How true this is that God does not need us but we need, I have the following questions if anyone can help out:-

1. If God has not made us, what would have happened to us?

2. A man not created; can he be missing something he’s not aware of?

3. If we were not created, someone would say we would have missed all the beautiful things of this world, but what about those that died in war, famine, or killed by enemies etc. What kind of enjoyment or pleasure did they derived by coming into this world

4. If we were created out of love, then it should not matter what we do, because we did not asked to be created in the first place

5. Every product is as a result of a need or a purpose and to benefit the maker, if God made us, we are his product and should accept full responsibility for our existence unless we both exist together as one and only God in different manifestations so we both share the responsibility

Please I need your inputs

sarmy:

How true this is that God does not need us but we need, I have the following questions if anyone can help out:-

1. If God has not made us, what would have happened to us?

2. A man not created; can he be missing something he’s not aware of?

3. If we were not created, someone would say we would have missed all the beautiful things of this world, but what about those that died in war, famine, or killed by enemies etc. What kind of enjoyment or pleasure did they derived by coming into this world

4. If we were created out of love, then it should not matter what we do, because we did not asked to be created in the first place

5. Every product is as a result of a need or a purpose and to benefit the maker, if God made us, we are his product and should accept full responsibility for our existence unless we both exist together as one and only God in different manifestations so we both share the responsibility

Please I need your inputs

My own answers to the questions;
1)If God had not made us, we would not have existed to be driving ourselves nuts with all these unproven mythological crap that go with religions, and not be beaten ourselves in the head with books arguing back and forth on whose idea of God is right or wrong.

2)No, man can't miss anything when man does not exist.

3)If we had not been created, there would have been no "someone" talking about what was missed. There would have been nobody to have died in wars, no famine to experience, nor would there have been enemies to have been killed by. There would have been nothing.

4)I am quite with you on that one.

5)You just spoke my language, right there.


My input is very clear on this one. We were created by the creator because the creator God needed to create us. Without God, there is no us, and without us there is no God to talk about.  The creator and the created are one inseparable unit in an eternal dance of creation. They both create each other, thus they need each other for existence.

Jenwitemi's illogical fantasies again?

Maybe we can resolve it this way for you: if God did not create anything: then God would not be a creator. In other words he would not be referred to as a creator. Indeed there would be nothing and nobody to refer to him as such. Thus the act of creating is what makes him a creator. It is not what makes him EXIST ab-initio.

The fact of God's being a creator is ALTOGETHER different from HIS EXISTENCE - his existence NOT contingent on whether he creates anything or not.

So for example if YOU create works of art you are an artist. This does not mean that if you do not create works of art then you do not exist. That would be a ludicruous line of thinking. Its that simple.

Jenwitemi:

My own answers to the questions;
1)If God had not made us, we would not have existed to be driving ourselves nuts with all these unproven mythological crap that go with religions, and not be beaten ourselves in the head with books arguing back and forth on whose idea of God is right or wrong.

2)No, man can't miss anything when man does not exist.

3)If we had not been created, there would have been no "someone" talking about what was missed. There would have been nobody to have died in wars, no famine to experience, nor would there have been enemies to have been killed by. There would have been nothing.

4)I am quite with you on that one.

5)You just spoke my language, right there.


My input is very clear on this one. We were created by the creator because the creator God needed to create us. Without God, there is no us, and without us there is no God to talk about.  The creator and the created are one inseparable unit in an eternal dance of creation. T[b]hey both create each other[/b], thus they need each other for existence.

If the creator actually needed to create us and He made us, therefore we could not have created him as he would have been existing before creating us, so it's either He created us or we both exist together as one from the start.

But to say that both the creator and the created are inseparable, can you expand this a little more, that seems to be the main problem regarding our existence here on earth, could this mean that "I and my father are one" is applicable to all men as in our relationship with God.

Lack of understanding of our real identify seems to be the root cause of all problems,

Deep Sight:

Jenwitemi's illogical fantasies again?

Maybe we can resolve it this way for you: if God did not create anything: then God would not be a creator. In order words he would not be referred to as a creator. Indeed there would be nothing and nobody to refer to him as such. Thus the act of creating is what makes him a creator.

This is ALTOGETHER different from HIS EXISTENCE - THAT IS NOT contingent on whether he creates anything or not.

Hi Deep Sight, do you think He created us because He needed us and we needed not to have been created but he chose to and should solely responsible for all things or we both exists together as one and therefore co-responsible

@ Sarmy -

I can't start this all over again. Jenwitemi's serial delusions have already been duscussed in-toto here -

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-459287.0.html

sarmy:

If the creator actually needed to create us and He made us, therefore we could not have created him as he would have been existing before creating us, so it's either He created us or we both exist together as one from the start.

