XxSabrinaxX:

Good

Let me leave you with this:

You will be held responsible for your actions on the day of judgement... either you believe this or not.

The only way you can escape the Fury of the almighty is to accept Jesus as your Lord saviour.

Let him wash your sins away and purify you. Through this, you will have access to the kingdom of God.

Without this, the judgement of God is upon you........


Either you believe this or not,
I have delivered the message to you as I was sent by Jesus himself.

^^^

Religionists always threatening dissenters with fire and brimstone.
Religionists always quoting their manual/pamphlets in a rational discussion.

XxSabrinaxX:

Well, according to vocabulary.com(srsly use the internet, don't be asking me these kind of questions):

Omniscience comes from the Latin omnis meaning "all" and scientia meaning "knowledge."
Omniscience is a state of possessing all the knowledge there is — pretty impressive. In a religious sense, people believe in a higher being that has omniscience. In literature, omniscience can refer to the perspective of a narrator who is all-knowing or has the ability to see into the minds of all his characters.

I knew why I asked you. And how does being all knowing translate to programming people like a computer? God knew that you will be who you are today, but did He programmed or influence you to be an athiest? No He didn't. You choosed your part.

Likewise every soul has a choice.

^^^


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaJgLBoB_Pw

Originakalokalo:


Let me leave you with this:

You will be held responsible for your actions on the day of......

BOOORRRIIINNG!!!
Seriously, its like you christians have nothing else to say when you've been debunked and backed up into a corner besides "Judgement awaits you!", "You're on your way to hell!" etc etc

I mean when you said "Ok", that should have been enough for you. Try and be more original lol. Threatening an atheist with hell is like threatening a man that you'll stab him with cellophane

bloodofthelamb:


I knew why I asked you. And how does being all knowing translate to programming people like a computer? God knew that you will be who you are today, but did He programmed or influence you to be an athiest? No He didn't. You choosed your part.

Likewise every soul has a choice.

Obviously it's a conjecture. Why wouldn't I be able to perfectly simulate the universe if I knew enough about the laws of physics and had a powerful enough computer to do it?
And you're severely limiting God's range of knowledge. Omniscience means he knows all things, even the thoughts going through my head. If he created me, he knew i'd end up in hell. Why doesn't he change this if truly he's an all loving god? I mean, He's omnipotent, so he can just remove every single doubt in my heart in less than a second.

XxSabrinaxX:

BOOORRRIIINNG!!!
Seriously, its like you christians have nothing else to say when you've been debunked and backed up into a corner besides "Judgement awaits you!", "You're on your way to hell!" etc etc

I mean when you said "Ok", that should have been enough for you. Try and be more original lol. Threatening an atheist with hell is like threatening a man that'll you'll stab him with cellophane

Religionists start by quoting their holy books/manuals in an argument.

When that is debunked,next thing is to tell you that mankind has a free will in a world created by an omniscient God.

When that is debunked, they will tell you that,God works in a mysterious wayyy.

When that is debunked,they threaten you with eternal punishment of burning in hell fire.

When that is debunked, they resort to insults.

When that is debunked,they MAY/CAN resort to violence or killing in the name of their god(s) as if their omniscient, omnipotent god(s) can't fight for his/her/itself.

I have utmost respect for all the ladies courageously coming out on this forum to speak out and debunk religion for the fraud that it is.

Originakalokalo:


You have a choice to listen to the devil or to God.

Accept Jesus as your Lord and saviour and be saved.

Through Jesus, you will be able to say No to the devil's suggestions.

I don't know why this doesn't sound like an abusive relationship to you. Accept my love or I kill you. Terrible.

XxSabrinaxX:

Obviously it's a conjecture. Why wouldn't I be able to perfectly simulate the universe if I knew enough about the laws of physics and had a powerful enough computer to do it?
And you're severely limiting God's range of knowledge. Omniscience means he knows all things, even the thoughts going through my head. If he created me, he knew i'd end up in hell. Why doesn't he change this if truly he's an all loving god? I mean, He's omnipotent, so he can just remove every single doubt in my heart in less than a second.

Oviously he knows our thoughts. The thoughts of the wicked is an abomination to Him(see Pro15:16). See He cannot change the way you think. If he can, He wouldn't have asked the wicked to forsake his evil thoughts. If God can, He wouldn't have asked us to renew our minds( Romans 12:2). The Bible said, guard your heart with all dilligent for out it flows the issue of life(Pro4:23). God will not guide it for you. We are the gate keeper of our thoughts.

Dantedasz:
^^^

Religionists always threatening dissenters with fire and brimstone.
Religionists always quoting their manual/pamphlets in a rational discussion.

