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God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. - Religion (5) - Nairaland

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Re: God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. by HellVictorinho(m): 11:18pm On Jan 11
MuttleyLaff:
Do you choose your children
Its interesting how applying false logic fails. Applying false logic humbles and wokes
Logic says you can't choose your children literally.
And the fact that you are bound to choose doesn't mean you are solely responsible for everything that happens to you.
If you are against LOGIC,try common sense.
Re: God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. by MuttleyLaff: 11:31pm On Jan 11
HellVictorinho:
Logic says you can't choose your children literally.
And the fact that you are bound to choose doesn't mean you are solely responsible for everything that happens to you.
If you are against LOGIC, try common sense.
Unlike what you're trying to insinuate, nobody is against logic, nobody is against common sense, nobody is against conventional wisdom. Some starve the best part of the mind because of false logic
Re: God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. by HellVictorinho(m): 11:33pm On Jan 11
MuttleyLaff:
Unlike what you're trying to insinuate, nobody is against logic, nobody is against common sense, nobody is against conventional wisdom. Some starve the best part of the mind because of false logic
False logic is not logic.
Re: God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. by MuttleyLaff: 11:35pm On Jan 11
HellVictorinho:
False logic is not logic.
Thats why its called false logic
Re: God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. by HellVictorinho(m): 11:41pm On Jan 11
MuttleyLaff:
Thats why its called false logic
Freewill usually refers to something illogical.
Re: God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. by MuttleyLaff: 11:43pm On Jan 11
HellVictorinho:
Freewill usually refers to something illogical.
Usually it might but not always or all the time
Re: God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. by HellVictorinho(m): 11:45pm On Jan 11
MuttleyLaff:
Usually it might but not always or all the time
If it has to do with God, it is illogical.
Re: God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. by MuttleyLaff: 11:46pm On Jan 11
HellVictorinho:
If it has to do with God, it is illogical.
Your for example(s)?:
Re: God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. by HellVictorinho(m): 12:00am On Jan 12
MuttleyLaff:
Your for example(s)?:
God's identity is that of a heartless being that is ever-ready to involve Man in his childish games with Satan despite knowing that Man is an amateur.
In fact,Man is just like the software.
Later,The Game of Edges shall become the The Game of Gory and the software (humans )will be left to the Lunatic Prince a.k.a Satan to destroy.

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Re: God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. by tintingz(m): 12:06am On Jan 12
bloodofthelamb:


Friend, how does me knowing you will type this, translate to me controlling you to type it?
You can easily tell me you're in control of my life, my destiny has been written or known.

It's not about the choices I make, it's about the choices that has been destined. Acting on necessity and fate is not freewill.

If you tell me I'm going type in so so time, you listed each time I typed, my thoughts, my reaction even when I have the choice to do otherwise I ended op doing exactly what you said 100%, oga what does that mean?

Destiny: the hidden power believed to control future events; fate.
Re: God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. by tintingz(m): 12:16am On Jan 12
MuttleyLaff:
No destiny has been programmed anywhere for any one. What exists, is a programme to responds to whatever choices there are available for you to take, pick or make through you exercising freewill. Your destiny, is determined by the choices you made or choices others have made that have a ripple effect on you or your life.

No one has had a gun put to their head by God to do anything, say anything or write anything.
The bolded is "determinism" and not "destiny". Destiny is your whole fate has been programmed before you're born even born, it is like a play.

Determinism doesn't have to any meaningful thing.

We are already gods, each one of us humans turned into gods, right back from Eden. You know how and in what context, we are gods, don't you tintingz?
These are just fairytales.

Not in the least bit is it supporting your argument and an argument it really is, this your viewpoint because I have never entertained the thought that because He beforehand knows my every moves, actions, thought and/deed He controls me, rather I have huge respect to Him for having huge balls of steel, almost literally speaking there, to still go ahead and let me exist, knowing fully well the antics I'll be up to, knowing fully well the extent of how much of a jerk or bitch human beings will go to.
Go back and read your previous response again.
Re: God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. by MuttleyLaff: 12:16am On Jan 12
HellVictorinho:
God's identity is that of a heartless being that is ever-ready to involve Man in his childish games with Satan despite knowing that Man is an amateur.
In fact, Man is just like the software.
Later, The Game of Edges shall become the The Game of Gory and the software (humans) will be left to the Lunatic Prince a.k.a Satan to destroy.
Are you privy to the entire facts, to the extent of knowing that God's identity is that of a heartless being that is ever-ready to involve Man in his childish games with Satan despite knowing that Man is an amateur? #misyarn?

