tartar9:


Take responsibility for what,the OP's moronism?

Muslims surely respect their women.

budaatum:

Islam is not asking anyone in UK to wear a burqa, like you imply here. The battle is for the individual's right to wear whatever pleases them. And I would present this same argument if you had wanted to ban me from walking down the streets in my bra and knickers, which is not against the law, per se, in UK. Though I know I'd better not go near a school, or in a bank or a court in just those!

Islam is not asking everyone to wear the burka in the UK (because they are still in the minority) but asked every women to wear it in Saudi Arabia (because they are the majority). The asked every woman to wear Islamically sanctioned headscarf in Iran because they are they majority, can you see the pattern? Is there fashion choice, for women, in Islamic countries? No. Are women expected to dress according to state sanctioned dress codes? Yes. Where is the element of free choice in Islam?

Its very unfortunate that you have to disrespect women, on this forum, by uploading a picture of a half-naked woman to drive your point. That's silly bro!

budaatum:
True2god, you know nothing about buda, and your assumptions about buda make you argue against some imaginary buda you've made up in your head! It kind of makes what you say about buda meaningless to buda in particular, despite buda's understanding of your hatred for Islam.

So, let me inform you a little bit. First, buda would inform you that gods, all of them, are figments of your imagination, things you cook up in your heads and claim exist with absolutely no regard to the evidence. buda does not mind this imaginary creation of gods in people's heads, except that the imaginary cooking up of things in your heads transfers from gods to the entire universe at times as you yourself show by cooking up imaginary atrocities that Muslims have done to you and in UK, and the Muslim hypocrite buda you seem to see before you.

The fact that some countries behave badly does not mean UK, a nation that sees itself as far above the rest, should stoop so low to ignorant nation's levels. UK is a country with Christian values in it's dna. It is not a nation quick to anger, does not disregard evidence and make up silly rhetoric and call it true, remembers history - including what it as a nation has done to others, though quick to forget bad done to it; and UK is most mindful and vigilant of repeating the mistakes of the past, and God, saves the Queen and our most illustrious nation because of all that!

I am not joining you in some argument about who has the biggest god as it would be rather silly arguing which is the biggest amongst two imaginary entities. But one thing I know is that Christianity, which I assume to be your preferred sort of god, does not exactly advocate an eye for an eye as you claim. And the fact that Muslims admire your countries should be a reason to rejoice, since they have seen the good you seem to offer and want some of it. In no time now, they might take it back to their countries and eventually join you in singing Jesus is Lord, so long as you continue to ensure your behaviour is better than their's and don't get frustrated and become like them instead!

Bros, I dnt know the basis of your lecture; the debate is about Islamic veil and the danger it posed to the larger society which you blindly refused to see. The UK is never a standard to judge morality. The most vicious and bloodletting empire the world ever had is the British empire. The empire that committed the most genocide known to man is the British empire. You might need to learn about this fact since you willfully choose to be a ignorant of this fact. If the British people could turn back the hands of time, they will repeat what they did in the past, and are still doing presently (especially in Africa and the Arab world).

The British people had suddenly become role models and reasonable people because they have accommodated Muslims, even against the wishes of millions of white British natives, who Muslims will at the same time call 'racist', 'Nazis', 'facist' and 'bigots' in a bid to shut down any discussion about Islam in public discourse.

While you Muslims praised Christian love and tolerance, do you reciprocate same in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Egypt, Sudan, etc. Do you have different moral standard for Christians and Muslims? Can a Christian make demand in Iran, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan?

I am not British bro! If Muslims admire Britain, they must be thankful to the locals who provided them comfort and safety and obey the law. Have you watched Muslim problems in Birmingham and Luton? Go watch the videos, open your mind and make a sound judgement.

true2god:
Bros, I dnt know the basis of your lecture; the debate is about Islamic veil and the danger it posed to the larger society which you blindly refused to see. The UK is never a standard to judge morality. The most vicious and bloodletting empire the world ever had is the British empire. The empire that committed the most genocide known to man is the British empire. You might need to learn about this fact since you willfully choose to be a ignorant of this fact. If the British people could turn back the hands of time, they will repeat what they did in the past, and are still doing presently (especially in Africa and the Arab world).

(You might want to provide evidence for that bonded above please.)

You're getting much closer. A nation with a history as you've described above should not go behaving as you advocate they now should. They should learn from their past and amend their behaviour, and UK has done so.

I disagree that they are still doing it in Africa and the Arab world! They may be trying to, but we Africans are way more intelligent today than to allow anyone to get away with what the British got away with in the past. And if they still are with the Arabs, then I can see why the Arabs might want to terrorise Britain. If they still did what they used to do in Africa, wouldn't you too?

However, the facts are that the burqa and Islamic veil pose no danger to the larger society and it has not been complicit in a terrorist act in UK so banning it is rather silly. To begin with, a very tiny number of people wear it here. They know where it's not to be worn. They do no harm to anyone by wearing it. And if they do wear it and are terrorists, in UK it's the same as wearing a sign saying "I am a terrorist" on your back, So why ban it? When it even serves as a form of identification?

But more importantly, when we go for the burqa and people like me cheer them on, they would go for the mosque, then go for the Muslim, and go for the Asians, then when they come for me, the black person, is that the time that I begin to oppose them?

Islam and Christianity do me no ill. I dislike the hatred some proclaim in the name of their loving gods, but that's not the case with the majority of the adherents. They both have stupid people amongst them, but I'm not stupid enough as to claim some bad people of either religion is a reason for eradicating everyone of those religions. I have Muslims in my family, I have Muslim friends, I work with them and buy meat from them in the market and none of them are like you seem to believe they are and barring evidence to support you, you are just going to have to continue believing that I blindly refuse to see what is not there and I'm ignorant and incapable of becoming a bigot like you.

true2god:
If Muslims admire Britain, they must be thankful to the locals who provided them comfort and safety and obey the law. Have you watched Muslim problems in Birmingham and Luton? Go watch the videos, open your mind and make a sound judgement.

They are thankful! And they must obey the law. UK has no law banning burqas!

And watching videos of Luton and Birmingham just goes to show how little you actually know about what happened there! But now I understand how you get to be how you are. Not everyone looks only at the surface and runs with it believing what has been shown to them. Go dig deeper and you'd know, instead of lazily believing as you seem to currently do!

true2god:
Islam is not asking everyone to wear the burka in the UK (because they are still in the minority) but asked every women to wear it in Saudi Arabia (because they are the majority). The asked every woman to wear Islamically sanctioned headscarf in Iran because they are they majority, can you see the pattern? Is there fashion choice, for women, in Islamic countries? No. Are women expected to dress according to state sanctioned dress codes? Yes. Where is the element of free choice in Islam?

Its very unfortunate that you have to disrespect women, on this forum, by uploading a picture of a half-naked woman to drive your point. That's silly bro!

Listen to yourself, assuming to be spokesperson for everyone else!

That picture I posted is of Serena Williams, a woman most women, and men, admire for her balls, so figure!

I am not here discussing what happens in Iran or Saudi Arabia. No one can come to UK and impose on us what we shall do. You can't impose on us with religion, and you can't impose on us with the fear of religion as you think some could! It's for the same reason the majority who are non-burqa wearing people in UK today cannot impose a ban on the minority burqa wearers, and thankfully, the majority of us don't even want to.

We take special care in protecting the minority because history has shown us that while we might be the majority today there's nothing to stop us being the minority in the future, and the exact same laws that we may have used to oppress the minority would still exist to be used against us when the table turns. So we put good laws on the table instead of bad ones! That's our pattern. Not some silly one practised in Iran or Saudi Arabia. And when you come here, you must obey our laws, or we will arrest you!

