CanadaOrBust:


[s]I like how u said the bolded but it is wrong. It is also why science will NEVER be able to explain certain things because the scientific method demands that things be repeatable under same conditions. (What it should demand is that things be demonstrable at least once). Just delve into quantum physics and you’ll see things can be totally arbitrary. Also how do u explain so many people getting winning lottery numbers from dreams, or people with gift of vision being able to foretell what will happen in distant future, or children who can remember their past life (some with a mark at the location of the wound that killed them). These things should be IMPOSSIBLE! Yet they happen. Danhumprey, tells u that science is incapable of ever being able to tell us the true nature of the universe[/s].

I should delve into Quantum Physics (QP)? Things are arbitrary?

You want to teach me QP as a physicist?

Scientists (noetic scientists, parapsychology, etc.) have been studying all these paranormal phenomena you mentioned above and other related ones for some years and they are making progress about them.

To understand concepts like soul (consciousness), death, OOBE, psi (an unknown factor responsible for sixth sense, seeing future events in dreams, etc.), parapsychologists, psychoanalysts, quantum scientists, neurologists and related experts are collaborating in a number of studies.

Instead of attributing every inexplicable phenomena to jazz or your god, it's better to adopt a scientific approach to study it with an open mind, postulate some ideas to test educated guesses (hypothesis), and set up an experiment in a lab to test these ideas.

With science, hardly anything is impossible. Only an ignorant fellow, who sees life issues through the lens of religion, think otherwise.

Your saying that things are arbitrary in quantum physics shows you don't even understand what the field is all about.

The correct statement to make is, QP postulates and assertions are counter-intuitive since before the 20th century, the majority of scientists used to view things using the ideas of classical physics.

But with the works of Max Planck, Werner Heisenberg, Neils Bohr, Erwin Schroedinger, and others from the beginning of the 20th century, a lot of things pertaining to position, momentum, energy of a particle, were found to break classical laws and that was counterintuitive!

Not arbitrary. Only an ignorant person uses "arbitrary" in that manner.

That something is counterintuitive does not make it untrue.

I see you don't know the current progress physicists are making investigating consciousness, wormholes, levitation, teleportation using quantum mechanics and relativistic concepts.

A number of things we take for granted now due to the current progress of science would seem counterintuitive to people that lived hundred of years ago.

What is arbitrary here?

gensteejay:

Ignorance is your problem!

This comment shows you so little about this history of science (before the era of the wicked souls that founded your religion, who killed and persecuted many scientists and philosophers, to the present date).

Also, this opinion shows you know little about the giant strides scientists have made, are still making and will make in all facets of life.

Only a slave of Yahweh underates science, saying something is impossible for scientists.

If science cannot explain the true nature of the universe with time, is it your Bible replete with errors, contradictions and mistakes, that will?

U didn’t answer any of the issues I raised. What quantum physics has shown us is that at its very core Nature does not follow the laws of Nature. Anything can happen. That’s why I never say anything is impossible.

That the Bible is replete with errors, contradictions and mistakes is proof of its authenticity - proof that no one person or group sat down and composed it, otherwise it will be well-coordinated and free of contradictions like works of fiction are. What that means is that it is not the person who wrote John that also wrote Acts as some claim. Which means that the general message they all agree on is true.

Also Chritianity is not based on the Bible. The earliest and most fanatical Christians had no Bible. Even today the most fanatical Christians don’t get it from the Bible - like St. Paul, they get it from DIRECT ENCOUNTER WITH THE SPIRIT. If a person KNEW he was troubled by a demon that disappeared on the appearance of Christ, no amount of telling him that parts of the Bible were made up will make him any less an extremely fanatical a Christian.

CanadaOrBust:


U didn’t answer any of the issues I raised. What quantum physics has shown us is that at its very core Nature does not follow the laws of Nature. Anything can happen. That’s why I never say anything is impossible.

That the Bible is replete with errors, contradictions and mistakes is proof of its authenticity - proof that no one person or group sat down and composed it, otherwise it will be well-coordinated and free of contradictions like works of fiction are. What that means is that it is not the person who wrote John that also wrote Acts as some claim. Which means that the general message they all agree on is true.

Also Chritianity is not based on the Bible. The earliest and most fanatical Christians had no Bible. Even today the most fanatical Christians don’t get it from the Bible - they get it fr

You don't know what quantum physics is all about. Don't discuss what you know so little about.

The highlighted part of your comment is very wrong.

The principles in quantum physics break classical laws, which are only a handful of the laws of nature.

