abumeinben:
Ah

You mean this?

is this picture for real pls?

alBHAGDADI:
Reaching out to church members concerning products you sell is the same thing and a forerunner to selling in Church.

Can't you do your advertisement elsewhere? Or won't you sell if you don't advertise in Church?

Why are you so comfortable with disobeying God? Perhaps, you are one of those who carrying it this disobedience that you can't do without because of the profit .

every church needs finances to run it wont run itself

Skepticus:


So Christ is now an Angry koboko-wielding soldier?

Why nah
You want make him flog you too

alBHAGDADI:

Hello everyone,

Today I will be speaking on why Jesus is flogging your Church instead of blessing it. I know someone will be quick to say the Church he attends is not getting flogged because it is blessed materially. He might be quick to point to the fact that his church is fully air-conditioned, has a beautiful stage with purple lightenings and the members flood the parking space with cars. That's not the kind of blessing I'm talking about.

Many Churches are spiritually dead, but have ascribed material possession to mean they are alive. A Church which can't perform miracles, which doesn't go soulwinning, doesn't care for homeless people is not blessed but is getting flogged by Jesus. There are certain things such a Church could be doing wrong for them to be dead spiritually. Today, I will be speaking on one of them. Let's start by reading the passage below.


John 2:13-16

13 Now the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 And He found in the temple those who sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers doing business. 15 When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers’ money and overturned the tables. 16 And He said to those who sold doves, “Take these things away! Do not make My Father’s house a house of merchandise!”

Why do you think Jesus flogged those in the temple in Jerusalem? Because they sold items in the temple thereby turning it into a market place. That is exactly what many Churches have beceom today. At the entrance or at one corner of churches today, you will find a table which showcases books, CDs, anointing oil, stickers etc being sold. You can even find a restaurant or a kiosk around where donut and drinks are sold. All of that is turning the house of God into a market place.

You might be quick to say there is nothing bad about that because it is just food sold in case members go hungry. Also, the CDs and books contain messages of great pastors like Kenneth Hagin, Joyce Meyers, Joel Osteen, E.A Adeboye, Bishop Oyedepo etc; you say they pertain to the word of God. You might be smart to say those Jesus Christ was angry at for selling at the temple in Jerusalem was because they sold things like doves, oxen, sheep, and not things like books. You might also be quick to say those sheep, oxen and doves have nothing to do with God, but books and CDs containing messages of great pastors have a lot to do with God.

Have you ever asked why those people decided to go sell sheep, oxen and doves at the temple when it is not a pet store or a farm? They took those things there because people needed them for the things of God. Back then, when you want to pay your tithe with farm produce but the produce are too big to carry from your own City to Jerusalem, it is allowed to sell the produce then go to Jerusalem with the money. When you get to Jerusalem, you can now use the money to buy anything ranging from sheep, oxen, dove, wheat etc which you can now drop at the temple. That's why those business men moved their wares closer to the temple so as to be closer to customers (sharp guys).

Can you now see that just as your CDs, anointing oil and books have something to do with God, the sheep and oxen also do? They also have another thing in common: they are being sold in the house of God. That's when Jesus Christ comes in with a whip because you all have angered Him and turned His Father's house into a market place.

It's even worse in today's Churches because the pamphlet or bulletin printed for the day's sermon also includes adverts of businesses in the local community. What we should expect next: billboards and posters hanging all over the walls in a Church advertising soft drinks and other products.

You might build the biggest cathedral, but a little disobedience can be dangerous for the congregation. Instead of getting blessed spiritually such that people see vision, dream dreams, speaking in a foreign language and perform miracles, they are getting flogged and blinded away from the truth. May God help us all.


Kindly show this to your pastor or an elder in your Church.

I've been following you on this forum for a while, but on this particular topic, the Lord will give you understanding.

thatigboman:
is this picture for real pls?

Well I can't say for sure... However, it was attached to a transformer fencing.

My brother from what I know in the scriptures they didn't only sell things in the house of the Lord, but the also gambled and the place became a place for hoodlums and Ill mannered people. Do they gamble in the present day church? The present day church I know have a store in the church compound where things are sold in an orderly and organised form. And its not a dwelling place for hoodlums. Also its best the church items like holy books, sacramentals and CDs are sold within the church premises. Its easier for church members to access them and buy them. Just my own view bro.

favoured247:
My brother from what I know in the scriptures they didn't only sell things in the house of the Lord, but the also gambled and the place became a place for hoodlums and Ill mannered people. Do they gamble in the present day church? The present day church I know have a store in the church compound where things are sold in an orderly and organised form. And its not a dwelling place for hoodlums. Also its best the church items like holy books, sacramentals and CDs are sold within the church premises. Its easier for church members to access them and buy them. Just my own view bro.

I doubt you even read the opening post.

Firstly, no scripture says they gambled or did things other than what the Bible recorded. You saying you saw in scriptures that they gambled is a pure lie and an attempt to paint the people of those days to be worse than the church of today.

Secondly, whether things are sold in an orderly organized manner or not, the fact that they are sold is what's wrong. And who told you the people Jesus flogged didn't sell in orderly manner?

If it's best items like books and CDs are sold within the church's premises so that members can have easy access to them, why didn't Jesus think of such with the people who sold doves, sheep's and oxen which were to be used by members for sacrifice in the temple?