" He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath

not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. "
(John 3: 18)


Either you believe it or not, Jesus is either your Judge or your saviour.

Your choice.

Dantedasz:


Religionists start by quoting their holy books/manuals in an argument.

When that is debunked,next thing is to tell you that mankind has a free will in a world created by an omniscient God.

When that is debunked, they will tell you that,God works in a mysterious wayyy.

When that is debunked,they threaten you with eternal punishment of burning in hell fire.

When that is debunked, they resort to insults.

When that is debunked,they MAY/CAN resort to violence or killing in the name of their god(s) as if their omniscient, omnipotent god(s) can't fight for his/her/itself.

I have utmost respect for all the ladies courageously coming out on this forum to speak out and debunk religion for the fraud that it is.

Stages of backsliding usually follow these pattern:

Stage1.

I am deep in sin, (theft, Formication, adultery, sexual perversion, masturbation, killing, abortion, fraud, etc)

my conscience tells me what I am doing is bad, I feel bad after each act..

Stage2.

I don't feel like going to church because they tell me the truth there... They even want to know my house but I don't want my secrets to be exposed...

Gradually I stop going to church and look for excuses.

Stage3.

I come on nairaland and see people doubt the word of God which is the bible... I join them, criticizes everything that has to do with JUDGEMENT AND HELL.

I see people argue against hell and the almighty God.

I am glad... "hell doesn't make sense " "God cannot throw people in hell "
.
"the bible does not make sense "
.
Etc.
.
Stage 4.

I declare that there is no God.... There is no Jesus...

I AM FREEEEEEE.

stage5.

I continue living my life and looking for supporters in my newly found faith...

I become strong in the new believe and drag others in.

Conclusion :

Your newly found believe is a believe after all.

It doesn't stop the existence of God in anyway.....

Then Judgement is still coming...
.
You are still in Trouble.

Genuine children of God who live their lives daily for Jesus ARE NOT BOTHERED ABOUT DEATH AND JUDGEMENT.

Apostle Paul said. ...To Die is gain BECAUSE I WILL BE WITH THE LORD.

Are you scared of judgement day or contesting it's existence?


Check your life.
.
Accept Jesus as your Lord and saviour AND LIVE A HOLY LIFE THROUGH THE HELP OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

PastorAIO:
In other words do we have Character. Yes indeed, we are defined by our character. Does our character determine our actions and the choices we make. Yes indeed it does.

Does God have a Character?

Of course, otherwise God would be featureless, non existent.

Therefore along with everything else in the universe that has character and is bound to act according its character God (whichever one) cannot exercise freedom of Will but rather will act in that manner prescribed by his Character.

Just like it is the character of dried leaves to catch fire when you put a flame to them due to the very nature of what dried leaves are.

I like this post here.

Originakalokalo:


Let me leave you with this:

You will be held responsible for your actions on the day of judgement... either you believe this or not.

The only way you can escape the Fury of the almighty is to accept Jesus as your Lord saviour.

Let him wash your sins away and purify you. Through this, you will have access to the kingdom of God.

Without this, the judgement of God is upon you........


Either you believe this or not,
I have delivered the message to you as I was sent by Jesus himself.

God is responsible for evil or sin, he's the creator of everything!

Originakalokalo:


This is trending these days...

Stage1.

I am deep in sin, (theft, Formication, adultery, sexual perversion, masturbation, killing, abortion, fraud, etc)

my conscience tells me what I am doing is bad, I feel bad after each act..

Stage2.

I don't feel like going to church because they tell me the truth there... They even want to know my house but I don't want my secrets to be exposed...

Gradually I stop going to church and look for excuses.

Stage3.

I come on nairaland and see people doubt the word of God which is the bible... I join them, criticizes everything that has to do with JUDGEMENT AND HELL.

I see people argue against hell and the almighty God.

I am glad... "hell doesn't make sense " "God cannot throw people in hell "
.
"the bible does not make sense "
.
Etc.
.
Stage 4.

I declare that there is no God.... There is no Jesus...

I AM FREEEEEEE.

stage5.

I continue living my life and looking for supporters in my newly found faith...

I become strong in the new believe and drag others in.

Conclusion :

Your newly found believe is a believe after all.

It doesn't stop the existence of God in anyway.....

Then Judgement is still coming...
.
You are still in Trouble.

Genuine children of God who live their lives daily for Jesus ARE NOT BOTHERED ABOUT DEATH AND JUDGEMENT.

Apostle Paul said. ...To Die is gain BECAUSE I WILL BE WITH THE LORD.

