Revelation 12:1 A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman* clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

[Rev. 12:1, 5].
She brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne


Who is this mysterious Woman clothed in the sun?

Is the Woman Mary?
Is the Woman Israel?
Is the Woman the Church?

Is She the Virgin Mary?
Note that the Woman gives birth to a male child who is to rule the nations with a rod of iron. That’s a reference to the Messianic prophecy in Psalm 2, where we read:

Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron [Ps. 2:8-9].

Jesus fulfilled this Messianic prophecy.

The fact that the male child is caught up to the throne of God is a reference to Jesus’ Ascension into heaven, so we have another confirmation that the male child is Jesus.

And since the Woman who gives birth to him is his Mother, we could infer that the Woman here is Jesus’ mother, the Virgin Mary.




Is She Israel . . . or the Church?
The symbolism connected with the Woman is drawn from the book of Genesis, where the patriarch Joseph has a dream involving the sun, the moon, and the stars.

Then he dreamed another dream, and told it to his brothers, and said, "Behold, I have dreamed another dream; and behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were bowing down to me."

But when he told it to his father and to his brothers, his father rebuked him, and said to him, "What is this dream that you have dreamed? Shall I and your mother and your brothers indeed come to bow ourselves to the ground before you?” [Gen. 37:9-10].

The symbolism of the sun, moon, and twelve stars comes from Genesis, where it refers to the family of Jacob and the twelve patriarchs, who headed the twelve tribes of Israel.

That has led some to say that the Woman in Revelation 12 is Israel.

You could go further and note that the Church is the spiritual Israel. So some have suggested that the Woman as the Church.



Figuring out Which View is True
Which view is true?

Is the Woman Mary?
Is the Woman Israel?
Is the Woman the Church?

Either/Or Vs. Both/And
We don’t have to make that choice, because if you study the way symbolism is used in the book of Revelation, it often uses a single symbol points to more than one thing.

For example, Revelation 17 tells us what the seven heads of the beast represents:

This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the [LovePeddler of Babylon] is seated; they are also seven kings (Rev. 17:9-10).

If the seven heads can be seven mountains and seven kings then the Woman clothed with the sun might be the Virgin Mary and Israel and the Church.



Pope Benedict's View
That’s what Pope Benedict suggests. In his book Jesus of Nazareth, volume 2, he writes:

When the Book of Revelation speaks of the great sign of a Woman appearing in heaven, she is understood to represent all Israel, indeed, the whole Church. . . .

On the basis of the “corporate personality” model—in keeping with biblical thought—the early Church had no difficulty recognizing in the Woman, on the one hand, Mary herself and, on the other hand, transcending time, the Church, bride and mother, in which the mystery of Mary spreads out into history [Benedict XVI, Jesus of Nazareth 2:222].

On another occasion, Pope Benedict said:

This Woman represents Mary, the Mother of the Redeemer, but at the same time she also represents the whole Church, the People of God of all times, the Church which in all ages, with great suffering, brings forth Christ ever anew [General Audience, Aug. 23, 2006].

As Pope Benedict shows us, we don’t have to make a forced choice between the possible meanings of what the Woman represents.

In keeping with the richness of the way Revelation uses symbolism, to use Pope Benedict’s phrases, she represents ""Mary and “all Israel” and “the whole Church” in different ways.

Adapted from http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/revelation-12-who-is-the-woman-clothed-with-the-sun

This is deep

FrancisDeSales:


Now, is there any cue that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the woman of Revelation 12 without prejudice to any additional symbolism of the chapter?
V1. First the woman was said to be decked with the glory of the celestial bodies. If ever any woman would be so arrayed, it would be she who is "blessed among women" (Lk 1:42) and she is none other than the Blessed Mary.
V2. The woman was with Child, and was in pain to be delivered. To understand this pain, it is important to remind ourselves that TWO brought about the Fall in the garden, Adam and Eve, before a TREE (Gen 3). To win the salvation of Man, Christ became the New Adam (1 Cor 15:22; Rom 5), hanging on a TREE (the cross, Gal 3:13). But where is the New Eve? Christ himself while hanging on the cross pointed her to us: "WOMAN behold your son" (Jn 19:26). The word "woman" is unusual from a loving Son to the most lovable mother but it ties with the promise of the New Eve: "I will put enmity between you and the WOMAN" (Gen 3:15). So that mother at the feet of the cross is the New Eve, who with the New Adam repaired the Fall before the cross, the New TREE of life. Did the old Eve play any role in the Fall of Man? Yes, she did, an indispensable role. To pay the devil in his own coin, tree for tree, man for man and woman for woman, the Blessed Virgin Mary had to play an indispensable role in the salvation of Man. Just as Christ the New Adam said "I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!" (Lk 12:50), so the Blessed Virgin was in travail to deliver in her role as the New Eve for the salvation of Man.
V3,4. The Dragon can be associated with Herod (Mt 2:16) who try to destory the Christ Child and all those who plotted to destroy the infant Church.
V5. The woman had a male Child who is clearly Christ our Lord, the King of kings and Lord of lords (1 Tim 6:15). But we know that Mary is the Mother of Jesus, our Lord. Therefore, as have been pointed out earlier, if the Child is Christ, the woman and his mother is Mary.
V6. The woman, the New Eve, fled into the wilderness to escape the devil, as Christ, the New Adam, did (Mk 1.35) and advised his disciples to do (Mk 6:31).
V13. The devil persecute the woman. So many Christians would complain of Eve, but few call Mary blessed even when that is their responsibility (Lk 1:48) and when God commanded it (Pro 31:31). Instead, they call her "envelope" and "ordinary woman". We can tell who is behind the misnomer.
V14. The woman was given wings of a great eagle fly into the desert. We already know what she does in the desert of prayer. No wonder St Luke often says, "But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart." (Lk 2:19) Every event was for her a point of meditation day and night (Ps 1:2)
V15,16. The devil attempted to overwhelm the Blessed Mary with a flood of sorrows but God provided her natural support in the person of the beloved disciple (Jn 19:27) and all other disciple that is beloved.
V17. The devil makes war with the rest of the seed of this woman. Remember, when Christ handed St John to his mother in Jn19:16, St John was not mentioned, but only referred to as "the beloved disciple". But we know that there are many disciples that are beloved, all those who kept the faith of Christ (Rev 12:17).
V18. We know the devil is standing on sand. He will fail.

From above, one can see that Rev 12 indeed do refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary without excluding the other interpretation that refer to the Church.

Nice One

Nice write up...
But if we are to go with the view that the woman is mary,don't it defile the believe of the immaculate conception of mary believed dearly by the Roman catholics ?

Let's go to to verse 2 of that revelation 12;

"And she being with child cried,travailing in birth ,& pained to be delivered "

So,as you can see from that verse,the woman was in pain to be delivered ,but thier is a believe among the catholics that Mary was born without sins ( the immaculate conception of Mary) ,therefore she would not experience or did not experience the pain of child birth ..