Isn't wisdom and intelligence just amazingly wonderful!

budaatum:

(You might want to provide evidence for that bonded above please.)

You're getting much closer. A nation with a history as you've described above should not go behaving as you advocate they now should. They should learn from their past and amend their behaviour, and UK has done so.

I disagree that they are still doing it in Africa and the Arab world! They may be trying to, but we Africans are way more intelligent today than to allow anyone to get away with what the British got away with in the past. And if they still are with the Arabs, then I can see why the Arabs might want to terrorise Britain. If they still did what they used to do in Africa, wouldn't you too?

However, the facts are that the burqa and Islamic veil pose no danger to the larger society and it has not been complicit in a terrorist act in UK so banning it is rather silly. To begin with, a very tiny number of people wear it here. They know where it's not to be worn. They do no harm to anyone by wearing it. And if they do wear it and are terrorists, in UK it's the same as wearing a sign saying "I am a terrorist" on your back, So why ban it? When it even serves as a form of identification?

But more importantly, when we go for the burqa and people like me cheer them on, they would go for the mosque, then go for the Muslim, and go for the Asians, then when they come for me, the black person, is that the time that I begin to oppose them?

Islam and Christianity do me no ill. I dislike the hatred some proclaim in the name of their loving gods, but that's not the case with the majority of the adherents. They both have stupid people amongst them, but I'm not stupid enough as to claim some bad people of either religion is a reason for eradicating everyone of those religions. I have Muslims in my family, I have Muslim friends, I work with them and buy meat from them in the market and none of them are like you seem to believe they are and barring evidence to support you, you are just going to have to continue believing that I blindly refuse to see what is not there and I'm ignorant and incapable of becoming a bigot like you.

For your 'bolded', the evidence is easy to get if you choose not t be lazy; you can get any news/info with a simple google search. At a time, the Nigerian military banned burka in borno state as a result of suicide bombers using it as a cover.

I laughed when you assumed that the British people are atoning their past 'mistakes' and would no longer commit genocide against the weak and defenseless people. You are 100% wrong bro! The British people are merely trying to adapt to present global reality and are aligning their decisions and policies to match current international demands, they haven't changed a bit. Go and watch the discussion between Prez F.D. Roosevelt (the former US President) and Winston Churchill (the former British PM) and you will understand, in full, the British post-WW2 and post-colonial policies in African and the middle East. You understand how ignorant you are in international politics. I don't know the part of Africa you are from, my brother you are still being colonized but your educational curriculum has been designed to tell you that colonialism is a thing of the past. Don't be deceived bro! All your francophone leaders still send their score cards to Paris while the anglophone leaders still report to their at Masters in 10 Downing street London. I won't teach you more than this, especially for someone who will never appreciate.

Your attempt to make a moral equivalence of all religion is stupid. The creed of a religion defines a religion and how its followers will relate to other people. Any religion that its leader made terror, war and genocide the foundation of this its tenet should not be granted a religious status. Have you read the history of Islam? Do you know how non-Muslims are being treated in Saudi Arabia and Iran (the leaders of the Sunnis and Shi'a Muslims)? Stop putting your head in the sand, like an ostrich. Straighten your head and tell the truth without employing any form of political correctness, which your write-up is basically promoting. Say the facts bro!

I have been expecting you to call me a 'bigot', since that's the keyword for people of dissenting views who don't follow the narrative of the immoral leftists.

But you are a bigot. The cap fits! That's why you expect it, but now want to claim it's immoral leftist! Bigotry is the result of selecting evidence or twisting available evidence to support your position. We get that from UKIP. They too say ban the burqa. Remember how many seats they won in the last elections? They lost 123 previously held councillor seats and ended up with only 3! And that's out of about 5000 seats contested!

UK is not Borno State! There is no evidence to suggest burqas are complicit in any crime in UK! And Brits are not stupid enough to be scared for no reason.

Perhaps you're the one who should be mindful of irrelevant equivalences!

true2god:
For your 'bolded', the evidence is easy to get if you choose not t be lazy; you can get any news/info with a simple google search. At a time, the Nigerian military banned burka in borno state as a result of suicide bombers using it as a cover.

I laughed when you assumed that the British people are atoning their past 'mistakes' and would no longer commit genocide against the weak and defenseless people. You are 100% wrong bro! The British people are merely trying to adapt to present global reality and are aligning their decisions and policies to match current international demands, they haven't changed a bit. Go and watch the discussion between Prez F.D. Roosevelt (the former US President) and Winston Churchill (the former British PM) and you will understand, in full, the British post-WW2 and post-colonial policies in African and the middle East. You understand how ignorant you are in international politics. I don't know the part of Africa you are from, my brother you are still being colonized but your educational curriculum has been designed to tell you that colonialism is a thing of the past. Don't be deceived bro! All your francophone leaders still send their score cards to Paris while the anglophone leaders still report to their at Masters in 10 Downing street London. I won't teach you more than this, especially for someone who will never appreciate.

Your attempt to make a moral equivalence of all religion is stupid. The creed of a religion defines a religion and how its followers will relate to other people. Any religion that its leader made terror, war and genocide the foundation of this its tenet should not be granted a religious status. Have you read the history of Islam? Do you know how non-Muslims are being treated in Saudi Arabia and Iran (the leaders of the Sunnis and Shi'a Muslims)? Stop putting your head in the sand, like an ostrich. Straighten your head and tell the truth without employing any form of political correctness, which your write-up is basically promoting. Say the facts bro!

I have been expecting you to call me a 'bigot', since that's the keyword for people of dissenting views who don't follow the narrative of the immoral leftists.

budaatum:
But you are a bigot. The cap fits! That's why you expect it, but now want to claim it's immoral leftist! Bigotry is the result of selecting evidence or twisting available evidence to support your position. We get that from UKIP. They too say ban the burqa. Remember how many seats they won in the last elections? They lost 123 previously held councillor seats and ended up with only 3! And that's out of about 5000 seats contested!

UK is not Borno State! There is no evidence to suggest burqas are complicit in any crime in UK! And Brits are not stupid enough to be scared for no reason.

Perhaps you're the one who should be mindful of irrelevant equivalences!

Maybe your eyes were blinded by this post:

Your attempt to make a moral equivalence of all religion is stupid. The creed of a religion defines a religion and how its followers will relate to other people. Any religion that its leader made terror, war and genocide the foundation of this its tenet should not be granted a religious status. Have you read the history of Islam? Do you know how non-Muslims are being treated in Saudi Arabia and Iran (the leaders of the Sunnis and Shi'a Muslims)? Stop putting your head in the sand, like an ostrich. Straighten your head and tell the truth without employing any form of political correctness, which your write-up is basically promoting. Say the facts bro!

Seems you pick and choose any part of my comment you deem fit.

true2god:

Have you read the history of Islam? Do you know how non-Muslims are being treated in Saudi Arabia and Iran (the leaders of the Sunnis and Shi'a Muslims)? Stop putting your head in the sand, like an ostrich. Straighten your head and tell the truth without employing any form of political correctness, which your write-up is basically promoting. Say the facts bro!

Have you read the history of Christianity, or that of Judaism? Was it not Christian Britain you yourself claimed did all those nasty things you claimed they did in Africa and the Arab world, and are still doing? How about Judaism? God supposedly telling them to go steal land off it's rightful owners because "they are the chosen few"! Are they not still stealing from the Palestinians today? Should I now judge all the adherents of these religions by their historical past, or what some currently are doing today? If not, why ask me to do that where the religion you dislike is concerned?

