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Stats: 2,163,713 members, 4,714,628 topics. Date: Wednesday, 23 January 2019 at 06:52 PM
|Re: How Was The Black African Saved Before Christ - Discussion by Ihedinobi3: 2:50pm On Jan 10|
Originakalokalo:The verse did not say, "...the gospel was preached to those who are dead after they had died...". It only said that the gospel was preached to those who were (at the point of writing) now dead.
That verse is a good answer to the question that frosbel asked since it clearly states that throughout history, the gospel has always been preached to everyone who wanted to hear it. No dead human being has any excuse because the gospel was preached to everyone who was willing to hear it while they lived. Those who were not had already rejected it out of hand. Therefore, nobody who is now dead can escape Judgment on the basis of the idea that, for example, Jesus did not come before they died, or, for another example, that Jerusalem was too far away from them.
Throughout the Bible it is demonstrated that God had His Truth taken everywhere that people were willing to listen to it and be saved. We see that in the examples of prophets like Jonah who went to Nineveh, Isaiah and Jeremiah who prophesied (even sending letters to foreign kings) to foreign nations. Then, consider that with the Exile, believing Jews and prophets too like Daniel and Ezekiel were dispersed across the world. Daniel, in particular, was why there were "wise men from the East" centuries later who came looking for the Messiah. Each of these believers took the Truth with them wherever they went.
So, the dead had the Gospel preached to them while they lived, NOT after they had died.
|Re: How Was The Black African Saved Before Christ - Discussion by Originakalokalo(m): 2:54pm On Jan 10|
Somewhere around 50-70AD, Philip preached to an Ethiopian Eunuch.... As early as that.....
That's approximately 2000 years ago....
Ethiopia as we know is in Africa. Nigeria was not existing at that time. ...a lot of countries are not existing
There was no Africa as a continent at that time...
....however, people were descendants of those early nations such as .Rome, Syria, Greece, Egypt, Ethiopia, Israel etc.
Population growth got us where we are.
So, if an Ethiopian eunuch got to know about Jesus as early as that,
my great great and greatest grandfather heard about Jesus. ....
If they refused to believe in him,
They go to hell.
If you are alive now, you have heard the gospel.
If you believe you are saved.
If you die in sin, and unbelieve, you go to hell..
(John 3 )
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
|Re: How Was The Black African Saved Before Christ - Discussion by Originakalokalo(m): 3:00pm On Jan 10|
What's the gospel?
People who were before Jesus never heard the gospel..
I had concluded that issue anyway... Read the commentaries on that verse...non suggested what you are implying.
We don't have answers to all questions, neither do we understand all mysteries.
|Re: How Was The Black African Saved Before Christ - Discussion by Ihedinobi3: 3:05pm On Jan 10|
Originakalokalo, I should add that at first when I saw your post I was thinking of 1 Peter 3:19. But even so, it was relevant since it is really the only place that anyone who wanted to mislead believers would lay hold upon to teach that it is possible to be saved after death, not even 1 Peter 4:6.
|Re: How Was The Black African Saved Before Christ - Discussion by Ihedinobi3: 3:17pm On Jan 10|
Originakalokalo:In fact, the whole point of 1 Peter 4:6 was to declare without mincing words that those who are dead have no excuse since nobody has ever lived who was denied the Gospel.
Before the Cross, the Gospel was that God would send a Savior. If you believed in God's Promised Savior, you were saved. If you didn't, you were condemned.
After the Cross, the Gospel is that God has sent a Savior, Jesus Christ the Son of God. Believing in Him saves you, not believing in Him condemns you.
Faith in God's Substitute was first demonstrated by Adam and Eve when they accepted the coats of animal skin that the Lord gave to them in Genesis 3:21. The skin came from the bloody death of an animal that symbolized the later sacrifice of Jesus Christ. That was the first animal sacrifice and all animal sacrifices that followed, like Abel's not much later, was a proclamation of Faith in the Lamb of God.
As for commentaries, in my experience, they are usually either unreliable or not sufficient in explanation.
Regarding mysteries, it is true that we cannot learn it all in the flesh since we can only see in part in this corrupt flesh (1 Cor 13:9, 12) but we are still responsible to do everything possible to learn all of God's Truth (John 16:13).
|Re: How Was The Black African Saved Before Christ - Discussion by Originakalokalo(m): 3:33pm On Jan 10|
Your answer is a theory, just as commentaries cannot be entirely sufficient on mysteries like this one.