Read about classical physics. I see you don't understand all these things you mentioned.

If anything can happen, then there will be no natural laws. The universe will be chaos but this isn't so. The universe is bounded by laws and principles.

gensteejay:

I should delve into Quantum Physics (QP)? Things are arbitrary?

You want to teach me QP as a physicist?

Scientists (noetic scientists, parapsychology, etc.) have been studying all these paranormal phenomena you mentioned above and other related ones for some years and they are making progress about them.

To understand concepts like soul (consciousness), death, OOBE, psi (an unknown factor responsible for sixth sense, seeing future events in dreams, etc.), parapsychologists, psychoanalysts, quantum scientists, neurologists and related experts are collaborating in a number of studies.

Instead of attributing every inexplicable phenomena to jazz or your god, it's better to adopt a scientific approach to study it with an open mind, postulate some ideas to test educated guesses (hypothesis), and set up an experiment in a lab to test these ideas.

With science, hardly anything is impossible. Only an ignorant fellow, who sees life issues through the lens of religion, think otherwise.

gensteejay:
deas.

With science, hardly anything is impossible. Only an ignorant fellow, who sees life issues through the lens of religion, think otherwise.

Bros, u have way too much confidence in science. Something as simple as knowing if this our reality is real is totally beyond science.

And no, QP is not just counterintuitive. In QP 2+2 is sometimes 5 and sometimes 10 and u have no way of predicting which it will be each time

CanadaOrBust:




Bros, u have way too much confidence in science. Something as simple as knowing if this our reality is real is totally beyond science.

And no QP is not just counterintuitive. In QP 2+2 is sometimes 5 and sometimes 10 and u have no way of predicting which it will be each time

The universe is bound by laws and principles. That we only very few about these laws doesnt mean "things are arbitrary" or "anything can happen".

Such is only possible in a chaotic universe.

Classical physics is actually a good approximation of QP under certain conditions, which means QP is general.

Though QP has been able to fill most of the gaps of classical physics, when it comes to studies on consciousness, death, and related aspects, QP fails.

To understand these concepts, I feel a new field will be discovered that will introduce an entirely new set of coordinates, different from the 3D we are familiar with.

A number of theoretical physicists and mathematician are working on these areas (consciousness-related studies).

The years ahead will be interesting.

gensteejay:

You don't know what quantum physics is all about. Don't discuss what you know so little about.

The highlighted part of your comment is very wrong.

The principles in quantum physics break classical laws, which are only a handful of the laws of nature.

Read about classical physics. I see you don't understand all these things you mentioned.

Ok, mr. physics, respond to my post above. Will 2+2 in QP under exact same conditions give different answers or not and do u have any way of predicting which answer it will give?

gensteejay:

The universe is bound by laws and principles. That we only very few about these laws doesnt mean "things are arbitrary" or "anything can happen".

Such is only possible in a chaotic universe.

Classical physics is actually a good approximation of QP under certain conditions, which means QP is general.

Though QP has been able to fill most of the gaps of classical physics, when it comes to studies on consciousness, death, and related aspects, QP fails.

To understand these concepts, I feel a new field will be discovered that will introduce an entirely new set of coordinates, different from the 3D we are familiar with.

A number of theoretical physicists and mathematician are working on these areas (consciousness-related studies).

The years ahead will be interesting.

You did not respond to this:

Bros, u have way too much confidence in science. Something as simple as knowing if this our reality is real is totally beyond science.

CanadaOrBust:


Ok, mr. physics, respond to my post above. Will 2+2 in QP under exact same conditions give different answers or not and do u have any way of predicting which answer it will give?

Lol. Apart QP, every Math student knows that 2+2 is only 4 in base ten. Any other base from base 2 and above (with the exception of 10), the sum won't give 4.

But that does mean it's arbitrary or we can just assign a number to the sum of 2 and 2. There are rules to follow depending on the base and sometimes the space in question.

gensteejay:

The universe is bound by laws and principles. That we only very few about these laws doesnt mean "things are arbitrary" or "anything can happen".

One of the most fundamental laws of the universe is that 2+2 under exact same conditions will always yield same result. Well QP has proven that the universe follows no such law, it only seems to us and makes sense to us that it should and does

gensteejay:

Lol. Apart QP, every Math student knows that 2+2 is only 4 in base ten. Any other base from base 2 and above (with the exception of 10), the sum won't give 4.

But that does mean it's arbitrary or we can just assign a number to the sum of 2 and 2. There are rules to follow depending on the base and sometimes the space in question.