You religious people all have one thing in common. You want to hide behind your gods when you commit your atrocities! That's the same thing you are doing here. You want to hide your own dislike of Islam behind your god. Instead of accepting your own bigotry, you want to make it your god's bigotry. It's like you see yourselves as soldiers for your gods as if your gods themselves are so powerless they can't fight for themselves. Is that not also what you accuse Muslims of doing? Do tell, how do you differ from one another? You're beginning to make me consider that perhaps I'm on the wrong end here, and should be advocating not only for a burqa ban but a complete god ban instead! There you go! buda bans the gods, or anyone even thinking about gods! Except I'm aware that that just makes me a greater bigot myself!

I am from the Orolu Kingdom of Ifon Osun in Osun State. We have a majority Muslim community, having been idol worshippers in the past and Christians too. Our current Oba is a Muslim. Many burqa wearing people live in the kingdom. But how many bombs have gone off in the Kingdom? Zero! But I should ban the burqa, right? Because a bomb went off in Borno and Yemen or Saudi Arabia? And can they make us all Muslims? What a silly thought! Ordinary Ogun worshippers would chase anyone who even thinks it out of town, not to talk of the more powerful Sango people, and I am certain the Christians would have none with their trust in God and not being weak like you are appearing to be. But here you are, a Christian, cowering in fear as if the God you worship is asleep in heaven instead of being your shepherd and watching over your useless ass!

I am not advocating political correctness, another phrase for turning the other cheek, mind. I just refuse to join gutter dwellers in gutter living, is all. Take Saudi Arabia. I detest what they are doing in Yemen. They even have the support of America and Britain, and some of us are strongly lobbying against British support for Saudi Arabia against Yemen. See here and here and here.

If I were from Yemen, I don't think I would have to be a Muslim, or a woman before putting on a burqa and blowing up your hypocrite ass, UK! But an intelligent person would understand that even the UK public don't support the government on this. So why blow up we the people? And they don't.

Those who know UK history would know that we've been here before. In the 70s and 80s, when Irish terrorism was at its peak with bombs going off just about every week, the Irish accent was the burqa of the day, and signs claiming "no dogs, no blacks, no Irish" was not uncommon outside establishments. But it did not solve the problem. A lot of reconciliation had to happen, a turning of the other cheek (except, UK turned cheeks after being the slapper over and over again!).

Facts, my dear, are just that, facts. Anyone can pull out one's that support their position so smart people dig deeper so as to get an understanding behind the facts. If there is evidence available to support burqa banning in UK, provide it. Or go ban burqas in Borno if the evidence supports a ban there!

I reject discrimination against anyone, including Muslims, but Muslims have to learn to adapt to the cultures they inhabit. They are needlessly exclusionary wherever they find themselves. The Islamic texts do not mandate anyone to wear full body veils or cover their faces. It should be an easy thing to compromise on for the sake of assimilation into foreign countries. If you're coming from Pakistan, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan or wherever, and you find yourself in the UK, France, Germany, Sweden etc, try to assimilate and interact and contribute to social cohesion, rather than putting up a wall to exclude everyone else. If your burka is that important to you, don't move to those countries and spit on their sense of social cohesion with alien behavior. These things should be common sense, but many Muslims capitalize on the liberties and generosity of their host communities in the West to seek to impose their own will. Yet, they do not compromise on their values in their own societies to outsiders.

Obi1kenobi:
I reject discrimination against anyone, including Muslims, but Muslims have to learn to adapt to the cultures they inhabit. They are needlessly exclusionary wherever they find themselves. The Islamic texts do not mandate anyone to wear full body veils or cover their faces. It should be an easy thing to compromise on for the sake of assimilation into foreign countries. If you're coming from Pakistan, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan or wherever, and you find yourself in the UK, France, Germany, Sweden etc, try to assimilate and interact and contribute to social cohesion, rather than putting up a wall to exclude everyone else. If your burka is that important to you, don't move to those countries and spit on their sense of social cohesion with alien behavior. These things should be common sense, but many Muslims capitalize on the liberties and generosity of their host communities in the West to seek to impose their own will. Yet, they do not compromise on their values in their own societies to outsiders.

This is the commonsense budaatam lacks. I think you comprehend the scenario far better.

Obi1kenobi:
I reject discrimination against anyone, including Muslims, but Muslims have to learn to adapt to the cultures they inhabit. They are needlessly exclusionary wherever they find themselves. The Islamic texts do not mandate anyone to wear full body veils or cover their faces. It should be an easy thing to compromise on for the sake of assimilation into foreign countries. If you're coming from Pakistan, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan or wherever, and you find yourself in the UK, France, Germany, Sweden etc, try to assimilate and interact and contribute to social cohesion, rather than putting up a wall to exclude everyone else. If your burka is that important to you, don't move to those countries and spit on their sense of social cohesion with alien behavior. These things should be common sense, but many Muslims capitalize on the liberties and generosity of their host communities in the West to seek to impose their own will. Yet, they do not compromise on their values in their own societies to outsiders.

My dear person, UK has no laws against what anyone chooses to wear! We strongly believe in the sovereignty of the individual person and would not deign to assume to legislate for such things. If people don't obey the law, we know what to do with them and would not allow anyone not to. But people, including Muslims, do obey the laws, and respect others, so a whole London with a non - majority Muslim population does not mind electing a Muslim Mayor nor does Birmingham, Leeds, Blackburn, Sheffield, Oxford, Luton, Oldham, and Rochdale! (Source), nor would we allow them to hold influential positions as shown in this list, and in no instance has anyone advocated the adoption of Islam where they rule!

Even our Home Secretary, Sajid Javid, who is responsible for the internal affairs of England and Wales, and for immigration and citizenship for the United Kingdom and matters of national security, the Security Service (MI5) and who would be responsible for the banning or imposition, though part of the ruling Cabinet, is a Muslim!

I put it to you that if anyone does what some are alleging they do here in UK, we are either stupid, or the allegations are very wrong indeed and lack no merit!

Obi1kenobi:
If your burka is that important to you, don't move to those countries and spit on their sense of social cohesion with alien behavior.

Some people in UK used to say the same thing about we black people, that our black skin was alien and we should go back to our country. The fear that we black people would take over was so rife that on 20 April 1968, British Member of Parliament Enoch Powell went on to make what is popularly known as the "Rivers of Blood" speech, leading to his dismissal from the Shadow Cabinet by Conservative Party leader Edward Heath. Now, wouldn't you call that enlightened behaviour instead of the stupid call for his ban of my black skin!?

Here's an extract from the speech:

"We must be mad, literally mad, as a nation to be permitting the annual inflow of some 50,000 dependents, who are for the most part the material of the future growth of the immigrant descended population. It is like watching a nation busily engaged in heaping up its own funeral pyre. So insane are we that we actually permit unmarried persons to immigrate for the purpose of founding a family with spouses and fiancées whom they have never seen."

budaatum:

My dear person, UK has no laws against what anyone chooses to wear! We strongly believe in the sovereignty of the individual person and would not deign to assume to legislate for such things. If people don't obey the law, we know what to do with them and would not allow anyone not to. But people, including Muslims, do obey the laws, and respect others, so a whole London with a non - majority Muslim population does not mind electing a Muslim Mayor nor does Birmingham, Leeds, Blackburn, Sheffield, Oxford, Luton, Oldham, and Rochdale! (Source), nor would we allow them to hold influential positions as shown in this list, and in no instance has anyone advocated the adoption of Islam where they rule!