I can say that God will decide the judgement criteria for those without access to the blood of Jesus ...those who never knew Yahweh before Jesus came...
This too, is a theory.
After Jesus, everyone who has heard have no excuse as stated by Jesus himself....This one is not a theory...Jesus was clear on this.
Our understanding of mysteries shall be full.....
|Re: How Was The Black African Saved Before Christ - Discussion by LordReed(m): 3:41pm On Jan 10|
Yahweh the bloodthirsty. Asked Abraham kill your son then latter says o I'm just playing. LoL.
|Re: How Was The Black African Saved Before Christ - Discussion by frosbel2(m): 3:41pm On Jan 10|
Did you Read this Christianity was brought to Sub-Saharan Africa with the arrival of the Portuguese in the 15th century
It talked about ONE Ethiopian Eunuch who came to JERUSALEM ; where in the bible is there mention of several Ethiopians getting saved ? Besides , according to this Article Christianity actually reached Ethiopia itself in 341 AD and not all of its people were reached. So that is three centuries after the resurrection of Christ. Why did it take that long.
Most of Sub-Saharan Africa however were reached in the 15th century, millennia after the resurrection of Christ.
You are not making sense. Calm down, research, think and then reply.
|Re: How Was The Black African Saved Before Christ - Discussion by Ihedinobi3: 3:46pm On Jan 10|
Originakalokalo:As I always say, I do not say what I say to be believed. It really makes no difference to me whether you believe me or you don't. What matters to me is that I bear accurate witness to the Truth. So, if you call what I have said a theory merely because you reject it, it won't become a theory for all that. It will remain true regardless. If you believe it, it is YOU who will benefit. My own benefit comes from teaching accurately not from being believed.
|Re: How Was The Black African Saved Before Christ - Discussion by Originakalokalo(m): 3:59pm On Jan 10|
My Bible tells me that the Ethiopia eunuch got baptized... he would share the gospel with his people.
Your link says that Ethiopia heard about Christ in 341AD....
That's useless as far as I am concerned.
Your link is yours and my Bible is mine.
Go and read my reply gain and come back for discussion.
Bring your argument on every statement I made... while I give you my conclusions from the bible.
If you are not ready to do that, I am not interested in arguing with you.
|Re: How Was The Black African Saved Before Christ - Discussion by Originakalokalo(m): 4:20pm On Jan 10|
You agree that commentaries are not sometimes full and insufficient... These are commentaries from more than seven Bible scholars like Mathew Henry and Co.
But you would not agree that the answer you provided is a theory....I don't have any issue with this....
Let me quickly show you why I tag your reply as a theory.
1. The word gospel never occur in the Old Testament. ...
2. The knowledge that a saviour would come to the world was made available to the Jew's...
Pagans or idolaters who were not Jews did not expect any saviour...
3. Some jews believed that a saviour would come and yet did all manner of wickedness... Manasseh, a king of Judah is an example.
So, knowing that a saviour is coming or believing is not a valid criteria for judgement.
God, a righteous judge, will decide what to do everyone who had no access to Jesus sacrifice...
He is not a respecter of persons.
But as for us all, who are reading this comment,
It is either you accept Jesus and be saved or reject him and be condemned .
|Re: How Was The Black African Saved Before Christ - Discussion by frosbel2(m): 4:35pm On Jan 10|
[quote author=Originakalokalo post=74632331]
Assumption is the mother of all f.......
Your link says that Ethiopia heard about Christ in 341AD....
Of course the man made bible based on Jewish scripture and cobbled together by WHITE SINNERS is the basis for your TRUTH -
With this mindset you will forever be intertwined in the viscous cycle of made up fables, myths and nonsense.
Go and read my reply gain and come back for discussion.
The Inerrant Bible
Did you know that all the prophecies of Jesus in the gospels are based on LIES, fraud, fabrications and MYTH. Of course you wouldn't know because all your truth is based on this book.
|Re: How Was The Black African Saved Before Christ - Discussion by Originakalokalo(m): 4:48pm On Jan 10|
[quote author=frosbel2 post=74633479][/quote]
This is not what I asked you to do.
|Re: How Was The Black African Saved Before Christ - Discussion by Ihedinobi3: 5:07pm On Jan 10|
Originakalokalo:I did not agree. I asserted.
Scholarship is a very good thing...in the right hands...but it does not make anyone a Bible teacher. You need the spiritual gift of pastor-teacher to have a shot at becoming a Bible teacher. Proper scholarship only supplies useful tools for such a gifted person. Also, proper scholarship should only follow spiritual growth.