It isnt childish games. It is about the goodness and love of God. What we are contending with is bigger than Satan. Yes, despite knowing that Man is an amateur and importantly knowing Man will come through a pro, stronger, a conqueror and a better Man

Softwares get (V&V), so Man cant be an exception of that process.
Re: God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. by HellVictorinho(m): 12:22am On Jan 12
MuttleyLaff:
Are you privy to the entire facts, to the extent of knowing that God's identity is that of a heartless being that is ever-ready to involve Man in his childish games with Satan despite knowing that Man is an amateur? #misyarn?

It isnt childish games. It is about the goodness and love of God. What we are contending with is bigger than Satan. Yes, despite knowing that Man is an amateur and importantly knowing Man will come through a pro, stronger, a conqueror and a better Man

Softwares get (V&V), so Man cant be an exception of that process.
If God can be described as good,Satan must be his friend.
Re: God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. by MuttleyLaff: 12:32am On Jan 12
tintingz:
The bolded is "determinism" and not "destiny".
You dont even correctly know what determinism is

tintingz:
Destiny is your whole fate has been programmed before you're born even born, it is like a play.
Please indulge, do you really believe, your every thought, deed, action has been predetermined and programmed before you were even born?

tintingz:
Determinism doesn't have to any meaningful thing.
Knowing you, it depends on what you understand or construe determinism to be

tintingz:
These are just fairytales
Please explain how you mean, humans being gods is fairy tale?

tintingz:
Go back and read your previous response again.
I am the author, dont have to, dont need to, it is still fresh in my mind, it's you who needs to go back yourself, I've noticed you need to put more effort in understanding my bullshits, here is another bullshit, in form of an epiphany disguised in a question:
When you and a computer are outside and it rains, who between you and the computer walks indoor to shield from the rain?
Re: God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. by MuttleyLaff: 12:42am On Jan 12
HellVictorinho:
If God can be described as good, Satan must be His friend.
Do friends slander each other? Do friends curse each other? Do friends speak evil of each other? Need I go on? Need I say more?
Re: God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. by HellVictorinho(m): 12:44am On Jan 12
MuttleyLaff:
Do friends slander each other? Do friends curse each other? Do friends speak evil of each other? Need I go on? Need I say more?
Exactly, it is not possible.
So you shouldn't describe God as a good person.
Re: God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. by MuttleyLaff: 12:49am On Jan 12
HellVictorinho:
Exactly, it is not possible.
So you shouldn't describe God as a good person.
So we agree then, that God and Satan arent friends, unlike how you first remarked that Satan is God's friend with that "... Satan must be His friend" line

Why is God not a good person? What have you seen & found about God that in your limited eyes makes God not be a good person?
Re: God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. by HellVictorinho(m): 1:04am On Jan 12
MuttleyLaff:
So we agree then, that God and Satan arent friends, unlike how you first remarked that Satan is God's friend with that "... Satan must be His friend" line

Why is God not a good person? What have you seen & found about God that in your limited eyes makes God not be a good person?
He has never been good to me-FACT.
Re: God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. by MuttleyLaff: 1:05am On Jan 12
HellVictorinho:
He has never been good to me-FACT.
Give me a list, an inexhaustible one
Re: God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. by HellVictorinho(m): 1:08am On Jan 12
MuttleyLaff:
Give me a list, an inexhaustible one
List of what?
Re: God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. by MuttleyLaff: 1:11am On Jan 12
HellVictorinho:
List of what?
Your "He has never been good to me-FACT" list and make it a large one with ice
Re: God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. by HellVictorinho(m): 1:43am On Jan 12
MuttleyLaff:
Your "He has never been good to me-FACT" list and make it a large one with ice
Alright, when I was born He wasn't there.
When I started school at the age of two,He wasn't there.
Despite my family's -especially my mum's-dedication to Him,I only grew up like every other person in the community.
When I developed an interest in Biblical matters at my pre-adolescent age,I also felt I had discovered something based on what I had read.
Yet,nothing significant happened after my practically deep study of the Bible.
When I got into Secondary School,I became less concerned with the Bible and spirituality as a whole.
And,He was never there either.
It has been quite a long time since I took such matters importantly except for cases where someone convinces me to pray only for nothing significant to happen again.
At the moment, I think praying to a God you think you know is like doing what you think is good for your health.
It is an unadvisable gamble.
There is no super-friend anywhere and reality is a bitch.
Re: God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. by solite3(m): 2:02am On Jan 12
These Atheists are holding on to straw
Re: God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. by solite3(m): 2:05am On Jan 12
Omniscience has nothing to do with free will.
Re: God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. by tintingz(m): 4:41am On Jan 12
MuttleyLaff:
You dont even correctly know what determinism is
Determinism is an action that completely determine by previous existing cause. It's like cause and effect, it has connection and in details, it's a story without no conclusion and meaning.

