distinctguy:


Check out the records, Pele's teammates then we're all superb, especially in the 1970 world cup.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelé

These guys, especially the attacking five were top game winners, led by Pele. In fact, the squad was regarded as the best world cup team! And it was the ONLY OCCASION PELE WON THE BEST PLAYER OF THE COMPETITION!!!

I agrre they were even more than superb . What is your point?


The fact that Pele stood out head and shoulders tells you how great he was. You are making my point for me
Yes it was the only occasion because the other occasions when Brazil won the cup he was 17 and 21 and it was won by Didi and Garaincha who were 29/30. When he won it he was 30

Has a 17 0r 21 year old ever won it?.

How many 17 or 21 year olds even take part?

distinctguy:




So no red cards back then!!?? I agree with the point of the game been more physical then, but refs is active in judging back then too.

Again, many players back then do use enhancing drugs which were not yet identified back then.

So different eras will always have pros and cons.

Meanwhile, watch Eclasicos during Mou era at Madrid and see rough tackles and kickings on Messi.

Black players use drugs more than others?

Now you are going off point

Do you have any evidence to back this nonsense

0monnak0da:
Messi's success which is great is attributed to him .It is only fair that he should accept his failure too.

He failed at the World Cup and that is very important. He is the captain of Argentina that is a fact.
The team that wins a tournament is the best team. If Messi had been greater than he is maybe his team would have been better just like Maradona in 1986 he got the job done by any means necessary that is the difference.
If the German team were so obviously better than Germany why did they need extra time? Why did they struggle against Algeria?

That Messi is the only player that could make it into the German Team is not only exaggeration it is foolish talk. Even Messi could not make it into that team. He is not German and theat German team would not accommodate his style of play if he were
Just like he probably would struggle in the Premiership or Bundesliga
Winning is not about individuals but their blend . That is why Denmark won the European cup in 1992, Greece in 2004 and Porto the UEFA cup
Germany were not the best team because they had the best players that is absolute nonsense

If Maradona had wasteful players like Higuine as a point man in the world cup final, then Argentina won't win it too!!!

Meanwhile, I have lots of regards for what Maradona achieved in that world cup. That was dented by his drug issue anyway. Aside the drugs issue, Maradona was in a team that's also not so strong, unlike Pele who's always in a team having greats.

Obi1kenobi:


1)By actually watching football of the era. I have watched every knockout stage match England played at the '66 World Cup for example and watched Brazil's 1970 World Cup games. The far slower, far less intense game is easily apparent.
2) By watching the evolution of athletes in just about every other sport. Football is not immune from such natural evolution.
3) By noting the incentives for the game to evolve - especially the professionalization of the game. Majority of first division players in England as of the 1960's and prior were semi-pros at best who often worked second jobs as dock workers/stevedores, factory workers, postmen, police men etc etc. Except you were a Jimmy Greaves or Bobby Charlton and other top internationals it was hard to make a living just from football. This had obvious implications in the commitment of players to the sport.
4) By noting the globalization of the game and greater access of the world to top professional football. This obviously means a wider pool of talent in the sport. In 2 friendly matches in 1959, and 1964, England beat the USA 8-1 and 10-0 and thrashed Mexico 8-0 inbetween (among several other thrashings of other teams often in double-figures), If you're not playing some tiny islands like Leichtenstein, Faroe Island, San Marino, Gibraltar etc, that will not happen in modern football because there is a wider pool of professional talent across the world who are competitive.

You're asking me what the value of athleticism is in football? Might as well ask me what the value of a calculator/calculating device is in accounting. That athleticism is integral to the game doesn't mean it is the only important quality in the game - you're just being willfully obtuse now. And I never stated that athleticism is the only thing that has evolved in the game. The average player today is more technically proficient, and the game has come a long way in tactics and strategy. Modern day high intensity, high pressing football with high defensive lines and positional fluidity between the lines is totally alien to 1950's and 60's football.



No such unanimity exists. You haven't even supported the claim that Fergie called him the greatest. There will be no unanimity about Messi in his time because Messi had a great enduring rival in Ronaldo who himself has staked a claim to belong in the "Greatest of All Time" debates. Pele had no such rival because none of such rivals existed or were good enough. People used to claim Eusebio was greater than Ronaldo when Ronaldo was in Man U. Now he's in a different class from Eusebio with what he has done in his career.