I will bring up more "pictures" as we proceeds on these..


What do you think sir ?

If we are to go with the view of the woman being the Israel;then that verse will make more meaning to that verse 2.
Bible has it that the Israelites has always being tormented,subjected to all kind of pains & suffering,hoping for the delivery of the messiah they have heard of prophesied by the prophets..

Jesus was delivered as an isrealite,which you & I were told....or know.

What do YOU think on these as well ?

Again, if we are to go with the church of God as the woman,don't the church of God,which are usually referred to as Christians, start after the birth of Christ ?
The woman cannot be the "church of God" because the true church of God actually started during/after the missionary works of Jesus Christ, which are the true believers we see today .

What do YOU think on these too ?

AND NO,IF CAN'T BE THREE,EVEN IF THIER SEEM TO BE A SIMILARITIES....THIER IS A SUBTLE DIFFERENCES THAT MAKES ONE FITS THE REVELATION 12 ,100%...

Good morning ......

The woman is Mother Russia and her son is none other than Vladimirovich Putin.

I hear in my spirit, the woman is Zion, Israel.
Isaiah 66:8 ...for as soon as Zion TRAVAILED she brought forth her child"

Rev 12:4...depicts the dragon was ready to devour the child as soon as he was born. Reminds me of Herod being used by the devil to kill every male child less than 3yrs old at the time of the birth of the Messiah.

She bore the son Jesus who will rule the nations with a rod, an Iron sceptre ... Rev 12:5...

we can see further that in rev 12:13-15 The woman is being persecuted by the serpentine dragon... She is then given wings to soar to her place of dryness and then the serpent tries to tempt her with food so she would be swayed...

in verse 19 it says the dragon went to make war with the remnant of HER SEED. Which keeps the COMMANDMENTS of God..

Remember when God said in Genesis 3:15...Speaking to The serpentine dragon " I will put enmity between you (the serpent) and The woman and between you and HER SEED...HE WILL CRUSH YOUR HEAD(the serpent) AND YOU WILL BRUISE HIS HEEL... SAITH THE LORD.

that's the fulfilment.. The woman is God's people, Israel.. And today God's people is the church.

What marvellous symbolism... Hmm, I would go with the woman being Inanna /ishtar/aphrodite /shiva/Venus.. I think she is the morning star or the so called "queen of heaven".. She is also the prostytute riding a bull which happens to be her grandfather (Enlil)..

Babylonian symbols..
This only shows that the book was written by the Catholic Church..

Glycolysis:
Nice write up...
But if we are to go with the view that the woman is mary,don't it defile the believe of the immaculate conception of mary believed dearly by the Roman catholics ?

Let's go to to verse 2 of that revelation 12;

"And she being with child cried,travailing in birth ,& pained to be delivered "

So,as you can see from that verse,the woman was in pain to be delivered ,but thier is a believe among the catholics that Mary was born without sins ( the immaculate conception of Mary) ,therefore she would not experience or did not experience the pain of child birth ..

I will bring up more "pictures" as we proceeds on these..


What do you think sir ?

If we are to go with the view of the woman being the Israel;then that verse will make more meaning to that verse 2.
Bible has it that the Israelites has always being tormented,subjected to all kind of pains & suffering,hoping for the delivery of the messiah they have heard of prophesied by the prophets..

Jesus was delivered as an isrealite,which you & I were told....or know.

What do YOU think on these as well ?

Again, if we are to go with the church of God as the woman,don't the church of God,which are usually referred to as Christians, start after the birth of Christ ?
The woman cannot be the "church of God" because the true church of God actually started during/after the missionary works of Jesus Christ, which are the true believers we see today .

What do YOU think on these too ?

AND NO,IF CAN'T BE THREE,EVEN IF THIER SEEM TO BE A SIMILARITIES....THIER IS A SUBTLE DIFFERENCES THAT MAKES ONE FITS THE REVELATION 12 ,100%...

Good morning ......

When Saul (before he became Paul) was persecuting the Church, Jesus asked him Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? (Acts 9:4)
So starting with you last question you can't categorically say Saul was not persecuting Christ but his Church, when the Jesus says He is the person being persecuted. I am saying this so that you see that the time difference you place in your third question can be understood in this light. So should not be a problem.

Now to your first question
Luke 2: 35 And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts, thoughts may be revealed.
John 19:35 Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.

Now Simeon's prophecy describe Mary's pain as a sword piecing her soul. This pain also be likened to pain of pregnant woman (Rev 12:2). See how St Paul said of described hispains in Gal 4:19).
Gal 4:19 my little children, for whom I am again in the anguish of childbirth until Christ is formed in you!

So the pains spoken about in Rev12:2 does not contradict the Immaculate Conception, but further shows how this Woman is Mary because she went through pains (Luke 2:35) for the Church to be born.

With regards to you second question, as earlier posited I (we), have no problem in saying that the Woman also represents Isreal and by extension the Church who is the new Isreal.

Of course let me remind you that the book of Revelations use symbols.

MosesAlex:


When Saul (before he became Paul) was persecuting the Church, Jesus asked him Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? (Acts 9:4)
So starting with you last question you can't categorically say Saul was not persecuting Christ but his Church, when the Jesus says He is the person being persecuted. I am saying this so that you see that the time difference you place in your third question can be understood in this light. So should not be a problem.

Now to your first question
Luke 2: 35 And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts, thoughts may be revealed.
John 19:35 Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.

Now Simeon's prophecy describe Mary's pain as a sword piecing her soul. This pain also be likened to pain of pregnant woman (Rev 12:2). See how St Paul said of described hispains in Gal 4:19).
Gal 4:19 my little children, for whom I am again in the anguish of childbirth until Christ is formed in you!

So the pains spoken about in Rev12:2 does not contradict the Immaculate Conception, but further shows how this Woman is Mary because she went through pains (Luke 2:35) for the Church to be born.

With regards to you second question, as earlier posited I (we), have no problem in saying that the Woman also represents Isreal and by extension the Church who is the new Isreal.

Of course let me remind you that the book of Revelations use symbols.

Now,that's were the problem is !
You & I will agree first & foremost,that NO record of the immaculate conception of Mary was recorded in the Bible & taught my any of the apostles of Jesus Christ .
It's inconceivable that such a great miracle will take place,& was not recorded in the Bible or taught by Jesus disciples..

The only record we have about Mary is that she was a humble maiden favoured by God,& she happens to be a virgin & of a Jewish descends..
Now,Mary has no part whatsoever to play in our salvation.
She was used as a medium through which our Redeemer is to come,just as many people of Old that was used by God to fulfil a purpose...
During Jesus trial,crucifixion & blood he shed on the cross of calvary, ascension & His coming back to rapture the saints that are both dead & living,Mary has no part whatsoever to play in these processes...
And that is where salvation & justification of the church is .

So,I don't understand what you meant by "the birthing of the church "...
If Mary also gave birth to the church ,then she will be the one justifying & were our salvation is...
Then she is the author & finisher of our faith !
Then she is our redeemer,our saviour & all that Jesus is to a believer of the word of God !
Questionable !!

