Mehnnnnnnnn!

Joagbaje finally got his moment of Glory on NL but exclusively as a student. With everybody able to understand truth except for our resident pastor, one has no recourse but to wonder at the spiritual state of those taught by NL's seemingly favorite student.

Maybe NL ought to set up a school for christian toddlers (those without teeth AT ALL) and register Jo as its first student

^^^


On a more serious note I sincerely weep for all those under the spiritual direction of joagbaje, chris oyaks and the entire membership of christ embassy PLC

Quite an interesting thread,my favourite kind of thread!

@chukwudi44
James did not say works alone=salvation,what he said is faith+works =salvation.


The above inference is clearly wrong.

nuclearboy:

Mehnnnnnnnn!

Joagbaje finally got his moment of Glory on NL but exclusively as a student. With everybody able to understand truth except for our resident pastor, one has no recourse but to wonder at the spiritual state of those taught by NL's seemingly favorite student.

Maybe NL ought to set up a school for christian toddlers (those without teeth AT ALL) and register Jo as its first student

Don't rejoice too soon. I've been busy and I will respond soon. If Im proven wrong , it's not failure . I will only add to knowledge . I don't think I am wrong.

@Joagbajs

do you take delight in foncusing (sorry confusing) yourself and whoever tries to hear you out? You've been all lies to me since i knew you on NL. true definition of an apostate. Do what thou wilt!

Pastor AIO:

agreed. Anyone can say they have faith, but every tree that grows has it's fruits. Including faith (which is not a tree but that is just the analogy that Jesus used). And you can know it by it's fruit.
Every faith is backed by works. If you do not show love, compassion, inner joy then there is no faith in you, that faith, if it exists, is dead.

You do not do works in order to be saved, but the works is a natural consequence and a sign that you have been saved.

It is either a person has faith or they do not, it is that simple. A dead faith is no faith.
Your last statement is right on target.

chukwudi44:

@Joagbaje

James did not say works alone=salvation,what he said is faith+works =salvation.

You will decieve yourselve if you think you are a christian but fail to show it by your works of charity.On the lastr day many praye warriors whil end up in hell because they failed to add work to their faith .The gospel tells us in matt 7:21-23.

Point of correction, Jesus did not infer  some believers would be in hell. People that would be there are non-believers, people He never  knew.

[/quote ]

author=chukwudi44 link=topic=502726.msg6638826#msg6638826 date=1282754349]
@Joagbaje

These people had faith and performed miracles but failed to make heaven .

[/quote]

So false.

[quote author=chukwudi44 link=topic=502726.msg6638826#msg6638826 date=1282754349]
@Joagbaje
On the last day Jesus will judge by both faith and works and not faith alone. In matt 25:31-46

Final Judgment
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was unclothed and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or unclothed and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, [6] you did it to me.’[/i]

41 “T[b]hen he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, unclothed and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or unclothed or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”[/b][i]

Pastopr joe will you also villify Jesus by judging by works in the passage above

 
So falsely   interpreted,. Jesus does not need any vilifying. His judgement in this passage as in others is based on faith. Those that would go to heaven according to Him are the righteous. They are not saved because of the good works they do; rather the good works confirm they are saved. We do not do good works to be saved; rather we are saved to do good works.

@5solas
Are you sure you understand english at all? All your comments above are very false, illeterate and delusional. Chukwudi was bang on target with his summize of Jesus position on salvation which is faith exemplified by works.

The above inference is clearly wrong.

How on earth is it wrong.James clearly stated that If you have faith ,you must back it up with works of charity to be able to get salvation.Even if you have the greatest faith in the world without showing good works of harity you are deceivinh urselfThe people JESUS described in matt 7:21-23 had enough faith to perform miracles and cast out demons but still failed to make heaven.

works alone will not get you to heaven ,likewise faith alone will also not get u to heaven.The two go hand in hand.

So falsely interpreted,. Jesus does not need any vilifying. His judgement in this passage as in others is based on faith. Those that would go to heaven according to Him are the righteous. They are not saved because of the good works they do; rather the good works confirm they are saved. We do not do good works to be saved; rather we are saved to do good works.