You are talking theory

One thing you need to back up

"far slower"

by what measure

Any data? 10 % slower? 30 %?
What has slowness got to do with anything?
Games are slower in the heat anyway .
Tiki Taka is slower so what?
The Italians did very well with Catenacio

There is no evidence that faster means better?

You are just theorizing

Quite regularly the Italians win a World Cup and they do it with a unique style ditto for Brazil and Germany
so let us not pretend that there has been any revelation about the best way to play football or that speed is necessarily TRUTH
Even if it were how do you measure it?

Is Messi Faster than Thierry Heny or Michael Owen ?
Is Xavi or Iniesta?

Is it speed that makes it impossible to get the ball back from Spain or Barcelona.
Why did Spain crash out of the last World Cup with all their possession.

No one know all the answers so stop deceiving yourself

0monnak0da:

Black players use drugs more than others?

Now you are going off point

Do you have any evidence to back this nonsense

You're the one typing harant nonsense!!!

Where did you see in my post where I said "Black Players"??

I guess you need to get a windscreen!!

distinctguy:


You're the one typing harant nonsense!!!

Where did you see in my post where I said "Black Players"??

I guess you need to get a windscreen!!

That was a typo

Do you have any evidence for the drug claim?

distinctguy:


If Maradona had wasteful players like Higuine as a point man in the world cup final, then Argentina won't win it too!!!

Meanwhile, I have lots of regards for what Maradona achieved in that world cup. That was dented by his drug issue anyway. Aside the drugs issue, Maradona was in a team that's also not so strong, unlike Pele who's always in a team having greats.

Wasteful?

You need data

Maradona scored important goals BY HIMSELF including one of the greatest goals ever seen at a World Cup

0monnak0da:
Messi's success which is great is attributed to him .It is only fair that he should accept his failure too.

He failed at the World Cup and that is very important. He is the captain of Argentina that is a fact.
The team that wins a tournament is the best team. If Messi had been greater than he is maybe his team would have been better just like Maradona in 1986 he got the job done by any means necessary that is the difference.
If the German team were so obviously better than Germany why did they need extra time? Why did they struggle against Algeria?

That Messi is the only player that could make it into the German Team is not only exaggeration it is foolish talk. Even Messi could not make it into that team. He is not German and theat German team would not accommodate his style of play if he were
Just like he probably would struggle in the Premiership or Bundesliga
Winning is not about individuals but their blend . That is why Denmark won the European cup in 1992, Greece in 2004 and Porto the UEFA cup
Germany were not the best team because they had the best players that is absolute nonsense

This was Argentina's starting team sheet for the World Cup final:
GK 1 Sergio Romero
RB 4 Pablo Zabaleta
CB 15 Martín Demichelis
CB 2 Ezequiel Garay
LB 16 Marcos Rojo
CM 14 Javier Mascherano
CM 6 Lucas Biglia
RW 8 Enzo Pérez
LW 22 Ezequiel Lavezzi
SS 10 Lionel Messi (c)
CF 9 Gonzalo Higuaín

Other than Messi there, and maybe Higuain (who was garbage throughout the tournament) no body there is good enough to make Germany's team. This is of course conjecturing so telling me that Messi is not German is a nonsensical twist on the point I'm trying to make. And of course Germany's team would accommodate his style. What on earth are you going on about? There are like 4 positions in the starting 11 that Messi can easily play: whether replacing Ozil, or Muller, or Klose in the front 3, or playing just behind that front 3.

Your emboldened point there is self-contradictory. You're blaming Messi for not being able to lift his teammates to the title (Higuain infamously missed the one-on-one chance that would have won the World Cup for Argentina, unlike Valdano who took his chances for Argentina when Maradona inspired them to the title), yet at the same time, you're talking about the "blend" in the team. If you've watched Argentina's performances over the years under different managers, Messi would have needed to dribble through the entire opposition defense to score goals by himself. There was a period in the South American World Cup qualifiers that for several matches, no Argentine player other than Messi could score. In an eleven-on-eleven game, how much more do you expect him to do if his teammates are either not bringing their best or are not good enough or the management is a mess? Watch their catastrophic defending in the recent World Cup where they got thrashed against France and Croatia: what could Messi have done to lift a team that could not defend: the foundational quality that is at least needed to compete?

distinctguy:


If Maradona had wasteful players like Higuine as a point man in the world cup final, then Argentina won't win it too!!!