Like any mother out there,they will be traumatized to see there son go through such heart breaking encounter, & not that she was giving birth to the church as you had claimed in Revelation 12 v 2.

That was what Simon was talking about...

Mary had a mother & father,so for the immaculate conception to even start making sense,her father & mother too will be delivered without original sins ...
Then the whole generation of Mary before she was born from both the father & mother side will be born without the adamic nature !
Only then will I believe the immaculate conception that was not found in the bible reasonable...

Hence I told you,the woman in that revelation 12 cannot be Mary.....

Can we move further down on that Revelation 12 ?
I have some more fascinating observation I would point out in that chapter ,maybe you may get to see more glaring proves that that woman cannot just be Mary,the mother of Jesus Christ...
Can we ?

Glycolysis:

Now,that's were the problem is !
You & I will agree first & foremost,that NO record of the immaculate conception of Mary was recorded in the Bible & taught my any of the apostles of Jesus Christ .
It's inconceivable that such a great miracle will take place,& was not recorded in the Bible or taught by Jesus disciples..

The only record we have about Mary is that she was a humble maiden favoured by God,& she happens to be a virgin & of a Jewish descends..
Now,Mary has no part whatsoever to play in our salvation.
She was used as a medium through which our Redeemer is to come,just as many people of Old that was used by God to fulfil a purpose...
During Jesus trial,crucifixion & blood he shed on the cross of calvary, ascension & His coming back to rapture the saints that are both dead & living,Mary has no part whatsoever to play in these processes...
And that is where salvation & justification of the church is .

So,I don't understand what you meant by "the birthing of the church "...
If Mary also gave birth to the church ,then she will be the one justifying & were our salvation is...
Then she is the author & finisher of our faith !
Then she is our redeemer,our saviour & all that Jesus is to a believer of the word of God !
Questionable !!

Like any mother out there,they will be traumatized to see there son go through such heart breaking encounter, & not that she was giving birth to the church as you had claimed in Revelation 12 v 2.

That was what Simon was talking about...

Mary had a mother & father,so for the immaculate conception to even start making sense,her father & mother too will be delivered without original sins ...
Then the whole generation of Mary before she was born from both the father & mother side will be born without the adamic nature !
Only then will I believe the immaculate conception that was not found in the bible reasonable...

Hence I told you,the woman in that revelation 12 cannot be Mary.....

Can we move further down on that Revelation 12 ?
I have some more fascinating observation I would point out in that chapter ,maybe you may get to see more glaring proves that that woman cannot just be Mary,the mother of Jesus Christ...
Can we ?

My brother Mr Glycolysis,
I would actually like us to keep to one topic. And discuss new topics in new threads. As you know this one was created for the Woman of clothed the with Sun with the Moon under her feet, and around her head a crown of twelve stars.
Immaculate Conception, or the Communion of Saints we could discuss that, but lets keep to the topic else this thread would be untidy with different topics in one. I like the civil way you started. In my next post I would dissect you post point by point.

Glycolysis:

Now,that's were the problem is !
You & I will agree first & foremost,that NO record of the immaculate conception of Mary was recorded in the Bible & taught my any of the apostles of Jesus Christ .
It's inconceivable that such a great miracle will take place,& was not recorded in the Bible or taught by Jesus disciples..

This paragraph is on the Immaculate Conception, not the topic of the thread. But by God's grace I would open a thread on the Immaculate Conception then we would discuss there.

Glycolysis:


The only record we have about Mary is that she was a humble maiden favoured by God,& she happens to be a virgin & of a Jewish descends..
Now,Mary has no part whatsoever to play in our salvation.
She was used as a medium through which our Redeemer is to come,just as many people of Old that was used by God to fulfil a purpose...
During Jesus trial,crucifixion & blood he shed on the cross of calvary, ascension & His coming back to rapture the saints that are both dead & living,Mary has no part whatsoever to play in these processes...
And that is where salvation & justification of the church is .

On Mary's Role in our Salvation, by God's grace I would talk about this in a new thread. And it is not Mary alone. The Communion of Saints have their own God given role.

Glycolysis:


So,I don't understand what you meant by "the birthing of the church "...
If Mary also gave birth to the church ,then she will be the one justifying & were our salvation is...
Then she is the author & finisher of our faith !
Then she is our redeemer,our saviour & all that Jesus is to a believer of the word of God !
Questionable !!

Now you have come. Let us forget Mary for a moment. How would you reconcile your comment above with what St Paul said in Gal 4:19. With respect to himself giving birth.

Gal 4:19 my little children, for whom I am again in the anguish of childbirth until Christ is formed in you!

1 Corinthians 4:15
Even if you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

So St Paul gave birth the Church in these places. Is Paul their author and finisher of their faith? I never claimed such for St Paul or for the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Glycolysis:


Like any mother out there,they will be traumatized to see there son go through such heart breaking encounter, & not that she was giving birth to the church as you had claimed in Revelation 12 v 2.

That was what Simon was talking about...

Glycolysis:

Mary had a mother & father,so for the immaculate conception to even start making sense,her father & mother too will be delivered without original sins ...
Then the whole generation of Mary before she was born from both the father & mother side will be born without the adamic nature !
Only then will I believe the immaculate conception that was not found in the bible reasonable...

Still on the Immaculate Conception. You really like the Immaculate Conception, we would come to it in a dedicated thread by God's grace.

Glycolysis:

Hence I told you,the woman in that revelation 12 cannot be Mary.....

You brought up the Immaculate Conception into this discussion. And you are busy using it to decide who the Woman is. I hope you can see you are very off the topic.

Glycolysis:

Can we move further down on that Revelation 12 ?
I have some more fascinating observation I would point out in that chapter ,maybe you may get to see more glaring proves that that woman cannot just be Mary,the mother of Jesus Christ...
Can we ?

That is what this thread is about

MosesAlex:


This paragraph is on the Immaculate Conception, not the topic of the thread. But by God's grace I would open a thread on the Immaculate Conception then we would discuss there.


On Mary's Role in our Salvation, by God's grace I would talk about this in a new thread. And it is not Mary alone. The Communion of Saints have their own God given role.


Now you have come. Let us forget Mary for a moment. How would you reconcile your comment above with what St Paul said in Gal 4:19. With respect to himself giving birth.

Gal 4:19 my little children, for whom I am again in the anguish of childbirth until Christ is formed in you!

1 Corinthians 4:15
Even if you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

So St Paul gave birth the Church in these places. Is Paul their author and finisher of their faith? I never claimed such for St Paul or for the Blessed Virgin Mary.




Still on the Immaculate Conception. You really like the Immaculate Conception, we would come to it in a dedicated thread by God's grace.


You brought up the Immaculate Conception into this discussion. And you are busy using it to decide who the Woman is. I hope you can see you are very off the topic.