Are you sure you read the passage at all,Jesus condemed Peple to hell fire for failing to do works of charity,and commended others for doing the same.Did he scold them for fornicating,idolatory,stealing e.t.c.It is because he knows people will overlook these areas that was why he mentioned them.

Another very fascinating thing about Paul is that throughout his copious and extensive writings that have formed the greater part of the new testament, he does not once mention the teachings (logia) of Jesus. He never says, " Jesus said so so so so so and so". Even though he didn't meet Jesus in person the teachings of Jesus were been spread and taught abroad.
There are only 2 accounts I can think of where he mentions what Jesus taught. One, when he was upbraiding the Corinthians on the way that they ate together as a church.

23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.”

the other account is in the book of acts where we are told that he said . . .

35In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”

However this is Luke telling us what Paul said not a document we actually have from Paul himself. The other more funny thing about this quotation is that it is only found here. It cannot be found in any of the gospels or accounts of what Jesus said.

It is amazing that the ingenuous and amazing teachings of Jesus in both parable form and direct instructions never once get a mention by Paul. This, scholars agree, is in fact the most remarkable thing about Paul. Not what he said but what he didn't say. Even if Paul never met Jesus, these teachings were making the rounds and being passed on from mouth to mouth.

But having said that, none of the other new testament writers actually quote Jesus much either. It's mind-boggling. No one tries to make a further exposition or explanation of any of his teachings.

Image123:

The scriptures you quoted doesn't say the above, except that you assume it. Are you really saying that James taught Peter to withdraw and seperate himself?Notice the scriptures below and carefully note the bolded.

 James didn't follow Jesus in his life time he followed Judaism. But inherited Jesus ministry as his next of kin. According to Jewish custom.  he only became a Christian after christ had died.James was younger in Christian faith than other apostles But for the fact that he became head of the church there, and a junior brother to Jesus. He was revered by all. His words were rules so, if Peter had a contrary opinion, it didn't matter.James had spoken and his words were laws.  He was an advocate of the jewish laws and customs, and he mixed them with christianity. He treated the gentile convert as proselytes .

Proselytes were gentile converts to Judaism . There were 2 kinds of proselytes: the devout proselytes and half proselyte . The devout proselytes must be circumcised and be fully converted . But the half proselyte were not to be circumcised , they were only given certain laws such as . Avoid fornication, do justice, avoid idols, do not tear limbs of animals etc.

James was giving out similar rules to the church but let's follow the sequence.  James took over the leadership in the Jerusalem church. There were three men in Jesus inner circle. Peter, John and James( john's brother) . James was killed by herod. Probably that's when James Jesus brother who had become part of them was elected  to replace James zebedee among the three at the same time he took over leadership since he was Jesus next of kin. And brought In his Jewish doctrine. Because Peter definitely would not be part of this. So they went into the background while James ran his course.
 
When some of the brethren from Judea invariably from james being their head accosted Paul and insisting that new converts must be circumcised as full proselytes to be saved.  Remember paul referd to them as people from james.

Galatians 2:11-12
11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision

So in acts 15,  Those who came from judea were James guys according to Paul .

Acts 15:1-2
1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren,[ and said], Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.


This lead to the council meeting in Jerusalem. At the meeting Paul gave testimonies of the exploits they had with "these" uncircumcised Gentiles , undeniable masnifestations of God.

Acts 15:3-4
3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. 4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and[ of] the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.


When some of the advocate of proselyte laws raised issues. There was a hot argument. And Peter saved the day by recounting his experience with Gentiles .


Acts 15:7-13
7[b] And when there had been much disputing[/b], Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men[ and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel,,
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Peter did the job and coupled with the testimony of Paul which synchronised with Peter experience , it knocked down James Judaism stronghold. Paul had opportunity to do another round of testimony.

12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

At this point  nothing was left for James to hold on to. Rules had to change.

13. And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto ME: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

But he only stepped down from full,proselyte requirement to half proselyte in his judgement.

19 Wherefore MY sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Altheia alleged I omitted fornicAtion part , the issue is the fornication here is not BOY MEETS GIRL before marriage , it's a satanic ,heathen worship with sex. A form of idolatry These demands were for Judaism convert , which implicated James the more.