Even our Home Secretary, Sajid Javid, who is responsible for the internal affairs of England and Wales, and for immigration and citizenship for the United Kingdom and matters of national security, the Security Service (MI5) and who would be responsible for the banning or imposition, though part of the ruling Cabinet, is a Muslim!

I put it to you that if anyone does what some are alleging they do here in UK, we are either stupid, or the allegations are very wrong indeed and lack no merit!

I'm not sure what the point here is. I haven't insinuated Muslims disobeyed any laws. I'm talking about the effect of fundamentalist behavior (which wearing full veils/burkas is)that violates the social contract of free societies that have given you a home. A host of European countries have banned the burka and a lot of Tory politicians favor a ban too, so it may be a matter of time before the UK follows others. When you're an immigrant, your host community have accorded you a privilege: a privilege that should be taken seriously and in good faith. I can't understand people that come from repressive countries to free Western societies and wall off themselves from their new societies with anti-social behavior (which wearing burkas is) that aggravates their host communities. If the Westerners are too sinful for the standards of the burka wearers and they feel they have to appear like letter boxes to feel pious, maybe they should stay in their damn countries. Not to mention this behavior is often driven by immigrant cultures where women are treated like the property of men. There is a limit to all this political correctness as seen ain the cases of Pakistani rape gangs in the UK where the authorities failed to intervene so as not to upset the precious sensibilities of immigrants.

I'm not British, but if I was, I am going to insist that if you want the privilege of sharing my society, you must assimilate to our free values. We can delude ourselves all we want about the burka being a choice of the wearers, but it's usually a result of repressive indoctrination and it segregates these women from society. People like Khan win elections in the UK because they are urbane, cosmopolitan, assimilated people. No woman who appears like a letterbox with those offensive costumes would win any election in the UK.

Obi1kenobi:
I'm not sure what the point here is. I haven't insinuated Muslims disobeyed any laws. I'm talking about the effect of fundamentalist behavior (which wearing full veils/burkas is)that violates the social contract of free societies that have given you a home. A host of European countries have banned the burka and a lot of Tory politicians favor a ban too, so it may be a matter of time before the UK follows others.

Hold it right there! There are no "lot of Tory politicians favor a ban". Only Boris Johnson has, and he faces being expelled from the party if he's not careful! It is political suicide to take that stance, and UKIP , the only party that called for a burqa ban in the last elections early this year lost 123 of the 126 councillor seats they held up until then! Don't those numbers speak for themself?

As to Europe, you've heard of Brexit, right? We are not Europe and have voted to pack our load and say "hasta la vista Europe" and go be somewhere else (except we haven't a clue where to move to yet).

Obi1kenobi:
wall off themselves from their new societies with anti-social behavior (which wearing burkas is) that aggravates their host communities.

They are not walling themselves off nowhere! And we on the whole, and apart from the tiny few responsible for UKIP holding to 3 seats out of the 126 they once held, don't mind them wearing whatever they want!

Obi1kenobi:
Not to mention this behavior is often driven by immigrant cultures where women are treated like the property of men.

Sorry, but not here in UK where your 3 year old would report you to the authorities for abuse and you lose your child how much more so the wife or older daughter you want to abuse by burqaing!

In fact, it is burqa wearing women who condemn those who wish to ban it the most!

Obi1kenobi:
I'm not British, but if I was, I am going to insist that if you want the privilege of sharing my society, you must assimilate to our free values.

It's true. You are not British. And if you wanted to be British, and before we let you, we will send you for education to learn our sacred values of democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty, mutual respect for and tolerance of those with different faiths and beliefs, and for those without faith, and then we will test you to ensure you really understand them, and then shall we consider your application. The entire thing cost £1,005, so you better think hard or waste your money!

Obi1kenobi:
No woman who appears like a letterbox with those offensive costumes would win any election in the UK.

I agree with you on this one, but I also don't think a full burqa wearing woman has won an election anywhere, so there!

budaatum:

Hold it right there! There are no "lot of Tory politicians favor a ban". Only Boris Johnson has, and he faces being expelled from the party if he's not careful! It is political suicide to take that stance, and UKIP , the only party that called for a burqa ban in the last elections early this year lost 123 of the 126 councillor seats they held up until then! Don't those numbers speak for themself?

Boris Johnson got in trouble for dehumanizing, racially insensitive comments, comparing burka wearers to letter boxes - not for advocating a ban on burkas. That is a mainstream debate by many politicians, tv personalities, clerics/clergy etc. Plenty of British MP's as far back as 2006 have been debating a ban on the burka: both Labour and Tories. Including 2 Prime Ministers of Great Britain:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6058672.stm
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1531106/Brown-breaks-ranks-to-back-Straw-over-lifting-Muslim-veils.html
UKIP's election failures have nothing to do with burkas or otherwise.

As to Europe, you've heard of Brexit, right? We are not Europe and have voted to pack our load and say "hasta la vista Europe" and go be somewhere else (except we haven't a clue where to move to yet).

Funny. Yet, many of the Brexit voters in the UK thought it was good to get away from the "politically correct" edicts delivered from Brussels.

They are not walling themselves off nowhere! And we on the whole, and apart from the tiny few responsible for UKIP holding to 3 seats out of the 126 they once held, don't mind them wearing whatever they want!

The very point of wearing a burka is walling yourself off from hedonistic society: a self-indulgent display of piety. You're in denial.

Sorry, but not here in UK where your 3 year old would report you to the authorities for abuse and you lose your child how much more so the wife or older daughter you want to abuse by burqaing!

In fact, it is burqa wearing women who condemn those who wish to ban it the most!

For a bleeding heart liberal, it's surprising you don't know how power dynamics and suppression in a patriarchal system works. It seems you lot only remember it when it's time to lecture us about the evil white men patriarchy and rape culture like all those campus leftists.
People in bondage learn to love their bonds. Women were allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia some months ago and some women protested against the development. Some convicts get out of prison and deliberately get themselves back to prison because they aren't sure how to function in normal, open society. It's meaningless to say burka wearers themselves support the burka. It might seem a "free choice", but for many of them, they are choices they've been indoctrinated to make.

It's true. You are not British. And if you wanted to be British, and before we let you, we will send you for education to learn our sacred values of democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty, mutual respect for and tolerance of those with different faiths and beliefs, and for those without faith, and then we will test you to ensure you really understand them, and then shall we consider your application. The entire thing cost £1,005, so you better think hard or waste your money!

The very point of those buzzwords about tolerance is the promotion of a pluralistic, inclusive secular society. Those who choose self-segregation like many European Muslim immigrants might not contravene the letter of the law, but they contravene the spirit of the law and the values of Western society. Believe it or not, I have very liberal values. I'm that rare guy you would meet in Nigeria who defends the rights of LGBT people. But it should be really simple, if you're a Pakistani or Afghan who wants to parade around looking like a letter-box, stay in your Pakistani paradise. It shouldn't be that hard. Don't go to the UK or Sweden with your anti-social behavior to aggravate the citizens.

Obi1kenobi:

Don't go to the UK or Sweden with your anti-social behavior to aggravate the citizens.

I guess you ain't gonna take my word for it. But the truth is only a tiny minority in UK hold this view you're spouting, as shown by the tiny number of votes the party who did got, and anyone spouting such nonsense in Sweden or anywhere else in UK is usually banned from UK or restricted in where they go if allowed in. We ain't letting that far-righted fascist European crap or Islamic jihadist nonsense on our shores, if we know about it. Just look up Tony Robinson (British) and Geert Wilders and Ibrahim Mousawi to get an idea.

