JujuSugar:
Pick up a shoe.....
Can you observe it with any OR all of your 5 senses? If you can, you are able to have as much certainty of this fact as anything else in the world. You'll never see two people debating the existence of shoes. That would be an exercise in stupidity.....
In contrast, the existence of a god is much less certain. Many reasonable and intelligent people become atheists and arguments for God's existence always have reasonable counter arguments. "Experiences" of God can be hard to distinguish from mere psychological or sociological effects.....
So the state of humanity is thus: we find ourselves in a world with an epistemological framework such that we are far more likely to know that a pencil exists than that God exists!
Having established all this, here is my question....
Now, if God really does exist and wants a relationship with us -- and if this relationship is the single most important thing to "get right" -- then why would God not give us more epistemic access to his own existence … than that of a shoe??. Doesn't this seem incompatible with the existence of a god who wants to have a relationship with us?
Cc. Budaatum, LordReed

I didn't notice the question here the first time I read this post when you made it. I probably skimmed the beginning and decided not to waste my time on an antichristian rant.

To begin with, very little that anyone believes (whether they are atheist or theist) is verifiable through the witness of our five senses. That is why the premise of your question is false. The reason that human beings debate all sorts of things is that there is always some question or other in them, and we debate nearly everything.

You believe that emotions, thoughts and memories exist, for example, but what is the proof? Do you see, hear, taste, smell or touch any of them? Obviously not. When we listen to Alexa or Siri, we don't assume that there is any thinking producing their words. We know that that is merely the result of algorithms. Thus, the sound of words spoken by a human being, while indeed proof of thought, is really not the kind of proof you are asking for since through those words, you do not see thoughts or hear or feel or taste or smell them. This is exactly the same with emotions and memories.

Beyond that, much that we believe is believed because we trust the person who told us about them. I've never seen America but I believe it exists. All the evidence I have is in books, TV and pictures. To accept this evidence, I have to trust the people who make them.

This is precisely why insanity is possible. The very definition of insanity is a denial of what is real or the adoption of what is imaginary as real either because one rejects reasonable evidence or because one receives doubtful evidence or non-evidence as evidence. This can be willful leading to what we call delusions. Or else it is the result of damage to the brain either inflicted or inherited.

Now, when the issue is about God, what you are failing to account for is the potency of the Reality of God. God is Ultimate Reality. In other words, there is nothing as real as God is. When God shows Himself without any shielding to preserve Creation, every creature ability to resist Him melts away. Nothing exists which is capable of resisting God's Will. That is why in order to allow men to make a true choice about Him, God shields them from that revelation of Himself that makes it impossible for them to do anything but submit to Him. That is, He lets men today have the choice to deny His Reality and Power.

Creature free will is a true ability to choose to believe in God and submit to Him in Christ Jesus or to reject faith in Him. In addition, for this ability to actually be exercised, there must be alternative things to believe about God. This is why we can create fictions like atheism and false religions and philosophies that allow us to believe whatever we choose apart from the Truth.

For anyone willing at all to believe, creation all around us and our own selves are a strong testimony to the Existence of God. In fact, if one is willing to be honest at all, it is impossible to deny the existence of God or of His Identity. But we can choose to be dishonest and work up all manner of rationalizations to back up our dishonesty. This is possible in all sorts of situations, after all; it is even more so in questions of Faith.

Ihedinobi3:



Now, when the issue is about God, what you are failing to account for is the potency of the Reality of God. God is Ultimate Reality. In other words, there is nothing as real as God is. When God shows Himself without any shielding to preserve Creation, every creature ability to resist Him melts away. Nothing exists which is capable of resisting God's Will. That is why in order to allow men to make a true choice about Him, God shields them from that revelation of Himself that makes it impossible for them to do anything but submit to Him. That is, He lets men today have the choice to deny His Reality and Power.

Creature free will is a true ability to choose to believe in God and submit to Him in Christ Jesus or to reject faith in Him. In addition, for this ability to actually be exercised, there must be alternative things to believe about God. This is why we can create fictions like atheism and false religions and philosophies that allow us to believe whatever we choose apart from the Truth.

Yet according to your tales the devil still chose itself over the god despite being in the very presence of the god. This your excuse for why the god will not show itself is a gigantic cop out.

LordReed:


Yet according to your tales the devil still chose itself over the god despite being in the very presence of the god. This your excuse for why the god will not show itself is a gigantic cop out.

Angels had a free will as well. In fact, that was why man was created: to replace those angels who used their free will to rebel.

As for being in the presence of God, so were Adam and Eve. Free will made and makes it possible for both angels and men to deny the Truth that is right before them.

After we have been tested, we will see God as He is and that will end all creature rebellion.

Ihedinobi3:

Angels had a free will as well. In fact, that was why man was created: to replace those angels who used their free will to rebel.

As for being in the presence of God, so were Adam and Eve. Free will made and makes it possible for both angels and men to deny the Truth that is right before them.

After we have been tested, we will see God as He is and that will end all creature rebellion.

You just gave any excuse for the god that it does not show itself because it will interference with our free will then turn around to assert the opposite?

LordReed:


You just gave any excuse for the god that it does not show itself because it will interference with our free will then turn around to assert the opposite?

What exactly are you complaining about now?

What am I asserting opposite to what I said before?

Ihedinobi3:

What exactly are you complaining about now?

What am I asserting opposite to what I said before?

You:

Ihedinobi3:


Now, when the issue is about God, what you are failing to account for is the potency of the Reality of God. God is Ultimate Reality. In other words, there is nothing as real as God is. When God shows Himself without any shielding to preserve Creation, every creature ability to resist Him melts away. Nothing exists which is capable of resisting God's Will. That is why in order to allow men to make a true choice about Him, God shields them from that revelation of Himself that makes it impossible for them to do anything but submit to Him. That is, He lets men today have the choice to deny His Reality and Power.