That is what this thread is about

I have an issue with the way you interpret the Bible...
The Galatian 4:19 you talked about has nothing to do with the establishment of church(es) by Paul the apostle...
And also,you just pick up a bible verse & ascribe a meaning to it,that's not how to understand a message in the bible..
Now,let's go back to that Galatians 4 BUT let's start from verse 13..

"Ye know how through the infirmity of the flesh I PREACHED THE GOSPEL UNTO YOU AT THE FIRST

14- And my temptation which was in my fresh ye despised not,nor rejected, but RECEIVED ME AS AN ANGEL OF GOD,EVEN AS CHRIST JESUS

take strong note of the words I bolded..
Go down to verse 16
" AM I THEREFORE BECOME YOU ENEMY,BECAUSE I TELL YOU THE TRUTH ?
Now go down to verse 19 you talked about that it has to do with establishing of churches by Paul the apostle...

19- my little children ,of whom I travail in BIRTH AGAIN, UNTIL CHRIST BE FORMED IN YOU "

When you read further down,you will get to understand what verse 19 actually meant,more.

Now,as in verse 13,Paul was reminding the church of Galatia, how he onced suffered to preach the gospel of Christ to them,how they once accepted the truth & were willing to upheld the truth of God's word,with time ,they have forsaken the gospel they once believed...

They are introducing traditions & laws into the church ,rather than preaching the gospel of Christ...
Verse 19,Paul was writing that the initial anguish & suffering he felt when he was preaching the gospel of Christ to then ,he is still have to undergo such suffering to teach then the gospel the once believed,until Christ is formed in them....

As we all know,Paul was the greatest of the apostles of Jesus Christ, & suffered more than any of then..
That's exactly what is happening here in Galatians 4,where he have to go back & preach the gospel of Christ to them after they have departed from the truth....

HE LIKENED HIS SUFFERING TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THEM AGAIN AS THAT OF CHILDBIRTH, WHICH IS ONE OF THE GREATEST PAINS ANY HUMAN CAN FEEL


IT WAS NEVER ABOUT ESTABLISHING ANY CHURCH....

The 1 Corinthians you quoted,as usual,you just quoted a verse from the Bible without a thorough examination of other verses...
And yes,you misinterpreted it again..

IT WAS NEVER ABOUT PAUL BEING THE FATHER OF ANY CHURCH AS YOU HAD CLAIMED.......

And also,Revelation 12 vs 2 & Galatians 4:19 has no relationship whatsoever as you had claimed...
In that,you likened them both to as meaning establishing of the church......

Certainly, we wil proceed ,but until I understand Mary relationship to Revelation 12 vs 2...


And I also have problem with you here...
In the revelation 12 vs 2 ,you claim the anguish felt their was for the delivery of the church, but down to verse 4 ,we all know the child that was delivered was Jesus Christ...
because the pain & anguish there,CANNOT BE THAT OF THE PAIN FOR THE DELIVERY OF THE CHURCH BY MARY ,& AT THE END OF THE DAY,VERSE 4,JESUS WAS DELIVERED !
It should be the church that should be delivered & not Jesus christ...

Pls,explain on these.....

( And yes,Revelation 12 has being used by the catholics to believe in the assumption of Mary,the immaculate conception,the mother of the church & the preparation of a special place in heaven for Mary,the mother of Jesus Christ .
Unless,you want to pretend about that...
And,I don't go off point when I talk about those concepts,because it's still used by them to buttress there point,that's not without misinterpreting the scripture )



Good morning..

.

revelation 12 has nothing to do with Mary but israel.
Israel has been persecuted right from day one.


Micah 4:10
Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.


the prophecy is about Israel and her deliverance.

she brought forth her messiah when Jesus was born.

Glycolysis:

I have an issue with the way you interpret the Bible...
The Galatian 4:19 you talked about has nothing to do with the establishment of church(es) by Paul the apostle...
And also,you just pick up a bible verse & ascribe a meaning to it,that's not how to understand a message in the bible..
Now,let's go back to that Galatians 4 BUT let's start from verse 13..

"Ye know how through the infirmity of the flesh I PREACHED THE GOSPEL UNTO YOU AT THE FIRST

14- And my temptation which was in my fresh ye despised not,nor rejected, but RECEIVED ME AS AN ANGEL OF GOD,EVEN AS CHRIST JESUS

take strong note of the words I bolded..
Go down to verse 16
" AM I THEREFORE BECOME YOU ENEMY,BECAUSE I TELL YOU THE TRUTH ?
Now go down to verse 19 you talked about that it has to do with establishing of churches by Paul the apostle...

19- my little children ,of whom I travail in BIRTH AGAIN, UNTIL CHRIST BE FORMED IN YOU "

When you read further down,you will get to understand what verse 19 actually meant,more.

Now,as in verse 13,Paul was reminding the church of Galatia, how he onced suffered to preach the gospel of Christ to them,how they once accepted the truth & were willing to upheld the truth of God's word,with time ,they have forsaken the gospel they once believed...

They are introducing traditions & laws into the church ,rather than preaching the gospel of Christ...
Verse 19,Paul was writing that the initial anguish & suffering he felt when he was preaching the gospel of Christ to then ,he is still have to undergo such suffering to teach then the gospel the once believed,until Christ is formed in them....

As we all know,Paul was the greatest of the apostles of Jesus Christ, & suffered more than any of then..
That's exactly what is happening here in Galatians 4,where he have to go back & preach the gospel of Christ to them after they have departed from the truth....

HE LIKENED HIS SUFFERING TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THEM AGAIN AS THAT OF CHILDBIRTH, WHICH IS ONE OF THE GREATEST PAINS ANY HUMAN CAN FEEL


IT WAS NEVER ABOUT ESTABLISHING ANY CHURCH....

The 1 Corinthians you quoted,as usual,you just quoted a verse from the Bible without a thorough examination of other verses...
And yes,you misinterpreted it again..

IT WAS NEVER ABOUT PAUL BEING THE FATHER OF ANY CHURCH AS YOU HAD CLAIMED.......

And also,Revelation 12 vs 2 & Galatians 4:19 has no relationship whatsoever as you had claimed...
In that,you likened them both to as meaning establishing of the church......

Certainly, we wil proceed ,but until I understand Mary relationship to Revelation 12 vs 2...


And I also have problem with you here...
In the revelation 12 vs 2 ,you claim the anguish felt their was for the delivery of the church, but down to verse 4 ,we all know the child that was delivered was Jesus Christ...
because the pain & anguish there,CANNOT BE THAT OF THE PAIN FOR THE DELIVERY OF THE CHURCH BY MARY ,& AT THE END OF THE DAY,VERSE 4,JESUS WAS DELIVERED !
It should be the church that should be delivered & not Jesus christ...

Pls,explain on these.....

( And yes,Revelation 12 has being used by the catholics to believe in the assumption of Mary,the immaculate conception,the mother of the church & the preparation of a special place in heaven for Mary,the mother of Jesus Christ .
Unless,you want to pretend about that...
And,I don't go off point when I talk about those concepts,because it's still used by them to buttress there point,that's not without misinterpreting the scripture )



Good morning..