22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner;

The APOSTLES and ELDERS and BRETHREN send greetingunto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: 24Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised,and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

The apostles denied their involvement , but James didn't deny it. Paul alleged they were James guys and James Jewish final judgement also was proof. He only stepped down the demand from category A to B.

They were kindergarten demands. Compare James demand with paul's teaching. But Paul was a humble man. He didn't agree with all james said but he didn't argue, at least he has won a battle for that day. He didn't allow James idea on meat to pollute his congregation.

Colossians 2:16
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath[ days]:


1 Corinthians 8:4
4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol[ is] nothing in the world, and that[ there is] none other God but one.

1 Timothy 4:4-5
4 For every creature of God[ is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

1 Corinthians 8:8
8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

It was paul jesus gave the doctrine and revelation of the church to.Paul functioned at a very higher level of truth and knowledge he knew more than they all. Peter didn't deny the fact that Paul had strong meat for their teeth to chew.

2 Peter 3:15-16
15  our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16[b] , [/b] in which are some things hard to be understood, , .

You can see where James is coming from.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:[ it is] the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

PAUL
Romans 3:28
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. [/color]

JAMES
James 2:14
14 What[ doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Yes! Faith alone in christ is all that is required for salvation. It is not of works.

[color=#990000]Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:[ it is] the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

JAMES
James 2:24
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. [/

JAMES
James 2:21
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

PAUL
Romans 4:2
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath[ whereof] to glory; but not before God.

He had great principles but lacked the spiritual vocabulary which I will explain later.
We can't take it from James that he had good practical marl teaching. But the gospel is deeper than that .

When Paul visited James the second time , James and his men had to make him perform Jewish vow!

[color=#990000]Acts 21:18-19
18 And the[ day] following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.20 And when they heard[ it], they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise[ their] children, neither to walk after the customs. 22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

They now gave Paul a sentimental, fleshly advise.

23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave[ their] heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but[ that] thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written[ and] concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from[ things] offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
.

See what they made Paul do? James and his congregation didn't have full revelation of who the Christian is.  Either Jew or gentile, it was Paul Jesus gave the doctrine to.

Galatians 1:11-13
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught[ it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.:


Ephesians 3:2-4
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you- ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery;( as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery;( as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men

He knew what he had, and was not intimidated by the title of James in the conference, you can see his attitude in his writing.

Galatians 2:4-6
4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: 5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. 6[b] But of these who seemed to be somewhat,( whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed[ to be somewhat] in conference added nothing to me:[/b]

James didn't follow Jesus in his life time he followed Judaism

christianity did not exist until after the resurection of Jesus,so James could not have become a christian during JESUS 's lifetime.Everyone then including JESUS practised judaism.

But inherited Jesus ministry as his next of kin

where did you get this trash from,do you think God's work is family business like you penterascals have turned it into.Jesus shortly before he ascended commandred the care of his sheep to St Peter ,and not James.Even his mother was committed to St John and not to anay of his cousins.

His words were rules so, if Peter had a contrary opinion, it didn't matter.James had spoken and his words were laws.

do you always forget to consult your brains before posting?where did you find this nonsense because I know it is not in the bible nor was it reported by any of the church fathers and other classical writers.

James was giving out similar rules to the church but let's follow the sequence. James took over the leadership in the Jerusalem church. There were three men in Jesus inner circle. Peter, John and James( john's brother) . James was killed by herod. Probably that's when James Jesus brother who had become part of them was elected to replace James zebedee among the three at the same time he took over leadership since he was Jesus next of kin. And brought In his Jewish doctrine. Because Peter definitely would not be part of this. So they went into the background while James ran his course

where is your souce of information please,this was never reported in the bible or by the church fathers.


While it is possble James might have insisted on circumcision before the council of jerusalem but that was resolved then,and everything went on fine.

2:11-12

11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision

Ihave said it earlier that yo penteracals lack basic theological training, someone will just go to a mushroom bible school and after 3 months starts calling himself a pastor.

Do you know when that book was written or the context under which it was written.Paul was merely describing events which took place before the council of Jerusalem.