Creature free will is a true ability to choose to believe in God and submit to Him in Christ Jesus or to reject faith in Him. In addition, for this ability to actually be exercised, there must be alternative things to believe about God. This is why we can create fictions like atheism and false religions and philosophies that allow us to believe whatever we choose apart from the Truth.

Implying that the god doesn't show itself because it compromises free will but go on to contradict yourself with:

Ihedinobi3:

Angels had a free will as well. In fact, that was why man was created: to replace those angels who used their free will to rebel.

As for being in the presence of God, so were Adam and Eve. Free will made and makes it possible for both angels and men to deny the Truth that is right before them.

After we have been tested, we will see God as He is and that will end all creature rebellion.

So people can see the god and still exercise free will or they can't which is it?

LordReed:


You:



Implying that the god doesn't show itself because it compromises free will but go on to contradict yourself with:



So people can see the god and still exercise free will or they can't which is it?

I think you probably ignored what I actually said for some pet notion in your head.

As I actually said,

"when God shows Himself without any shielding to preserve Creation, every creature ability to resist Him melts away."

Ihedinobi3:

I think you probably ignored what I actually said for some pet notion in your head.

As I actually said,

"when God shows Himself without any shielding to preserve Creation, every creature ability to resist Him melts away."

Where has the god done this before?

LordReed:


Where has the god done this before?

If you are asking where He has shown Himself in Creation without any shielding or covering (and I cannot see how you segued into that question), He has not. That is why we are still here making choices.

At the Second Advent, though, the Lord Jesus will unveil His Glory in the eyes of the armies gathered around Jerusalem and destroying it. That is what will end the Reign of the Antichrist and the antagonism of all his worshippers at that time.

Also, at the Judgment of the Great White Throne, the Irresistible Glory of God will also be made manifest so that not a single mouth can still oppose His Wisdom or a single knee refrain from bowing to Him. That Judgment will end every last trace of rebellion left in all Creation. Those who are thrown into the Lake of Fire after that Judgment will not go defiantly. Their regret to have opposed the Lord God will be eternal. There will be no more pride or arrogance in any of them. The ability to resist God in any way at all will have been perfectly extinguished.

Ihedinobi3:

If you are asking where He has shown Himself in Creation without any shielding or covering (and I cannot see how you segued into that question), He has not. That is why we are still here making choices.

At the Second Advent, though, the Lord Jesus will unveil His Glory in the eyes of the armies gathered around Jerusalem and destroying it. That is what will end the Reign of the Antichrist and the antagonism of all his worshippers at that time.

Also, at the Judgment of the Great White Throne, the Irresistible Glory of God will also be made manifest so that not a single mouth can still oppose His Wisdom or a single knee refrain from bowing to Him. That Judgment will end every last trace of rebellion left in all Creation. Those who are thrown into the Lake of Fire after that Judgment will not go defiantly. Their regret to have opposed the Lord God will be eternal. There will be no more pride or arrogance in any of them. The ability to resist God in any way at all will have been perfectly extinguished.

The reason for the question is, you have no example of this happening but you offer it up as a reason why the god does not show itself but yet you say other people have been with the god and made choices. What is the point of bringing it up then?

LordReed:


The reason for the question is, you have no example of this happening but you offer it up as a reason why the god does not show itself but yet you say other people have been with the god and made choices. What is the point of bringing it up then?

I think it is clear that you understand perfectly what I said.

The point of bringing it up obviously is that no one has ever seen God fully unveiled. God is a God Who hides Himself (Isaiah 45:15). Everyone who was granted the privilege of a theophany was shielded from the full Reality of God so that they could completely deny what they had seen. Their free will remained intact.

If God had made Himself fully manifest, it would destroy every creature ability to resist Him (Isaiah 45:23-24; Revelation 6:16-17). That would negate free will.

So, what you and others like you demand is that God submit to you and fulfill your own conditions before you grant Him any respect as God. It is madness, of course. He will never bow to you. He has given you both the ability and the opportunity to choose what you will receive at His Hand. Because He is God and you are not. He has preserved that ability by keeping you from seeing Him so that the terror of His Power does not strip you of all choice. You can decide to try to turn His Generosity against Him, but in the end, it is you who will regret it in indescribable eternal torment.

It doesn't matter what you choose to believe here. The Truth won't change to suit you. You are not that powerful.

Ihedinobi3:

I think it is clear that you understand perfectly what I said.

The point of bringing it up obviously is that no one has ever seen God fully unveiled. God is a God Who hides Himself (Isaiah 45:15). Everyone who was granted the privilege of a theophany was shielded from the full Reality of God so that they could completely deny what they had seen. Their free will remained intact.

If God had made Himself fully manifest, it would destroy every creature ability to resist Him (Isaiah 45:23-24; Revelation 6:16-17). That would negate free will.

So, what you and others like you demand is that God submit to you and fulfill your own conditions before you grant Him any respect as God. It is madness, of course. He will never bow to you. He has given you both the ability and the opportunity to choose what you will receive at His Hand. Because He is God and you are not. He has preserved that ability by keeping you from seeing Him so that the terror of His Power does not strip you of all choice. You can decide to try to turn His Generosity against Him, but in the end, it is you who will regret it in indescribable eternal torment.

It doesn't matter what you choose to believe here. The Truth won't change to suit you. You are not that powerful.

@Bolded
But the scriptures deny free will in Romans 9 (see below). Any conception of free will you have thereafter, you would need to redefine to understand. God's plan is written all over the holy text. How, then, could we choose anything? Where there is a will, there is a way, no? Perhaps the concept of 'fate' is done away with by God, and you are free to choose anything you wish in the grand scheme of things? Perhaps the context we are given here on Earth is made smaller by the grand reality? The scriptures are not a be all, end all interpretation of things by the way. It may be God's word, but a human hand had a part in transcribing it, you will note.