Are you scared of judgement day or contesting it's existence?


Check your life.
.
Accept Jesus as your Lord and saviour AND LIVE A HOLY LIFE THROUGH THE HELP OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-D8Mf9DdQI

@XxSabrinaxX, if this is true, then laws would not exist at all. So, why do they?

No. It is "The Hope". The Life of Christ in Believers. "In Him is The Life and The Life is His Light in us".

Ihedinobi3:
@XxSabrinaxX, if this is true, then laws would not exist at all. So, why do they?

'Freewill' is what some people use to describe the exhibiting of the characteristics of living things by living things.
How else can something as simple as 'movement' become complex?
Anyone that is not exercising this so-called freewill is actually dead.
Laws are created in order for constituted authorities to function administratively.

XxSabrinaxX:
If you knew enough about the laws of physics, and you had a powerful enough computer, theoretically you could perfectly simulate the entire universe from start to finish. When I say perfect, I mean perfect. In our simulation, every thing that has ever happened in this universe and ever will happen in this universe will happen exactly the same way in our simulation. Every thought that every living being has ever had, every action that every living being has ever taken, will occur in exactly the same manner every single time the simulation is run.
That means that no matter what, all of your thoughts and actions you've ever had and will ever have, have been predetermined by the laws of physics. Nothing you do or think can possibly change that fact because you were always going to have those thoughts and were always going to do those things. Everything you do is because the creator determined that's what you have to do when he set the laws of physics into motion with the Big Bang. You do not have a choice. Free will is an illusion because we are bound by the laws of physics.

The only circumstance in which we wouldn't be bound by the laws of physics is if the creator admitted that his creation was flawed from the start and needed to be modified, so he intervened at some place and time to cause a change in events. In which case free will would still not exist.
Rejection of Yahweh as the demiurge is not something I have chosen. He predetermined that I would be born under the circumstances that I was, and that the chemicals in my brain would react a certain way to cause me to feel this way, and that I would sin.

Taking this argument to its logical conclusion demonstrates that nothing anybody ever does is "evil" because they never had a choice in the first place. It wasn't Hitler's fault that his brain didn't work right and caused him to kill all those people and then himself. The creator forced him to do all of that, so the blame for all evil in the universe can be placed squarely on the creator.

So why is he going to send anyone to a place of eternal torment for everything he forced them to do in the first place? It sounds like he is a sadist who gets off creating beings, forcing them to suffer in this universe, then forcing most of them to experience an incomprehensible amount of suffering in Hell for all eternity after death, and those who are left will be forced to go to "heaven" to be with this maniac for all eternity with the knowledge that their loved ones are experiencing an incomprehensible amount of suffering forever and ever.

Change my view that free will doesn't exist and that Yahweh is actually the Satanic Demiurge.

Madam, your ability to differentiate between good and bad, d might to choose either good or bad is what free will is all about.

And you will be judged according to the choices u make

HellVictorinho:

'Freewill' is what some people use to describe the exhibiting of the characteristics of living things by living things.
How else can something as simple as 'movement' become complex?
Anyone that is not exercising this so-called freewill is actually dead.
Laws are created in order for constituted authorities to function administratively.

I'm afraid I don't understand anything you just said.

Are you saying that free will is how we explain movement? If you are, how is this an insufficient explanation?

When you say that laws are created in order for constituted authorities to function administratively, what exactly does that mean in the context of this discussion? What I mean is, laws quite obviously delineate the actions of human beings assigning one or other moral value to them with opposite results. This clearly is the function of constituted authorities. They exist to "create" these laws and enforce them. So, I don't quite get what you mean by "function administratively". Do you mean that laws exist in order for constituted authorities to create them and enforce them? That wouldn't make much sense.

If you agree that laws exist in order to establish and enforce a difference between good and bad moral behavior, then my question is how such a universal phenomenon can exist if free will is an illusion?

Ihedinobi3:

I'm afraid I don't understand anything you just said.

Are you saying that free will is how we explain movement? If you are, how is this an insufficient explanation?

When you say that laws are created in order for constituted authorities to function administratively, what exactly does that mean in the context of this discussion? What I mean is, laws quite obviously delineate the actions of human beings assigning one or other moral value to them with opposite results. This clearly is the function of constituted authorities. They exist to "create" these laws and enforce them. So, I don't quite get what you mean by "function administratively". Do you mean that laws exist in order for constituted authorities to create them and enforce them? That wouldn't make much sense.

If you agree that laws exist in order to establish and enforce a difference between good and bad moral behavior, then my question is how such a universal phenomenon can exist if free will is an illusion?