Meanwhile, I have lots of regards for what Maradona achieved in that world cup. That was dented by his drug issue anyway. Aside the drugs issue, Maradona was in a team that's also not so strong, unlike Pele who's always in a team having greats.

Why do you messi fans like blaming Higuain??

Obi1kenobi:


This was Argentina's starting team sheet for the World Cup final:
GK 1 Sergio Romero
RB 4 Pablo Zabaleta
CB 15 Martín Demichelis
CB 2 Ezequiel Garay
LB 16 Marcos Rojo
CM 14 Javier Mascherano
CM 6 Lucas Biglia
RW 8 Enzo Pérez
LW 22 Ezequiel Lavezzi
SS 10 Lionel Messi (c)
CF 9 Gonzalo Higuaín

Other than Messi there, and maybe Higuain (who was garbage throughout the tournament) no body there is good enough to make Germany's team. This is of course conjecturing so telling me that Messi is not German is a nonsensical twist on the point I'm trying to make. And of course Germany's team would accommodate his style. What on earth are you going on about? There are like 4 positions in the starting 11 that Messi can easily play: whether replacing Ozil, or Muller, or Klose in the front 3, or playing just behind that front 3.

Your emboldened point there is self-contradictory. You're blaming Messi for not being able to lift his teammates to the title (Higuain infamously missed the one-on-one chance that would have won the World Cup for Argentina, unlike Valdano who took his chances for Argentina when Maradona inspired them to the title), yet at the same time, you're talking about the "blend" in the team. If you've watched Argentina's performances over the years under different managers, Messi would have needed to dribble through the entire opposition defense to score goals by himself. There was a period in the South American World Cup qualifiers that for several matches, no Argentine player other than Messi could score. In an eleven-on-eleven game, how much more do you expect him to do if his teammates are either not bringing their best or are not good enough or the management is a mess? Watch their catastrophic defending in the recent World Cup where they got thrashed against France and Croatia: what could Messi have done to lift a team that could not defend: the foundational quality that is at least needed to compete?

Is there a machine that tells us who can get into the German Team?
That is your opinion

No one has a duty to become a billionaire and so cannot be blamed for not doing that

Thousands of footballers ply their trade and do well without being BLAMED for not becoming a great

So no one can blame Messi for not being as Great as Maradona who also found a way to win the World Cup in 1986

How can we say that the starting line up for Argentina in the 1986 Final was worse than in 2014? by what objective measure.


Maradona is greater than Messi

Maradona dribbled through the entire England opposition and even brought God to help him score another.

That is why he is great

0monnak0da:
That was a typo

Do you have any evidence for the drug claim?

Yes, i have evidence for my claim because FIFA started fighting doping in football in 1966!!!

You should have checked the records before countering mine.

https://www.fifa.com/development/news/y=2007/m=5/news=brief-history-doping-514062.html

herlonso:

You're wrong. Football of nowadays is harder. Keeper wear gloves now which makes it easy to save than before

No offside rule then but we have offside rules now

Saying football is harder then is baseless perhaps you want to say there is more competition then than now

The tackles of those days, You dare not try it in today's football, you will be shown a straight red card. I maintain my opinion that football is harder in those days than it is now..

0monnak0da:


Is there a machine that tells us who can get into the German Team?
That is your opinion

No one has a duty to become a billionaire and so cannot be blamed for not doing that

Thousands of footballers ply their trade and do well without being BLAMED for not becoming a great

So no one can blame Messi for not being as Great as Maradona who also found a way to win the World Cup in 1986

How can we say that the starting line up for Argentina in the 1986 Final was worse than in 2014? by what objective measure.


Maradona is greater than Messi

Maradona dribbled through the entire England opposition and even brought God to help him score another.

That is why he is great

I totally agree with you on Maradona's 1986 team not been better than Messi's 2014 and that's why I said earlier that I much respect Maradona than Pele.