17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
PS: Expect a reply soon in the other thread

Ihedinobi3:

I think it is clear that you understand perfectly what I said.

The point of bringing it up obviously is that no one has ever seen God fully unveiled. God is a God Who hides Himself (Isaiah 45:15). Everyone who was granted the privilege of a theophany was shielded from the full Reality of God so that they could completely deny what they had seen. Their free will remained intact.

If God had made Himself fully manifest, it would destroy every creature ability to resist Him (Isaiah 45:23-24; Revelation 6:16-17). That would negate free will.

So, what you and others like you demand is that God submit to you and fulfill your own conditions before you grant Him any respect as God. It is madness, of course. He will never bow to you. He has given you both the ability and the opportunity to choose what you will receive at His Hand. Because He is God and you are not. He has preserved that ability by keeping you from seeing Him so that the terror of His Power does not strip you of all choice. You can decide to try to turn His Generosity against Him, but in the end, it is you who will regret it in indescribable eternal torment.

It doesn't matter what you choose to believe here. The Truth won't change to suit you. You are not that powerful.

LMFAO! If the devil who was in the god's presence could choose something different why is it now such a hard thing for the god to reveal itself? No instead you provide a cop out. LMFAO!

IAmSabrina:

@Bolded
But the scriptures deny free will in Romans 9 (see below). Any conception of free will you have thereafter, you would need to redefine to understand. God's plan is written all over the holy text. How, then, could we choose anything? Where there is a will, there is a way, no? Perhaps the concept of 'fate' is done away with by God, and you are free to choose anything you wish in the grand scheme of things? Perhaps the context we are given here on Earth is made smaller by the grand reality? The scriptures are not a be all, end all interpretation of things by the way. It may be God's word, but a human hand had a part in transcribing it, you will note.


17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
PS: Expect a reply soon in the other thread

I already explained this to you elsewhere:

Christianity does not hold the philosophical position of Determinism. It holds Predestination.

In that latter, God creates the Universe along with different possible ways it could exist. That is, once moral creatures came into existence, God created multiple possibilities for how the Universe will be depending on the choices they made. In fact, these possibilities are the options from which each individual moral creature must choose. If they decide to submit to Him, then the Universe "looks" a certain way in response to that choice. If they choose to rebel, then it looks another.

However, even though these multiple possibilities are absolutely genuine and real, God knows precisely how each moral creature will choose and therefore designs the Universe leading up to that choice in a way to make that choice actually possible. If He did not, the creature in question would be forced to make a choice they really didn't want to.

It should be obvious how this is completely different from Determinism. Although moral creatures cannot make a choice unless God decrees that choice so that it is fixed in creature history, no moral creature has ever been forced to make a choice that they didn't want to make. The options they have are absolutely real. As easily as one moral creature chooses to submit to God, they could also choose to rebel and vice versa. It is their true choice which God decrees, not an arbitrary path chosen for them completely independent of their true desires.
- Ihedinobi3 (https://www.nairaland.com/4955808/ten-questions-christians/16#74971920)

Romans 9 affirms that our free will is empowered by God's Decree. It wouldn't function otherwise. We choose what we choose because God decreed that we would choose it since He knew before creating us that it is what we would want to choose once we received life from Him. The freedom of our will is perfectly real and true.

As for God's Plan, He is the Designer and Builder of all Existence. Our free will choices were accounted for in His Plan. Because He knew what we would want to choose, He designed existence to run in such a way that we will all make the choices we want to make while definitely working everything together to lead to the End that He Himself wants. This is just a matter of His Own Sovereignty over all things. Our free will is only limited to the options that He Himself presents us with. It is not a Sovereign Will as His is. So, we can only choose from among the options we are given by Him which options are part of His larger eternal plan.

Regarding the Reliability of the Scriptures, I know no reason to doubt them. Men did write them but these were believers who submitted to God in their human weakness. The Lord God is perfectly able to override that weakness in order to produce through such willing servants a perfect work. That was exactly what happened. As a result, the Bible is perfectly accurate. The copies and translations that exist today are obviously not inspired so they all contain some errors but because of the nature of the Word of God, any diligent student or seeker can get through those errors to the exact Truth that is obscured by them.

LordReed:


LMFAO! If the devil who was in the god's presence could choose something different why is it now such a hard thing for the god to reveal itself? No instead you provide a cop out. LMFAO!

Satan and the other angels saw God. But they obviously had the ability to ignore His Power. Satan's ambition, as described in the Bible, suggests that he and other angels had knowledge gaps about God that could be filled with trust in Him or lies about Him.

That is the type of shielding that was done for the angels. They were spirits so it wasn't physical evidence that they were tested with. It was spiritual knowledge of God.

Ihedinobi3:

Not answering this one again either. If you have a problem reading or understanding what you read, other readers will probably not have it too.

Again its not my problem if you provide no answers except more contradictory excuses. LMFAO!

Ihedinobi3:

I already explained this to you elsewhere:

Christianity does not hold the philosophical position of Determinism. It holds Predestination.

In that latter, God creates the Universe along with different possible ways it could exist. That is, once moral creatures came into existence, God created multiple possibilities for how the Universe will be depending on the choices they made. In fact, these possibilities are the options from which each individual moral creature must choose. If they decide to submit to Him, then the Universe "looks" a certain way in response to that choice. If they choose to rebel, then it looks another.

However, even though these multiple possibilities are absolutely genuine and real, God knows precisely how each moral creature will choose and therefore designs the Universe leading up to that choice in a way to make that choice actually possible. If He did not, the creature in question would be forced to make a choice they really didn't want to.