You got it all wrong.
The mention of 'movement' only buttressed the point made in the first statement.
Laws differ based on the constitution and legal system of different countries.
So there are no specific laws that are capable of establishing a universal/global difference between good/bad morals.
What you call good here might be seen as bad in other places.
Human Behavior is actually the phenomenon here.
Laws are not always implications of an objective moral setting.
Morality can also be subjective.
Lastly,when I say 'administratively',I mean as a 'Management'.
Governments that are defined by constitution can't 'manage' a nation without laws that state how the constitution affects the legal system.

HellVictorinho:


You got it all wrong.
The mention of 'movement' only buttressed the point made in the first statement.
Laws differ based on the constitution and legal system of different countries.
So there are no specific laws that are capable of establishing a universal/global difference between good/bad morals.
What you call good here might be seen as bad in other places.
Human Behavior is actually the phenomenon here.
Laws are not always implications of an objective moral setting.
Morality can also be subjective.
Lastly,when I say 'administratively',I mean as a 'Management'.
Governments that are defined by constitution can't 'manage' a nation without laws that state how the constitution affects the legal system.

I was asking for clarification, so I understand if I understood you wrong.

Explain the first statement you refer to. I don't understand it any better right now.

My argument with laws is not that we all agree on what is right and wrong or good and evil. Rather, it is that if there is no free will, we have no way of explaining the universal attitude of human beings in their creation of laws to establish a difference between good and evil and celebrate good while punishing evil. If we really believed free will to be a lie, we would not make laws at all, much less celebrate whatever we consider good and punish what we consider evil. So, the issue of subjectivity really is no answer here.

How do governments manage a nation exactly if it is not by making and enforcing laws?

XxSabrinaxX:
If you knew enough about the laws of physics, and you had a powerful enough computer, theoretically you could perfectly simulate the entire universe from start to finish. When I say perfect, I mean perfect. In our simulation, every thing that has ever happened in this universe and ever will happen in this universe will happen exactly the same way in our simulation. Every thought that every living being has ever had, every action that every living being has ever taken, will occur in exactly the same manner every single time the simulation is run.
That means that no matter what, all of your thoughts and actions you've ever had and will ever have, have been predetermined by the laws of physics. Nothing you do or think can possibly change that fact because you were always going to have those thoughts and were always going to do those things. Everything you do is because the creator determined that's what you have to do when he set the laws of physics into motion with the Big Bang. You do not have a choice. Free will is an illusion because we are bound by the laws of physics.

The only circumstance in which we wouldn't be bound by the laws of physics is if the creator admitted that his creation was flawed from the start and needed to be modified, so he intervened at some place and time to cause a change in events. In which case free will would still not exist.
Rejection of Yahweh as the demiurge is not something I have chosen. He predetermined that I would be born under the circumstances that I was, and that the chemicals in my brain would react a certain way to cause me to feel this way, and that I would sin.

Taking this argument to its logical conclusion demonstrates that nothing anybody ever does is "evil" because they never had a choice in the first place. It wasn't Hitler's fault that his brain didn't work right and caused him to kill all those people and then himself. The creator forced him to do all of that, so the blame for all evil in the universe can be placed squarely on the creator.

So why is he going to send anyone to a place of eternal torment for everything he forced them to do in the first place? It sounds like he is a sadist who gets off creating beings, forcing them to suffer in this universe, then forcing most of them to experience an incomprehensible amount of suffering in Hell for all eternity after death, and those who are left will be forced to go to "heaven" to be with this maniac for all eternity with the knowledge that their loved ones are experiencing an incomprehensible amount of suffering forever and ever.

Change my view that free will doesn't exist and that Yahweh is actually the Satanic Demiurge.

that God knows all things and can do all things DOES NOT MEAN HE DOES ALL THINGS.

He only does those things that are right.


That God give you the freedom to curse and blasphemy him is the greatest proof that HE IS NOT A TYRANT.

If you know the characters of God, you will understand why God does certain things he does.
God qualities include
Love
Truth
Righteousness
Faithfulness
Mercy
Etc.
If God prevent evil from existing, it will mean he is hiding something and hence not truthful.

If God does not Judge evil it will make him unrighteous.

If God cannot forgive it will make him unmerciful.

If God does not prove a way out for man's freedom he will be unloving.

We can go on and on. That God knows what will happen does not make him the cause.

Human being was given free will because God is love although they are stabbing him for his love.

Freewill mean God will not interfere with your choice to bend it or change it.

Now, if you choose evil, how is it God's fault?