Okay let me leave out the birth of the Church. And even as it concerns more Rev 12:2 spoke about the birth of a Child whom we agree is Jesus. Fine and good it helps the topic greatly.

Now in Gal 4:19, Your summary shows you agreed with what I am referring to , that is St Paul likened his pain to labour pains of Child birth. Not just any Child but giving birth again to Jesus in those the letter to the Galatians was referred to .

The Holy Spirit speaking through Simeon called the pain of Mary as that of a sword piercing her soul.(Luke 2:35)

The pain referred in Rev 12:2, Gal 4:19 and Luke 2:35 are all synonymous with great pains. Which are about the greatest anyone can bear.

So for Christ to be formed in the Galatians , involved St Paul going through pains he likened to Child birth.
Christ in dying for us, which provides us with opportunity for Christ to be born in us, involved Mary going through pains which the Holy Ghost called a "a sword piercing her soul", which Rev 12:2 likens to to the pain of Child birth.

I hope that rests Rev 12:2. We can move to you next points.

solite3:
revelation 12 has nothing to do with Mary but israel.
Israel has been persecuted right from day one.


Micah 4:10
Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.


the prophecy is about Israel and her deliverance.

she brought forth her messiah when Jesus was born.

Are you saying Mary did not suffer great pain or what?

Even before Jesus was born she faced the danger of being seen as one who got pregnant by infidelity, which you know the consequence was death by stoning. (Leviticus 20:10
She faced been danger of been divorced by Joseph. (Matthew 1:19)
She could not find a decent place to give birth to her Son (Luke 2:7)
She and Joseph to flee from Herod who killed over 2000 babies (Matthew 2:16-18)
40days after the birth of Jesus, Simeon prophesied that a sword would pierce her soul (Luke 2:35)
She and Joseph sought for Jesus for 3days until they found him in the temple. (when he was at age of 12) (Luke 2:48)
She heard people contradict her Son. The most beautiful and Holy of Sons. (John 10:20 )
She watched her innocent Son carry the cross to Golgotha and watch him died for us.(John 19:25 )
She watched the centurion pierce His side.
She was with the early Church that faced persecution. And saw many of Her Son's followers martyred (Acts 1:14)

My dear, Mary suffered alot.

When Eve decided to eat the apple she was not just harming herself, (Gen 3:6) but lead to the harming of even generations after her, generations existing now, and even generations yet to come.
When Mary said has yes to God's plan (Luke 1:38), she not just helping herself, but generations till the end of the world.

Rev 12 applies to Mary, the old Israel, and the Church (the new Israel). It appies to all three.

MosesAlex:

Okay let me leave out the birth of the Church. And even as it concerns more Rev 12:2 spoke about the birth of a Child whom we agree is Jesus. Fine and good it helps the topic greatly.

Now in Gal 4:19, Your summary shows you agreed with what I am referring to , that is St Paul likened his pain to labour pains of Child birth. Not just any Child but giving birth again to Jesus in those the letter to the Galatians was referred to .

The Holy Spirit speaking through Simeon called the pain of Mary as that of a sword piercing her soul.(Luke 2:35)

The pain referred in Rev 12:2, Gal 4:19 and Luke 2:35 are all synonymous with great pains. Which are about the greatest anyone can bear.

So for Christ to be formed in the Galatians , involved St Paul going through pains he likened to Child birth.
Christ in dying for us, which provides us with opportunity for Christ to be born in us, involved Mary going through pains which the Holy Ghost called a "a sword piercing her soul", which Rev 12:2 likens to to the pain of Child birth.

I hope that rests Rev 12:2. We can move to you next points.

Here you go again...
After claiming that revelation 12;2 was referring to the pains & anguish Mary felt in giving birth to the church,then quoting even Galatians 4;19 to butress your point..
After I gave you the actual interpretation of that bible verse,you have come up with another meaning of rev 12 vs 2 ,saying that it describes the pain Mary felt " until Christ is formed in us",using Luke 2;35 to strengthen your point...
And I tell you ,you are very wrong again !

The Luke 2;35 was a prophesy actually preparing her (mary)for the event that will infold ....
That's the event that Jesus will go through for the salvation of our souls ,like the crucifixion, the brutal beating & other sufferings Jesus will undergo before her very eyes...
It was just like a warning ,so that she should be ready mentally,physiological & emotionally to handle the events that will lead to Christ death..
It has nothing to do with the preaching of the gospel till Christ is formed in us as you think in Galatians 4;19..
It has no similarities ,if it does,it's just the pains & anguish they both felt during the two processes...
But the pains & anguish felt by both Mary & Paul the apostle was not for the same purpose...

THE PAINS FELT BY PAUL WAS FOR THE PREACHING OF THE GOSPEL TO THE CHURCH IN GALATIA ,UNTIL THEY GO BACK TO THE TRUE WAY TO SERVE GOD ( that is what " until Christ is formed in you" means ).That's Galatian chapter 4 ;19

THE PAINS MARY FELT WHEN JESUS WAS CRUCIFIED WAS EXPLICITLY SUMMARIZED IN LUKE 2;35 ,IT WAS LIKENED AS A SWORD PIERCINGS THROUGH THE SOUL ...
IT WAS A DEVASTATING EXPERIENCE TO BEHOLD...HENCE SHE WAS BEING PREPARED EARLIER ON FOR SUCH EVENT..

THE SAME WAY PAUL WAS ACTUALLY WARNED BY JESUS CHRIST AFTER HIS ENCOUNTER WITH HIM ON HIS WAY TO DAMASCUS OF THE PAINS & PERSECUTIONS HE WILL SUFFER FOR THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST...
AND THAT WAS ACTUALLY WHAT HE EXPERIENCED AS YOU CAN SEE FROM GALATIANS 4;19...


Now,"Christ be formed in you" as used in the last paragraph of Galatians 4;19 simply means;
Accepting the gift of salvation,sanctification & holy ghost baptism & doing the will of God.
That's the only way Christ can be formed in anyone...& it could only be achieved by you, a preacher of the gospel of Christ,going out to preach to the lost souls..& allowing The Holy spirit of God to do his work to the souls you have preached the gospel of light to.
And that was exactly what Paul did before Christ was formed in them,the Galatia church.

IT DOESNT MEAN GIVING BIRTH TO CHRIST AGAIN ! EITHER PHYSICALLY OR SPIRITUALLY....

YOU JUST REMINDED ME OF THE "DOUBLE BIRTH" BEING PREACHED BY THE ROMAN CATHOLIC,WHICH THEY CLAIM THAT MARY ALSO GAVE BIRTH ,SPIRITUALY,TO JESUS CHRIST DURING HIS CRUCIFIXION !

WHAT BLASPHEMY !


Now,Mary was never recorded preaching the gospel of Christ to anyone,so how can she make Christ to be formed in you & I without preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to us ?...I need an answer to these.