It should be obvious how this is completely different from Determinism. Although moral creatures cannot make a choice unless God decrees that choice so that it is fixed in creature history, no moral creature has ever been forced to make a choice that they didn't want to make. The options they have are absolutely real. As easily as one moral creature chooses to submit to God, they could also choose to rebel and vice versa. It is their true choice which God decrees, not an arbitrary path chosen for them completely independent of their true desires.
- Ihedinobi3 (https://www.nairaland.com/4955808/ten-questions-christians/16#74971920)

Romans 9 affirms that our free will is empowered by God's Decree. It wouldn't function otherwise. We choose what we choose because God decreed that we would choose it since He knew before creating us that it is what we would want to choose once we received life from Him. The freedom of our will is perfectly real and true.

As for God's Plan, He is the Designer and Builder of all Existence. Our free will choices were accounted for in His Plan. Because He knew what we would want to choose, He designed existence to run in such a way that we will all make the choices we want to make while definitely working everything together to lead to the End that He Himself wants. This is just a matter of His Own Sovereign over all things. Our free will is only limited to the options that He Himself presents us with. It is not a Sovereign Will as His is. So, we can only choose from among the options we are given by Him which options are part of His larger eternal plan.

Regarding the Reliability of the Scriptures, I know no reason to doubt them. Men did write them but these were believers who submitted to God in their human weakness. The Lord God is perfectly able to override that weakness in order to produce through such willing servants a perfect work. That was exactly what happened. As a result, the Bible is perfectly accurate. The copies and translations that exist today are obviously not inspired so they all contain some errors but because of the nature of the Word of God, any diligent student or seeker will get through those errors to the exact Truth that is obscured by them.

So the god created a universe in which it has predetermined that a whole swaths of people will go to hell yet it is the good god? LMFAO!

LordReed:


Again its not my problem if you provide no answers except more contradictory excuses. LMFAO!

I have answered it now. I thought I answered it earlier. But I have edited that post to answer it now.

As for contradictory answers, when would you not say that?

LordReed:


So the god created a universe in which it has predetermined that a whole swaths of people will go to hell yet it is the good god? LMFAO!

Straw man fallacy.

Ihedinobi3:

I already explained this to you elsewhere:

Christianity does not hold the philosophical position of Determinism. It holds Predestination.

In that latter, God creates the Universe along with different possible ways it could exist. That is, once moral creatures came into existence, God created multiple possibilities for how the Universe will be depending on the choices they made. In fact, these possibilities are the options from which each individual moral creature must choose. If they decide to submit to Him, then the Universe "looks" a certain way in response to that choice. If they choose to rebel, then it looks another.

However, even though these multiple possibilities are absolutely genuine and real, God knows precisely how each moral creature will choose and therefore designs the Universe leading up to that choice in a way to make that choice actually possible. If He did not, the creature in question would be forced to make a choice they really didn't want to.

It should be obvious how this is completely different from Determinism. Although moral creatures cannot make a choice unless God decrees that choice so that it is fixed in creature history, no moral creature has ever been forced to make a choice that they didn't want to make. The options they have are absolutely real. As easily as one moral creature chooses to submit to God, they could also choose to rebel and vice versa. It is their true choice which God decrees, not an arbitrary path chosen for them completely independent of their true desires.
- Ihedinobi3 (https://www.nairaland.com/4955808/ten-questions-christians/16#74971920)

Romans 9 affirms that our free will is empowered by God's Decree. It wouldn't function otherwise. We choose what we choose because God decreed that we would choose it since He knew before creating us that it is what we would want to choose once we received life from Him. The freedom of our will is perfectly real and true.

As for God's Plan, He is the Designer and Builder of all Existence. Our free will choices were accounted for in His Plan. Because He knew what we would want to choose, He designed existence to run in such a way that we will all make the choices we want to make while definitely working everything together to lead to the End that He Himself wants. This is just a matter of His Own Sovereignty over all things. Our free will is only limited to the options that He Himself presents us with. It is not a Sovereign Will as His is. So, we can only choose from among the options we are given by Him which options are part of His larger eternal plan.

Regarding the Reliability of the Scriptures, I know no reason to doubt them. Men did write them but these were believers who submitted to God in their human weakness. The Lord God is perfectly able to override that weakness in order to produce through such willing servants a perfect work. That was exactly what happened. As a result, the Bible is perfectly accurate. The copies and translations that exist today are obviously not inspired so they all contain some errors but because of the nature of the Word of God, any diligent student or seeker can get through those errors to the exact Truth that is obscured by them.

Read the scripture I quoted, and try to process it. It basically says that God dumped the Pharoah (and other beings) in the trash so to speak for reasons you will not comprehend, being mortal and so on. The book of Job is similar. Read Job 38. How can you reconcile that with your Christian faith? You can't, and don't want to.

Just because you chose an action in a temporal sense to relate to God doesn't mean that he didn't will it in a cosmic sense, making it real. God's will moves mountains. Our part in it was only faith. In other words, endurance. In other words, only existence. This, i agree with.

But free will is a relic of a concept that denies reality. God moulded the inception of the universe and observes everything after that. However, even at its inception God knew everything that would ever happen to it, and even spells out future events for us in cryptic prose in the Bible. Free will makes sense if you are detached from consequences and can literally be anything you want. But such an idea is unconquerable to me, because it seems fair that every action has its consequence, whether temporally or indefinitely. And this idea is the main one for many religions. But you may as well be indifferent to this conception and any one bearing the name "consequences" being as you've championed the philosophy of a man who claims to create equals, and if you champion it you must believe in its victory, no?

LordReed:


So the god created a universe in which it has predetermined that a whole swaths of people will go to hell yet it is the good god? LMFAO!

Ihedinobi3:

Straw man fallacy.

I fail to see the strawman here.

IAmSabrina:

Read the scripture I quoted, and try to process it. It basically says that God dumped the Pharoah (and other beings) in the trash so to speak for reasons you will not comprehend, being mortal and so on. The book of Job is similar. Read Job 38. How can you reconcile that with your Christian faith? You can't, and don't want to.