Seems I am assuming u r smarter than u r. 2+2 is only a metaphor. That should be obvious. What I am using 2+2 to say is that in QP things done under same exact conditions yield different results.

BTW if u change base or anything it is no longer under exact same conditions

CanadaOrBust:


You did not respond to this:

Bros, u have way too much confidence in science. Something as simple as knowing if this our reality is real is totally beyond science.

A number of philosophers and scientists have stated that our world is virtual, examples are Wilhelm Leibnitz, Carl Jung, Spinoza, Descartes, and many others.

I feel they are right. But that's going into metaphysics, an aspect of philosophy.

A lot of things are yet to be discovered by science even things like understanding sleep, etc. which is why more people need to be involved in science and dump religions.

Religions do not bring advancement of knowledge; they only breed stagnation, fear, discord, and make one's intellect dull.

The things yet to discovered far outweigh those discovered now. And it is by only getting involved in science we can shift this balance, not by engaging in religions and superstitions.

CanadaOrBust:


Seems I am assuming u r smarter than u r. 2+2 is only a metaphor. That should be obvious. What I am using 2+2 to say is that in QP things done under same exact conditions yield different results.

BTW if u change base or anything it is no longer under exact same conditions

I don't think you understand all these things you're saying, oga.

When discussing science, you don't use metaphors to avoid ambiguity. You use clear expression and terms.

Metaphors are for religions and holy books.

CanadaOrBust:


One of the most fundamental laws of the universe is that 2+2 under exact same conditions will always yield same result. Well QP has proven that the universe follows no such law, it only seems to us and makes sense to us that it should and does

I fail to see how this means "anything can happen".

Try to read more about QP. You're painting an entirely different picture of what QP is all about.

To a person that sees life phenomena from the classical point of view, QP principles seem absurd and counterintutive.

The person's perception, which is shaped by their level of knowledge, is the cause of the confusion, not QP itself.

I don't know where you came about all these assertions you're making here about quantum physics.

Does QP make the universe seem chaotic or erratic to you?

gensteejay:

A number of philosophers and scientists have stated that our world is virtual, examples are Wilhelm Leibnitz, Carl Jung, Spinoza, Descartes, and many others.

I feel they are right. But that's going into metaphysics, an aspect of philosophy.

A lot of things are yet to be discovered by science even things like understanding sleep, etc. which is why more people need to be involved in science and dump religions.

Religions do not bring advancement of knowledge; they only breed stagnation, fear, discord, and make one's intellect dull.

The things yet to discovered far outweigh those discovered now. And it is by only getting involved in science we can shift this balance, not by engaging in religions and superstitions.

So u admit that something as simple as knowing if this our reality is real is totally beyond science.

And u keep comparing science and religion - things that have very different functions to humanity. When u r facing a hopeless situation, faith can save u or give u hope. That faith has to be anchored on something - that’s where religion comes in. Same applies too when u r facing something u don’t understand. Also u don’t know how many robberies or kidnappings u avoided because the would-be perpetrator got converted

CanadaOrBust:


So u admit that something as simple as knowing if this our reality is real is totally beyond science.

And u keep comparing science and religion - things that have very different functions to humanity. When u r facing a hopeless situation, faith can save u or give u hope. That faith has to be anchored on something - that’s where religion comes in. Same applies too when u r facing something u don’t understand. Also u don’t know how many robberies or kidnappings u avoided because the would-be perpetrator got converted

Religion is your problem. No person can show a good understanding of science viewing life issues through the lens of religion.

Religion can make the smartest human behave like the dullest.

That's why you're saying many farcical things about QP, showing you know very little about the subject.

Good luck with your beliefs.

gensteejay:

I don't think you understand all these things you're saying, oga.

When discussing science, you don't use metaphors to avoid ambiguity. You use clear expression and terms.

Metaphors are for religions and holy books.

You keep saying I don’t understand these things when clearly u r the one that doesn’t. In a forum like this u use 2+2 to prevent having to write a long essay and people of reason will know u don’t mean literally 2+2 and suddenly start arguing mathematics!!

But even literal 2+2 will give different results in QP

CanadaOrBust:


You keep saying I don’t understand these things when clearly u r the one that doesn’t. In a forum like this u use 2+2 to prevent having to write a long essay and people of reason will know u don’t mean literally 2+2 and suddenly start arguing mathematics!!

But even literal 2+2 will give different results in QP

I don't have time for this back-and-forth. You are just throwing scientific terms you know little about around.