Now,I repeat,Luke 2;35,Galatians 4;19 & the the whole event that took place during the crucifixion of Jesus Christ has nothing to do with Revelation 12: 2.
None of them !
They only have one similarity ;
The three events has to do with torments,pains & anguish ...

BUT THE PURPOSE FOR THE TORMENTS,PAINS & ANGUISH ARE DIFFERENCE.VERY WIDELY DIFFERENT.

As you can see,your points is coming across as one who is very interested in upholding a doctrine of a church by misinterpreting the gospel of Christ to suit your needs,rather than understand the concept of a message in the Bible..

Now I ask you again ;

HOW DOES MARY,THE MOTHER OF JESUS CHRIST RELATE TO REVELATION CHAPTER 12 VERSE 2 ?


N:B ;

Other mentions I got from you on the other topic,when we are done with revelation 12 from verse 1-17,I promise we shall deal with them..


Good evening...

With particular reference to you claim below. I would like to see the source of you claim. The Church was born at the crucifixion, except you are referring to the mystical body of Christ which is the Church. Which still goes to what i said earlier about Rev 12:2

Glycolysis:

YOU JUST REMINDED ME OF THE "DOUBLE BIRTH" BEING PREACHED BY THE ROMAN CATHOLIC,WHICH THEY CLAIM THAT MARY ALSO GAVE BIRTH ,SPIRITUALY,TO JESUS CHRIST DURING HIS CRUCIFIXION !
[/b]

Hmmmm

MosesAlex:

With particular reference to you claim below. I would like to see the source of you claim. [b] The Church was born at the crucifixion [/b]except you are referring to the mystical body of Christ which is the Church. Which still goes to what i said earlier about Rev 12:2

Came across the catholic article a month ago,though I did not bother to bookmark it,because its misleading & oozes false meaning to that bible verse on revelation 12;2 ,(The same way you are doing in these article you copied ,modified a bit & pasted it here .i also came across these same article too you pasted here ,which if you need the reference,i will post it too from the original source you copied it ! )
I will certainly source for it & paste the source here when I find them again before evening today .....

@the bolded ;
What do you mean by " the church was born at the crucifixion " ?

And again,what do your understand as church when used in the bible by Jesus apostles or the book of revelation ?

Pls ur answers,I will NEED bible verses you used to support you point (s)...that's if you used bible verses to support them...

Are you saying that they are two type of churches ?

"The church born on the crucifixion " as you claimed AND the mystical body of Christ which also represent a church ?

Now I ask you again ;
HOW DOES MARY RELATE TO REVELATION 12 VS 2 ?

You noticed I did not bother to talk about revelation 12 vs 1...

I know that's were the foundation of your hope is about the illusion you have about Mary having special place in heaven & interceding for you & tabling your request to God ( talk about mary being omnipresent ,to listen to all the prayers of the Catholics in the whole world at the same time & omnipotent ,to never forget what she was told by the catholic faithfuls when they pray to her,features only associated with the living God ! Is that not wonderful )

We will come to that verse 1 of revelation when we are done with other verses..

Glycolysis:

Came across the catholic article a month ago,though I did not bother to bookmark it,because its misleading & oozes false meaning to that bible verse on revelation 12, I will certainly source for it & paste the reference here when I find it...

@the bolded ;
What do you mean by " the church was born at the crucifixion " ?

And again,what do your understand as church when used in the bible by Jesus apostles or the book of revelation ?

Pls ur answers,I will NEED bible verses you used to support you point (s)...that's if you used bible verses to support them...

Are you saying that they are two type of churches ?

"The church born on the crucifixion " as you claimed AND the mystical body of Christ which also represent a church ?

Now I ask you again ;
HOW DOES MARY RELATE TO REVELATION 12 VS 2 ?

You noticed I did not bother to talk about revelation 12 vs 1...

I know that's were the foundation of your hope is about the illusion you have about Mary having special place in heaven & interceding for you & tabling your request to God ( talk about mary being omnipresent ,to listen to all the prayers of the Catholics in the whole world at the same time & omnipotent ,to never forget what she was told by the catholic faithfuls when they pray to her,features only associated with the living God ! Is that not wonderful )

We will come to that verse 1 of revelation when we are done with other verses..

I am really getting tired with your method of presenting your argument. Really. Remember I told liked the civil way you began.
You easily get off the topic,then you make declarations, not associated with topic and also wrong declarations.

Glycolysis:

I know that's were the foundation of your hope is about the illusion you have about Mary having special place in heaven & interceding for you & tabling your request to God ( talk about mary being omnipresent ,to listen to all the prayers of the Catholics in the whole world at the same time & omnipotent ,to never forget what she was told by the catholic faithfuls when they pray to her,features only associated with the living God ! Is that not wonderful )

MosesAlex:

I am really getting tired with your method of presenting your argument. Really. Remember I told liked the civil way you began.
You easily get off the topic,then you make declarations, not associated with topic or comments made

I ask you again ;
HOW DOES MARY RELATES TO REVELATION 12 VS 2 ?

https://www.nairaland.com/1102319/i.chuka-others-lets-discuss-d/3

These topic has been dealt with

MosesAlex:

Are you saying Mary did not suffer great pain or what?

Even before Jesus was born she faced the danger of being seen as an adulterer, which you know the consequence was death by stoning. (Leviticus 20:10
She faced been danger of been divorced by Joseph. (Matthew 1:19)
She could not find a decent place to give birth to her Son (Luke 2:7)
She and Joseph to flee from Herod who killed over 2000 babies (Matthew 2:16-18)
40days after the birth of Jesus, Simeon prophesied that a sword would pierce her soul (Luke 2:35)
She and Joseph sought for Jesus for 3days until they found him in the temple. (when he was at age of 12) (Luke 2:48)
She heard people contradict her Son. The most beautiful and Holy of Sons. (John 10:20 )
She watched her innocent Son carry the cross to Golgotha and watch him died for us.(John 19:25 )
She watched the centurion pierce His side.
She was with the early Church that faced persecution. And saw many of Her Son's followers martyred (Acts 1:14)

My dear, Mary suffered alot.

When Eve decided to eat the apple she was not just harming herself, (Gen 3:6) but lead to the harming of even generations after her, generations existing now, and even generations yet to come.
When Mary said has yes to God's plan (Luke 1:38), she not just helping herself, but generations till the end of the world.

Rev 12 applies to Mary, the old Israel, and the Church (the new Israel). It can apply to all three.

this what you wrote up there does not relate to rev 12.
the woman in revelation does not fit the description of mary.
how does revelation apply to Mary and the church?
how does the 1260 days in the wilderness apply to mary?
what does the seven stars, sun and moon represent with respect to mary?
who are the remaining children of Mary that would be persecuted by the dragon?

ichuka:
https://www.nairaland.com/1102319/i.chuka-others-lets-discuss-d/3

These topic has been dealt with

I don't think that revelation 12 relates to the church.
the church would have been taken away before this revelation is fulfilled.
the sun, moon and stars are symbols of the messiah, the law and the twelve tribes of israel.