But Maradona's doping spoiled his records, just as Zidane's headbutting spoiled his last world cup in which he was magical

distinctguy:


Yes, i have evidence for my claim because FIFA started fighting doping in football in 1966!!!

You should have checked the records before countering mine.

https://www.fifa.com/development/news/y=2007/m=5/news=brief-history-doping-514062.html

You never made a claim that FIFA started fighting doping in 1966

stop lying

Even if they did so what ? what is the relevance of that here or to anything I quoted you on? Did Pele not play in 1966 and after. This thread is about Pele and Messi what has doping got to do with that?

0monnak0da:
Did I sell you childish?
Comprehension problems?

then maybe you should proofread what you type before submitting it, cos that's what you wrote/implied. It wasn't my statement dude so it shows Maradona's age not my age.

Oegbeyem1:
then maybe you should proofread what you type before submitting it, cos that's what you wrote/implied. It wasn't my statement dude so it shows Maradona's age not my age.

That is your interpretation

I did not call you childish if I want to nothing stops me.

Go back to school and learn how to comprehend simple English

Oegbeyem1:
Pele single-handedly win the world cup. He scored 2 dumb goals in the final not three. You are saying rubbish my friend. Just like saying mbappe single-handedly win the world cup. I've seen all his clips, the guy was shut compared to today's players. At least Mabappe played in the 21st century and won the world cup as a 19-year old, still doesn't make him the best player around. One mumu old that played football 100 years ago is calling himself the greatest, Harry Kane sef beta pass am by far lool

Lolz,let's Agree On Two Goals Base On Your Research, I'm Sure If Any 21st Century Player Should Experience The Emergence Of Football Game,most Of Their Career Would Have Ended Long Ago. Mbappe Will Be On The Street Dreaming Till He Grows Old,messi Will Be Hidden In The Corner Of His Parents House Even Would Have Committed Sucide. Think Before You Talk,football Reformation Has Given Room For Many Talents. Injuries Are Easily Fixed Nowadays But Then Na The End Be That

Ikem11:
Messi Comparism ends with c. Ronaldo, kaka, Ronaldo of Brazil, litlle bit Ronaldinho. If u compare Messi with likes of Zidane, Beckham, Maradona, and legend of football Pele then u on your own.

Remove zidane and beckham from that list. Messi was much greater than they.

0monnak0da:
That is your interpretation

I did not call you childish if I want to nothing stops me.

Go back to school and learn how to comprehend simple English

bro you did and it doesn't take a strand of hair off my head either. Stop claiming professor of English here when you obviously don't have writing skills. That's the implication of what you wrote, maybe you thought one thing and write another, but that is the meaning of what you wrote, only you know what you meant and only you know that. "You said it is childish talk and that shows that I (not Maradona) am a child". When I was quoting someone. Admit your mistake and modify your post simple, stop messing yourself here

tony5:
Lolz,let's Agree On Two Goals Base On Your Research, I'm Sure If Any 21st Century Player Should Experience The Emergence Of Football Game,most Of Their Career Would Have Ended Long Ago. Mbappe Will Be On The Street Dreaming Till He Grows Old,messi Will Be Hidden In The Corner Of His Parents House Even Would Have Committed Sucide. Think Before You Talk,football Reformation Has Given Room For Many Talents. Injuries Are Easily Fixed Nowadays But Then Na The End Be That

well that is a good point but also think about the evolution of the game, the tactics of the modern game, the immense pressure and media criticism, haters, the intensity and speed of today's game, the competitiveness of today's game. Almost everybody is very good now. They all play football full-time.

obonujoker:


Why do you messi fans like blaming Higuain??

same reason why Juventus sold his ass and kept Mandzukic despite being older than Higuain. Higuain is a waste of space.

Sotland:


The tackles of those days, You dare not try it in today's football, you will be shown a straight red card. I maintain my opinion that football is harder in those days than it is now..

brother give us a break jare. What did the referee do when Ramos broke Salah's arm. The players of nowadays are even stronger, fitter and faster than 1950 gogoro. Pele's clips are even disgusting. The only person that even has a right to talk like this is Maradodododona. Pele na overrated fraud. His own GOAT is like ceremonial president. They just want him to feel good about himself as one of the pioneers of football but it is stupid to be comparing 21st century football to 1960s football. It's like comparing MacBook Pro to type writer.