That is the truth. There is only one of us here. There is only one entity here. The rest of us are just mere temporal expressions of that one single entity that is God. For example, there are estimated 6 billion plus humans on the face of the planet. That makes 6 billion plus temporal expressions of one God. If 10 persons are sitting in a room looking at each other, that means the one creator God looking at itself through 10 pairs of eyes. Think of the ocean and the billions of wave crests on it. God is the ocean and each one of us represent each wave crest. Where does the ocean ends and the wave crests begin? The ocean is in the crests and the crests are in the ocean.

sarmy:

But to say that both the creator and the created are inseparable, can you expand this a little more, that seems to be the main problem regarding our existence here on earth,

See my post above.

sarmy:

could this mean that "I and my father are one" is applicable to all men as in our relationship with God.

EXACTAMENTE! That is just it. Not only to all humans, but to all living things. That is the height of humility, is it not?

sarmy:

Lack of understanding of our real identity seems to be the root cause of all problems,

That's the core of our problem, sarmy. You know the ancient phrase, "KNOW THYSELF". That we do not know who we are is the true FALL of man.

Deep Sight:

@ Sarmy -

I can't start this all over again. Jenwitemi's serial delusions have already been duscussed in-toto here -

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-459287.0.html

We are all in an illusion, bro. Your own concept of God is no less a delusion than my own.

GOD needs us to shows his workings, God created us out of love, to see himself amongst men, doing wonderful stuffs., he created us to fellowship with us, who are we that he is mindful of,

GOD needs us, for we carry in us the evidence that God exists,

Deep Sight:

Jenwitemi's illogical fantasies again?

Maybe we can resolve it this way for you: if God did not create anything: then God would not be a creator. In other words he would not be referred to as a creator. Indeed there would be nothing and nobody to refer to him as such. Thus the act of creating is what makes him a creator. It is not what makes him EXIST ab-initio.

The fact of God's being a creator is ALTOGETHER different from HIS EXISTENCE - his existence NOT contingent on whether he creates anything or not.

So for example if YOU create works of art you are an artist. This does not mean that if you do not create works of art then you do not exist. That would be a ludicruous line of thinking. Its that simple.

This is just brilliant!

to think he is also responsible for this intricately wound thread of insanity we all exhibit every now and then, fascinating

InesQor:

This is just brilliant!

What is so brilliant about that? I ask whether God can be proven to exist without us sentient beings there to help substantiate God's own existence. Without us sentients, God can neither be known, nor be proven to exist, simply because there will be no sentient around to either know, or prove it's existence. Full stop.

searchcorp:

GOD needs us to shows his workings,  God created us out of love, to see himself amongst men, doing wonderful stuffs., he created us to fellowship with us, who are we that he is mindful of,

Who are we that God should be mindful, you ask? You have already answered that question yourself, but i will add a little more.

Because we are a very crucial functioning parts/expressions of God serving the function that you yourself already mentioned in your post. We are vastly important to God because we are IT, as well as it is US. Through us, God can be.

searchcorp:

GOD needs us, for we carry in us the evidence that God exists,

Exactly!

Jenwitemi:

What is so brilliant about that? I ask whether God can be proven to exist without us sentient beings there to help substantiate God's own existence. Without us sentients, God can neither be known, nor proven to exist, simply because there will be nobody to either know, or prove it's existence. Full stop.

It seems people will find it difficult to comprehend this idea of a creator who even though has created other creations but will not be a creator until aknowledge, that may be difficult to understand

I think if you are talking from the perspective of us in the physical plane, if we all believe there is no God then there will be no God to us even though He exist in another dimention
I think thats the gist.

Deep Sight:

Maybe we can resolve it this way for you: if God did not create anything: then God would not be a creator. In other words he would not be referred to as a creator. Indeed there would be nothing and nobody to refer to him as such. Thus the act of creating is what makes him a creator. It is not what makes him EXIST ab-initio.

We've been through all this already, so no need to start repeating oneself like a broken record. I have properly explained in the other thread what my stand is. Besides, in that thread the deity being referred to was the biblical jewish deity, because if i remembered well, i used "HE" in my opening post of that thread, indicating clearly which deity i was referring to. While i don't subscribe to this deity being the true creator God, neither can shallow sight tell me now that he shares the same view as christians that the bible god is the true god, or else he wouldn't be a deist that he claims himself to be.

sarmy:

It seems people will find it difficult to comprehend this idea of a creator who even though has created other creations but will not be a creator until aknowledge, that may be difficult to understand

I think  if you are talking from the perspective of us in the physical plane, if we all believe there is no God then there will be no God to us even though He exist in another dimention
I think thats the gist.