Let's wait and see what happens to Boris. He's gunning for Tory party leader so the choice is clear. Corbyn is in the same sort of trouble where the Jews are concerned, though I think it's some concerted effort to destabilise the Labour Party because he's not 'establishment'.

Incidentally, I'm watching a movie, "[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge_of_Spies_%28film%29?wprov=sfla1]Bridge of Spies[/url]". One theme in it was the anti-communist rhetoric of the time, and the fear instilled in Americans that the Soviets were coming to blow them up that turned out to be a means to ramp up the military budget.

If there is a boogie man hiding behind a burqa waiting to blow us up, I want their ass caught and thrown in jail, and if there is sufficient evidence to justify banning the burqa, then I'd want it banned. What I don't want is some irrational fear of what don't exist to be the justification for passing laws in a society I live in. If we let them, or as we say here, if we let them bastards, those bastards being the people in government, they'd eventually use those same laws against us citizens and it would be too late to cry 'foul'!

budaatum:

I guess you ain't gonna take my word for it. But the truth is only a tiny minority in UK hold this view you're spouting, as shown by the tiny number of votes the party who did got, and anyone spouting such nonsense in Sweden or anywhere else in UK is usually banned from UK or restricted in where they go if allowed in. We ain't letting that far-righted fascist European crap or Islamic jihadist nonsense on our shores, if we know about it. Just look up Tony Robinson (British) and Geert Wilders and Ibrahim Mousawi to get an idea.

Let's wait and see what happens to Boris. He's gunning for Tory party leader so the choice is clear. Corbyn is in the same sort of trouble where the Jews are concerned, though I think it's some concerted effort to destabilise the Labour Party because he's not 'establishment'.

Incidentally, I'm watching a movie, "[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge_of_Spies_%28film%29?wprov=sfla1]Bridge of Spies[/url]". One theme in it was the anti-communist rhetoric of the time, and the fear instilled in Americans that the Soviets were coming to blow them up that turned out to be a means to ramp up the military budget.

If there is a boogie man hiding behind a burqa waiting to blow us up, I want their ass caught and thrown in jail, and if there is sufficient evidence to justify banning the burqa, then I'd want it banned. What I don't want is some irrational fear of what don't exist to be the justification for passing laws in a society I live in. If we let them, or as we say here, if we let them bastards, those bastards being the people in government, they'd eventually use those same laws against us citizens and it would be too late to cry 'foul'!

Is it really a "tiny minority"? Take a look at this poll:
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/08/31/majority-public-backs-burka-ban/
Doesn't look like a "tiny minority", does it?
The problem here is you are somehow conflating a ban on the burka with some kind of radical, extremist fringe racism. A view endorsed by the likes of Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and Angela Merkel - a woman whose compassion for Muslim refugees almost destroyed her political career - is not some extremist, racist view. Like I said, the burka debate is a mainstream debate and not only among UKIP or BNP extremists. Regular Joes who cast votes for the Tories and even many Labour voters dislike the burka. Regular Joes who read the Daily Mail, The Sun and Telegraph - the most widely circulating papers in the UK. I bet even some Guardianistas too would vote against the burka.

A popular guy I follow on Youtube, Cenk Uygur from The Young Turks network is a Muslim liberal and he loathes the burka and has stated if his daughter suddenly started wearing one around, it'd bother him. As I've said a couple of times, anyone who cannot assimilate into the norms of a society shouldn't move there. I'm as liberal as you can get on a wide spectrum on issues, but some Afghan refugee parading around Stockholm in the summer with a burka should never be normalized. Europeans go far and beyond to accommodate immigrants to their own peril and that is one of the reasons they have problems with home-grown Muslim terrorists: people who from their youth have segregated themselves from society like the infamous Molenbeek in Belgium and several similar enclaves in France were Muslims isolate themselves and refuse to assimilate. This is dangerous for social cohesion and national security. Liberal societies must always strive to promote secularism and not fanatics covering themselves in what look like bin bags.

A poll! Teresa May called the last elections because the polls said she'd win more seats and have a greater majority if she did. She lost her majority!

David Cameron gave us a referendum on leaving or remaining in Europe because the polls said we'd unanimously vote to remain. We voted to leave and he resigned.

What you fail to recognise is the difficult of actually banning it in UK. It goes against the fundamentals of being British, some of which go back to the Magna Carta for starts, which you can't do without a debate in parliament. And we don't seem to have the problems they seem to have in Europe regarding the segregation and ghettoisation of Muslims. That is the reason it remains a debate mostly held in the Sun and the Daily Mail, and is the preferred topic of people seeking relevance. Trump once said we have "no go areas" because they are taken over by Muslims, and British people laughed. The thought that anyone can come over here, carve out a piece of our land and say "we can't go there" is the stuff we do in comedy. Why do people think we'd so lose our spine?!

Propose a bill in parliament, present your justification for banning burqas and let's see. If there is justification for a ban then I'm sure burqas would be banned. In the meantime, I, and it seems, anyone in a position to pose a bill in parliament to ban burqas, is not actually bothering much with the scaremongering or rhetoric (which is pure sentiment) to do so, and neither am I. Give me the opportunity, and I'd ban God and religion instead, then you'd all stop picking on each other!

Obi1kenobi:


Is it really a "tiny minority"? Take a look at this poll:
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/08/31/majority-public-backs-burka-ban/
Doesn't look like a "tiny minority", does it?
The problem here is you are somehow conflating a ban on the burka with some kind of radical, extremist fringe racism. A view endorsed by the likes of Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and Angela Merkel - a woman whose compassion for Muslim refugees almost destroyed her political career - is not some extremist, racist view. Like I said, the burka debate is a mainstream debate and not only among UKIP or BNP extremists. Regular Joes who cast votes for the Tories and even many Labour voters dislike the burka. Regular Joes who read the Daily Mail, The Sun and Telegraph - the most widely circulating papers in the UK. I bet even some Guardianistas too would vote against the burka.

A popular guy I follow on Youtube, Cenk Uygur from The Young Turks network is a Muslim liberal and he loathes the burka and has stated if his daughter suddenly started wearing one around, it'd bother him. As I've said a couple of times, anyone who cannot assimilate into the norms of a society shouldn't move there. I'm as liberal as you can get on a wide spectrum on issues, but some Afghan refugee parading around Stockholm in the summer with a burka should never be normalized. Europeans go far and beyond to accommodate immigrants to their own peril and that is one of the reasons they have problems with home-grown Muslim terrorists: people who from their youth have segregated themselves from society like the infamous Molenbeek in Belgium and several similar enclaves in France were Muslims isolate themselves and refuse to assimilate. This is dangerous for social cohesion and national security. Liberal societies must always strive to promote secularism and not fanatics covering themselves in what look like bin bags.

budaatum:
A poll! Teresa May called the last elections because the polls said she'd win more seats and have a greater majority if she did. She lost her majority!

David Cameron gave us a referendum on leaving or remaining in Europe because the polls said we'd unanimously vote to remain. We voted to leave and he resigned.

What you fail to recognise is the difficult of actually banning it in UK. It goes against the fundamentals of being British, some of which go back to the Magna Carta for starts, which you can't do without a debate in parliament. And we don't seem to have the problems they seem to have in Europe regarding the segregation and ghettoisation of Muslims. That is the reason it remains a debate mostly held in the Sun and the Daily Mail, and is the preferred topic of people seeking relevance. Trump once said we have "no go areas" because they are taken over by Muslims, and British people laughed. The thought that anyone can come over here, carve out a piece of our land and say "we can't go there" is the stuff we do in comedy. Why do people think we'd so lose our spine?!