So, scholarship without the pastor-teacher spiritual gift and proper tutelage in the Truth by another gifted and qualified pastor-teacher will only result in error and confusion. Where it does not, it will certainly result in insufficient explanations.
That is why there are so few meaningful commentaries out there.
But I am pretty sure of my own answer since the Bible bears it out on every page.
Originakalokalo:Not a good argument, generally speaking. The word "Trinity" does not occur in the Bible at all. Does that make that doctrine a theory?
Originakalokalo:Nobody was a Jew until Abraham (Genesis 12:2; 14:13). But the very first prophecy of the Coming Messiah was given to Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:15). Abel is in the hall of Faith in Hebrews 11. He too was not a Jew. Nor was Enoch. Nor, in fact, was Balaam:
"I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near; A star shall come forth from Jacob, A scepter shall rise from Israel, And shall crush through the forehead of Moab, And tear down all the sons of Sheth.
"One from Jacob shall have dominion, And will destroy the remnant from the city."
Numbers 24:17,19 NASB
Originakalokalo:Many hear today that the Son of God, Jesus Christ has died for them and still do all manner of wickedness. Does that render the Gospel an invalid criterion for judgment?
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:16,18 NASB
Originakalokalo:There has never been a single human being who lacked access to God's Sacrifice.
|Re: How Was The Black African Saved Before Christ - Discussion by Originakalokalo(m): 5:11pm On Jan 10|
|Re: How Was The Black African Saved Before Christ - Discussion by Boss13: 5:52pm On Jan 10|
I think you’re just plainly confrontational. Read again what I wrote. You cannot discredit Jesus, whether you feel his existence maybe Real or not. He still serves as a reference point to religious and spiritual matters. Also, what I have come to understand is that if you are truly convince that something is real and exist - then that thing takes form. Hence, our ancestors were never wrong in their beliefs and practices because that it what they believed and it worked for them. The Creator exist in all and is present in all.
|Re: How Was The Black African Saved Before Christ - Discussion by frosbel2(m): 6:03pm On Jan 10|
But who is this Jesus ? This is the Jesus who our ancestors NEVER knew about until a few hundred years ago and he was introduced through slavery and colonialism.
How is he even relevant to Africans ??
|Re: How Was The Black African Saved Before Christ - Discussion by Hermes019: 6:17pm On Jan 10|
Bingo!! Taxi driver
|Re: How Was The Black African Saved Before Christ - Discussion by Hermes019: 6:24pm On Jan 10|
Op if you ask 10 christians this question they will give you different answers as you can see with Ihedinobi,Mutteylaff,Shemuel and Kalokalo,I wonder what Albaghadi would say,anyways I'm here just to read comments
P.S mutteylaff so you are a Robert De Niro fan ?
|Re: How Was The Black African Saved Before Christ - Discussion by frosbel2(m): 7:52pm On Jan 10|
I am still not satisfied with the answers so far ;
It took thousands of years to reveal a truth that was vital to the redemption of man , a truth that was spread not by love or faith but by brutal savagery, by the sword and spilling blood.
A truth that ushered in the dark ages of superstition into Europe and that stifled scientific debate and stunted human progress. It was only when this truth began to lose its power that the human race began to move into the Industrial age. This truth forced conversions upon millions of people under the pain of death , using the instruments of fear and exploitation.
This is the truth that many people now say is our means of salvation.
- Christ can no longer heal cripples and disabled people - yet they say he is all power and almighty
- Chris cannot alleviate the burdens of men and yet they say he is a saviour
- If he is indeed a saviour and he cannot save from the physical how can he save from the eternal.
- Christ cannot unity his chaotic church
|Re: How Was The Black African Saved Before Christ - Discussion by Originakalokalo(m): 7:58pm On Jan 10|
The believe of Trinity and the gospel of Jesus are the foundations of Christianity and are valid.... These are everywhere in the Bible.
You shouldn't have related these two principles to your theory...
When I saw that in your reply,
I knew we were done with the discussion.
|Re: How Was The Black African Saved Before Christ - Discussion by frosbel2(m): 8:07pm On Jan 10|
Hello my PAGAN friend
Read about the Pagan origins of the Trinity
|Re: How Was The Black African Saved Before Christ - Discussion by Originakalokalo(m): 9:42pm On Jan 10|
I can school you on the concept of Trinity if you want..