Exactly! Since we live on this plane of existence, here is where it counts, to us. You seem to show deeper contemplative ability than shallow sight , sarmy. Good on you.

Jenwitemi:

Who are we that God should be mindful, you ask? You have already answered that question yourself, but i will add a little more.

Because we are a very crucial functioning parts/expressions of God serving the function that you yourself already mentioned in your post. We are vastly important to God because we are IT, as well as it is US. Through us, God can be.
Exactly!

it appears u re the only person on nairaland that knows about GOD!

guys, why make God an overly complex cosmic entity just because we cannot figure out why he has a mole on his nose, It becomes a divine mystery only to be believed without question.

searchcorp:


it appears u re the only person on nairaland that knows about GOD!

Everybody know about "their" God, and i know mine. Get it?

Jenwitemi:

Exactly! Since we live on this plane of existence, here is where it counts, to us. .

Seems like a relationaship thing, creator and his creations just thesame way a husband can not be a husband until there is a wife to call him one even though he has the ability.

Like you said this is where it counts, over there is could be a different game entirely

Dear Sarmy, I do not know whether you and Mr. Jenwitemi are on the same page.

If i do not marry a woman, i am not a husband.

That does not mean that if i do not marry a woman then i do not exist.

Two different things. I sense you recognise this simple distinction, but Mr. Jenwitemi simply doesn't get it.

I had tried to explain it earlier -

Deep Sight:

Jenwitemi's illogical fantasies again?

Maybe we can resolve it this way for you: if God did not create anything: then God would not be a creator. In other words he would not be referred to as a creator. Indeed there would be nothing and nobody to refer to him as such. Thus the act of creating is what makes him a creator. It is not what makes him EXIST ab-initio.

The fact of God's being a creator is ALTOGETHER different from HIS EXISTENCE - his existence NOT contingent on whether he creates anything or not.

So for example if YOU create works of art you are an artist. This does not mean that if you do not create works of art then you do not exist. That would be a ludicruous line of thinking. Its that simple.

Deep Sight:

Dear Sarmy, I do not know whether you and Mr. Jenwitemi are on the same page.

If i do not marry a woman, i am not a husband.

That does not mean that if i do not marry a woman then i do not exist.

Two different things. I sense you recognise this simple distinction, but Mr. Jenwitemi simply doesn't get it.

I had tried to explain it earlier -

I do get your point, I think what he's trying to explain is that for example, if a man is yet to marry a woman, though he's a man but he's yet to assume the title of a husband, so the man marries the woman and the marriage makes him a husband.

Likewise, a creator without a creation can exist as a different [b]personality [/b]but not as a creator, just like a man who is yet to get a woman can not be reffered to as a husband, that's why Jenwitemi said both the creator and the creation created each other like man and woman both made themselves husband and wife.

This is what I think he meant.

Not that God does not exist without His creation but that He can not be referred to as such without His concious creation

Not that God does not exist without His creation but that He can not be referred to as such CREATOR without His concious creation

Inserted in red above: is an adjustment i believe reflects more correctly the truth.

sarmy:

I do get your point, I think what he's trying to explain is that for example, if a man is yet to marry a woman, though he's a man but he's yet to assume the title of a husband, so the man marries the woman and the marriage makes him a husband.

Likewise, a creator without a creation can exist as a different [b]personality [/b]but not as a creator, just like a man who is yet to get a woman can not be reffered to as a husband, that's why Jenwitemi said both the creator and the creation created each other like man and woman both made themselves husband and wife.

This is what I think he meant.

Not that God does not exist without His creation but that He can not be referred to as such without His concious creation

sarmy:

Seems like a relationaship thing, creator and his creations just thesame way a husband can not be a husband until there is a wife to call him one even though he has the ability.

Like you said this is where it counts, over there is could be a different game entirely

Sarmy is very perceptive.

Mr. Jenwitemi got it wrong because he expressly and repeatedly stated that without the recognition of God by created beings, then God does not exist. That is wrong because -

  1.If the creator DID create the created: that would remain true REGARDLESS of whether the created beings know of or recognise their creator. For crying out loud, this is so bleeding obvious as it is the case with animals - they do not regognise the concept of a transcendental creator, do they? Now would this in any way vitiate the creator's existence? It would not. So why would the non-recognition of the creator by sentient beings vitiate the creator's existence? Recall that Mr. Jenwitemi was so intrepid as to make the frankly comical assertion that the Solar System did not exist until humans began to observe it. Justify that.