Just because you chose an action in a temporal sense to relate to God doesn't mean that he didn't will it in a cosmic sense, making it real. God's will moves mountains. Our part in it was only faith. In other words, endurance. In other words, only existence. This, i agree with.

But free will is a relic of a concept that denies reality. God moulded the inception of the universe and observes everything after that. However, even at its inception God knew everything that would ever happen to it, and even spells out future events for us in cryptic prose in the Bible. Free will makes sense if you are detached from consequences and can literally be anything you want. But such an idea is unconquerable to me, because it seems fair that every action has its consequence, whether temporally or indefinitely. And this idea is the main one for many religions. But you may as well be indifferent to this conception and any one bearing the name "consequences" being as you've championed the philosophy of a man who claims to create equals, and if you champion it you must believe in its victory, no?



I fail to see the strawman here.

Regarding your first paragraph, I already explained this with that post. God speaks from foreknowledge as easily as we speak from increasing knowledge. He knew Pharaoh before Pharaoh was born. He knew the choices that Pharaoh would want to make. He decreed those choices after all to make it possible for Pharaoh to choose them when he decided that he wanted to. In other words, he designed Pharaoh to be what Pharaoh wanted to be. This was why Pharaoh was a "vessel of wrath". It was not an arbitrary choice that God made for him in spite of what he might prefer. It was what Pharaoh wanted to be in Time as a creature. This is applicable to every other person who has ever existed. The choices that God knew we would make with our free will are what He designed us to make.

Yes, I not only can but I have reconciled this to my Christian Faith. Jesus Christ died to save everybody. The Gospel was proclaimed right from the Garden of Eden to make sure that everybody who wants to be saved will be. But the fact that God made provision for everybody's Salvation does not mean that everybody will be saved whether they want to be or not. Even though the provision was made, they still have to choose. And God knew from eternity past who would reject it. Those ones were thus designed to reject it according to their desire. In other words, all rebels who will go to Hell are so because that is precisely who they want to be.

When you say,

"Just because you chose an action in a temporal sense to relate to God doesn't mean that he didn't will it in a cosmic sense, making it real. God's will moves mountains. Our part in it was only faith. In other words, endurance. In other words, only existence. This, i agree with,"

you are close to what I am saying. You just didn't finish it. As creatures, we clearly do not self-exist. Our existence is powered by something external to us. That is, we exist by God's Will. But God's Will is that we will choose whether we will submit to His Authority or not. Therefore, our existence incorporates the ability to make that choice. Because also we cannot make any choice at all without God's enabling, God using His Foreknowledge of us decreed that we would make the very choice we would want to make. Therefore, we choose precisely what we want by God's Own enabling through His irresistible Decree. In other words, our free will choices were ratified and sanctioned by God's Own inviolable Decree so that nothing can stop us from choosing exactly what we want to choose.

However, when you say,

"Free will makes sense if you are detached from consequences and can literally be anything you want,"

you make the same straw man that LordReed saw fit to make. That may be why you failed to see that he made a straw man. Free will is not the ability to do whatever you please with or without consequence. It is the ability to choose between just two options:

1. Submit to God's Authority

2. Rebel against God's Authority..

That is all. Consequences and rewards are only part of the furniture involved in making this choice. They themselves do not affect the freedom of the will. If they did, the fear of the Lake of Fire would force everyone to be saved or else the Hope of Glory, Honor and Immortality with God would force everyone to be saved. Obviously, neither is the case. Everyone is born with a sense of concern about their bad behavior and a dread of death and the nagging knowledge of Judgment after Death. But lots of people extinguish such concerns by the time they are out of childhood. In fact, by teenage, the desire to have fun and test your limits in all types of things pretty much makes the concept of a more fun eternal existence ridiculous. Most people don't want a moral conscience at that age. Beyond that age, life is just plain depressing unless you can find something to lose yourself in and think as little as possible about it. So, the incentives and deterrents attached to the options do not force a decision one way or another.

In summary then, here's what I said:

1. Free will is the ability to choose whether to submit to God or to rebel against Him. (What I did not say: It is the ability to do whatever you like.)

2. The very fact that we are creatures means that we cannot do a single thing unless God enables us to do it.

3. God's Omniscience means that He knows beforehand what we will choose once we have a free will. (What I did not say: God's foreknowledge makes us do things whether we want to do them or not.)

4. Because our very existence is powered by God and because God knows what we want to choose, every choice that we make or will make was already decreed by Him before He made us.

5. Thus, free will is possible because of both God's Omniscience and His Omnipotence.

That is, there is no determinism here. The options we have are real but because God knows what we want to choose, He makes us able to choose it by decreeing that we will choose it. Otherwise, we would not be able to choose it at all. This is the Christian doctrine of Predestination.

Romans 9, Job 38, Exodus 10 and indeed the whole Bible teaches this.

Ihedinobi3:

1. Free will is the ability to choose whether to submit to God or to rebel against Him. (What I did not say: It is the ability to do whatever you like.)

2. The very fact that we are creatures means that we cannot do a single thing unless God enables us to do it.

3. God's Omniscience means that He knows beforehand what we will choose once we have a free will. (What I did not say: God's foreknowledge makes us do things whether we want to do them or not.)

4. Because our very existence is powered by God and because God knows what we want to choose, every choice that we make or will make was already decreed by Him before He made us.

5. Thus, free will is possible because of both God's Omniscience and His Omnipotence.

That is, there is no determinism here. The options we have are real but because God knows what we want to choose, He makes us able to choose it by decreeing that we will choose it. Otherwise, we would not be able to choose it at all. This is the Christian doctrine of Predestination.

Romans 9, Job 38, Exodus 10 and indeed the whole Bible teaches this.

@bolded answers free will a bit. But concedes that God has no plan.

IAmSabrina:

@bolded answers free will a bit. But concedes that God has no plan.

That is very difficult to understand. Do you really believe that such a concession was so much as implied there?