Because it is wrong, that's why.

TheUbermensch:



Those "adverts" help pay for the Bulletin. And a good number of times it's Job vacancies, admission slots, or services to be used by the church members (printing, tailoring).

How's that a sin?

Read and understand

ehissi:


Reading such things like this on the internet breaks me up in ways only God can understand.

Friends, who are reading, anytime you see things like this anywhere on the internet, remember these 2 scriptures

Matthew 11:28 -29
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Hebrews 5:11-12
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Matthew 11:28-29 is a very common scripture that is used to preach to exhort soon-to-be converts. But there is something people miss in verse 29.

Take my yoke upon you and learn from me

In other words, take a portion of my burden, my baggage, my responsibility and learn from me. I am meek - humility in the midst of power & authority - and lowly - raw, circumstantial humility - in heart and you shall find rest for your souls.

There are those who take up responsibility within local churches but learn nothing from Him, there are those who take no burden nor place nor responsibility anywhere but seek to learn from him (the first set may be filled with a certain level of understanding/knowledge but no wisdom and the second set may be filled with wisdom but lack understanding/knowledge to appropriate that wisdom. Strangely enough the second set are typically the most zealous and outspoken of the 2... )

There are those who don't subscribe to any of the 2, (either learning from Him nor taking His yoke) and insist that they are Christians and children of God......

The Bible says that the Lord knows those who are His (2Timothy 2:19) so it not my place to judge anyone.....

But I believe those who dedicate themselves to taking His yoke and learning from him, tend towards maturity and can hardly make this kind comment OP is blasting like this.....

Hebrews 5:11 uses an expression "dull of hearing". What does this connote?

When Jesus was leaving, he made a solemn promise, which some people fail to tap into. In John14:26 Jesus said

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The bible declares boldly in several instances including Revelations 2:29, " He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit is saying......."

My question? Have you seriously considered all this comment in your post in the place of prayer. Does the Spirit of God endorse/agree with this your line of commentary.

Jesus Christ Himself said "I build my church....", there is but one church and that is the Church of Jesus Christ, the general assembly of the First born which are written in heaven (Heb 12-23). A local assembly of believers, under the banner of a ministry, lead by a man/woman with a passion which may be born out of a calling of God or a righteous desire is not the Whole church of Jesus Christ.

And as such what goes there, is not an automatic reflection of what is happening in the whole body/Church of Jesus Christ, as seen or heard (either through visions, dreams or other forms of revelation) in the realms of the Spirit.

You are not the first to make this kind of blunder.

When Jezebel sought to kill the prophet elijah, he went before the presence of God in the mountains and sought to die, since - according to him - God has abandoned all the prophets and allowed jezebel/ahab to hold sway in sin and evil, and how they have killed all the prophets and he was the last one alive (1kings 19 from verse 11).

But God corrected him and made him to understand that he was only one of 7,000 prophets who were still alive and hadn't succumbed to idol worship under Ahab/Jezebel.

I can boldly say, based on personal bible study, that Elymas in the bible represents the perfect minister for the unflogged church based on your requirements, except that he sought to pervert the way of the Lord - for he was a sorcerer.

But then again, only a man who knows the truth, knows when it is in danger of perversion.

I do not believe that a church or local assembly is under "flogging" as you call it, in the absence of miracles, soulwinning and care for the homeless because I know that William Braham was not guilty of any of what you mentioned but still suffered a flogging. Why?

Because of disobedience. Some of the things you mentioned may have nothing to do with what the Lord sent you as a ministry to do, the core focus of the ministry.

I know an NGO whose focus is to teach karate to Women above 45years of age in some communities in the southern part of Africa and in kenya, why?

Because the superstitious belief of the people is that the cure to STD's of all kind is sex with an old woman. Hence the culture of sexual harassment and rape towards old women is rampant.

Along the line, they preach the Gospel.

But what if another zealous person challenges them ( like some JW people sometimes do) and say fighting is ungodly/sinful, hence teaching old women to fight is wrong.

Whose counsel are they expected to follow?! Are they expected to abandon what God told them to do to fulfill people's requirements of a sinless church/ministry or an "unflogged" church?

Also your reference to the money changers isn't complete! Why? Because the money changers existed in the temple before the days of Jesus, when the land was very much ruled by Jewish kings.

And there was nothing wrong with their presence in the temple. But what was wrong with their presence in the temple under the rule of the roman empire is clearly seen/elaborated in Matthew 21:12-13, Mark 11:17 and Luke 19:46.......

Matthew21:12-13

And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

They were cheating the people and that's why Jesus called them thieves.


Proverbs16:11 A just weight and balance are the Lord's: all the weights of the bag are his work.

Leviticus 19:36 Just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin, shall ye have: I am the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt.

Proverbs11:1 A false balance is abomination to the Lord: but a just weight is his delight.



He called them thieves because they had turned money changing to business and were profiting heavily from it, and God had warned the people severally against usury and unethical business practices before the arrival of Jesus, so He drove them out without hesitation.

As for adverts, in Bulletins? I grew up in a catholic home, though I eventually left the catholic church. In those days Bulletin used to be free, but at a time it was sold for 1kobo, then 50kobo, then 2 was sold for #5 - it was #2.50 as recent as 1996. I have no idea what it is right now, but I do know that church finances isnt what some people think it is.