The apostles denied their involvement , but James didn't deny it. Paul alleged they were James guys and James Jewish final judgement also was proof. He only stepped down the demand from category A to B.

How on earth was that judgement jewish? do you reason with your brains at all.From the way I see it you have chosen to acept certain parts of the bible that catches your fancy but reject others which go against you evil practices,this shows you are not a true christian.Even Paul himself whom you areso fond of said all scriptures sre inspired of god and are useful for teaching doctrines.

Even the tithes you are so much for is it not part of this jewish practices ?Am sure if money was attached to circumcision ,you will be in the fore front of it.

James 2:24
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only

This statemnt is very true as proven by Jesus in mattew 25 :31-46

Final Judgment
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was unclothed and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or unclothed and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, [6] you did it to me.

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, unclothed and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or unclothed or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

why do you think JESUS sent people to hell for not observing works of charity?

Pope chukwudi

christianity did not exist until after the resurection of Jesus,so James could not have become a christian during JESUS 's lifetime.Everyone then including JESUS practised judaism.

So who says Christianity started before resurection. Jesus did not practise Judaism . He was the fulfilment. But his junior brothers didn't believe in him including James

John 7:5
5 For even his own brothers did not believe in him.

Where do I even start with your nonsense here?

The present truth now is not for us be debating on the issue of individuals, be it Paul or James, the underlinning factor with regards to our faith is summarised simply the scripture below:

Eph 2:20-22
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

regardless of their difference which is of necessity expected perhaps because of variance in experiences but like l said the common denominator for us is that we are "BUILT", and that should be the emphasis.

KunleOshob:

@5solas
Are you sure you understand english at all? All your comments above are very false, illeterate and delusional. Chukwudi was bang on target with his summize of Jesus position on salvation which is faith exemplified by works.

hey! hey! young man don't switch mode and become hostile, hmmmmmm se you dey hear!
at least pretend to be nice.

@Joagbaje


Even Paul himself did not beleive in christianity at the very begining,so your post here makes no meaning.At least James converted before Paul

chukwudi44:

@Joagbaje


Even Paul himself did not beleive in christianity at the very begining,so your post here makes no meaning.At least James converted before Paul

Please can some people just simply wake form their prolonged slumber?
the expression ", Even Paul himself did not believe in christianity at the very beginning, " is inconsequencial. For God sake what bearing does that have on this topic of discuss, when the apostle paul himself revealed to us by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit ", that if a man be in Christ he is a new creation, "

2 corinthians 5:17
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Joagbaje: why do you keep posting trash and lies? I pity the people that are under you as a pastor.

Joagbaje:

James [. . .] [glow=red,2,50]inherited[/glow] Jesus ministry as his next of kin.

This gets worse! What was Jesus' ministry? It was unique:
Matt 1:21. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
So this was family property that was inherited, passed on from father to son abi? The problem for you is that your own gospel is "food and drink gospel". Your god is your belly; that's why you make such astounding lying statements.

KJV: Romans 16:18. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
KJV: Philippians Chapter 3:18-19.
(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Joagbaje:

James was giving out similar rules to the church

^The same Acts 15 that you quoted so liberally from dismisses what you wrote above.
24. Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Joagbaje:

But he only stepped down from full,proselyte requirement to half proselyte in his judgement.

19 Wherefore MY sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Altheia alleged I omitted fornicAtion part , the issue is the fornication here is not BOY MEETS GIRL before marriage , it's a satanic ,heathen worship with sex. A form of idolatry These demands were for Judaism convert , which implicated James the more.

^Where did I allege that you omitted fornication? Here is the post where I addressed these issues that you raised.

aletheia:

Post script: I missed addressing this part of your post. More insidious lies to lead the sheep of Jesus astray.
And thus you dismiss the following as the Law of Moses:
#1. Abstaining from pollutions of idols.
#2. Abstaining from fornication.
#3. Abstaining from blood and things strangled.

Anyone reading this will know that these are the things that occult practitioners, and followers of the enemy delight in, (they have serious spiritual implications as seen in the history of the Israel) yet Joagbaje dismisses the command that Christians abstain from these things as "Law of Moses" forgetting that these commands of God predate Moses (Genesis 9). To him it would be justified to partake of them since they fall under the rubric of the Law of Moses (How convenient for him that tithes don't fall under the Law of Moses).