Destiny on the other hand has to do with fate, something that will necessarily happen in the future, the big picture of your life, it's like a written script with end. There is no connection of events when it comes to destiny, it is a cognitive bias thing. People claim any of their actions has been destined by some hidden power or so, these are just fantasies that are made up without no evidence in details.

I will advise you to look out for definition of destiny, freewill, determinism.

Please indulge, do you really believe, your every thought, deed, action has been predetermined and programmed before you were even born?
According religion especially the Abrahamic religion, God created everything he's all knowing, he knows all your actions before you're born, he has written down your destiny in a book.

For God to create you and give you freewill or destiny which he already know the end of it, he has programmed your life. No matter your choices or freewill you will still fall to that fates God has programmed for you, God has control everything about you, freewill is an illusion in this case.

Define predetermination.

Knowing you, it depends on what you understand or construe determinism to be
What do you understand by determinism?

Please explain how you mean, humans being gods is fairy tale?
Define god and define human. Do they make sense together?

I am the author, dont have to, dont need to, it is still fresh in my mind, it's you who needs to go back yourself, I've noticed you need to put more effort in understanding my bullshits, here is another bullshit, in form of an epiphany disguised in a question:
When you and a computer are outside and it rains, who between you and the computer walks indoor to shield from the rain?
God is perfect, humans are not! If by chance God didn't know my next action and has to wait for me to do something then he's not all knowing.

If you tell me God is not all knowing(omniscient) I will agree.
Re: God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. by XxSabrinaxX(f): 7:51am On Jan 12
solite3:
Omniscience has nothing to do with free will.
Oh really. Mind explaining?
Re: God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. by MuttleyLaff: 7:54am On Jan 12
tintingz:
Determinism is an action that completely determine by previous existing cause. It's like cause and effect, it has connection and in details, it's a story without no conclusion and meaning.

Destiny on the other hand has to do with fate, something that will necessarily happen in the future, the big picture of your life, it's like a written script with end. There is no connection of events when it comes to destiny, it is a cognitive bias thing. People claim any of their actions has been destined by some hidden power or so, these are just fantasies that are made up without no evidence in details.

I will advise you to look out for definition of destiny, freewill, determinism.

According religion especially the Abrahamic religion, God created everything he's all knowing, he knows all your actions before you're born, he has written down your destiny in a book.

For God to create you and give you freewill or destiny which he already know the end of it, he has programmed your life. No matter your choices or freewill you will still fall to that fates God has programmed for you, God has control everything about you, freewill is an illusion in this case.

Define predetermination.

What do you understand by determinism?

Define god and define human. Do they make sense together?
Everyone can see how you prevaricated on each and everyone of the 3 questions I asked you. Why are you being divergent, is it because it's your nature, to veer off on a tangent hmm?

1/ Please indulge, do you really believe, your every thought, deed, action has been predetermined and programmed before you were even born?
2/ Please explain how you mean, humans being gods is fairy tale?
3/ When you and a computer are outside and it rains, who between you and the computer walks indoor to shield from the rain?

That above, reproduced, are the three simple direct and straighforward questions, you failed to answer. Your replies were unsatisfactory, lousy, deviating and without shame never adressed the questions, but here is a golden window of opportunity, for you to now properly and directly answer them, I mean the 3 questions are repeated here for you to redeem your image from first ducking them when earlier asked you.

When you stop prevaricating those 3 questions, I will show you what destiny, freewill, determinism is? As you've admitted that, humans, being gods, doesnt make sense to you, I will also then, reveal to you, why, how, when and where humans became gods. Human and god, in a sentence makes sense together. #IfYouKnowYouKnow. Classic case of if you know, you know and who no know, no go know

tintingz:
God is perfect, humans are not! If by chance God didn't know my next action and has to wait for me to do something then he's not all knowing.