I once walked into a mega church where a friend of mine served as accountant within, the country and was impressed with its beauty.

But by the time, me and my friend dey gist, the people that really keep that place going - financially in terms of running cost of diesel for generator, servicing AC, generator, renting chairs, decorations are not up to 8 ) in a church of over 2,000 persons.

People that pay tithe consistently are not more than 150 and that includes the staff strength of 60 - deacons, pastors, cleaners, security guard etc and majority of the people are civil servants.

So in whatever way any ministry chooses to source for revenue to maintain it operations - in my opinion oooh - is okay, as long as it doesnt contradict the purpose of which the ministry was raised nor the word of God nor bring/reduce the work of God already on ground to rubble .

The reality of the Matter is that there are ministries that have becomes big and there are those that are not there yet, so church finance is a very difficult/tricky thing to navigate.

What a ministry does in a bid to raise funds is a reflection of the attitude/kind of members they have. Thats why when I see churches laying charges on things like baptism, prayers or deliverance, I feel sorry for them, because it means that the congregation are doing their role in the house of God and that Pastor may have given in to temptation.

Nevertheless, there is a difference between between transfering cost and usury.

If as a man of God, for example you are led to anoint water and make it available to your members in their private time, it shouldn't necessarily become a business venture in my own opinion, except he is Led to use it as a way of raising money by God (the bible is replete with examples).

It could even be that a man of God or Pastor wants to make it available for all. But what happens when you cannot afford right away to make it available 100% free.

In my opinion, a wise person/administrator will have to bottle the water after it has been prayed for and transfer the cost of such to people .

A ministry may decide to buy rollers and filters and package the water through the exact same process as bottled water (which is a good practice, if you are going to encourage them to drink it) some may decide to buy already bottled water and just pray on it, some may decide to even use water from water dispensers and just create bottles and fill them up.

In the end, there is nothing wrong with selling such things in church. Its the way you go about it that matters.

Nevertheless, my advise is to pray for Pastors because, al, things are lawful but not all things may be expedient to them according to the call they have received

I support your points to a very large extent...

ehissi:


Reading such things like this on the internet breaks me up in ways only God can understand.

Friends, who are reading, anytime you see things like this anywhere on the internet, remember these 2 scriptures

Matthew 11:28 -29
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Hebrews 5:11-12
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Matthew 11:28-29 is a very common scripture that is used to preach to exhort soon-to-be converts. But there is something people miss in verse 29.

Take my yoke upon you and learn from me

In other words, take a portion of my burden, my baggage, my responsibility and learn from me. I am meek - humility in the midst of power & authority - and lowly - raw, circumstantial humility - in heart and you shall find rest for your souls.

There are those who take up responsibility within local churches but learn nothing from Him, there are those who take no burden nor place nor responsibility anywhere but seek to learn from him (the first set may be filled with a certain level of understanding/knowledge but no wisdom and the second set may be filled with wisdom but lack understanding/knowledge to appropriate that wisdom. Strangely enough the second set are typically the most zealous and outspoken of the 2... )

There are those who don't subscribe to any of the 2, (either learning from Him nor taking His yoke) and insist that they are Christians and children of God......

The Bible says that the Lord knows those who are His (2Timothy 2:19) so it not my place to judge anyone.....

But I believe those who dedicate themselves to taking His yoke and learning from him, tend towards maturity and can hardly make this kind comment OP is blasting like this.....

Hebrews 5:11 uses an expression "dull of hearing". What does this connote?

When Jesus was leaving, he made a solemn promise, which some people fail to tap into. In John14:26 Jesus said

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The bible declares boldly in several instances including Revelations 2:29, " He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit is saying......."

My question? Have you seriously considered all this comment in your post in the place of prayer. Does the Spirit of God endorse/agree with this your line of commentary.

Jesus Christ Himself said "I build my church....", there is but one church and that is the Church of Jesus Christ, the general assembly of the First born which are written in heaven (Heb 12-23). A local assembly of believers, under the banner of a ministry, lead by a man/woman with a passion which may be born out of a calling of God or a righteous desire is not the Whole church of Jesus Christ.

And as such what goes there, is not an automatic reflection of what is happening in the whole body/Church of Jesus Christ, as seen or heard (either through visions, dreams or other forms of revelation) in the realms of the Spirit.

You are not the first to make this kind of blunder.

When Jezebel sought to kill the prophet elijah, he went before the presence of God in the mountains and sought to die, since - according to him - God has abandoned all the prophets and allowed jezebel/ahab to hold sway in sin and evil, and how they have killed all the prophets and he was the last one alive (1kings 19 from verse 11).

But God corrected him and made him to understand that he was only one of 7,000 prophets who were still alive and hadn't succumbed to idol worship under Ahab/Jezebel.

I can boldly say, based on personal bible study, that Elymas in the bible represents the perfect minister for the unflogged church based on your requirements, except that he sought to pervert the way of the Lord - for he was a sorcerer.

But then again, only a man who knows the truth, knows when it is in danger of perversion.

I do not believe that a church or local assembly is under "flogging" as you call it, in the absence of miracles, soulwinning and care for the homeless because I know that William Braham was not guilty of any of what you mentioned but still suffered a flogging. Why?

Because of disobedience. Some of the things you mentioned may have nothing to do with what the Lord sent you as a ministry to do, the core focus of the ministry.

