TV01:

The request I made of TayoD is open to all.

Please detail the scriptures showing that we must strive for or as a result of the "covenant" acquire material wealth. I'd appreciate NT references and not the overworked Abrahmas blessings or variations thereof.

Anyone?

TV01:

The request I made of TayoD is open to all.

Please detail the scriptures showing that we must strive for or as a result of the "covenant" acquire material wealth. I'd appreciate NT references and not the overworked Abrahmas blessings or variations thereof.

'Strive for' material wealth?? I'm not quite sure I could mirror the Gospel of Jesus Christ on that. . . unless somehow we would have to re-write the Bible!

When I read scriptures like 1 Timothy 6, it seems more to the point that we are asked to instead set our hearts on God Himself. In verse 9, we read: 'they that will be rich' (in other words, 'strive for material wealth') fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition'. That doesn't sound like upward mobility; but rather like a dance on a very steep slope!

Sure enough, the Bible recognizes the fact that there are very wealthy Christians - but they are urged to not set their hopes on uncertain riches (vs. 17); and to the young man Timothy, the apostle Paul had one word to him regarding the desire to be rich: 'O man of God, flee these things' (vs. 11).

Does that mean Christians are to be impoverished? By no means! We trust in the living God - for He is well able to richly provide us all things to enjoy (vs. 17).

Cheers all.

TV01:

Anyone?

I'll have a sus at it 

If you're looking for someone to say that we have to "strive" meaning struggle and endeavour for material wealth, I won't be the one to take the bait.  However, there are kingdom principles that would make life comfortable for the believer.

Seek first the kingdom of God yes, however the praciticality of it is that we need to work for our money.  There is faith, foolishness and presumption.  In all your getting, get wisdom, get understanding. 

Here are a few scriptures

3 John 1:2
Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Over to you TV 

@TV01,

The request I made of TayoD is open to all.

Please detail the scriptures showing that we must strive for or as a result of the "covenant" acquire material wealth. I'd appreciate NT references and not the overworked Abrahmas blessings or variations thereof.

Once again, I am not surprised that you have gone beyond what anyone has said here to promote your bias. Who said anything about striving for material wealth?  All I said is that prosperity is part and parcel of our covenant with God that was purchased by the blood of Jesus.  If you do not believe that, I will expect you to swear allegiance to poverty for the rest of your life. Doing otherwise is nothing short of hypocrisy.

Your arrogance at discarding scriptures really amazes me. Isn't Abraham's blessing ours? So what is your choice? The blessing or the curse? You never cease to amaze me my brother.

In any case, I have chosen to take up your request in the hope of getting things really straight about prosperity.  Like I said, prosperity (including riches/wealth) is one of the reasons why Jesus died on the cross.  Here is a NT scripture that mentions that directly.  Revelation 5:12 - Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.  Please notice how riches was even dinstinguished from blessings so that our very spiritual brothers will not try to convince us that God is against us having the gold which He says belongs to Him in the first place.

Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Reading through chapter six in context reveals that the things that will be added to the Christian are the things which the gentiles seek.  So what do the gentiles seek? Holiness? Consecration? The kingdom of God? No.  What they sek is material prosperity. Jesus says here that material prosperity comes by seeking God's kingdom first.  Common sense tells me that if I do not see those things added unto me, then I must not be seeking first His Kingdom and righteousness.

No where does the Bible teaches that wealth is wrong. It teaches against the deceitfulness of riches as well as not putting once trust in it. In fact, Jesus tells us to make friends with money in other to be received into everlasting habitations.

From Genesis to Revelation, we see God's desire to prosper His own in order to establish His covenant. Right from Eden where God placed gold; to Revelation where Jesus died to take it back from the devil who stole it, God's mind is made up that the gold is His and He intends to use it for His own purpose.

i dont particularly see anything wrong in giving the needy and or paying tithe. its just that the churches would have been good welfare centers for the needy if they (churches) really want to help. i mean giving part of the church takings to help the poor, destitutes, unemployed, widows etc will go a long way. this will further boost and encourage more offerings, converts and more.this is better than investing church's takings on something entirely non impacting on peoples lives

Our case is one of poverty begetting poverty. No one talks about hard work; riches in Christ Jesus Is it not rich in righteousness that the bible refers to?? We are very materialistic as a people and that is why we steal.

@otokx,

Our case is one of poverty begetting poverty. No one talks about hard work; riches in Christ Jesus Is it not rich in righteousness that the bible refers to?? We are very materialistic as a people and that is why we steal.

This is a case of people hearing one aspect of a teaching and running away with it. Hard work is part and parcel of the concept of prosperity and because it has not being mentioned so far does not mean it is disregarded.

I will wait to hear the answers of other antagonist of prosperity with regards to the riches being in righteousness before I say anything. Men, do you make me laugh. People will claim anything just to establish their prjudices.

stimulus:

Does that mean Christians are to be impoverished? By no means! We trust in the living God - for He is well able to richly provide us all things to enjoy (vs. 17).