Slay queen

Glycolysis:

I ask you again ;
HOW DOES MARY RELATES TO REVELATION 12 VS 2 ?

And behold my people ask for a sign and the sign that I will give is that a virgin shall bear a child and that child shall rule with an iron rod.

And only one person fits that description except you say Jesus was born twice.

solite3:

this what you wrote up there does not relate to rev 12.
the woman in revelation does not fit the description of mary.
how does revelation apply to Mary and the church?
how does the 1260 days in the wilderness apply to mary?
what does the seven stars, sun and moon represent with respect to mary?
who are the remaining children of Mary that would be persecuted by the dragon?

Let me help enlighten you, let's start with what "revelations" means. Revelation means a previously unknown truth or a truth revealed about something.

Human being as the Bible explained in Genesis was created by God on the 6th day, and God said come, let us make man in our own image and likeness. God man and God put his spirit into him. Next God put man in a garden and called him Adam.

"Man is made in the image and likeness of God" meaning looking exactly like a replica of God but not God who alone is omnipotent.

Fast-forward to John's Gospel, in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God, and the Word took flesh became man and dwelled amongst man. How this this happen. In Luke's gospel and the angel appeared to Mary greeting her "HAIL FULL OF GRACE, THE LORD HAS FOUND FAVOUR IN YOU, AND YOU ARE TO BEAR A CHILD, AND YOU SHALL CALL HIM EMMANUEL MEANING GOD WITH US".

Permit me to ask a question

Which other person has had an encounter with an angel and the angel hailed ?

Why did the Holy Spirit make Elizabeth shout blessed are you amongst all women and blessed is the fruit of your womb?

If Elizabeth proclaimed Mary is blessed amongst all women how come then that the woman depicted in revelation captures a greater glory than that which the Holy Spirit proclaimed about or are they the same person?

Please I await your honest reply to these questions

solite3:
I don't think that revelation 12 relates to the church.
the church would have been taken away before this revelation is fulfilled.
the sun, moon and stars are symbols of the messiah, the law and the twelve tribes of israel.

https://www.nairaland.com/1102319/i.chuka-others-lets-discuss-d/3

Have you gone through the above?

Aizenosa:


Let me help enlighten you, let's start with what "revelations" means. Revelation means a previously unknown truth or a truth revealed about something.

this still doesn't answer the question.

Human being as the Bible explained in Genesis was created by God on the 6th day, and God said come, let us make man in our own image and likeness. God man and God put his spirit into him. Next God put man in a garden and called him Adam.

"Man is made in the image and likeness of God" meaning looking exactly like a replica of God but not God who alone is omnipotent.

Fast-forward to John's Gospel, in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God, and the Word took flesh became man and dwelled amongst man. How this this happen. In Luke's gospel and the angel appeared to Mary greeting her "HAIL FULL OF GRACE, THE LORD HAS FOUND FAVOUR IN YOU, AND YOU ARE TO BEAR A CHILD, AND YOU SHALL CALL HIM EMMANUEL MEANING GOD WITH US".

since you have brought forth a clearly unrelated topic

first of all,
the angel NEVER said FULL OF GRACE only Jesus is full of grace and truth.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


secondly, it was not Mary that found FAVOUR with God.
Luke 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

it was God doing Mary a favor not the other way round.


if Mary had rejected the gift God had a BILLION replacement to mary.

if someone gives you a bilion $ would you reject it? having to be the mother of the messiah was more prestigious than that.
she was glad that although she a sinner like every one else was been favored to bear the holy Jesus.

Permit me to ask a question



Which other person has had an encounter with an angel and the angel hailed ?

angels have greeted many people in many different ways it doesn't make the superhumans.
for example, the angel of the Lord called Gideon a mighty man of Valor
the angel of God called Daniel a man greatly beloved.

greeting hail was just one of the ways of getting even Jesus greeted his disciples all hail. Does it mean they are super humans?

Matthew 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Why did the Holy Spirit make Elizabeth shout blessed are you amongst all women and blessed is the fruit of your womb?

If Elizabeth proclaimed Mary is blessed amongst all women how come then that the woman depicted in revelation captures a greater glory than that which the Holy Spirit proclaimed about or are they the same person?

Please I await your honest reply to these questions

Elizabeth remarks was based on the fact that she carries the Messiah, the one who would deliver Israel from their enemies.
@ bold
first of all, blessed are you amongst women doesn't mean she is the greatest woman.
similar statement was said concerning Jael.
Judges 5:24 Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.
doesn't mean jael is the greatest woman?
somebody praised mary before Jesus like she is special bit do you know what Jesus said? well read up yourself.

Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

did you see what how Jesus corrected her.
blessings are only for those who hear and keep the word of God.
did you know that Jesus rated his spiritual family more than his earthly family? Jesus wasn't a mummy's boy at all, in fact mary didn't understand Jesus.
Jesus never referred to Mary as mother.


Matthew 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.

Matthew 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

Matthew 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

Matthew 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.



secondly,
the woman in revelation is only symbolic, also see Rev 17 and Rev 18.
revelations uses a lot of symbols to conven it's message, the woman in Rev 12 represent a nation not a literal woman.

ichuka:

https://www.nairaland.com/1102319/i.chuka-others-lets-discuss-d/3

Have you gone through the above?

Yea I read it, there are a lot of inconsistencies in those interpretation.
the woman cannot be the church because it was clearly stated she gave birth to a man. the church didn't bring forth Christ rather it was Israel that did.
if you understand the prophecy of Daniel you will clearly know that Rev 12 us about israel.

Romans 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.


there are heavy proofs that the woman in Rev 12 is israel.

there is false gospel that says that the church has replaced israel, that is false the apostle told us that God had not cast off his people whom he first know.

Glycolysis:

Here you go again...
After claiming that revelation 12;2 was referring to the pains & anguish Mary felt in giving birth to the church,then quoting even Galatians 4;19 to butress your point..
After I gave you the actual interpretation of that bible verse,you have come up with another meaning of rev 12 vs 2 ,saying that it describes the pain Mary felt " until Christ is formed in us",using Luke 2;35 to strengthen your point...
And I tell you ,you are very wrong again !

The Luke 2;35 was a prophesy actually preparing her (mary)for the event that will infold ....
That's the event that Jesus will go through for the salvation of our souls ,like the crucifixion, the brutal beating & other sufferings Jesus will undergo before her very eyes...
It was just like a warning ,so that she should be ready mentally,physiological & emotionally to handle the events that will lead to Christ death..
It has nothing to do with the preaching of the gospel till Christ is formed in us as you think in Galatians 4;19..
It has no similarities ,if it does,it's just the pains & anguish they both felt during the two processes...
But the pains & anguish felt by both Mary & Paul the apostle was not for the same purpose...