Joagbaje is no Christian but a false teacher, a wolf ravening the flock of Jesus.

^On that other thread you dismissed the commands as being "Law of Moses", while here you try to downgrade them to "requirements for half-proselytes". Same old tactic. Moreover where in Acts 19, does it distinguish between boy meets girl type of fornication and heathen worship with sex? Fornication is. . .fornication. So for you fornication is justifiable for Christians so long as it is the boy meets girl variety? Do you begin to see how unsustainable your eisegesis is? Those requirements predate Moses as you would know if you were acquainted with your bible as the Word of God rather than treating it as a financial manual.

I will ask you some questions.
#1. Where in James epistle do you find him advocating that new converts be circumcised? This was written by him, so it will be the clearest statement of his "doctrine"
#2. What is the difference between :
Paul who says here:
Gal 6:3-4. For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
And James who says also:
James 2:17-18. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Or all these other verses:

Matt 5:16. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Acts 9:36. Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did.
2 Cor 9:8. And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
Colossians 1:10. That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
2 Tim 3:17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Titus 2:7. In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
Titus 2:14. Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Titus 3: 18. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

^Apart from all the other verses from Paul's letters, look closely at the last verse above; FAITH(they which have believed in God)=>WORKS(be careful to maintain good works). Turns out Paul and James were not so different after all.

Your confusion arises from not distinguishing between the works of the Law and the works of Faith; as the Bible so clearly does. Neither James nor Paul nor any other Apostle of Jesus taught that we are justified by the works of the Law but they taught that True Faith=>Works of Faith.

Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Hebrews 10: 23-24. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

newmi:

Please can some people just simply wake form their prolonged slumber?
the expression ", Even Paul himself did not believe in christianity at the very beginning, " is inconsequencial. For God sake what bearing does that have on this topic of discuss, when the apostle paul himself revealed to us by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit ", that if a man be in Christ he is a new creation, "

2 corinthians 5:17
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

So how does what you've just said above impact on Joagbaje's claim that Paul was a superior christian to James, because James was a baby christian who didn't even believe in Jesus before.

Please can some people just simply wake form their prolonged slumber?
the expression ", Even Paul himself did not believe in christianity at the very beginning, " is inconsequencial. For God sake what bearing does that have on this topic of discuss, when the apostle paul himself revealed to us by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit ", that if a man be in Christ he is a new creation, "

I thought you were neutral all along,you just finally decided to take sides abi

2 corinthians 5:17
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

I think this quote should be reserved for joabgaje

Pastor AIO:

So how does what you've just said above impact on Joagbaje's claim that Paul was a superior christian to James, because James was a baby christian who didn't even believe in Jesus before.

please l would appreciate not to be dragged into muddy waters, be that as it may though, l believe the challenge here is in the use of words. It is inappropriate for anyone to make such comparisms using such expressions like such and such person is a superior christian than such and such other person, no we are not granted such expensive leaverages. On what grounds for instance? the walk of faith is for the most part person.

my emphasis here is simple-let us disassociate ourselves from expending so much of our God-given energies on less relevant and largely unimportant issues and concentrate on the aspect of us being built and raised on the foundations that has been laid down by these men. Consequently, THIS ASPECT OF THIS DISCUSS IS A WASTE!!!

chukwudi44:

@Joagbaje


Even Paul himself did not beleive in christianity at the very begining,so your post here makes no meaning.At least James converted before Paul

well that makes sense, but it's still didn't take the fact away that Paul had a special calling . James had title.

aletheia:

Joagbaje: why do you keep posting trash and lies? I pity the people that are under you as a pastor.This gets worse! What was Jesus' ministry? It was unique:
Matt 1:21. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
So this was family property that was inherited, passed on from father to son abi? The problem for you is that your own gospel is "food and drink gospel". Your god is your belly; that's why you make such astounding lying statements.