I know an NGO whose focus is to teach karate to Women above 45years of age in some communities in the southern part of Africa and in kenya, why?

Because the superstitious belief of the people is that the cure to STD's of all kind is sex with an old woman. Hence the culture of sexual harassment and rape towards old women is rampant.

Along the line, they preach the Gospel.

But what if another zealous person challenges them ( like some JW people sometimes do) and say fighting is ungodly/sinful, hence teaching old women to fight is wrong.

Whose counsel are they expected to follow?! Are they expected to abandon what God told them to do to fulfill people's requirements of a sinless church/ministry or an "unflogged" church?

Also your reference to the money changers isn't complete! Why? Because the money changers existed in the temple before the days of Jesus, when the land was very much ruled by Jewish kings.

And there was nothing wrong with their presence in the temple. But what was wrong with their presence in the temple under the rule of the roman empire is clearly seen/elaborated in Matthew 21:12-13, Mark 11:17 and Luke 19:46.......

Matthew21:12-13

And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

They were cheating the people and that's why Jesus called them thieves.


Proverbs16:11 A just weight and balance are the Lord's: all the weights of the bag are his work.

Leviticus 19:36 Just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin, shall ye have: I am the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt.

Proverbs11:1 A false balance is abomination to the Lord: but a just weight is his delight.



He called them thieves because they had turned money changing to business and were profiting heavily from it, and God had warned the people severally against usury and unethical business practices before the arrival of Jesus, so He drove them out without hesitation.

As for adverts, in Bulletins? I grew up in a catholic home, though I eventually left the catholic church. In those days Bulletin used to be free, but at a time it was sold for 1kobo, then 50kobo, then 2 was sold for #5 - it was #2.50 as recent as 1996. I have no idea what it is right now, but I do know that church finances isnt what some people think it is.

I once walked into a mega church where a friend of mine served as accountant within, the country and was impressed with its beauty.

But by the time, me and my friend dey gist, the people that really keep that place going - financially in terms of running cost of diesel for generator, servicing AC, generator, renting chairs, decorations are not up to 8 ) in a church of over 2,000 persons.

People that pay tithe consistently are not more than 150 and that includes the staff strength of 60 - deacons, pastors, cleaners, security guard etc and majority of the people are civil servants.

So in whatever way any ministry chooses to source for revenue to maintain it operations - in my opinion oooh - is okay, as long as it doesnt contradict the purpose of which the ministry was raised nor the word of God nor bring/reduce the work of God already on ground to rubble .

The reality of the Matter is that there are ministries that have become big and there are those that are not there yet, so church finance is a very difficult/tricky thing to navigate.

What a ministry does in a bid to raise funds is a reflection of the attitude/kind of members they have. Thats why when I see churches laying charges on things like baptism, prayers or deliverance, I feel sorry for them, because it means that the congregation are not doing their role in the house of God and that Pastor may have given in to temptation.

Nevertheless, there is a difference between between transfering cost and usury.

If as a man of God, for example you are led to anoint water and make it available to your members in their private time, it shouldn't necessarily become a business venture in my own opinion, except he is Led to use it as a way of raising money by God (the bible is replete with examples).

It could even be that a man of God or Pastor wants to make it available for all. But what happens when you cannot afford right away to make it available 100% free.

In my opinion, a wise person/administrator will have to bottle the water after it has been prayed for and transfer the cost of such to people . Or seek for people who will partner with him to sponsor that project - this happens alot of times but carnal folks misread/interpret it most times as a pastor trying to steal.

A ministry may decide to buy rollers and filters and package the water through the exact same process as bottled water (which is a good practice, if you are going to encourage them to drink it) some may decide to buy already bottled water and just pray on it, some may decide to even use water from water dispensers and just create bottles and fill them up.

In the end, there is nothing wrong with selling such things in church. Its the way you go about it that matters.

Nevertheless, my advise is to pray for Pastors because, all things are lawful but not all things may be expedient to them according to the call they have received

All this long eoistle with verses that don't correlate really doesn't explain anything in support of selling in Churches.

Look at the way you started and look at the way you ended.

Op, are you of the same thought that money have replaced farm produce as tithes in our modern world?

@ehissi, thanks for the exposition. So helpful. God bless you.

oyetpel:
Op, are you of the same thought that money have replaced farm produce as tithes in our modern world?

I'm still studying on that.

alBHAGDADI:

I doubt you even read the opening post.

Firstly, no scripture says they gambled or did things other than what the Bible recorded. You saying you saw in scriptures that they gambled is a pure lie and an attempt to paint the people of those days to be worse than the church of today.

Secondly, whether things are sold in an orderly organized manner or not, the fact that they are sold is what's wrong. And who told you the people Jesus flogged didn't sell in orderly manner?

If it's best items like books and CDs are sold within the church's premises so that members can have easy access to them, why didn't Jesus think of such with the people who sold doves, sheep's and oxen which were to be used by members for sacrifice in the temple?

Because it is wrong, that's why.

Chief calm down. I read all u wrote. Different versions of the Gospel narrates the account of Jesus differently. Some have more explanation than others. Leave the account of john and go to Mathew 21:12-13. Vs 13 says Jesus said to them "my house will be called a house of prayers but u are making it a den of robbers"

Bro do I need to explain this? The temple became a place that harboured criminals and ungodly activities took place there. Is that what is going on in our church today? Are robbers inside the church where they are selling sacramentals and holy books?

