Benin...U will find ur historical evidence there... Now imagination a cure or preventive method dat preserved a people from Extinction...No backward people could come up with such knowledge...Now imagination dat cure or preventive method advancing with time..Not interrupted...The west had wars to numerous to mention...We had wars too...Human scarification and cannibalism were all world related issue not just Africa or Nigeria in particular... Those practices were done by d Westerners too in Sreach of higher purpose or hunger as d case may be... Diseases were a world wide problem too....The black plague or death was one of such dat engulfed Europe...the incurable flu no Western medicine has been able to combat successful....I don't just read a book or two or three to have a vision of d world before my exsistance...Or take d Victor's account on history... the west is so advance on d back of exploitations....Even their own history acknowledges dat....Now the exploitations have taken a new twist... Intellectual harvesting....
Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by budaatum: 3:17pm On Apr 29
Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by budaatum: 3:21pm On Apr 29
kovah:
Now imagination a cure or preventive method dat preserved a people from Extinction...No backward people could come up with such knowledge...Now imagination dat cure or preventive method advancing with time..
Why should I imagine it? Is it not real? What cure or preventive medicine was that please?
Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by budaatum: 3:22pm On Apr 29
kovah:
Human scarification and cannibalism were all world related issue not just Africa or Nigeria in particular... Those practices were done by d Westerners too
Like I said, about 1500 years before us!
Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by budaatum: 3:57pm On Apr 29
kovah:
I don't just read a book or two or three to have a vision of d world before my exsistance...Or take d Victor's account on history... the west is so advance on d back of exploitations....Even their own history acknowledges dat....Now the exploitations have taken a new twist... Intellectual harvesting....
I am sure you could not have read only one book, but to claim I have not read any at all, or was repeating what I was told, is rather demeaning, don't you think?

And one does not only have to read the history of it but sociological development too. Take the relationship to gods, for instance. Start with the gods of Europe, and how the Europeans evolved their ideas of the gods over time. First they had many gods who intervened in everything, including the wind and individual peoples' fate. But gradually, they realised these gods of things were so absurd that they abandoned them all for one superior god who intervened in the wind and individual fate. 1800 years later, here they are abandoning that one god and becoming atheists. Now consider where we are on the god evolution scale. Atheism is only just now raising its head in Nigeria, and I reckon we would be bowing our heads to those gods for another hundred or so years. By then, the Europeans would most likely have built heaven itself!
Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by kovah(m): 4:36pm On Apr 29
budaatum:

I am sure you could not have read only one book, but to claim I have not read any at all, or was repeating what I was told, is rather demeaning, don't you think?

And one does not only have to read the history of it but sociological development too. Take the relationship to gods, for instance. Start with the gods of Europe, and how the Europeans evolved their ideas of the gods over time. First they had many gods who intervened in everything, including the wind and individual peoples' fate. But gradually, they realised these gods of things were so absurd that they abandoned them all for one superior god who intervened in the wind and individual fate. 1800 years later, here they are abandoning that one god and becoming atheists. Now consider where we are on the god evolution scale. Atheism is only just now raising its head in Nigeria, and I reckon we would be bowing our heads to those gods for another hundred or so years. By then, the Europeans would most likely have built heaven itself!



a cure dat ensured ur survival before d Western intervention...No doubt dat d rest of the world seems more advanced than Africa most of our knowledge as of now comes from them to even understanding ourselves dat not withstanding...Only a very few Westerners would admit dat Africans are a unique brand of humans... Physically Intellectually equal to the rest of d world... Reading a book or two is helpful...Not saying u don't read....But it wld b a self serving nature dat would make me think dat in all generations of Africans dat have been on dis earth dat there were not intelligent ones..Dat found ways in politics sciences religious partices and other forms of enlightenment...Considering dat I am who I am now...Means dat there were people like me...If there were people like me then...One or two may have some ideas in some aspect of life is all I am saying...We had our development cut short because d smartest person in d room believed we were d dumbest...But have u ever thought dat our dumbness may b d smartest...
Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by budaatum: 8:10pm On Apr 29
Please note, I have not claimed Europeans or westerner are intellectually superior to anyone. I live amongst them and have come across some very stupid people just as I have amongst black people and Nigerians! If I weren't intellectually more able than some of them, I and many others could not be in positions whereby we boss them around and get paid more than some of them for doing so!