Cheers all.

Hi Stimulus, for the most part, I pretty much agree with your post. One thing though, When the Lord said "The poor are always with you" did that exclude believers?

I'm not saying poverty is the default Christian position. But I do not see it in the scriptures that becoming a Christian automatically engenders wealth.

God bless

Next up, the indefatiguable TG ! How now?

If you're looking for someone to say that we have to "strive" meaning struggle and endeavour for material wealth, I won't be the one to take the bait.

Gosh, am I that obvious ! I honestly didn't intend it like that, but I appreciate how it might read. Thanks.

However, there are kingdom principles that would make life comfortable for the believer.

I disagree with this on so many levels, I'm not sure where exactly to begin .

Maybe I should ask in what way "comfortable"?

Being a walker on the narrow path immediately puts you at odds with the world. Indeed we rejoice that we are counted worthy to suffer shame for His name. No comfort there Miss?

As for material comfort (if that's what you meant), that is not shown from biblical doctrine or narrative. But if it is, millions of Christians are not adhering/following these principles you mention. Care to expound on them?

Finally on this, (to me) in true Christian terms "comfort" almost sounds like a swear word !

Seek first the kingdom of God yes, however the praciticality of it is that we need to work for our money. There is faith, foolishness and presumption. In all your getting, get wisdom, get understanding.

Kinda agree with you here. But the Bible is chocca with reference to the fact that God supplies (and we are not to bother about) more than we need. All things added is for the necessities (and some to bless), not t engender "Christian Consumerism"

3 John 1:2
Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

What exactly are you reading into this? "To prosper" in no way means worldly riches.

John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

There is life and there is life. Please think on this; "if in this life only". And may I say this if you mean abundant life to be riches, one doesn't need Christ to acquire them.

Back to you girl.

God bless

TayoD:

Once again, I am not surprised that you have gone beyond what anyone has said here to promote your bias. Who said anything about striving for material wealth?  All I said is that prosperity is part and parcel of our covenant with God that was purchased by the blood of Jesus.  If you do not believe that, I will expect you to swear allegiance to poverty for the rest of your life. Doing otherwise is nothing short of hypocrisy.

Your use of the contrasting words prosperity and poverty clearly suggest you are using the words in their extreme sense. Wether read as "strive to acquire" or as "acquired as part of the covenant". I do not agree that that can be inferred from scripture.

Let me repeat my position for clarity' sake;

Becoming a Christian does not necessarily engender wealth, nor is there any inherent covenanted promise that guarantees such. Neither does adherence to certain principles on the basis of being a Christian engender material prosperity (and certainly not in as much as adherence to said principles would not work for an unbeliever).

Becoming a Christian is not "the way to material success". It is abundantly evident that material wealth (like the rain and the sun) are experienced by the good and the bad the righteous and the wicked.

Wealth or lack thereof is in no way a testimony to one's faith or right standing with God.

As for that which was purchased by the sacrifice of the Lord, I would sum that up in two words, neither of them being money, wealthy, riches or material prosperity.

Riches (or comfort) or lack of are neither here nor there in the Christian walk. Attitude to abundance or lack, and stewardship of what you are entrusted with are key.

I'll be back to respond to the rest of your post shortly.

God bless

@TV01,

Becoming a Christian does not necessarily engender wealth, nor is there any inherent covenanted promise that guarantees such.

What is your understanding of 2 Corinthians 8:9 - For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

Based on the context, I believe Paul is talking here about material riches. What sayest thou?

TayoD:

What is your understanding of 2 Corinthians 8:9 - For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

Based on the context, I believe Paul is talking here about material riches. What sayest thou?

You are joking right?
"You're not??

Let me get this right;
The Lord was rich (dollars, franks, shekels, whatever - materially)
He gave that up (became poor - penniless, impoverished
So that you could be rich (materially wealthy)

Or am I misunderstanding you?

Of course he's joking?

Right TayoD?

@TV01,

You are joking right?

Wait a minute, I am trying to contact Paul to clarify his statement. Unfortunately, his phone is out of reception area. What do you think he was saying?

@ topic,

of course both are important. and both are commanded.

soon somebody will post a topic saying 'praying or reading the bible' lol

@ the controversy above,

there is nothing wrong with being prosperous. Barnabas was a very rich man. there were others.
however, the bible teaches contentment and abhors all form of greed
there is something wrong with desiring to be wealthy or coveting riches 1Tim 6; 8-10

furthermore, the worst of all is being rich for riches sake ie hoarding wealth. the bible is very clear; the purpose of a believer's wealth is not for himself but so he can give and help others. thats why Barnabas gave to the early church and thats why Jesus pitied that rich man because he valued his wealth too much to give it away.

the problem with prosperity preachers is that they do not balance the gospel, choosing rather to focus on some parts of scripture at the expense of others. I'm sure many of them dont even remember that Paul was not rich. i have even heard some outrageous things like 'my God is not a God of the poor'. nonsense.

wealth and giving are like two sides of a coin, they go hand in hand. this is the context; 2Cor 9;6-12
God is able to make all grace abound towards you, so that having all sufficiency, you will have abundance for every good work

there is nothing wrong with being rich. there is something very wrong with dieing wealthy. there is also something wrong with over-emphasising riches at the expense of the gospel. God blesses us so we can bless others.

stop this argument already!!

babyosisi:

stop this argument already!!