Albhagdadi
You didn't mention Daddy Freeze this time surprised
Back to the topic,
Let your love for God and his works be the motivating factor behind anything you do as a church or Christian's. God looks at our hearts (motive) not our looks(outward activities).

favoured247:

Chief calm down. I read all u wrote. Different versions of the Gospel narrates the account of Jesus differently. Some have more explanation than others. Leave the account of john and go to Mathew 21:12-13. Vs 13 says Jesus said to them "my house will be called a house of prayers but u are making it a den of robbers"

Bro do I need to explain this? The temple became a place that harboured criminals and ungodly activities took place there. Is that what is going on in our church today? Are robbers inside the church where they are selling sacramentals and holy books?

You are just trying to twist the word of God to justify this obvious wrong doing. Even when you do twist the word of God, you still expose the wrong doing the more.

Now, you jumped to Mathew because it uses the word Robbers. And then you ask if there are Robbers in God's house today. Yes they are, and they are the people selling things there. How come?

Let me give you a fine illustration. Imagine I go stand at the gate of ShopRite and start selling my products. How do you think the authorities at ShopRite will react? They are going to drive me away. That's because I'm taking advantage of their effort to sell my own products. They put out lots of money to advertise which is how they attracted the tonnes of people trooping in. I mean, you won't expect them to just sit and watch me sell my own products at their gate, taking advantage of the people they attracted to the place via adverts. That's me robbing them.

You see, those people selling in Churches are no different. They are taking advantage of people going to the house of God. The people are going there for prayers, but these merchandisers are taking advantage of their presence to sell products to them. Jesus said it is a house of prayer but you have turned it into a den of Robbers. The sellers are robbing God's effort of bringing people to the church. Do you know how many stress soul winners go through to get people to come in to church? After they've done that, you now show up and take advantage of that by selling your products to them. They didn't come to church for your products but to pray, because that's what the place is for.

Greatzeus:
Albhagdadi
You didn't mention Daddy Freeze this time surprised
Back to the topic,
Let your love for God and his works be the motivating factor behind anything you do as a church or Christian's. God looks at our hearts (motive) not our looks(outward activities).

Selling things in church, whether Christian materials or not, is not out of love for God. Rather, it is how to the love for money. Because if you truly love God, you won't be selling those things in Church. You will be having them out for free.

But if you want to sell them, go do that at the market place.

alBHAGDADI:
You are just trying to twist the word of God to justify this obvious wrong doing. Even when you do twist the word of God, you still expose the wrong doing the more.

Now, you jumped to Mathew because it uses the word Robbers. And then you ask if there are Robbers in God's house today. Yes they are, and they are the people selling things there. How come?

Let me give you a fine illustration. Imagine I go stand at the gate of ShopRite and start selling my products. How do you think the authorities at ShopRite will react? They are going to drive me away. That's because I'm taking advantage of their effort to sell my own products. They put out lots of money to advertise which is how they attracted the tonnes of people trooping in. I mean, you won't expect them to just sit and watch me sell my own products at their gate, taking advantage of the people they attracted to the place via adverts. That's me robbing them.

You see, those people selling in Churches are no different. They are taking advantage of people going to the house of God. The people are going there for prayers, but these merchandisers are taking advantage of their presence to sell products to them. Jesus said it is a house of prayer but you have turned it into a den of Robbers. The sellers are robbing God's effort of bringing people to the church. Do you know how many stress soul winners go through to get people to come in to church? After they've done that, you now show up and take advantage of that by selling your products to them. They didn't come to church for your products but to pray, because that's what the place is for.

Now ask me what are these items they are selling. They are not items for sacrifices. They are sacramentals, audio CDs and whatever will aid u in making your christian life better. They are not compelling u to buy it. The church itself admonishes u to buy these items. U need to pray with them. You need to read these books. You need more knowledge. U need to improve on your life. The church wants u to have them. It profits the church for u to draw closer to God. Besides these sellers take permission from the church before selling it. So its not a bad thing. Its recommended my brother.

favoured247:

Now ask me what are these items they are selling. They are not items for sacrifices. They are sacramentals, audio CDs and whatever will aid u in making your christian life better. They are not compelling u to buy it. The church itself admonishes u to buy these items. U need to pray with them. You need to read these books. You need more knowledge. U need to improve on your life. The church wants u to have them. It profits the church for u to draw closer to God. Besides these sellers take permission from the church before selling it. So its not a bad thing. Its recommended my brother.

What you are saying now is that the doves, sheep and oxen were not meant to make the jewsih life of those people better.

You just keep confusing yourself all in a bid to continue this wrong doing. Jesus has warned you not to trade in his house. Failure to abide by the order can be disastrous .

alBHAGDADI:
All this long eoistle with verses that don't correlate really doesn't explain anything in support of selling in Churches.

Look at the way you started and look at the way you ended.

Obviously you didn't understand my long "eoistle" at all.

The bulk of your argument against selling of things, particularly Spiritual resources like Spiritual books, anointing oil e.t.c was made in reference to the scriptures in the book of John, where Jesus drove out money changers from the temple.

I cited the same events as catalogued in Matthew 21:12-13 to show you why he drove them out.