KJV: Romans 16:18. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
KJV: Philippians Chapter 3:18-19.
(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
^The same Acts 15 that you quoted so liberally from dismisses what you wrote above.
24. Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
^Where did I allege that you omitted fornication? Here is the post where I addressed these issues that you raised.^On that other thread you dismissed the commands as being "Law of Moses", while here you try to downgrade them to "requirements for half-proselytes". Same old tactic. Moreover where in Acts 19, does it distinguish between boy meets girl type of fornication and heathen worship with sex? Fornication is. . .fornication. So for you fornication is justifiable for Christians so long as it is the boy meets girl variety? Do you begin to see how unsustainable your eisegesis is? Those requirements predate Moses as you would know if you were acquainted with your bible as the Word of God rather than treating it as a financial manual.

I will ask you some questions.
#1. Where in James epistle do you find him advocating that new converts be circumcised? This was written by him, so it will be the clearest statement of his "doctrine"
#2. What is the difference between :
Paul who says here:
Gal 6:3-4. For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
And James who says also:
James 2:17-18. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Or all these other verses:

Matt 5:16. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Acts 9:36. Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did.
2 Cor 9:8. And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
Colossians 1:10. That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
2 Tim 3:17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Titus 2:7. In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
Titus 2:14. Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Titus 3: 18. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

^Apart from all the other verses from Paul's letters, look closely at the last verse above; FAITH(they which have believed in God)=>WORKS(be careful to maintain good works). Turns out Paul and James were not so different after all.

Your confusion arises from not distinguishing between the works of the Law and the works of Faith; as the Bible so clearly does. Neither James nor Paul nor any other Apostle of Jesus taught that we are justified by the works of the Law but they taught that True Faith=>Works of Faith.

Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Hebrews 10: 23-24. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

You throw derisive and sarcastic words and expect an answer. You leave major part and dwell on minors . What kind of doctor are you? How do we trust your diagnosis.

Joagbaje:

Don't rejoice too soon. I've been busy and I will respond soon. If Im proven wrong , it's not failure . I will only add to knowledge . I don't think I am wrong.

I am/was NOT rejoicing. That post was saddening to me as I typed it though I made it seem like fun. But it was neccessary because of the young innocents who would otherwise look up to you. My greatest wish for you would have been that you be held in the utmost respect here being a servant of God. However, you refuse to show any restraint, patience or wisdom when writing. Its like a deliberate desire to offend everyone with your twists of truth and conscience. And you make it so obvious that the gospel is about chris oyakilome's agendas whether in tune or not with what we know of God's Agenda.

If pastors like you did what they ought to do, God witness that people like me would keep quiet knowing our Father's work is being handled rightly and with honor. My "jests" that supposedly "make" fun of you are meant only to "force" you to look inwards and re-assess yourself. It might suprise you that my style FORCES me to keep on my toes so I do not end up a hypocrite saying yet not doing. That is what truth does - it truly is a double edged sword.

Purchase truth, brother, as the Bible says and sell it not for all the wealth on earth. And please despise the pride that keeps on making you fall here. "I am sorry" and "I was wrong" are not too much for you to say

Joagbaje:

You throw derisive and sarcastic words and expect an answer. You leave major part and dwell on minors . What kind of doctor are you? How do we trust your diagnosis.

^My patients trust my diagnosis. Please address the issues.
#1. Did you or did you not claim that James taught that Christians must be circumcised?
#2. Did you or did you not claim that James and Paul taught two different gospels?

Instead of you to address the bible verses that demolish your claims, all you saw in the post you are replying is "diagnosis".

But inherited Jesus ministry as his next of kin.

I don't know where you get these your claims. James inherited Jesus' ministry as next of kin. What exactly is this Jesus' ministry? Most of your claims have been answered but lets see what i can do before i sleep.

His words were rules so, if Peter had a contrary opinion, it didn't matter.James had spoken and his words were laws. He was an advocate of the jewish laws and customs, and he mixed them with christianity. He treated the gentile convert as proselytesProselytes were gentile converts to Judaism.

Each sentence here is false, how do you manage to do that?

he took over leadership since he was Jesus next of kin. And brought In his Jewish doctrine. Because Peter definitely would not be part of this. So they went into the background while James ran his course.

This one qualifies for old wives' fables. Where exactly did you read/receive these?