If you tell me God is not all knowing (omniscient) I will agree.
C'mon now tintingz, what sort of warped reasoning is this? There is not a time God is not omniscient. God is not literally or in actual fact waiting for you to do anything, He is just and waiting for you to make your move , just exercise the God given freewill. It is because of God's omniscience that, He has standby response(s), for any of the choice you make.

Things you do, things you say, things you think or thought, have rippling effects and God deals with all of them, all those choices arising from acts of exercising freewill are dealt with
Re: God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. by tintingz(m): 10:32am On Jan 12
MuttleyLaff:
Everyone can see how you prevaricated on each and everyone of the 3 questions I asked you. Why are you being divergent, is it because it's your nature, to veer off on a tangent hmm?

1/ Please indulge, do you really believe, your every thought, deed, action has been predetermined and programmed before you were even born?
2/ Please explain how you mean, humans being gods is fairy tale?
3/ When you and a computer are outside and it rains, who between you and the computer walks indoor to shield from the rain?

That above, reproduced, are the three simple direct and straighforward questions, you failed to answer. Your replies were unsatisfactory, lousy, deviating and without shame never adressed the questions, but here is a golden window of opportunity, for you to now properly and directly answer them, I mean the 3 questions are repeated here for you to redeem your image from first ducking them when earlier asked you.

When you stop prevaricating those 3 questions, I will show you what destiny, freewill, determinism is? As you've admitted that, humans, being gods, doesnt make sense to you, I will also then, reveal to you, why, how, when and where humans became gods. Human and god, in a sentence makes sense together. #IfYouKnowYouKnow. Classic case of if you know, you know and who no know, no go know
You are begin to attack straw man!

- Oga, I don't believe in God you already know my answer, I just gave you religion point of view when it comes to predetermination. Please define predetermination?

- god is a supernatural perfect being with powers, humans are the opposite. What's your point?

- I don't like getting wet, the computer also don't like getting wet, we can both prevent ourselves from getting wet. What's your point?

C'mon now tintingz, what sort of warped reasoning is this? There is not a time God is not omniscient. God is not literally or in actual fact waiting for you to do anything, He is just and waiting for you to make your move , just exercise the God given freewill. It is because of God's omniscience that, He has standby response(s), for any of the choice you make.
What am I saying what are you saying, are they not the same?

You depict God as human, it's only human who are imperfect and not all-knowing that wait to study and learn something.

Things you do, things you say, things you think or thought, have rippling effects and God deals with all of them, all those choices arising from acts of exercising freewill are dealt with
Did God according to you know all of my thoughts, choices, actions before I was born?
Re: God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. by NPComplete: 6:14pm On Jan 12
Akin1212:



You're outrightly stupid.

There! I said it!

OpenYourEyes1 has got to be the biggest fool on Nairaland. The guy is dumber than a butterknife. Unfortunately he is too dumb to realise it.
He will still make a fool of himself tomorrow. Just watch.
Re: God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. by OpenYourEyes1: 6:20pm On Jan 12
NPComplete:


OpenYourEyes1 has got to be the biggest fool on Nairaland. The guy is dumber than a butterknife. Unfortunately he is too dumb to realise it.
He will still make a fool of himself tomorrow. Just watch.

You lack manners my friend. How old are you? 22?
Re: God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. by NPComplete: 6:28pm On Jan 12
OpenYourEyes1:


You lack manners my friend. How old are you? 22?

I am 10 years old, o ancient one. Better to lack manners than to lack a functioning brain. smiley

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Re: God's Omnipotence Contradicts The Requirement For Free Will In God's Plan. by JMAN05: 7:02am On Jan 13
Akin1212:


Lots of you theists really fail to see this flaw and it surprises me always. A God who has ability to do something and does not do it to avoid mistakes is tending towards imperfections. And that's why this flaw will continue to linger on your God. A perfect God will not create something or take an action and later regret it. Never! It boils down to perfection. No one is perfect, nobody is. Not even your imaginary God can be.

He created free moral agents. If your conception of a God is one who creates robots whose scripts are already written, that is not for our heavenly Father. He didn't purpose them for doom, but He is pained that humans have chosen a wrong course and are still inclined to do more harm. That is the reason for the regret. He is not regretting because He created a faulty humans. He did create perfect ones, who has a greater possibility for good. But since they are free moral agents, they chose bad.