It was not because changing money for produce in the temple was wrong, it was because there were cheating people.

Infact there are called to be money changers, helping people to change their money to sacrificial produce, too heavy or fragile to transport over long distances. But now, it was not money changing there were doing again, it was outright business of selling produce to the highest bidder.


If you even undertake a deeper theological study through the eyes of history, its alleged that worshippers were made to pay very high price on the grounds that the agricultural produce sold in the temple were approved by the priests and were unusually expensive.

Hence Jesus accused them of making the temple, " a den of thieves". If you even study throughout scripture, you will find that God is firmly against any form of business activities that jews carry out towards each other that attracts very high price, very high premium or any form of interest - what some people now call 10k pay 20k, meaning I borrow #10,000 from you and I must return #20,000.

I also said, whatever sources that a church seeks as a means to raise funds is allowed, provided it doesnt go against what the ministry was called to do, or go against the word of God or bring down to rubble/disrepute the work of God already on ground, or it is based on instructions given by God and i also said the bible is replete with instances where God gave counsel/instructions on how to raise money.

Infact, I said money changers had been in the temple, when israel was under the rule of Jewish kings and it never counted against israel as sinful or wicked. Why it became the case, now that the jews were under the rule of caesar was because it was use as a means of cheating the jews, through exorbitant prices.

I even showed you scriptures from leviticus and proverbs where God through the law showed he was against false weights and false balances.

In those day, merchandise was valued by it weight and it was normal amongst the greedy to tamper with the scales/weights they use to sell market to cheat people......

You understand now.......

ehissi:


Obviously you didn't understand my long "eoistle" at all.

The bulk of your argument against selling of things, particularly Spiritual resources like Spiritual books, anointing oil e.t.c was made in reference to the scriptures in the book of John, where Jesus drove out money changers from the temple.

I cited the same events as catalogued in Matthew 21:12-13 to show you why he drove them out.

It was not because changing money for produce in the temple was wrong, it was because there were cheating people.

Infact there are called to be money changers, helping people to change their money to sacrificial produce, too heavy or fragile to transport over long distances. But now, it was not money changing there were doing again, it was outright business of selling produce to the highest bidder.


If you even undertake a deeper theological study through the eyes of history, its alleged that worshippers were made to pay very high price on the grounds that the agricultural produce sold in the temple were approved by the priests and were unusually expensive........

Who is this guy that is so comfortable telling bold lies against the Bible?

Where is it written in the Bible that Jesus drove them out, not because they were doing business in the temple, but because they were cheating people? You are a blatant liar because the Bible verse which you claim says they were driven because they were cheating people didn't say such. It says they were driven because they bought and sold in the temple.

Mathew 21:12-13

12 Then Jesus went into the temple of God and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves. 13 And He said to them, "It is written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer,' but you have made it a 'den of thieves.

I'm surprised that you have placed theological teachings over what is expressly written in the Bible. I'm even amazed at the boldness by which you peddle falsehood.

The verse even says those that were buying we're also driven out. Can you now tell me that those buying we're also cheating?

ehissi:


Hence Jesus accused them of making the temple, " a den of thieves". If you even study throughout scripture, you will find that God is firmly against any form of business activities that jews carry out towards each other that attracts very high price, very high premium or any form of interest - what some people now call 10k pay 20k, meaning I borrow #10,000 from you and I must return #20,000.
.......

Still doesn't prove your point that the people Jesus drove out were cheating. No Bible verse says such. Only liars try to make it seem so.

ehissi:

I also said, whatever sources that a church seeks as a means to raise funds is allowed, provided it doesnt go against what the ministry was called to do, or go against the word of God or bring down to rubble/disrepute the work of God already on ground, or it is based on instructions given by God and i also said the bible is replete with instances where God gave counsel/instructions on how to raise money........

And never did He including buying and selling in the church. Yes, the church can engage in ways to raise money, but as long as it doesn't t go in line with God's word, then it is disobedience. Buying and selling in Church is disobedience. Jesus Christ was angered by such.

ehissi:

Infact, I said money changers had been in the temple, when israel was under the rule of Jewish kings and it never counted against israel as sinful or wicked. Why it became the case, now that the jews were under the rule of caesar was because it was use as a means of cheating the jews, through exorbitant prices.
.......

Who told you it wasn't counted as sin? If it wasn't, then why did Jesus chased them out angrily?

Just because you are enjoying doing evil doesn't mean what you are doing is right. One day you will get to see how wrong it is. For them, that day was when Jesus came flogging them.

ehissi:

I even showed you scriptures from leviticus and proverbs where God through the law showed he was against false weights and false balances.

In those day, merchandise was valued by it weight and it was normal amongst the greedy to tamper with the scales/weights they use to sell market to cheat people......

You understand now.......

Now, in the passage where Jesus chased those people out of the temple, where did it state that they were carrying out false weights and balance? My friend, you are just rewriting the Bible.

If you say the people were tampering with scales which made Jesus chased them out, why didn't he just tell them to stop tampering with scales? If selling was permitted in the temple, don't you think driving them out is equal to Jesus preventing permitted things in the temple from taking place? He drove them out because, whether they were selling rightly or dubiously, it is not permitted in the temple of God. That is why he said it is the house of prayer, not the den of thieves or a place for merchandise.