It is all there.
My Father believed in Jesus.... Served him, believed in Trinity and the sonship of Jesus...
He rests with the Lord as we speak...
His call to come home to rest was revealed to me by Jesus. ..4 months before it took place.
I was told, "He will be called home to rest.... don't bother to pray.... It is time"
All these played out as I was foretold.
It was a life changing experience that I will never forget.
I have had other revelations....interesting ones..
Jesus is Lord... and savour and my advocate.
The whole hell and everyone in it cannot convince me otherwise.
When I stand stubborn and rigid, you guys should know that I have had some serious experiences serving Jesus.
You won't know nor understand the depth.
Accept Jesus and be converted.
Tomorrow may be too late.
|Re: How Was The Black African Saved Before Christ - Discussion by Ihedinobi3: 9:46pm On Jan 10|
Originakalokalo:I do make a difference when I discuss with fellow believers but being a believer does not exempt anyone from actually facing truths that they may not like.
It is unimportant to me what you prefer to call what I said and it certainly is not my business what you decide to believe. These things are up to you. But if you can pick and choose what to believe from the Bible with no consistency whatsoever, that is a serious problem for you. You will accept one doctrine as true in spite of the fact that its theological name is not present in the Bible at all and reject another because a theological name is lacking in a part of the Bible? And you think that this is honest?
I only bothered to make an input in this conversation because MuttleyLaff quoted me and I may be misconstrued as sharing his position. Otherwise, you already present yourself as a teacher so you are responsible to be true to the Bible in what you teach. I certainly have no right to tell you what to teach. If you teach falsehood, it will be to yours and to your listeners' hurt. If you teach Truth, it will be to yours and their gain. As much as I love all God's children, I can't tell any teacher what they must teach and any disciple who they must follow.
Having said that, I was content to leave the conversation when you ended it. If you actually want to discuss this, then you will have to learn to reason with me rather than dictate to me. It is not your place to do the latter.
|Re: How Was The Black African Saved Before Christ - Discussion by MuttleyLaff: 8:39am On Jan 11|
Ihedinobi3:Ihedinobi3, with the utmost respect to you, please, as a matter of urgency, reply to the following:
1/ Are you able to produce where and when I said "after death it is still possible to be saved if one was not saved during their lifetime"?
2/ If you are unable to do, which I am sure you wouldnt be able to, will you please admit it as an allegation and retract it?
3/ 9“As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His clothing was white as snow, and the hair of His head like pure wool;
His throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire.
10A stream of fire issued and came out from before Him;
a thousand thousands served Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand
stood before Him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened
- Daniel 7:9-10
Why couldnt and/or wouldnt you ask for explanation or clarifications on what I wrote about, concerning the access to & offer of free legal aid in?
4/ Do you accept and agree, that after death and the appointed time, there will be a court hearing at all?
5/ Do you accept and agree, that, in judicial proceedings, that could end up taking away one's life or liberty, the due process of law, is a principle that a person cannot be denied the opportunity to appropriate legal procedures and safeguards nor be deprived of access to competent legal representation?
6/ Do you think Christophobics or Christ destructionists, really would take avail of God's free legal aid?
7/ Even though this was when he was still alive, do you see King Agrippa, as a very good case in point of #6 above?
8/ Do you agree and accept, that God's free legal aid though it will be given the cold-shoulder by Christophobics or Christ destructionists, is as it were, fulfilling all righteousness?
9/ Do you accept and agree that Jesus Christ is the best Lawyer, (SAN) Senior Advocate Numero Uno anyone can have to represent them?
10/ Do you agree and accept that Christophobics or Christ destructionists just like every one else is entitled to have access to and be represented by a Good Lawyer?
11/ Do you believe your great great grandfather had the opportunity of the knowledge of Jesus Christ and the Gospel preached to?
Ihedinobi3:"And inasmuch as it is apportioned to men to die once, and after this, judgment"
- Hebrews 9:27
Ihedinobi3, dont mind Originakalokalo, he was just going about snorting, huffing and puffing, as if like a garage bus conductor tout doing gra-gra and turning the bible on its head with his nauseating prooftexts. Did you notice how he prevaricated replying to my two simple questions exactly the way I asked them? I asked him specifically, about the fate of his great great grandfather, which is like roughly around 160 years ago, as in a 4 generations period but he beat around the bush with an utterly absurd or ridiculous reply that "... if an Ethiopian eunuch got to know about Jesus as early as that, my great great and greatest grandfather heard about Jesus. ....If they refused to believe in him. They go to hell. If you are alive now, you have heard the gospel. If you believe you are saved. If you die in sin, and unbelieve, you go to hell..". SMH. Who asked him about his "... great great and greatest grandfather". Would believe and somebody liked the chucklesome remark.