I will take your admission that our progress was cut short as in, if it wasn't we might, or would, have progressed much further than they had. Facts for what prevailed are there for anyone curious enough to check.

kovah:
a cure dat ensured ur survival before d Western intervention...No doubt dat d rest of the world seems more advanced than Africa most of our knowledge as of now comes from them to even understanding ourselves dat not withstanding...Only a very few Westerners would admit dat Africans are a unique brand of humans... Physically Intellectually equal to the rest of d world... Reading a book or two is helpful...Not saying u don't read....But it wld b a self serving nature dat would make me think dat in all generations of Africans dat have been on dis earth dat there were not intelligent ones..Dat found ways in politics sciences religious partices and other forms of enlightenment...Considering dat I am who I am now...Means dat there were people like me...If there were people like me then...One or two may have some ideas in some aspect of life is all I am saying...We had our development cut short because d smartest person in d room believed we were d dumbest...But have u ever thought dat our dumbness may b d smartest...
Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by kovah(m): 8:27pm On Apr 29
budaatum:
Please note, I have not claimed Europeans or westerner are intellectually superior to anyone. I live amongst them and have come across some very stupid people just as I have amongst black people and Nigerians! If I weren't intellectually more able than some of them, I and many others could not be in positions whereby we boss them around and get paid more than some of them for doing so!

I will take your admission that our progress was cut short as in, if it wasn't we might, or would, have progressed much further than they had. Facts for what prevailed are there for anyone curious enough to check.

I never said u were less intelligent or even more intelligent than them.....I am talking about misconceptions....I apologise if it came across as insulting

1 Like

Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by budaatum: 12:41am On Apr 30
kovah:
I never said u were less intelligent or even more intelligent than them.....I am talking about misconceptions....I apologise if it came across as insulting
I got tetchy and put you in crossfire when I took a shot at someone else. I apologise too.

P.s. I told you how nice you are to me, didn't I, lol.
Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by budaatum: 2:01am On Apr 30
This, is the sort of brain washing by the rewriting of history that you spoke of. There are very many parts of the world including Africa, that did not have to wait for Yahwehism to give them equal rights and responsibilities.
Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by MuttleyLaff: 2:12am On Apr 30
budaatum:
Thanks for your input Hati13. Egypt, which is in Africa, at one point was way more advanced than the whole of Europe. Writing was done there long before the Europeans formed script, and the societies were way more developed.
Ordinary Timbuktu in the 12th century had a place of learning comparable to any place of learning in existence in Europe.
It was a depository for thousands of books and thousands of people went there to study and learn
In the 14th century and not the 12th century

budaatum:
Nowhere in the area known as Nigeria today had anything comparable to any of these is my point, and not that the entire Africa was less advanced than Europe.
Ordinary Timbuktu wasnt really that ordinary, it was a religious city.
Even a West African proverb hints about this:
"Salt comes from the north, gold from the south and silver from the country of the white men,
but the word of God and the treasures of wisdom are only to be found in Timbuktu.
"

budaatum:
Nowhere in the area known as Nigeria today had anything comparable to any of these is my point,
and not that the entire Africa was less advanced than Europe.
I reasonably agree with the point

budaatum:
I am sure you could not have read only one book, but to claim I have not read any at all, or was repeating what I was told, is rather demeaning, don't you think?

And one does not only have to read the history of it but sociological development too.
Take the relationship to gods, for instance.
Start with the gods of Europe, and how the Europeans evolved their ideas of the gods over time.
First they had many gods who intervened in everything, including the wind and individual peoples' fate.
But gradually, they realised these gods of things were so absurd that they abandoned them all for one superior god who intervened in the wind and individual fate.
1800 years later, here they are abandoning that one god and becoming atheists
.
Now consider where we are on the god evolution scale.
Please list the names of these gods of Europe and their countries?
What and who is the one superior god who intervened in the wind and individual fate they've settled for?

budaatum:
Atheism is only just now raising its head in Nigeria,
and I reckon we would be bowing our heads to those gods for another hundred or so years.
By then, the Europeans would most likely have built heaven itself!
Mr & Mrs Tai Solarin of Mayflower School?
Prof Wole Soyinka?

1 Like

Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by franky317: 7:01am On Apr 30
budaatum:
Kovah, I am unfortunately pivoted on the side of western superiority over Nigeria, a side most Nigerians would shirk from holding because it would seem like denigrating my own. Unfortunately, sentiment aside, history is there to observe who had the advantage. It would depend which periods one is considering, of course, for a like for like comparison.