THE PAINS FELT BY PAUL WAS FOR THE PREACHING OF THE GOSPEL TO THE CHURCH IN GALATIA ,UNTIL THEY GO BACK TO THE TRUE WAY TO SERVE GOD ( that is what " until Christ is formed in you" means ).That's Galatian chapter 4 ;19

THE PAINS MARY FELT WHEN JESUS WAS CRUCIFIED WAS EXPLICITLY SUMMARIZED IN LUKE 2;35 ,IT WAS LIKENED AS A SWORD PIERCINGS THROUGH THE SOUL ...
IT WAS A DEVASTATING EXPERIENCE TO BEHOLD...HENCE SHE WAS BEING PREPARED EARLIER ON FOR SUCH EVENT..

THE SAME WAY PAUL WAS ACTUALLY WARNED BY JESUS CHRIST AFTER HIS ENCOUNTER WITH HIM ON HIS WAY TO DAMASCUS OF THE PAINS & PERSECUTIONS HE WILL SUFFER FOR THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST...
AND THAT WAS ACTUALLY WHAT HE EXPERIENCED AS YOU CAN SEE FROM GALATIANS 4;19...


Now,"Christ be formed in you" as used in the last paragraph of Galatians 4;19 simply means;
Accepting the gift of salvation,sanctification & holy ghost baptism & doing the will of God.
That's the only way Christ can be formed in anyone...& it could only be achieved by you, a preacher of the gospel of Christ,going out to preach to the lost souls..& allowing The Holy spirit of God to do his work to the souls you have preached the gospel of light to.
And that was exactly what Paul did before Christ was formed in them,the Galatia church.

IT DOESNT MEAN GIVING BIRTH TO CHRIST AGAIN ! EITHER PHYSICALLY OR SPIRITUALLY....

YOU JUST REMINDED ME OF THE "DOUBLE BIRTH" BEING PREACHED BY THE ROMAN CATHOLIC,WHICH THEY CLAIM THAT MARY ALSO GAVE BIRTH ,SPIRITUALY,TO JESUS CHRIST DURING HIS CRUCIFIXION !

WHAT BLASPHEMY !


Now,Mary was never recorded preaching the gospel of Christ to anyone,so how can she make Christ to be formed in you & I without preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to us ?...I need an answer to these.

Now,I repeat,Luke 2;35,Galatians 4;19 & the the whole event that took place during the crucifixion of Jesus Christ has nothing to do with Revelation 12: 2.
None of them !
They only have one similarity ;
The three events has to do with torments,pains & anguish ...

BUT THE PURPOSE FOR THE TORMENTS,PAINS & ANGUISH ARE DIFFERENCE.VERY WIDELY DIFFERENT.

As you can see,your points is coming across as one who is very interested in upholding a doctrine of a church by misinterpreting the gospel of Christ to suit your needs,rather than understand the concept of a message in the Bible..

Now I ask you again ;

HOW DOES MARY,THE MOTHER OF JESUS CHRIST RELATE TO REVELATION CHAPTER 12 VERSE 2 ?


N:B ;

Other mentions I got from you on the other topic,when we are done with revelation 12 from verse 1-17,I promise we shall deal with them..


Good evening...

You appear to be firm on the point that Rev 12 has only one interpretation, and that interpretation has nothing to do with the Mother of God. That the Mother of God had no significant role in the salvation of the world other than giving birth to Christ after which all that was left for her was to see Christ suffer and die and that was it for the Mother of God. That only one interpretation of the Scriptures is consistent and that interpretation must be yours.

Is several interpretations of Scripture unheard of? In 1 Cor 10:4, St Paul told us "that rock was Christ" although the old Testament scripture being referred to was a story of the Israelites travelling through desert waste. In Eph 5:32, while speaking on the truth of marriage based on the story of Adam and Eve, St Paul commented: "This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church." So at the same time, the marriage of Adam and Eve is a blueprint for all human lawful marriages as well as the specific truth the spiritual union between Christ and the Church. Hence, a multiple interpretation of a single text is common place in Scripture.

Now, is there any cue that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the woman of Revelation 12 without prejudice to any additional symbolism of the chapter?
V1. First the woman was said to be decked with the glory of the celestial bodies. If ever any woman would be so arrayed, it would be she who is "blessed among women" (Lk 1:42) and she is none other than the Blessed Mary.
V2. The woman was with Child, and was in pain to be delivered. To understand this pain, it is important to remind ourselves that TWO brought about the Fall in the garden, Adam and Eve, before a TREE (Gen 3). To win the salvation of Man, Christ became the New Adam (1 Cor 15:22; Rom 5), hanging on a TREE (the cross, Gal 3:13). But where is the New Eve? Christ himself while hanging on the cross pointed her to us: "WOMAN behold your son" (Jn 19:26). The word "woman" is unusual from a loving Son to the most lovable mother but it ties with the promise of the New Eve: "I will put enmity between you and the WOMAN" (Gen 3:15). So that mother at the feet of the cross is the New Eve, who with the New Adam repaired the Fall before the cross, the New TREE of life. Did the old Eve play any role in the Fall of Man? Yes, she did, an indispensable role. To pay the devil in his own coin, tree for tree, man for man and woman for woman, the Blessed Virgin Mary had to play an indispensable role in the salvation of Man. Just as Christ the New Adam said "I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!" (Lk 12:50), so the Blessed Virgin was in travail to deliver in her role as the New Eve for the salvation of Man.
V3,4. The Dragon can be associated with Herod (Mt 2:16) who try to destory the Christ Child and all those who plotted to destroy the infant Church.
V5. The woman had a male Child who is clearly Christ our Lord, the King of kings and Lord of lords (1 Tim 6:15). But we know that Mary is the Mother of Jesus, our Lord. Therefore, as have been pointed out earlier, if the Child is Christ, the woman and his mother is Mary.
V6. The woman, the New Eve, fled into the wilderness to escape the devil, as Christ, the New Adam, did (Mk 1.35) and advised his disciples to do (Mk 6:31).
V13. The devil persecute the woman. So many Christians would complain of Eve, but few call Mary blessed even when that is their responsibility (Lk 1:48) and when God commanded it (Pro 31:31). Instead, they call her "envelope" and "ordinary woman". We can tell who is behind the misnomer.
V14. The woman was given wings of a great eagle fly into the desert. We already know what she does in the desert of prayer. No wonder St Luke often says, "But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart." (Lk 2:19) Every event was for her a point of meditation day and night (Ps 1:2)
V15,16. The devil attempted to overwhelm the Blessed Mary with a flood of sorrows but God provided her natural support in the person of the beloved disciple (Jn 19:27) and all other disciple that is beloved.
V17. The devil makes war with the rest of the seed of this woman. Remember, when Christ handed St John to his mother in Jn19:16, St John was not mentioned, but only referred to as "the beloved disciple". But we know that there are many disciples that are beloved, all those who kept the faith of Christ (Rev 12:17).
V18. We know the devil is standing on sand. He will fail.

From above, one can see that Rev 12 indeed do refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary without excluding the other interpretation that refer to the Church.