Propose a bill in parliament, present your justification for banning burqas and let's see. If there is justification for a ban then I'm sure burqas would be banned. In the meantime, I, and it seems, anyone in a position to pose a bill in parliament to ban burqas, is not actually bothering much with the scaremongering or rhetoric (which is pure sentiment) to do so, and neither am I. Give me the opportunity, and I'd ban God and religion instead, then you'd all stop picking on each other!

Hi bro, you made a claim that most British people, except for fringe elements in UKIP (and very insignificant number in the conservative party), do not have problem with women burka in the public. 'Obi1kenobi' gave you statistics and public opinion, on the subject matter, which you ingeniously ignored, but came up with another claim that data and polls are not reliable. The same 'data' that you have depended on to articulate your points.

There is nothing whatsoever difficult in banning the wearing of burka in public places if there is a will, by the people, to do it. And banning the burka does not in any way go against the British values. I believe that British values do not include stupidity and socio-cultural suicide. You seem not to understand (or deliberately ignorant) of the importance of social cohesion and integration which are anathema to Islamic values and principles.

As I said earlier, I'm not British but Igbo but happens to have a fair knowledge of Islamic history. The truth is, Muslims greatly took advantage of western nation's religious tolerance to push their Islamic agenda which you are subtly defending, or deliberately failed to understand.

budaatum:
A poll! Teresa May called the last elections because the polls said she'd win more seats and have a greater majority if she did. She lost her majority!

David Cameron gave us a referendum on leaving or remaining in Europe because the polls said we'd unanimously vote to remain. We voted to leave and he resigned.

What you fail to recognise is the difficult of actually banning it in UK. It goes against the fundamentals of being British, some of which go back to the Magna Carta for starts, which you can't do without a debate in parliament. And we don't seem to have the problems they seem to have in Europe regarding the segregation and ghettoisation of Muslims. That is the reason it remains a debate mostly held in the Sun and the Daily Mail, and is the preferred topic of people seeking relevance. Trump once said we have "no go areas" because they are taken over by Muslims, and British people laughed. The thought that anyone can come over here, carve out a piece of our land and say "we can't go there" is the stuff we do in comedy. Why do people think we'd so lose our spine?!

Propose a bill in parliament, present your justification for banning burqas and let's see. If there is justification for a ban then I'm sure burqas would be banned. In the meantime, I, and it seems, anyone in a position to pose a bill in parliament to ban burqas, is not actually bothering much with the scaremongering or rhetoric (which is pure sentiment) to do so, and neither am I. Give me the opportunity, and I'd ban God and religion instead, then you'd all stop picking on each other!

You're moving the goalposts quite a bit here. You portrayed those seeking a ban on the burka as fringe UKIP extremists and I have demonstrated that:
(1) Many in mainstream British society reject it using polling data, or widely circulated papers like Daily Mail and The Sun or even the Telegraph. If you know anything about the average Daily Mail or Sun readers, if only through the comment sections on the sites, you'd know they're repulsed by people that wear the burka. Run-of-the-mill Tory voters read the Daily Mail, not just UKIP supporters.
(2) That mainstream politicians - including former Prime Ministers, Blair and Cameron - support the ban. Not to mention many MP's, Christian and Muslim clerics (including a former Archbishop of Canterbury, Lord Carey and Church of England Bishops), and prominent TV personalities.
Plenty who don't join the fray are just silenced by fear of the PC mob. These are not all UKIP fringe voters so it would be disingenuous to portray it so.

There are no British "fundamentals" that are not fundamentals in countries like Denmark or France or Belgium. Don't go sounding like Americans who think they're the only country in the world with rights and free speech.
Even countries like Chad, Niger and Cameroon have banned the burka cos it's seen as a relic of radicalized Islam and has been used by terrorists to cover their operations.
One of the irritating things about the burka is how unnecessary it is. Even in theocratic states like Iran, you're more than fine rocking a fashionable hijab around. It is not mandated by the Quran. Those who do it in Western societies do it almost out of spite. Almost like they are deliberately ridiculing the liberties of their host communities in choosing to be an eyesore. It's like the recent story of a Muslim couple from North Africa refused citizenship in Switzerland for refusing to shake the hands of their interviewers. I was absolutely delighted. I respect their personal rights, but if you cannot be gracious enough to adapt yourself to the cultural norms of your host community, don't go. Stay in your paradise wherever your homeland is and live as you wish. I don't think many of you yet understand the damage you're doing to the social fabric of your society with this multicultural bullshiit. It would dawn on you when the backlash is strong enough for your own version of Trump to rise to PM.

true2god:
Who is the slowpoke here? You, who lacks critical and refused to see 'reasons' why the slave garment (burka) should be banned worldwide, or the OP who only quoted a news report?

can we ban bikini too in public because it provokes men and promote perverts?

You need to abandon the mentality of the 7th century illiterate Arab-man (mohammed ibn abdullah) who scammed his fellow illiterates by claiming to receive divine revelation from an imaginary allahh. Why cover yourself with a slave sack, causing a social and security threat, in this 21st century?

I know this is your problem. This is why bikini should be banned too because if you recall the people who don't wear cloth but only cover their private are called primitive local tribes. So bikini wearers are nothing but primitive people. Whereas you see them as "educated" and "modern".

Every year in August in New York women are topless. Abeg, what's the difference between them and primitives?.

Am just wondering what's the difference between these two


PICTURE 1: Why is the woman on the left not seen as educated and why is the woman on the right not seen as illitrate?


PICTURE 2: Why is the lady on the left not seen as mad woman?

Too much double Standards

.

True2, I'm not so much disputing your points, and I'm sure you agree we see the available evidence in different ways. Nor am I presenting polls, but more concrete electoral results, though I'm willing to accept that you may consider they may be as significant as Obi1kenobi or even less so.

Let me tell you that I think. If there were a public referendum to ban the burqa in UK today it will be won by ban the burqas, there's absolutely no question about it, and I'm talking like 60% or more for a ban. But UK policy is not made by referendums or polls or public opinion for that matter, so that is a rather mute point.

UK policy is made in parliament, and to get into parliament, you have to win a constituency election, and before that you have to get on the ballot for a constituency election meaning you must have been selected by your party, as in win a constituency party nomination, which involves coming to people like me, grassroot card carrying party members who assess your suitability to represent the community on issues that concern us, and I'm not so much telling you, but letting you know that you'd be very hard pressed to find any constituency with enough people to nominate a burqa ban person to represent them if they seriously wish to contest, not win, mind, but ordinary contest for a seat in UK parliament unless your party is the fringe UKIP or the old BNP.

Now, assuming you get past me and the electorate and get into parliament, and since it was not on your parties manifesto (because if it was, please see my 126 to 3 on UKIP) you would have to propose a Private Members Bill, meaning, of all the concerns of all the people who elected you into office, the burqa is the most serious concern they have because if it weren't, and you, their parliamentary representative, decide that's what you want to spend your time on instead of what concerns the members of your constituency, they'd very soon let you know how they feel about it! But assuming it is the greatest concern of the electorate that elected you, you'd have to get a majority of members who attend parliament to vote your way. And you don't need a House majority, just a majority amongst members attending to vote on your bill, meaning if 9 members attend the final debate and vote afterwards, you only need 5 to ban a burqa.