Consider that it is precisely because God is working toward getting an Eternal Family of creatures willing to be with Him in loving fellowship eternally that He creates a universe that provides His moral creatures with all the opportunities they need to exercise the free will that He has given them. Each free will choice is wisely worked with every other choice in order to lead steadily to the full number of that Family.

It is hard to miss that in what I said. There would be no point in having a free will if the end result is not to have an Eternal Family of willing creatures.

Ihedinobi3:

That is very difficult to understand. Do you really believe that such a concession was so much as implied there?

That depends on you. You said God gives us the ability to make a choice. So do we choose our actions by ourselves OR does God choose for us? Answer this first.

---

Now before I continue, I want us to establish something first:

Free will, in humans, is the power or capacity to choose among alternatives or to act in certain situations independently of natural, social, or divine restraints. Free will is denied by some proponents of determinism. Arguments for free will are based on the subjective experience of freedom, on sentiments of guilt, on revealed religion, and on the universal supposition of responsibility for personal actions that underlies the concepts of law, reward, punishment, and incentive (for additional discussion of free will and determinism, see moral responsibility, problem of). In theology the existence of free will must be reconciled with God’s omniscience and goodness (in allowing people to choose badly) and with divine grace, which allegedly is necessary for any meritorious act. A prominent feature of existentialism is the concept of a radical, perpetual, and frequently agonizing freedom of choice. Jean-Paul Sartre (1905–80), for example, spoke of the individual “condemned to be free.”

Source: https://www.britannica.com/topic/free-will

---

When I'm discussing free will, i'm discussing free will as related to philosophy, not just christianity.

Ihedinobi3:

Consider that it is precisely because God is working toward getting an Eternal Family of creatures willing to be with Him in loving fellowship eternally that He creates a universe that provides His moral creatures with all the opportunities they need to exercise the free will that He has given them. Each free will choice is wisely worked with every other choice in order to lead steadily to the full number of that Family.

I honestly don't get this logic

If God knows EVERYTHING that will happen, then if something different happens he would be wrong. Therefore, everything must happen exactly the way that he foresaw it at the beginning of the Universe. If nothing different can happen then we don't have free will. If we don't have free will and everything is predestined, then God is accountable because he pre-arranged the laws and starting conditions of this universe that determined our actions. Therefore, we can't be held accountable for our "sins"

TLDR; If all actions are in fact predestined, the Creator must be fully culpable for all sins.

I get that we're trapped by the limitations of our understanding. But that just emphasises God's evil in creating us without the ability to understand him. We literally cannot be expected to understand that God's plan is good, but God nonetheless expects us to accept this. Which might be ok if there weren't a thousand other mutually incompatible religions and ideologies all insisting that any failure of understanding reflects our deficiency and not a deficiency with the ideology.

IAmSabrina:

That depends on you. You said God gives us the ability to make a choice. So do we choose our actions by ourselves OR does God choose for us? Answer this first.

It seemed to me like we were already done with this and had moved on to God's possession of a Plan.

I don't quite see how the above is not a false dichotomy in the face of my foregoing arguments.

IAmSabrina:

---

Now before I continue, I want us to establish something first:

Free will, in humans, is the power or capacity to choose among alternatives or to act in certain situations independently of natural, social, or divine restraints. Free will is denied by some proponents of determinism. Arguments for free will are based on the subjective experience of freedom, on sentiments of guilt, on revealed religion, and on the universal supposition of responsibility for personal actions that underlies the concepts of law, reward, punishment, and incentive (for additional discussion of free will and determinism, see moral responsibility, problem of). In theology the existence of free will must be reconciled with God’s omniscience and goodness (in allowing people to choose badly) and with divine grace, which allegedly is necessary for any meritorious act. A prominent feature of existentialism is the concept of a radical, perpetual, and frequently agonizing freedom of choice. Jean-Paul Sartre (1905–80), for example, spoke of the individual “condemned to be free.”

Source: https://www.britannica.com/topic/free-will

---

When I'm discussing free will, i'm discussing free will as related to philosophy, not just christianity.

Philosophy is not much my cup of tea. I indulge sometimes but my business in apologetics is specifically to demonstrate the Bible's position clearly so that everyone interested knows what they are arguing for or against regarding it.

Therefore, I cannot defend that definition of free will. It is not the biblical one although it does skirt close to it. As I said before, biblically, free will is the ability to choose between submitting to and rebelling against God in the context of one's temporal circumstances.

In other words, there are limits, if not restraints. Creature free will is not sovereign. It is absolutely free but only within clearly defined limits. We cannot choose what circumstances we must make our choices in. And we cannot expand or shrink our array of options. But we are completely free to choose one thing or the other in our changing circumstances from day to day.

IAmSabrina:
I honestly don't get this logic

If God knows EVERYTHING that will happen, then if something different happens he would be wrong. Therefore, everything must happen exactly the way that he foresaw it at the beginning of the Universe. If nothing different can happen then we don’t have free will. If we don’t have free will and everything is predestined, then God is accountable because he pre-arranged the laws and starting conditions of this universe that determined our actions. Therefore, we can’t be held accountable for our "sins"

TLDR; If all actions are in fact predestined, the Creator must be fully culpable for all sins.

I get that we're trapped by the limitations of our understanding. But that just emphasises God's evil in creating us without the ability to understand him. We literally cannot be expected to understand that God's plan is good, but God nonetheless expects us to accept this. Which might be ok if there weren't a thousand other mutually incompatible religions and ideologies all insisting that any failure of understanding reflects our deficiency and not a deficiency with the ideology.

I feel right now like I just got stuck in a loop. This is what I already explained. Nothing at all can happen unless God decrees it. Thus, our choices were decreed by Him. But the freedom of those choices is not thus negated. Rather, it is guaranteed by that Decree.

Therefore, these choices are not made by God, they are only made possible by Him.

Ihedinobi3:

It seemed to me like we were already done with this and had moved on to God's possession of a Plan.