You believe by quoting verses means your warped point stands? If you like quote half of the Bible, you will always be wrong because what you quote will never support your point.

This is the reason why Christianity has become so weak and disrespected around the world. A person will just get up and proclaim himself a bible teacher without any form of study outside of the pages of the Bible. This is why most in The West sees Christianity as a lazy man's pastime.

That you are completely ignorant of what happened at the Temple during each Passover because the Bible does not record the background is testament to the laziness I speak of. You are just doing private interpretation of scriptures...wrongly dividing the Word Of Truth

The Bible was not written in space, it was written on earth and as such there were events and culture happening all around the accounts there that requires one read ancient historical books to get better understanding. Something tells me you only read Scriptures because you believe that no other materials were written especially around the New testament period.

Pls upgrade yourself. Go and study Josephus the Jewish historian that wrote about Jesus. That is a start. Mind you he was not a Christian

Even on my android Bible app I have maps of all places mentioned in the bible and commentary by historians on all aspects of ancient Jewish life. The Bible is not a culture book nor a historical book although it has smatterings of both.

Try to eschew mental laziness before you set yourself up as a Bible teacher.

There is so much knowledge out there to satisy a true researcher of the historical issues that surround the Bible stories especially New Testament

alBHAGDADI:


Who is this guy that is so comfortable telling bold lies against the Bible?

Where is it written in the Bible that Jesus drove them out, not because they were doing business in the temple, but because they were cheating people? You are a blatant liar because the Bible verse which you claim says they were driven because they were cheating people didn't say such. It says they were driven because they bought and sold in the temple.

Mathew 21:12-13

12 Then Jesus went into the temple of God and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves. 13 And He said to them, "It is written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer,' but you have made it a 'den of thieves.

I'm surprised that you have placed theological teachings over what is expressly written in the Bible. I'm even amazed at the boldness by which you peddle falsehood.

The verse even says those that were buying we're also driven out. Can you now tell me that those buying we're also cheating?


Still doesn't prove your point that the people Jesus drove out were cheating. No Bible verse says such. Only liars try to make it seem so.

And never did He including buying and selling in the church. Yes, the church can engage in ways to raise money, but as long as it doesn't t go in line with God's word, then it is disobedience. Buying and selling in Church is disobedience. Jesus Christ was angered by such.



Who told you it wasn't counted as sin? If it wasn't, then why did Jesus chased them out angrily?

Just because you are enjoying doing evil doesn't mean what you are doing is right. One day you will get to see how wrong it is. For them, that day was when Jesus came flogging them.

Now, in the passage where Jesus chased those people out of the temple, where did it state that they were carrying out false weights and balance? My friend, you are just rewriting the Bible.

If you say the people were tampering with scales which made Jesus chased them out, why didn't he just tell them to stop tampering with scales? If selling was permitted in the temple, don't you think driving them out is equal to Jesus preventing permitted things in the temple from taking place? He drove them out because, whether they were selling rightly or dubiously, it is not permitted in the temple of God. That is why he said it is the house of prayer, not the den of thieves or a place for merchandise.

You believe by quoting verses means your warped point stands? If you like quote half of the Bible, you will always be wrong because what you quote will never support your point.

VULCAN:
This is the reason why Christianity has become so weak and disrespected around the world. A person will just get up and proclaim himself a bible teacher without any form of study outside of the pages of the Bible. This is why most in The West sees Christianity as a lazy man's pastime.

That you are completely ignorant of what happened at the Temple during each Passover because the Bible does not record the background is testament to the laziness I speak of. You are just doing private interpretation of scriptures...wrongly dividing the Word Of Truth

The Bible was not written in space, it was written on earth and as such there were events and culture happening all around the accounts there that requires one read ancient historical books to get better understanding. Something tells me you only read Scriptures because you believe that no other materials were written especially around the New testament period.

Pls upgrade yourself. Go and study Josephus the Jewish historian that wrote about Jesus. That is a start. Mind you he was not a Christian

Even on my android Bible app I have maps of all places mentioned in the bible and commentary by historians on all aspects of ancient Jewish life. The Bible is not a culture book nor a historical book although it has smatterings of both.

Try to eschew mental laziness before you set yourself up as a Bible teacher.

There is so much knowledge out there to satisy a true researcher of the historical issues that surround the Bible stories especially New Testament

With so much blabbing, you ended up saying nothing.

You are telling me to go and study other sources? what will they tell me other than what the Bible has told me? You that you have studied other sources, why didn't you just state their points here? This is how you people get destroyed because you chose to rely on other sources to explain the Bible for you when the Bible is easy and explanatory enough. Why don't you advice I go read the 7 books of Moses, book of Barnabas, book of Enoch and other forbidden books simply because I want to understand a simple Bible passage.

You even claim the Bible is not a culture or historical book. I double t you ever read it. How will you when you spend your time reading historical books and the 7 books of Moses.

If you are not going to state points but go about blabbing, then off the thread.

alBHAGDADI:


Who is this guy that is so comfortable telling bold lies against the Bible?

Where is it written in the Bible that Jesus drove them out, not because they were doing business in the temple, but because they were cheating people? You are a blatant liar because the Bible verse which you claim says they were driven because they were cheating people didn't say such. It says they were driven because they bought and sold in the temple.