Except that burqas is not our concern! But if it were, that 5 would be closer to half of 650 and at grassroots, we would have fought over it, and I and all the people on my side in half the 650 Constituencies would have to lose, and if burqas are as important to me as I'm showing here, I'd defect to the opposing party and get them to nominate a no burqa ban person, and I'd support that person at election, and if my not concerned about burqa nominee loses, and provided it was a manifesto item; which you would have had to vote for at Conference and won, and then campaigned at election and won too; and which it most likely would have to be - on your party's manifesto that is, if we all lost at grassroots, and you win a majority in election for parliament, and it's your party policy - then, and only then can you present a bill to be debated in parliament and which only passes if you have a majority in both houses of Commons and the Lord's supporting your ban a burqa bill. And after all that, I'll go pay someone to wear a burqa (not that I need to, because even English non-burqa wearing women would do so just to oppose your silly ban), so that you will have to justify yourself in the Crown Court. And if I lose there I'd go to Appeal Court, and if I lose there I'm off to the European Court of Human Rights. And if I lose there, I'd then propose an annual burqa wearing parade so you can arrest the thousands who attend. And trust me, I wouldn't need women to wear burqas that day. We men would wear it if only because nothing gives us more pleasure than sticking two fingers up to oppressive governments. And if you think I can't afford it, think again, or what do you think crowd funding is for, and don't you delude yourself that I wouldn't take Saudi money to fight you!

My point of all this is that we have more important things to concern ourselves with than banning a stupid burqa! Our government gave money to bail out business and let people starve, for instance, and we don't like it. The Churches and other religious organisations now run food banks to help the starving! NHS is starved of cash and one now struggles to see a doctor! People wait months for operations to save their lives and sometimes die while waiting! Inflation is killing us but pay rise is pegged at a paltry insignificant 1% while taxes are going up! Students have to take on loans to go to uni, where their parents went for free! They graduate with huge debt they can't pay because there's no jobs, meanwhile, the quality of education goes down and we produce nothing but services. Or when did you last buy anything in the shop Made in England? We are in Yemen killing the Yemenis on behalf of Saudis because they spend billions in our economy, and you expect some stupid burqa to be the issue we spend our time banning?!

Yeah, government, you'd like that, wouldn't you! Distract us with some stupid burqa that does no harm to anyone while you line your pockets with the national wealth right! You must think we Brits were born like this morning if you think that old switch bait trick would work on us!

I'm not disregarding anything you say True2. I just disagree with your interpretation and how it affects things. UK elects representatives to Parliament to pass laws, and is not ruled by referendum or polls or sentiment. Any election where any contestant from any party has put ban a burqa, or ban a nigga (just so you appreciate the history) on their ballot paper, not only has the contestant lost, the party itself has lost. And besides, how many people actually wear the damn thing anyway? You can't put one on your daughter and send her to school without Social Services getting involved, and no one will employ you, despite the law to not discriminate, not even McDonalds for minimum wage. You're more likely to find it in wealthy Kensington than poor Manchester since those more likely to wear it are rich Saudi Arabians down here on holiday riding around in their Bentley and Rolls Royce, and trust me, we are way too greedy to take their money than to concern ourself with their silly burqas, and they are more concerned in spending their petrodollars to blow themselves up. And, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that a burqa has been complicit in any terrorist act on our shores (least that I've heard of), so please, why should this non-issue be taking up any serious persons time?

No one is taking advantage of us, not Muslims, not burqa wearers, and most definitely not the government, and we wouldn't let them if they tried. And funny enough, we do more multiculturalism (everyone do your thing) since we find it promotes cohesion as we know we can't create other people in the image that we prefer. In fact, you're more likely to find the Jews not mixing than Muslims, since the Muslims are poorer and have to integrate to earn a living than the more wealthy Jews who can sustain their own communities, and whom no one is telling to integrate or not wear whatever they want!

But if there's a will, as you claim, go ahead and attempt to ban it and let's just see how you far you get against my extremely very strong and heavily involved will!

true2god:
Hi bro, you made a claim that most British people, except for fringe elements in UKIP (and very insignificant number in the conservative party), do not have problem with women burka in the public. 'Obi1kenobi' gave you statistics and public opinion, on the subject matter, which you ingeniously ignored, but came up with another claim that data and polls are not reliable. The same 'data' that you have depended on to articulate your points.

There is nothing whatsoever difficult in banning the wearing of burka in public places if there is a will, by the people, to do it. And banning the burka does not in any way go against the British values. I believe that British values do not include stupidity and socio-cultural suicide. You seem not to understand (or deliberately ignorant) of the importance of social cohesion and integration which are anathema to Islamic values and principles.

As I said earlier, I'm not British but Igbo but happens to have a fair knowledge of Islamic history. The truth is, Muslims greatly took advantage of western nation's religious tolerance to push their Islamic agenda which you are subtly defending, or deliberately failed to understand.

Obi1kenobi:

It would dawn on you when the backlash is strong enough for your own version of Trump to rise to PM.

You are funny! The only people close to Trump in British polity is our darling Nigel Farage, of the, go on guess which party?

We can't elect a Trump even if we wanted to. Our electoral system is designed not to allow it. People fear common Corbyn and you think we'd go for a Trump? To us here in UK there's no difference between Trump and a terrorist, or did you not hear what we did when he visited? We sure aren't doing anything similar against Muslims or burqas!

You seriously need to have an understanding of the society you are talking about to quite understand what I'm saying, (my apologies for low blowing). Personally, I think we would rather eradicate the Trumps than the burqa. We sure are intelligent to know which is more dangerous.

Empiree:
can we can bikini too in public because it provokes men and promote perverts?



I know this is your problem. This is why bikini should be banned too because if you recall the people who don't wear cloth but only cover their private are called primitive local tribes. So bikini wearers are nothing but primitive people. Whereas you see them as "educated" and "modern".

Every year in August in New York women are topless. Abeg, what's the difference between them and primitives?.

Am just wondering what's the difference between these two


PICTURE 1: Why is the woman on the left not seen as educated and why is the woman on the right not seen as illitrate?


PICTURE 2: Why is the lady on the left seen as mad woman?

Too much double Standards

Stay aside; I am dealing with people with good sense of reasoning.

true2god:
Stay aside; I am dealing with people with good sense of reasoning.

you know too well you can't handle my strategy

Can you believe the French ban the burqini and make people take them off on the beach!? And where there are topless people knickers only with their tits out! How stupid is that!?

And you're asking me to allow such nonsense where I live because of some unfounded fear that has no basis whatsoever!

budaatum:
True2, I'm not so much disputing your points, and I'm sure you agree we see the available evidence in different ways. Nor am I presenting polls, but more concrete electoral results, though I'm willing to accept that you may consider they may be as significant as Obi1kenobi or even less so.

Let me tell you that I think. If there were a public referendum to ban the burqa in UK today it will be won by ban the burqas, there's absolutely no question about it, and I'm talking like 60% or more for a ban. But UK policy is not made by referendums or polls or public opinion for that matter, so that is a rather mute point.

UK policy is made in parliament, and to get into parliament, you have to win a constituency election, and before that you have to get on the ballot for a constituency election meaning you must have been selected by your party, as in win a constituency party nomination, which involves coming to people like me, grassroot card carrying party members who assess your suitability to represent the community on issues that concern us, and I'm not so much telling you, but letting you know that you'd be very hard pressed to find any constituency with enough people to nominate a burqa ban person to represent them if they seriously wish to contest, not win, mind, but ordinary contest for a seat in UK parliament unless your party is the fringe UKIP or the old BNP.

Now, assuming you get past me and the electorate and get into parliament, and since it was not on your parties manifesto (because if it was, please see my 126 to 3 on UKIP) you would have to propose a Private Members Bill, meaning, of all the concerns of all the people who elected you into office, the burqa is the most serious concern they have because if it weren't, and you, their parliamentary representative, decide that's what you want to spend your time on instead of what concerns the members of your constituency, they'd very soon let you know how they feel about it! But assuming it is the greatest concern of the electorate that elected you, you'd have to get a majority of members who attend parliament to vote your way. And you don't need a House majority, just a majority amongst members attending to vote on your bill, meaning if 9 members attend the final debate and vote afterwards, you only need 5 to ban a burqa.