I don't quite see how the above is not a false dichotomy in the face of my foregoing arguments.



Philosophy is not much my cup of tea. I indulge sometimes but my business in apologetics is specifically to demonstrate the Bible's position clearly so that everyone interested knows what they are arguing for or against regarding it.

Therefore, I cannot defend that definition of free will. It is not the biblical one although it does skirt close to it. As I said before, biblically, free will is the ability to choose between submitting to and rebelling against God in the context of one's temporal circumstances.

In other words, there are limits, if not restraints. Creature free will is not sovereign. It is absolutely free but only within clearly defined limits. We cannot choose what circumstances we must make our choices in. And we cannot expand or shrink our array of options. But we are completely free to choose one thing or the other in our changing circumstances from day to day.



I feel right now like I just got stuck in a loop. This is what I already explained. Nothing at all can happen unless God decrees it. Thus, our choices were decreed by Him. But the freedom of those choices is not thus negated. Rather, it is guaranteed by that Decree.

Therefore, these choices are not made by God, they are only made possible by Him.

You put yourself in this loop to be honest. I understand perfectly what you are saying but it seems you don't understand what I am.

Let me explain in few sentences what i'm driving at here:
1. Take for example me wanting to drive down a road and choosing my turns on the fly.
2. If there are only two roads, and both start at A and end at B, where is my free will?

You might say that it depends on the road chosen, but what if my will is to go to destination C? What if I just want to stop part way on that road? If I have to go to B regardless of the route chosen, I really don't have free will.

Thus my argument: you can either have a plan, or you can have free will, but not both.

IAmSabrina:

You put yourself in this loop to be honest. I understand what you are saying but it seems you don't understand what I am.

Let me explain in few sentences what i'm driving at here:
1. Take for example me wanting to drive down a road and choosing my turns on the fly.
2. If there are only two roads, and both start at A and end at B, where is my free will?

You might say that it depends on the road chosen, but what if my will is to go to destination C? What if I just want to stop part way on that road? If I have to go to B regardless of the route chosen, I really don't have free will.

Thus my argument: you can either have a plan, or you can have free will, but not both.

If you want to believe that, I can't stop you. These conversations are not about me, only about the Truth.

The Truth is that everyone has two options. Also, everyone has the ability to choose one or the other. As long as anyone is alive, they have the opportunity to exercise that ability. That is what free will is about.

Nothing in that suggests that you have two roads that start at the same point and end at the same point. I have no idea where you got that from. It has nothing to do with my argument.

As for having a plan, I'm sure you know that I won't take your word for it. Clearly, God has a Plan that requires human beings to make a choice to submit or rebel against Him. I don't see at all how both things are not working together. The mutual exclusivity you are insisting on is unjustified.

Ihedinobi3:

The Truth is that everyone has two options. Also, everyone has the ability to choose one or the other. As long as anyone is alive, they have the opportunity to exercise that ability. That is what free will is about.

If the choice is ours to make, please reconcile this thought with God's plan

Ihedinobi3:

Nothing in that suggests that you have two roads that start at the same point and end at the same point. I have no idea where you got that from. It has nothing to do with my argument.

Let me use another (hopefully more clear) example. If I am in a maze, and the only ways that I can turn lead me to the exit (aside from the fact that this is a pretty poor maze), then have I free will if my turns are forced? Even if I have to choose a path, aren't my turns still forced if I am moved from an incorrect path onto the correct path to reach the desired end?

Ihedinobi3:

As for having a plan, I'm sure you know that I won't take your word for it. Clearly, God has a Plan that requires human beings to make a choice to submit or rebel against Him. I don't see at all how both things are not working together. The mutual exclusivity you are insisting on is unjustified.

Can you go into more details of this plan @bolded?

Also, since your god is allpowerful and he pre-arranged the starting conditions of the universe, why couldn't he create a world where we have choice, but children aren't burned alive in sewers?

IAmSabrina:
If the choice is ours to make, please reconcile this thought with God's plan

LOL THEY NO KNOW SAY WE MENTAL PASS THEM. CARRY GO JARE!

CAPSLOCKED:


LOL
THEY NO KNOW SAY WE MENTAL PASS THEM.
CARRY GO JARE!

LOL

IAmSabrina:

If the choice is ours to make, please reconcile this thought with God's plan

"...it is precisely because God is working toward getting an Eternal Family of creatures willing to be with Him in loving fellowship eternally that He creates a universe that provides His moral creatures with all the opportunities they need to exercise the free will that He has given them."
- Ihedinobi3 (https://www.nairaland.com/5020369/god-shoes/3#76350634)

IAmSabrina:
Let me use another (hopefully more clear) example. If I am in a maze, and the only ways that I can turn lead me to the exit (aside from the fact that this is a pretty poor maze), then have I free will if my turns are forced? Even if I have to choose a path, aren't my turns still forced if I am moved from an incorrect path onto the correct path to reach the desired end?

"...biblically, free will is the ability to choose between submitting to and rebelling against God in the context of one's temporal circumstances.
- Ihedinobi3 (https://www.nairaland.com/5020369/god-shoes/3#76352522)

"...our free will choices were ratified and sanctioned by God's Own inviolable Decree so that nothing can stop us from choosing exactly what we want to choose...