No science-savvy person would say "in QP things are arbitrary," "anything can happen." That's a layman view of quantum physics.

gensteejay:

Religion is your problem. No person can show a good understanding of science viewing life issues through the lens of religion.

Religion can make the smartest human behave like the dullest.

That's why you're saying many farcical things about QP, showing you know very little about the subject.

Good luck with your beliefs.

If u were a little bit smarter and open your eyes a little more you’d realize religion has its place in a person’s life and humanity in general.

I asked a simple question, instead of answering the question u keep making ad hominem attacks.

Here is the question again:
In QP will an experiment under exact same conditions yield the same result. And if u admit it won’t, is there any way u can tell exactly what the result would be?

gensteejay:

I don't have time for this back-and-forth. You are just throwing scientific terms you know little about around.

No science-savvy person would say "in QP things are arbitrary," "anything can happen." That's a layman view of quantum physics.

Bros, this is not a forum of scientists. This is a forum of laymen and u have to speak accordingly.
Those statements are meant to convey that QP is more than just counterintuitive - which is your claim

CanadaOrBust:


If u were a little bit smarter and open your eyes a little more you’d realize religion has its place in a person’s life and humanity in general.

Yea, just like violence and terrorism.

CanadaOrBust:

I asked a simple question, instead of answering the question u keep making ad hominem attacks.

Here is the question again:
In QP will an experiment under exact same conditions yield the same result. And if u admit it won’t, is there any way u can tell exactly what the result would be?

An experiment in QP, and science generally, will yield nearly the same results (with some uncertainty) under exactly the same conditions.

If not, such an experimental technique isn't precise as it doesn't give accurate results (hope you know precision is different from accuracy in science).

CanadaOrBust:


Bros, this is not a forum of scientists. This is a forum of laymen and u have to speak accordingly.
Those statements are meant to convey that QP is more than just counterintuitive - which is your claim

I guess you need to check the title of this thread again. Which one is "more than counterintuitive"?

Does that mean "arbitrary"?

gensteejay:

Yea, just like violence and terrorism.

An experiment in QP, and science generally, will yield nearly the same results (with some uncertainty) under exactly the same conditions.

If not, such an experimental technique isn't precise as it doesn't give accurate results (hope you know precision is different from accuracy in science).

This proves to me u don’t know QP. See below. Maybe we should pause till u read up on it a bit. Do u know a thing can be both dead and alive in QP and that observed results are different depending on who is observing?

CanadaOrBust:


This proves to me u don’t know QP. See below. Maybe we should pause till u read up on it a bit. Do u know a thing can be both dead and alive in QP and that observed results are different depending on who is observing?

Are you a photon? You need to note the conditions in QP experiments are sub-microscopic.

Do you even know what a photon is?

Yes, particles can exist in more than states in quantum mechanics. Note the condition: sub-atomic

gensteejay:

Are you a photon? You need to note the conditions in QP experiments are sub-microscopic.

Do you even know what a photon is?

Yes, particles can exist in more than states in quantum mechanics. Note the condition: sub-atomic

Look at him. Instead of simply admitting he lost the argument. Why we keep using “QP” is precisely because what we are discussing is life at its very core - subatomic particles.

I even said verbatim, “RIGH AT ITS VERY CORE nature does not follow the laws of nature.”

So u lost.
Better luck next time - you and musicwriter who I always beat!

CanadaOrBust:


Look at him. Instead of simply admitting he lost the argument. Why we keep using “QP” is precisely because what we are discussing is life at its very core - subatomic particles.

I even said verbatim, “RIGH AT ITS VERY CORE nature does not follow the laws of nature.”

So u lost.
Better luck next time - you and musicwriter who I always beat!

Which kind olodo be this. The internet is there for you to read about quantum physics and stop embarrassing yourself in public.

QP deals with the physics of the small (sub-atomic, sub-microscopic), like photon, electrons, protons, neutrons, muons, neutrinos, etc. Unlike classical physics that deals with the physics of the big, things we see in our everyday life.

Is that too difficult for you to understand?

You don't discuss what you know little about, hence you sound silly.

How will you use a man as an example of a photon in a quantum mechanical experiment?

That shows you don't have an inkling about what QP is all about.

gensteejay:

Which kind olodo be this. The internet is there for you to read about quantum physics and stop embarrassing yourself in public.

QP deals with the physics of the small (sub-atomic, sub-microscopic), like photon, electrons, protons, neutrons, muons, neutrinos, etc. Unlike classical physics that deals with the physics of the big, things we see in our everyday life.