Of course if God had wanted to predestine them, these won't happen, problems won't come up, but that would be funny because they would only be acting out a role. It won't be their choice. In fact, that was never Gods goal, to create people ruled by fate. Nope.

We are made in His image. He isn't ruled by fate.

We are talking about the concept of a God, it is very wrong of you to have used an analogy of the ability of humans. We know humans are not perfect and we dont use our abilities always. But a God? Hell no!

A God before creation cannot ignore using his ability to peep into the future of his creations. A God would already know, he doesn't need to look, he would know inherently that this would happen and that would happen even without looking. It's very ridiculous how you people betray intelligence to defend this God.

God would have to predestine things if he wanted to peer through the future of uncreated humans.

It is true we can't measure up to His higher qualities. But we are still made in His image. Such analogy is thus fitting.

Secondly, God himself uses humans as a picture of who He is, His love, care and etc. Eg Ezek 34:12


If God will need to look if his creations will err in the future as against just knowing, then why call him God? Why not just call him human because that's what a human will do.
If Adam and Eve were perfect, they would have obeyed and not disobeyed. Adam and Eve didn't even know what was right or wrong. They would need to eat the fruit before knowing that. Perfect Adam and Eve, would have just sticked to instructions. Disobeying the instructions given to them was a sign of imperfection. So God not using his ability according to your claims was a mistake on his part, because it changed his plans. That's why this thread was created.

Lol. It appears you do have a wrong view of perfection. When I grew up in the churches, I did have such distorted view too. Perfection is perfection. In other words, such person can never make a mistake. Well, the scriptures leaves us with a different definition of perfection.

The bible does not portray a perfect person as one who cannot sin. Such person is perfect in that he doesn't have a sin by creation. No bad inclination. But he is still a free moral agent, who might in his personal choices want to try a route contrary to that of God. That would become sin, and its wages is death. Any who said that a perfect person cannot sin will have to contend with the scripture since its record shows the opposite. Adam was perfect, but he sinned. Satan was perfect, but he sinned. They are all free moral agents. God didn't predestine them. This may be new to you. It was formerly new to me too.

Secondly, Adam knew Gods own standard of what was bad and what was good. God had told them, be caretaker and dominate all I have created, fill the earth with your offsprings, do not eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and bad. Doing this, is what is good, and not doing it, is what is bad. They knew.

Thirdly, not peering to the future isn't a mistake. He was creating perfect free moral agents. Why peer, when he simply can create predestined humans? If you want to create people who will choose whatever they want to do with there life, then you go ahead and create them. And these creation have more possibility to do good than for bad. So why would He worry Himself. Another point is, He had made angels in heaven to be perfect too, and these angels have lived in heaven under Gods rulership for perhaps millions of years. So why be paranoid when creating humans?

Again, will he kill Adam after creating him if he knows he won't choose to obey him and recreate another? Or peer through before creating? That would be predestination since the plan is still in His head.

The thing is, perfect humans with there ability to chose is what God wanted to create, and which He did.


Omniscient is very Total. Very very total. If God is inherently omniscient, then he doesn't even need to look to know. The scriptures are lies. Don't bank on them.

Visit wikipedia on omniscience.

Well, that is a limitation that God does not know tomorrow by default. Then he does not have total knowledge of tomorrow. grin

If God has to decide to use his ability, or as a result of not using his ability he does not know some things, then why call him God? According to you, if God has not used his ability for a particular purpose, then he can be naive on the thing. For example, if God has not looked into my tomorrow, then he does not know my tomorrow. Then why is he called God? Because of his ability? Lmao.

I also have the ability to know economics but I dont know it because I have not read it. Am I also God? grin

Like I did say before, individuals can have a concept of God that appeals to them. You seem to have a different view of what a god should be. That's OK.

What I have learned is, even if God chose to be total omniscient, it won't stop some from attacking Him. Most likely, that won't make you change from disbelief in a God. Or hate Him. In fact, you will RIGHTLY do so, since he had made you so that you will become an atheist. Since you will be acting out a script.

That does not define my God. And I love Him for that. At least, someone who commits immorality won't say God predestined him that way. Nope, he would be responsible for his own fate. That's sweet if you ask me!

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