God did not program you neither did he choose to destroy you.

solite3:
that God knows all things and can do all things DOES NOT MEAN HE DOES ALL THINGS.

He only does those things that are right.

God only does those things that are right because it is his character to only do those things which are right. Therefore God is Character bound to do the things he does and himself does not have free will, talk less of giving free will to others.

He would be character bound to create the universe and all its laws. Just as humans are character bound to form the societies and social laws that they form.

That God give you the freedom to curse and blasphemy him is the greatest proof that HE IS NOT A TYRANT.

I can guarantee you freedom of speech, however, Freedom after speech I cannot promise. - Idi Amin

Another interesting one is:

When we go to heaven having passed the final judgement will we still have Free Will.

If there is Free Will in heaven then that means that there is a possibility that someone might do an evil act in Heaven and may be start the whole redemption game all over again.

Unless there is no free will in heaven then Heaven can actually work as an idea.

Does Man have an evil character?


Does the wicked man think wicked thought because that is an expression of his wicked character? Or does he do wicked thing in spite of the fact that he is in fact a lovely guy?

If the actions are a product of the character then we have to ask, Who created the character?

Ihedinobi3:

I was asking for clarification, so I understand if I understood you wrong.

Explain the first statement you refer to. I don't understand it any better right now.

My argument with laws is not that we all agree on what is right and wrong or good and evil. Rather, it is that if there is no free will, we have no way of explaining the universal attitude of human beings in their creation of laws to establish a difference between good and evil and celebrate good while punishing evil. If we really believed free will to be a lie, we would not make laws at all, much less celebrate whatever we consider good and punish what we consider evil. So, the issue of subjectivity really is no answer here.

How do governments manage a nation exactly if it is not by making and enforcing laws?

Alright, I will explain.
Biologically, humans are wired to do certain things including: moving, feeding, developing feelings(in response),competing,adapting,developing sexual behaviors,exchanging gases,etc.
So,they are expected to do certain things by default and not because they actually had a choice.
Yet,that doesn't prove that there is an Intelligent Designer with a purpose in mind and it doesn't prove that there is a Divine Consciousness that facilitates 'everything'.
This is because of the obvious absurdities/meaningless events that prove otherwise.
As regards the creation/making of Laws,you should understand that the natural tendency of humans to organize themselves leads to the necessity for constituted authorities.
And these authorities are acquainted with the responsibility of maintaining this organization.
But they can't do it without setting limits for the exhibition of individual desires,ambitions,feelings, behaviors,etc among members of the society in their localities.
Lastly, I know why you think there is 'freewill'=Religious dogma.

HellVictorinho:

Alright, I will explain.
Biologically, humans are wired to do certain things including: moving, feeding, developing feelings(in response),competing,adapting,developing sexual behaviors,exchanging gases,etc.
So,they are expected to do certain things by default and not because they actually had a choice.

These certain things that they are wired to do would include making laws, n'est-ce pas?

PastorAIO:


These certain things that they are wired to do would include making laws, n'est-ce pas?

Read everything I posted carefully before assuming that you understand.

HellVictorinho:

Read everything I posted carefully before assuming that you understand.

I'm not assuming. I'm asking to see if your position would tally with mine.
'
N'estce pas' in French means 'abi, not be so?'

I'm just checking to see if you're capable of expanding your reasoning...

PastorAIO:



I'm not assuming. I'm asking to see if your position would tally with mine.
'
N'estce pas' in French means 'abi, not be so?'

I'm just checking to see if you're capable of expanding your reasoning...

Read everything in my post to know if it will!!!!
And why are you reluctant to read everything?
Also,it doesn't make sense to ask if I can expand my reasoning!!!!!
Think critically before you type!!!!

PastorAIO:
In other words do we have Character. Yes indeed, we are defined by our character. Does our character determine our actions and the choices we make. Yes indeed it does.

Does God have a Character?

Of course, otherwise God would be featureless, non existent.

Therefore along with everything else in the universe that has character and is bound to act according its character God (whichever one) cannot exercise freedom of Will but rather will act in that manner prescribed by his Character.

Just like it is the character of dried leaves to catch fire when you put a flame to them due to the very nature of what dried leaves are.

From what you've said here, I'm inclined to say the character of gods is to not exist since my position is that they don't exist.

What you reckon, Pastor?

HellVictorinho:

Read everything in my post to know if it will!!!!
And why are you reluctant to read everything?
Also,it doesn't make sense to ask if I can expand my reasoning!!!!!
Think critically before you type!!!!

Good gosh! Let's just leave it. Hopefully you'll find someone with whom you can have the fight you are seeking with.