One indicator is history. The more developed a nation was in the past, the more historical records there are showing that development. Go and search for written history about Africa, and you'd find we hardly kept any. How could we have been as developed as nations that kept more detailed and older historical records?

Writing, another indicator, was non-existent in Nigeria until the arrival of Islam and Arabic. It is why our alphabet had to be created by westerners, and along western lines.

Now consider art. Western art had advanced way further than art had in Nigeria by the 1500s, and even our Nok art, which could be called sculptures, had been significantly superseded by the time we were making that art. The reason the Westerner stole ours was not because it was superior, but because, in their opinion, we had never been able to produce such things, and because they were in a superior position so as to steal it without us being able to do anything about it!

Religion, is another indicator of social advancement . Our religions, by the time the westerners arrived, were disjointed, and in Yorubaland, even the worship of the same gods was not universal across neighbouring societies. What Ogun and Sango requested of it's adherents in one community was not necessarily what Ogun and Sango requested in a neighbouring community, whereas, by about 1000AD, Yahweh, was pretty much supreme in most of Western Europe. They had abandoned the equivalent archaic gods of Zeus and Aphrodite, to name a couple, years before and long after some still clung on to Ogun and Sango and still do in current Nigeria! It is Yahweh's superiority that has overwhelmed our gods and turned them into what most refer to as demons today, sadly. If our gods had united and united us, Yahweh would have easily been repelled.

And in case you do not know, Islam had been invading western Nigeria long before the arrival of the westerner. Some have claimed that trans-sahara slavery, a consequence of those invasions, resulted in more people enslaved than those enslaved in the trans-atlantic slave trade!

Then look at philosophy. While Egypt, an African nation, was very well advanced in this by the beginning of the first millennium, albeit couched behind the veil of the gods Osiris et al, Europe was having much more involved discourse about philosophical ideas while Nigeria wasn't.

Now fast forward to the 16th Century. The Western European was travelling the world in very large vessels and covering distances we never imagined existed. They were using ideas and technology we knew nothing of and were able to exploit the void in our knowledge. While they were staring at the moon and planets and writing thesis about them, we were afraid to enter the forests in our backyards least gbomogbomo takes us away and sell us as slaves.

Then consider today. Yes, they impose their ideas and technology on us, but it must be noted that they do not exactly have to over exert themselves for us to accept it. And our acceptance is not out of ignorance but out of acknowledgment of the superiority of what they produce compared to what we produce. Or who amongst us would chose to purchase a made in Nigeria car or phone if they can afford a second hand western made and already used to death one? Do we even make any of these things? Even our said cars are run on imported petrol, and in a country that is amongst the top ten producers of the raw product from which that petrol is made!

And for your information, oil was first discovered at the Oloibiri Oilfield on Sunday 15 January 1956 by Shell Darcy after a lot of exploration by many other western companies. The westerners did let you go after it was discovered though as you wrongly claim, and, they kept their grubby fingers on that oil until we kicked them out with various Indigenisation Bills starting in the early 70s.

I mention all this because of the consequence of not realising as a nation, how far we have developed compared to other nations. Japan, the Land of the Rising Sun, too thought they were superior until the might of the west showed them they weren't, which propelled them to do something about it. China, the most populous nation on earth, realised how far backward they had gotten, and have done a great leap forward to rectify the situation. The Arab world took one look at the objective reality, and while they claim Allah is superior, they accept that a thatched hut in the desert can not be said to be superior to the magnificent stone buildings built in the west. They have been doing quite a lot to rectify the situation . But we Nigerians imagine a glorious past where we were superior and so do nothing to move us forward, while the reality is that we recede further backward compared to the more developing nations.

While the West base their progress on objective reality and build institutions of technology, we seem to think miracles would prevail and build temples in which to pray to gods we create with our imaginations, an ideology the west abandoned centuries ago when they realised it was taking them into darkness which we are in now!

There is a consequence to building up subjective imaginary realities in our heads and refusing to face the objective facts, and it's like believing one can survive in a room that the oxygen has been sucked out of! I think we agreed what the end of that folly is.


Wow... nicely written.