Except that burqas is not our concern! But if it were, that 5 would be closer to half of 650 and at grassroots, we would have fought over it, and I and all the people on my side in half the 650 Constituencies would have to lose, and if burqas are as important to me as I'm showing here, I'd defect to the opposing party and get them to nominate a no burqa ban person, and I'd support that person at election, and if my not concerned about burqa nominee loses, and provided it was a manifesto item; which you would have had to vote for at Conference and won, and then campaigned at election and won too; and which it most likely would have to be - on your party's manifesto that is, if we all lost at grassroots, and you win a majority in election for parliament, and it's your party policy - then, and only then can you present a bill to be debated in parliament and which only passes if you have a majority in both houses of Commons and the Lord's supporting your ban a burqa bill. And after all that, I'll go pay someone to wear a burqa (not that I need to, because even English non-burqa wearing women would do so just to oppose your silly ban), so that you will have to justify yourself in the Crown Court. And if I lose there I'd go to Appeal Court, and if I lose there I'm off to the European Court of Human Rights. And if I lose there, I'd then propose an annual burqa wearing parade so you can arrest the thousands who attend. And trust me, I wouldn't need women to wear burqas that day. We men would wear it if only because nothing gives us more pleasure than sticking two fingers up to oppressive governments. And if you think I can't afford it, think again, or what do you think crowd funding is for, and don't you delude yourself that I wouldn't take Saudi money to fight you!

My point of all this is that we have more important things to concern ourselves with than banning a stupid burqa! Our government gave money to bail out business and let people starve, for instance, and we don't like it. The Churches and other religious organisations now run food banks to help the starving! NHS is starved of cash and one now struggles to see a doctor! People wait months for operations to save their lives and sometimes die while waiting! Inflation is killing us but pay rise is pegged at a paltry insignificant 1% while taxes are going up! Students have to take on loans to go to uni, where their parents went for free! They graduate with huge debt they can't pay because there's no jobs, meanwhile, the quality of education goes down and we produce nothing but services. Or when did you last buy anything in the shop Made in England? We are in Yemen killing the Yemenis on behalf of Saudis because they spend billions in our economy, and you expect some stupid burqa to be the issue we spend our time banning?!

Yeah, government, you'd like that, wouldn't you! Distract us with some stupid burqa that does no harm to anyone while you line your pockets with the national wealth right! You must think we Brits were born like this morning if you think that old switch bait trick would work on us!

I'm not disregarding anything you say True2. I just disagree with your interpretation and how it affects things. UK elects representatives to Parliament to pass laws, and is not ruled by referendum or polls or sentiment. Any election where any contestant from any party has put ban a burqa, or ban a nigga (just so you appreciate the history) on their ballot paper, not only has the contestant lost, the party itself has lost. And besides, how many people actually wear the damn thing anyway? You can't put one on your daughter and send her to school without Social Services getting involved, and no one will employ you, despite the law to not discriminate, not even McDonalds for minimum wage. You're more likely to find it in wealthy Kensington than poor Manchester since those more likely to wear it are rich Saudi Arabians down here on holiday riding around in their Bentley and Rolls Royce, and trust me, we are way too greedy to take their money than to concern ourself with their silly burqas, and they are more concerned in spending their petrodollars to blow themselves up. And, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that a burqa has been complicit in any terrorist act on our shores (least that I've heard of), so please, why should this non-issue be taking up any serious persons time?

No one is taking advantage of us, not Muslims, not burqa wearers, and most definitely not the government, and we wouldn't let them if they tried. And funny enough, we do more multiculturalism (everyone do your thing) since we find it promotes cohesion as we know we can't create other people in the image that we prefer. In fact, you're more likely to find the Jews not mixing than Muslims, since the Muslims are poorer and have to integrate to earn a living than the more wealthy Jews who can sustain their own communities, and whom no one is telling to integrate or not wear whatever they want!

But if there's a will, as you claim, go ahead and attempt to ban it and let's just see how you far you get against my extremely very strong and heavily involved will!

I may not fully understand the dynamics of British politics but one thing is clear, the people in power are elected (or selected) to represent the of the citizens. What is the point for a representative govt when public opinion are not valued and/or respected?

If more than 60% of British citizens are against wearing burka in public space, but their opinion (the normal citizens) run contrary to govt's established policies, then what is the significance of public opinion on a civil society? If a referendum can be held to for the autonomy of Scotland, and for Britain's right to leave the EU, what gives you the impression that, someday, a similar decision cannot be taken concerning the wearing of burka? Is referendum on burka was complex that the Scottish membership of the UK? It will even be a 'slap' on any country to waste public time/fund on burka issue which a common bye-law can easily take care of. You have to hnders that the burka is not an ordinary fashion style but a 'regalia' which has cultural, political and religious representation. In a pluralistic society like Britain, if a certain religious group wants to be identified with a unique religious appearance, whereby even the face of the 'wearer' is hidden behind a veil, is that not a way of creating division in the society? In Islam, we have what they call 'the pact of umar'. The pact of umar is a classical example of how Muslims, under the khilafa Umar, segregated the demographics based on religion; the ummah (the Muslims) and the dhimmi (the people of the book). For the purpose of easy identification, all the dhimmi are to put on belt on their waist. Why are Muslims, in the western world, trying to recreate the 'pact of Umar' on the host?

true2god:
I may not fully understand the dynamics of British politics but one thing is clear, the people in power are elected (or selected) to represent the of the citizens. What is the point for a representative govt when public opinion are not valued and/or respected?

It's a rather odd situation, I tell you. While the Members of Parliament are there to represent the people, it does not mean they get to wholesale do what the majority of people want, and this goes back further than what happened in Hitler's Germany, but is often brought up to illustrate it so I'd use it too.

The Germans voted for a leader who promoted the rhetoric that Jews were bad. When he got into power he imposed policies against the Jews that culminated in their gasing, and the world became more aware of the tyranny of the majority inherent in democracy, and are minded to guide against it.

You may be the majority today and do as you wish, but what happens if you are not the majority tomorrow? Would the new majority not now impose oppressive laws on you? UK has history of this being the case with its constant switches between Catholic and Protestant Kings and Queens each oppressing those who didn't worship as they preferred. So, to avoid this, the polity is designed so the majority do not rule by opinion, or poll or referendum, but by rationale evidence supported by reason. And if there's no evidence to support your position, we shall not accept whimsical sentimental rhetoric in place of it!

Now read what a fact check of the polls say to see the evidence for banning the burqa in UK please! Next to zero burqa related crime! In fact, more crime is committed by youths wearing hoodies and no one is wholesale saying ban hoodies except in communities where evidence exists for their ban.

I can't help thinking there's more behind this than a burqa. But I need not even think since you've shown it's a fear of burqas taking over and everyone being forced to wear one, which I assure you cannot ever ever happen in UK even if everyone says we should, since we are way too stubborn and rebellious for that nonsense.

For your information True2, and the future, and so you know. if some Islamic government becomes a majority in Nigeria and wants to burqanise everyone, or proclaim Nigeria is an Islamic country I will fight them as vehemently as I'm fighting this burqa ban now. And I'd equally fight a majority Christian or atheist government if they attempt to impose their version of a burqa too! (Though I confess that one of my hands might be behind my back while I fight where some atheistic burqas might be concerned!)