Mathew 21:12-13

12 Then Jesus went into the temple of God and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves. 13 And He said to them, "It is written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer,' but you have made it a 'den of thieves.

I'm surprised that you have placed theological teachings over what is expressly written in the Bible. I'm even amazed at the boldness by which you peddle falsehood.

The verse even says those that were buying we're also driven out. Can you now tell me that those buying we're also cheating?


Still doesn't prove your point that the people Jesus drove out were cheating. No Bible verse says such. Only liars try to make it seem so.

And never did He including buying and selling in the church. Yes, the church can engage in ways to raise money, but as long as it doesn't t go in line with God's word, then it is disobedience. Buying and selling in Church is disobedience. Jesus Christ was angered by such.



Who told you it wasn't counted as sin? If it wasn't, then why did Jesus chased them out angrily?

Just because you are enjoying doing evil doesn't mean what you are doing is right. One day you will get to see how wrong it is. For them, that day was when Jesus came flogging them.

Now, in the passage where Jesus chased those people out of the temple, where did it state that they were carrying out false weights and balance? My friend, you are just rewriting the Bible.

If you say the people were tampering with scales which made Jesus chased them out, why didn't he just tell them to stop tampering with scales? If selling was permitted in the temple, don't you think driving them out is equal to Jesus preventing permitted things in the temple from taking place? He drove them out because, whether they were selling rightly or dubiously, it is not permitted in the temple of God. That is why he said it is the house of prayer, not the den of thieves or a place for merchandise.

You believe by quoting verses means your warped point stands? If you like quote half of the Bible, you will always be wrong because what you quote will never support your point.

My brother, I am not a liar, nor am I a preacher. I am simply an informal student of the word. I dont know too much, but what I know I share.

Number 1, calling someone a liar whom you dont know, or never met nor had dealings with in the past is rude.

If you are so confident about what you posted and you strongly believe it, go and show your own Pastor, elders and deacons in your church and your village, and leave us who are not as "matured" as you in Spiritual things to grow.

The best you can do, if you see something you disagree with, is to say "it is not true" or best yet, I dont "believe so" and simply state your reason, if possible backed by scriptures.

For example, if you are even a student of the word, then you would even know that nobody was even permitted to enter the temple except the priests or those who served under the priesthood. And even those who served under the priesthood had limits to what parts of the temple they could access , based on their rank/office. The Chief Priests being the only persons at a time who could enter the Holy of holies -the inner, inner room of the temple.

So even the bible makes reference to Jesus entering the temple or teaching in the temple, it is actually in reference to the courts of the temple, be it the outer court (which is believed to be the court of the gentiles, the last bus stop for non-jews to enter, which is believed to be where Jesus drove away the money-changers and the merchants from which is just outside the temple walls) or the inner court, where Jews could enter. Even Jesus Christ was not permitted to enter the temple for he was not serving under the levitical priesthood. (If you still argue this one or ask me for scriptural reference, then I will just know where you are coming from... )

You said nowhere in the bible was it mentioned that the merchants cheated because you have never studied on the subject, so you probably know nothing about the money changers depicted in the bible.

In any case, in Matthew 21, Jesus said "My house shall be called a house of prayer but you have made it a den of thieves" What is a "den of thieves" bikonu? Isn't a den of thieves a place where thieves reside? Just as "a den of kidnappers" is a place where kidnappers reside?

Jesus said they have turned his Father's house to a place where thieves hangout, you ignore him and say is because they sold market in the temple (which is actually the temple court), so you want me to take your words over that of Jesus more seriously.............

Through the eyes of simple study, you would have known that the Money changer's job included not just changing money for produce but changing currency for currency (a situation exacerbated by the jews being ruled by the romans under caesar..........and this is one place that Usury was introduced.

Throughout the old testament, you will find out that there are instances in scriptures where the people were made to bring offerings to God in shekels - which is the currency of the Jews and the Jewish temple - but meanwhile the currency of israel as the time of the roman empire was drachm (drachmas for plural).

Now in the Kings James version of the bible, you will see no direct mention of the drachma currency through out the new or old testament, but in other translation of the bible, it is written there.

What we see is in King James Version is an indirect reference to the drachma Matthew 22:17 - 21 kjv


17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?

18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?

19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.

20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?

21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's

Is it possible, that Caesar's image will be inscribed on the currency of the jews? The logical answer is no. The romans where ruling and the people were doing business and paying tax to Caesar, most likely in the currency of the romans.

Hence the conclusion amongst theologians and bible scholars and informal people who study the bible like me is that when people came to the temple - based on the need/urge by the pharisees to follow the law strictly - people needed to first change their currency to shekels and then proceed to change their shekels to produce which they can present as sacrifices in the temple for worship.

This where/why usury became likely.

Even the Lord Jesus made reference to this in a parable in matthew 25:14-30 kjv

14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.

18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This parable shows a master asking a servant why he didnt give his talent to the temple exchangers, to use it to do business and make money through usury. Please look at the google definition of usury.

usury
ˈjuːʒ(ə)ri/

noun
the action or practice of lending money at unreasonably high rates of interest.
"the medieval prohibition on usury"
synonyms: extortionate moneylending, payday lending; More
archaic
interest at unreasonably high rates



And as I have shown you through scripture in my last posted. God hated usury and warned them against practicing usury towards each other........

So what else is your claim.......