1 Like

Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by vaxx: 2:30pm On Apr 30
baba wole was never and he is not an atheist, he was raised as an Anglican but now a traditionalist. i am speaking from direct source.
Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by budaatum: 7:35pm On Apr 30
MuttleyLaff:

Please list the names of these gods of Europe and their countries?

List of gods of wind/breeze by country

MuttleyLaff:

What and who is the one superior god who intervened in the wind and individual fate they've settled for?
Yahweh, according to Christians. Allah, according to Muslims.

1 Like

Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by MuttleyLaff: 7:49pm On Apr 30
budaatum:
List of gods of wind/breeze by country


Yahweh, according to Christians. Allah, according to Muslims.
I liked the second response
but not impressed with the wikipedia link first response

What asked you do was to please list the names of these gods of Europe and their countries
not sign posting me to a wikipedia link to ferret them out of it
Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by budaatum: 8:19pm On Apr 30
Why aren't you impressed with wiki? Were you expecting me to list them offhead like I carry such information around in my head? Or you don't have data to go to wiki so I should copy and paste?

Wiki has done an adequate job in providing the information you requested. They amazingly listed them by country with links to each in case you wanted to delve deeper. The only ones missing are African wind gods, and I don't know that there is a god of ategun or afefe in Yoruba mythology. If anyone provides one I'll personally go edit wiki myself.

You should be grateful I did not ask you to go Google it yourself! That was came to mind when first I read your request, you lazy!

MuttleyLaff:
I liked the second response
but not impressed with the wikipedia link first response

What asked you do was to please list the names of these gods of Europe and their countries
not sign posting me to a wikipedia link to ferret them out of it
Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by MuttleyLaff: 8:52pm On Apr 30
budaatum:
Why aren't you impressed with wiki?
I wrote that I was not impressed with the wikipedia link first response
not that I am not impressed with wiki

budaatum:
Were you expecting me to list them offhead like I carry such information around in my head?
Or you don't have data to go to wiki so I should copy and paste?
Yes, I was expecting you to please list the names of these gods of Europe and their countries

budaatum:
Wiki has done an adequate job in providing the information you requested.
They amazingly listed them by country with links to each in case you wanted to delve deeper.
The only ones missing are African wind gods, and I don't know that there is a god of ategun or afefe in Yoruba mythology.
If anyone provides one I'll personally go edit wiki myself.
Take the relationship to gods, for instance.
Start with the gods of Europe, and how the Europeans evolved their ideas of the gods over time.
First they had many gods who intervened in everything, including the wind and individual peoples' fate.
But gradually, they realised these gods of things were so absurd that they abandoned them all for one superior god who intervened in the wind and individual fate.
1800 years later, here they are abandoning that one god and becoming atheists.

- © budaatum

In relation to the above reproduced remark you made about gods of Europe,
and how the Europeans evolved their ideas of the gods over time etcetera
the wikipedia link in your first responder DOESNT list the names of these gods of Europe and their countries
Maybe they are written in security ink

My interest solely and only is in the list the names of these gods of Europe and their countries
Nothing else, less or beyond interests me

budaatum:
You should be grateful I did not ask you to go Google it yourself!
That was came to mind when first I read your request, you lazy!
Dada would have laughed and throw up his hand in the air at you here
I that asked, know what I am doing
A firm grip on a wrist is harder to wriggle out from

1 Like

Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by MuttleyLaff: 9:09pm On Apr 30
vaxx:
baba wole was never and he is not an atheist,
he was raised as an Anglican
but now a traditionalist.
i am speaking from direct source.

Yeah right.
WS straddles Yoruba Pantheonism and atheism
When it suits, does one leg up
Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by vaxx: 9:22pm On Apr 30
MuttleyLaff:

Yeah right.
WS straddles Yoruba Pantheonism and atheism
When it suits, does one leg up
whatever You think of baba nor me is not my business. we are not atheist simple.
Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by budaatum: 9:27pm On Apr 30
MuttleyLaff:

Maybe they are written in security ink
Or maybe you need to go to Specsavers?!

Below is a sample from the site! The list is detailed and I was amazed someone had actually gone to the extent as to list them. If you have specific questions about what you quoted, be obliged to ask please.

Greek mythology
Aeolus, god and Ruler of the Winds
Anemoi, (in Greek, Ἄνεμοι — "winds" ) were Greek wind gods.
Boreas, god of the north wind and of winter.
Eurus, god of the unlucky east or southeast wind.[/b]

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