Obi1kenobi:


1)By actually watching football of the era. I have watched every knockout stage match England played at the '66 World Cup for example and watched Brazil's 1970 World Cup games. The far slower, far less intense game is easily apparent.
2) By watching the evolution of athletes in just about every other sport. Football is not immune from such natural evolution.
3) By noting the incentives for the game to evolve - especially the professionalization of the game. Majority of first division players in England as of the 1960's and prior were semi-pros at best who often worked second jobs as dock workers/stevedores, factory workers, postmen, police men etc etc. Except you were a Jimmy Greaves or Bobby Charlton and other top internationals it was hard to make a living just from football. This had obvious implications in the commitment of players to the sport.
4) By noting the globalization of the game and greater access of the world to top professional football. This obviously means a wider pool of talent in the sport. In 2 friendly matches in 1959, and 1964, England beat the USA 8-1 and 10-0 and thrashed Mexico 8-0 inbetween (among several other thrashings of other teams often in double-figures), If you're not playing some tiny islands like Leichtenstein, Faroe Island, San Marino, Gibraltar etc, that will not happen in modern football because there is a wider pool of professional talent across the world who are competitive.

You're asking me what the value of athleticism is in football? Might as well ask me what the value of a calculator/calculating device is in accounting. That athleticism is integral to the game doesn't mean it is the only important quality in the game - you're just being willfully obtuse now. And I never stated that athleticism is the only thing that has evolved in the game. The average player today is more technically proficient, and the game has come a long way in tactics and strategy. Modern day high intensity, high pressing football with high defensive lines and positional fluidity between the lines is totally alien to 1950's and 60's football.



No such unanimity exists. You haven't even supported the claim that Fergie called him the greatest. There will be no unanimity about Messi in his time because Messi had a great enduring rival in Ronaldo who himself has staked a claim to belong in the "Greatest of All Time" debates. Pele had no such rival because none of such rivals existed or were good enough. People used to claim Eusebio was greater than Ronaldo when Ronaldo was in Man U. Now he's in a different class from Eusebio with what he has done in his career.

All your points have be so 'on point'.
You've completely dissected everything.

Anyone still down for this debate after reading this guy's comments is just being illogical/sentimental.

LesbianBoy:


E pain am!

You are the kid! Go check stats!

Champions league should be renamed CR7 league.....Period!

ediot go rename am Na.. since you know better

Avraham:
Remove zidane and beckham from that list. Messi was much greater than they.

zidane beats messi skill wise, leadership and he is more complete

SkinnyNigga:
ediot go rename am Na.. since you know better

As you skinny reach you still have mouth to call me "ediot"

I will just break your bones....mumu

Oegbeyem1:
bro you did and it doesn't take a strand of hair off my head either. Stop claiming professor of English here when you obviously don't have writing skills. That's the implication of what you wrote, maybe you thought one thing and write another, but that is the meaning of what you wrote, only you know what you meant and only you know that. "You said it is childish talk and that shows that I (not Maradona) am a child". When I was quoting someone. Admit your mistake and modify your post simple, stop messing yourself here

No I did not call you childish but you are stupid.

I hope that clears the air

odizeey:
zidane beats messi skill wise, leadership and he is more complete

If you are interested in a player carrying a team read up on Maradona at Napoli.
He took the club to their first ever Serie A title

0monnak0da:

If you are interested in a player carrying a team read up on Maradona at Napoli.
He took the club to their first ever Serie A title

how doee maradona carrying his team to their first ever series a, discards zidane's own carriage of France to their first world cup real Madrid to win 2002 ucl

odizeey:
how doee maradona carrying his team to their first ever series a, discards zidane's own carriage of France to their first world cup real Madrid to win 2002 ucl

It does not

0monnak0da:

No I did not call you childish but you are stupid.

I hope that clears the air

loool. Hehe. Dummie. You think a dumb word like stupid will hurt a grown as Lagos boy like me.

Oegbeyem1:
loool. Hehe. Dummie. You think a dumb word like stupid will hurt a grown as Lagos boy like me.

Any monkey can claim Lagos boy how is that my problem