  2. Being a creator is differnet from existing as a deity or spirit being. Just as surely as being a husband is different from existing as a man. I am not married: and yet i exist, do i not? ? ?

Jenwitemi:

Sarmy is very perceptive.

Please do not attempt tpo hide behind the perceptiveness of Sarmy. Fact is that NOWHERE has Sarmy stated that God would not exist without created beings. NOWHERE. Similarly NOWHERE has Sarmy stated that the created create the creator. NOWHERE. Sarmy makes a careful and apt distinction - he understands that the title "creator" and the title "husband' - are titles that issue from an act of creating or an act of marriage. Such acts would not be possible if the Deity did not already exist to do the act, or the man already exist to enter into the marraige.

You are confused by very simple terminology.

Finally I am certain that Sarmy would not subscribe to the frankly illiterate view that planets in the solar system or the andromeda galaxy came into existence only when men invented telescopes.

Deep Sight:

Inserted in red above: is an adjustment i believe reflects more correctly the truth.

Not that God does not exist without His creation but that He can not be referred to as such without His concious creation

Hi Deepsight and Sarmy. My view is that the above statements are not entirely correct. God is the creator, not because he created creations but because the living ability to create is in God. Whether or not, this ability to create is expressed (creations) or unexpressed (no creations) have no bearing to the ability to create. The ability to create is not the same thing with the expression of the creative ability that is in God. Thus God is the creator whether or not he expresses his creative ability. Since the creative ability is in God, it is also irrelevant whether his creatures percieves his existence or not. A crude analogy may suffice. Daylight did not exist because the eyes and the visual cortex can percieve it rather it exists because of the sun and its effect on the blue planet. Thus if one suddenly regains his sight and sees daylight for the first time, it does not mean that there was no daylight all the time that he is blind. Similarly if one is to go blind and cannot percieve daylight, then daylight did not cease on the day he has gone blind. This claim that all are God and God is  all is wrong in my view. People are confusing the sun and its rays. I challenge anybody who says he is a God to give me a step by step insight/DESCRIPTION on the origin and evolution of our physical universe, not to mention, the spirtitual and the divine worlds. Stay blessed.

He could have created anything else to serve the purpose of us being in existence, So yes, we need Him

m_nwankwo:

Hi Deepsight and Sarmy. My view is that the above statements are not entirely correct. God is the creator, not because he created creations but because the living ability to create is in God. Whether or not, this ability to create is expressed (creations) or unexpressed (no creations) have no bearing to the ability to create. The ability to create is not the same thing with the expression of the creative ability that is in God. Thus God is the creator whether or not he expresses his creative ability. Since the creative ability is in God, it is also irrelevant whether his creatures percieves his existence or not. A crude analogy may suffice. Daylight did not exist because the eyes and the visual cortex can percieve it rather it exists because of the sun and its effect on the blue planet. Thus if one suddenly regains his sight and sees daylight for the first time, it does not mean that there was no daylight all the time that he is blind. Similarly if one is to go blind and cannot percieve daylight, then daylight did not cease on the day he has gone blind. This claim that all are God and God is  all is wrong in my view. People are confusing the sun and its rays. I challenge anybody who says he is a God to give me a step by step insight/DESCRIPTION on the origin and evolution of our physical universe, not to mention, the spirtitual and the divine worlds. Stay blessed.

Hi M_Nwankwo.

Would you describe a person who has the ability to paint but has never painted at all as an artist?

Would you describe me as an engineer merely because the ability to study and apply engineering resides in me?

Deep Sight:

Hi M_Nwankwo.

Would you describe a person who has the ability to paint but has never painted at all as an artist?

Would you describe me as an engineer merely because the ability to study and apply engineering resides in me?

Hi Deepsight. Yes, what does the painting is the ability and not the expression of the ability. Thus one who has the abilty to paint or the ability to produce engineering works is an artist or an engineer. But even this remains a very crude analogy for in these earthly examples, the abilty was acquired or developed, presuppossing that at some time the one who is an artist today is not one several years ago. With respect to God, the ability has no beginning and no end for it is living in God. Stay blessed.

^^^ Brilliant as always. Accepted.

Deep Sight:

^^^ Brilliant as always. Accepted.

Thanks for your kind words. Stay blessed.