...Free will is not the ability to do whatever you please with or without consequence. It is the ability to choose between just two options:

1. Submit to God's Authority

2. Rebel against God's Authority..

That is all. Consequences and rewards are only part of the furniture involved in making this choice. They themselves do not affect the freedom of the will. If they did, the fear of the Lake of Fire would force everyone to be saved or else the Hope of Glory, Honor and Immortality with God would force everyone to be saved. Obviously, neither is the case. Everyone is born with a sense of concern about their bad behavior and a dread of death and the nagging knowledge of Judgment after Death. But lots of people extinguish such concerns by the time they are out of childhood. In fact, by teenage, the desire to have fun and test your limits in all types of things pretty much makes the concept of a more fun eternal existence ridiculous. Most people don't want a moral conscience at that age. Beyond that age, life is just plain depressing unless you can find something to lose yourself in and think as little as possible about it. So, the incentives and deterrents attached to the options do not force a decision one way or another."
- Ihedinobi3 (https://www.nairaland.com/5020369/god-shoes/3#76349854)

If you want to use analogies, then

1. Road A leads to Eternal Life with God;

2. Road B leads to the Second Death.

Also, you drive. You choose which road you take. Nobody does the choosing for you.

The maze analogy is still unclear. I am not sure how it relates at all to my arguments.

IAmSabrina:
Can you go into more details of this plan @bolded?

"...it is precisely because God is working toward getting an Eternal Family of creatures willing to be with Him in loving fellowship eternally that He creates a universe that provides His moral creatures with all the opportunities they need to exercise the free will that He has given them."
- Ihedinobi3 (https://www.nairaland.com/5020369/god-shoes/3#76350634)

IAmSabrina:
Also, since your god is allpowerful and he pre-arranged the starting conditions of the universe, why couldn't he create a world where we have choice, but children aren't burned alive in sewers?

What does this mean exactly?

Ihedinobi3:

"...it is precisely because God is working toward getting an Eternal Family of creatures willing to be with Him in loving fellowship eternally that He creates a universe that provides His moral creatures with all the opportunities they need to exercise the free will that He has given them."
- Ihedinobi3 (https://www.nairaland.com/5020369/god-shoes/3#76350634)

What of the creatures who aren't willing to be with him in loving fellowship? Was it God that created them? Are the choices they made not part of God's plan? He knew before they even existed that they'd rebel against him but he punishes them anyway, no?

Ihedinobi3:

"...biblically, free will is the ability to choose between submitting to and rebelling against God in the context of one's temporal circumstances.
- Ihedinobi3 (https://www.nairaland.com/5020369/god-shoes/3#76352522)

"...our free will choices were ratified and sanctioned by God's Own inviolable Decree so that nothing can stop us from choosing exactly what we want to choose...

...Free will is not the ability to do whatever you please with or without consequence. It is the ability to choose between just two options:

1. Submit to God's Authority

2. Rebel against God's Authority..

That is all. Consequences and rewards are only part of the furniture involved in making this choice. They themselves do not affect the freedom of the will. If they did, the fear of the Lake of Fire would force everyone to be saved or else the Hope of Glory, Honor and Immortality with God would force everyone to be saved. Obviously, neither is the case. Everyone is born with a sense of concern about their bad behavior and a dread of death and the nagging knowledge of Judgment after Death. But lots of people extinguish such concerns by the time they are out of childhood. In fact, by teenage, the desire to have fun and test your limits in all types of things pretty much makes the concept of a more fun eternal existence ridiculous. Most people don't want a moral conscience at that age. Beyond that age, life is just plain depressing unless you can find something to lose yourself in and think as little as possible about it. So, the incentives and deterrents attached to the options do not force a decision one way or another."
- Ihedinobi3 (https://www.nairaland.com/5020369/god-shoes/3#76349854)

If you want to use analogies, then

1. Road A leads to Eternal Life with God;

2. Road B leads to the Second Death.

Also, you drive. You choose which road you take. Nobody does the choosing for you.

The maze analogy is still unclear. I am not sure how it relates at all to my arguments.

@bolded. This just proves that you've not understood what I've been writing.

First of all, there's two roads but they lead to the SAME stop.

God knows the end from the beginning. Is there any choice you'll make that will surprise God & alter where you're going to end up?

Ihedinobi3:

[s]"...it is precisely because God is working toward getting an Eternal Family of creatures willing to be with Him in loving fellowship eternally that He creates a universe that provides His moral creatures with all the opportunities they need to exercise the free will that He has given them."
- Ihedinobi3 (https://www.nairaland.com/5020369/god-shoes/3#76350634)[/s]

Ihedinobi3:

What does this mean exactly?

You know exactly what it means. God is not a dullard. Or do you believe there is no free will in heaven?

If NO, are we just puppets on a string? One may say, you may be so blissful that you are not even tempted to sin any more--so we're just mindless automations in heaven? Does that mean God created temptation in the first place? Why didn't he just have the blissfulness to begin with? Because of free will?

If YES, how long until someone pulls another fast one and screws up? Until the next failure? It would be a cycle of Bible stories that time after time the God character has to wipe out most of humanity and start fresh, then they fall back into "sin" and he has to wipe them out all over again. Whether it be flood, fire, or what have you.

Permit me to use this excerpt from blogger Vexen Crabtree:
If we do have a 2D object, such as a picture, then we can turn it into a 3D object via a simple trick. If we make an exact copy of the 2D painting and change it slightly, and put them behind each other and repeat this 100 times, the result apparently turns 2D into 3D. Every school child knows this. If you draw a stick man in the bottom corner of a notebook, and a slightly different one on the next page in the same relative location, a school child can then bend the corner of the notebook, flick through all the pages and see each 2D drawing in quick succession. This creates an illusion of a 2D stick man moving. It is almost as if the 2D drawing has gained a third dimension of movement.

The child, who exists one dimension "above" the drawing, created the stickman's past and future (even if it is presently half way through its flickering existence). The stickman has no way of perceiving or inferring the existence of dimensions other than its native two (unless the stickman developed complex maths, as we have). It exists in ignorance of "higher" dimensions. Higher means dimensions that are not native to the theorized 2D object.
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/dimensions.html#Dimensions

Do you think there's anything that stickman will do that will surprise the child?

Just like that child has authored the stickman's destiny, that's how God has authored our own destiny. So, I'm asking again. Isn't there a possibility that God could have created the universe without the unnecessary burden of sin and pain and punishment?