I was so pleased Ihedinobi3, seeing and read you mentioning Hebrews 9:27 in your post above, and that's why I have quoted and pasted it above
Now I am going to ask you the same questions I previously asked Originakalokalo which he found a way of not answering, they are slightly edited though
1/ What is the fate of your great great grandfather, who never had the opportunity of the knowledge of Jesus Christ and the Gospel preached?
2/ Since your great great grandfather wasnt preached to, in the grave to by Jesus, does he have or not have the right of access to the best legal aid available, free or not?
Ihedinobi3:Conventional wisdom, has it that, if you have a candle you don't put it under the table but above so that it can shine light. In light of the 11 questions above, are you sure you understand what MuttleyLaff's position is that you dont want miscontrued you share?
Hermes019:The light of MuttleyLaff's candle can be more noticed in and on the area of darkness he typed about and it cannot be compared with Ihedinobi3's candle, if Ihedinobi3 has his candle placed in an already lit up area and/or so far lighted place
De Niro is G&T
Ihedinobi3:What Originakalokalo doesnt know, is that, blowing out someone else's candle, doesn't make his candle shine any brighter. "Ọrọ niyẹn ooo"
loosely translated means "word piece of advice"
cc Hermes019, frosbel2, Ranchhoddas
|Re: How Was The Black African Saved Before Christ - Discussion by Ranchhoddas(m): 9:20am On Jan 11|
MuttleyLaff:Why would anyone choose the dark abyss if it's obvious that Jesus offers a direct line to utopia?
Are you making stuff up?
|Re: How Was The Black African Saved Before Christ - Discussion by MuttleyLaff: 9:26am On Jan 11|
Ranchhoddas:Do you believe in Jesus as Lord and Saviour Ranchhoddas?
If you dont now, you wouldnt even after death and when in court facing God in judgement, even to have Jesus represent you will be an anathema
I can give you examples of two people whilst alive and the other after death, who still refused to personally acknowledge Jesus as Lord and Saviour
cc Hermes019, frosbel2, Ihedinobi3
|Re: How Was The Black African Saved Before Christ - Discussion by Ranchhoddas(m): 9:26am On Jan 11|
I could have sworn that you said that Muttleylaff -- "it is possible to be saved even after death".
|Re: How Was The Black African Saved Before Christ - Discussion by MuttleyLaff: 9:28am On Jan 11|
Ranchhoddas:Possible, but you wouldnt because of your nature, it allow or make "possible" happen
|Re: How Was The Black African Saved Before Christ - Discussion by Ranchhoddas(m): 9:31am On Jan 11|
Which examples can you possibly give?
My lack of belief comes from the fact that the facts do not add up. Anyone would accept Jesus if they were CONVINCED.
If I saw Jesus and probably took a peek at the Pearly Gates, why would I not accept Him?
|Re: How Was The Black African Saved Before Christ - Discussion by Ranchhoddas(m): 9:38am On Jan 11|
MuttleyLaff:What do you mean by my nature?
Is my nature different from yours? I don't accept Jesus for the same reason I don't accept Mohammed, Krishna, or any of the other Messiahs the world had witnessed. None has been able to prove their authenticity beyond reasonable doubt. Even Jews who had Jesus do not accept him.
Is my doubt unreasonable?
|Re: How Was The Black African Saved Before Christ - Discussion by MuttleyLaff: 9:49am On Jan 11|
Ranchhoddas:Not hearsay, but biblical examples written in black and white and also red and white.
Trust me if you dont now and/or before you move on, you will never and wont ever accept Him, it's your nature, your nature will fight against that
Ranchhoddas:Exactly and it is because you're by nature a Christophobic or Christ destructionist.
It is because of that doubt that possible has difficulting with in happening. You'll rather go to the dark abyss and lake of fire that personally acknowledge Jesus as Lord and Saviour. You wont take advantage of the free legal aid and have Him advocate for you. Wont have Him represent you and make pleadings on your behalf, as per the circumstances for your every thought, deed and action. You'll rather represent yourself instead of have Him mitigate for you.
cc Hermes019, frosbel2, Ihedinobi3
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