Is that too difficult for you to understand?

You don't discuss what you know little about, hence you sound silly.

How will you use a man as an example of a photon in a quantum mechanical experiment?

That shows you don't have an inkling about what QP is all about.

Have u totally lost it or u r just trying to confuse other readers that u lost

ONCE YOU SAY “QUANTUM PHYSICS” YOU ARE TALKING OF SUB-ATOMIC PARTICLES.

That’s what we’ve been discussing. I even said it right at the beginning of the discussion.

WHY IS THAT SO HARD FOR U TO UNDERSTAND?!

You lost - simply because u r arguing with a person a shade smarter than u r

CanadaOrBust:


Have u totally lost it or u r just trying to confuse other readers that u lost

ONCE YOU SAY “QUANTUM PHYSICS” YOU ARE TALKING OF SUB-ATOMIC PARTICLES.

That’s what we’ve been discussing. I even said it right at the beginning of the discussion.

WHY IS THAT SO HARD FOR U TO UNDERSTAND?!

You lost - simply because u r arguing with a person a shade smarter than u r

You're delusional.
Quantum mechanical systems deal with sub-atomic particles, and only extremely tiny things can exist in more than state, depending on the observer.

I fail to see how this proves that things are arbitrary in QP or anything can happen.

If what you're saying is so, the universe will be in chaos, not bounded by any laws.

You're just trying too hard to put a supernatural undertone here so you can show your Yahweh is mysterious and powerful.

Using science to prove religion is quite silly; for instance, an elementary particle of today may become a composite particle of tomorrow, which happened to proton and neutron (baryons), and electron (a fermion, or specifically a lepton) may soon become a composite particle as well.

Science changes every now and then, unlike most religions that don't.

gensteejay:

You're delusional.
Quantum mechanical systems deal with sub-atomic particles, and only extremely tiny things can exist in more than state, depending on the observer.

I fail to see how this proves that things are arbitrary in QP or anything can happen.

If what you're saying is so, the universe will be in chaos, not bounded by any laws.

You're just trying too hard to put a supernatural undertone here so you can show your Yahweh is mysterious and powerful.

Using science to prove religion is quite silly; for instance, an elementary particle of today may become a composite particle of tomorrow, which happened to proton and neutron (baryons), and electron may soon become a composite particle as well.

Science changes every now and then, unlike most religions that don't.

Stop making a fool of yourself. I don’t know who u think u r fooling. The exchanges are there for anyone to read.
I reproduce them here VERBATIM:

MY QUESTION TO U:
In QP will an experiment under exact same conditions yield the same result. And if u admit it won’t, is there any way u can tell exactly what the result would be?

YOUR ANSWER:
An experiment in QP, and science generally, will yield nearly the same results (with some uncertainty) under exactly the same conditions.

If not, such an experimental technique isn't precise as it doesn't give accurate results (hope you know precision is different from accuracy in science).

CanadaOrBust:


Stop making a fool of yourself. I don’t know who u think u r fooling. The exchanges are there for anyone to read.
I reproduce them here VERBATIM:

MY QUESTION TO U:
In QP will an experiment under exact same conditions yield the same result. And if u admit it won’t, is there any way u can tell exactly what the result would be?

YOUR ANSWER:
An experiment in QP, and science generally, will yield nearly the same results (with some uncertainty) under exactly the same conditions.

If not, such an experimental technique isn't precise as it doesn't give accurate results (hope you know precision is different from accuracy in science).

Go and read about all the experiments in QP in a good textbook or online and come back to read the trash you've been saying here and see if they're is any sense in it.

An observer can measure 2 different results for the position/momentum (not simultaneously) of a particle or a photon in an experiment in QP.

Note that I said measurement of position/momentum (or energy/time), not just using experiments generally (as you said), even though the set up does not involve the measurement of these pairs of parameters.

This is Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.

gensteejay:

Go and read about all the experiments in QP in a good textbook or online and come back to read the trash you've been saying here and see if they're is any sense in it.

An observer can measure 2 different results for the position/momentum (not simultaneously) of a particle or a photon in an experiment in QP.

Note that I said measurement of position/momentum (or energy/time), not just using experiments generally (as you said), even though the set up does not involve the measurement of these pairs of parameters.

Stop making a fool of yourself. See below again. It is from a respected scientific journal or simply ask google.
U aren’t fooling anybody.

YOU LOST THE ARGUMENT.

Good night.