I'm totally with you on that one! i hereby pronounce the argument STOPPED!!

ricadelide:

I'm totally with you on that one! i hereby pronounce the argument STOPPED!!

You can pronounce till the cows come home, the cock crows or pigs fly!

babyosisi:

stop this argument already!!

Or till you're blue in the face!


Tithing is law-bound, Christ-denying, faith-void, religiously perverse, thrice-redundant, ritualistic codswallop (there's no arguing with that !)

Contending for the faith.

God bless

hi TV01 (and all)

I've not been too active lately but been reading occasionally; "tithing", especially as taught today, is still NOT an obligation for the Christian.

TV01:

You can pronounce till the cows come home, the cock crows or pigs fly!

Or till you're blue in the face!


Tithing is law-bound, Christ-denying, faith-void, religiously perverse, thrice-redundant, ritualistic codswallop (there's no arguing with that !)

Contending for the faith.

God bless

I can see you're so bent on continuing this argument.
Ride on brother!

TV01:


Tithing is law-bound, Christ-denying, faith-void, religiously perverse, thrice-redundant, ritualistic codswallop (there's no arguing with that !)

Contending for the faith.

God bless

Yes o! My TV has said it all and said it well, as usual.

triniTV,nice combination

Hello Fellows,

1. I'm a Christian who believe in God

Please I'm wondering where in the Bible did Christ taugh about "Tithe" if it's so important as our pastors potray it these days?

I have open mind to learn please, I've heard from 99% Pastors that if I don't pay Tithe, then God will not Bless me as much as those who pay Tithe? Did Christ mention anything about the consequences of not Paying Tithe? So is this one of the Jewish laws which has lived till date or what?

I just read people's argument about tithing being in the old testament, so we must do it, so why don't we offer goats and ram to God these days in burnt offerings, at least that one self dey old testament, init?

Peace Out!

Same as in the other thread: (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-272.1088.html#msg1392567)

What do we understand by this text:

1 Cor. 9:13 & 14
"Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel."

Study it carefully - you might find answers there.

Allta, this is the answer I gave to the same question in the other thread.

Whether or not you tithe, you are blessed for being a Christian. Jesus did not ask us to tithe because that is not what He was about. In fact it is reasonable to think that Jesus Himself probably never tithed since He did not fall into the category of those whom the tithe was for. He commands us to give --- in particular to help the needy, widows, orphans and other underprivileged folk. That does not mean we should not give when we attend "church"; but what we give should be dictated by our own conscience --- knowing our own personal circumstance. That is why 2 Cor 9:6 says we should give as we purpose in our hearts.

Don't let anyone brainwash you or, worse, scare you into "tithing" as they teach it i.e. give it to the pastor (because that is what it boils down to); it is false teaching and a lie.

Give what you can afford in church and try to help the needy. Finish.

Enigma:

Don't let anyone brainwash you or, worse, scare you into "tithing" as they teach it i.e. give it to the pastor (because that is what it boils down to); it is false teaching and a lie.

Let me repeat here what I also cautioned against>

Don't use your own lies to play God. If you don't understand issues clearly from the WORD, simply offer the advice you can, and don't try pretending that your own fallacy is the truth.

pilgrim.1:

Let me repeat here what I also cautioned against>

Don't use your own lies to play God. If you don't understand issues clearly from the WORD, simply offer the advice you can, and don't try pretending that your own fallacy is the truth.

You'd do well to heed your own advice madam.

TV01:

You'd do well to heed your own advice madam.

Thank you, gentle sir! I don't pander assertive denials, hypocritical lies and dressed-up "errors" the way you do.

Gladly give to the needy, and also give to the church offerings.

bOTH are important , title renews the convenant with God while givig the needy is a form of investment , Remember that God made u rich cos of people around u and not u alone, so give

GOD SAID! I HAVE LAID BEFORE YOU LIVE AND DEATH CHOOSE LIVE SO THAT U MAY LIVE, TITHE IS UR CONVENANT RESPONSIBILTY! SHUD I SAY AT THIS JUNCTURE, LET ME SAY THAT GIVE TITHE SO THAT THINGS WILL NOT BE TITE FOR YOU AND GIVE TO THE POOR SO THAT U WILL NOT BE NEEDY.
THANKS