When some of the brethren from Judea invariably from james being their head accosted Paul and insisting that new converts must be circumcised as full proselytes to be saved. Remember paul referd to them as people from james.

I hope this is where you're missing it. The false brethren referred to in Galatians 2v4 are different from the certain who came from James in verse 12. They're different episodes altogether. As at verse 9,10, the council meeting don finish. In this case, the people from James didn't come teaching about circumcision(Acts 15v24 already debunks that accusation except you don't believe it). When the false brethren came, Paul and Barnabas disputed with them. When certain from James came, Barnabas was carried away.

At this point nothing was left for James to hold on to. Rules had to change. But he only stepped down from full,proselyte requirement to half proselyte in his judgement.

If you understand the above that i posted, things will fall in place. James was simply the one who read out the judgement, it wasn't just his personal view or judgement. It was the Holy Spirit's.
Acts 15v6. And THE APOSTLES AND ELDERS came together to consider the matter.
28. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things.
And you know the necessary things. Fare ye well.

He didn't allow James idea on meat to pollute his congregation. Colossians 2:16
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [ days]: 1 Corinthians 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol[ is] nothing in the world, and that[ there is] none other God but one.

What was written in Acts 15 was not just James' idea but the Holy Ghost(God)'s idea. We should learn to differentiate God's command from man's. Like i've said earlier, james and paul were saying the same thing, and complementing/completing not contradicting/competing with one another. Was it james that wrote 1Corinthians 10v21?
21. You CANNOT drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: you CANNOT be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
You think what's in Acts 15 is kindergarten stuff? Well maybe Jesus is kindergarten as well, and you're the graduate who just finished service right?
Revelation 2v20 20.Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

It was paul jesus gave the doctrine and revelation of the church to.Paul functioned at a very higher level of truth and knowledge he knew more than they all. Peter didn't deny the fact that Paul had strong meat for their teeth to chew.

Guy, i also love Paul. You know he's 'the apostle to the gentiles', for God's sake. But you just flattering him. He never claimed these things. The church existed and was doing fine when Paul was still busy breathing threatenings. Paul had strong meat but nobody except you said that it was too strong for the apostles to chew. Listen to Peter.
2Peter 3v15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul ALSO according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 AS ALSO in all his epistles, speaking in them of THESE THINGS; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
It's easy to see who was uneasy with Paul's writing, it wasn't an apostle.

aletheia:

^ Please address the issues.
#1. Did you or did you not claim that James taught that Christians must be circumcised?
#2. Did you or did you not claim that James and Paul taught two different gospels?

Paul was clear enough, these advocates were from James. Why didn't he call John or any of the apostles? They were from JAMES. Means "this is what James stand for". It was clear that Peter was not party to that idea.but fear . Fear of who? James. What James recommended for gentile Christian was based on an existing proselyte law. Full proselyte is circumcised , which was their initial stand. Half proselyte is not to be burden with circumcision but given certain rules.

There are two kinds of proselyte:
Ger tzedek (righteous proselytes, proselytes of righteousness, religious proselyte, devout proselyte)
Ger toshav (resident proselyte, proselytes of the gate, limited proselyte, half-proselyte)
A righteous proselyte[5] was a Gentile who had converted to Judaism, was bound to all the doctrines and precepts of the Jewish economy, and was considered a full member of the Jewish people. They were to be circumcised and immersed in a mikvah should they wish to eat of the Passover sacrifice. A gate proselyte[6] was a "resident alien" who lived in the Land of Israel and followed some of the customs. They were not required to be circumcised nor to comply with the whole of the Torah. They were bound only to conform to the seven precepts of Noah, the Noahide Laws: do not worship idols, do not blaspheme God's name, do not murder, do not commit immoral sexual acts, do not steal, do not tear the limb from a living animal, and do not fail to establish courts of justice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proselyte

You don't give rules to Christians or comandments for living. When Paul recounted the experience, he didn't dwell on those things.

Galatians 2:10
10 Only[ they would] that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.


Peter, who was supposed to be head of the church , was now relegated somehow to the point he was afraid of James men. He quickly fearfully switched sides. Not because he believed in James stand. But he was afraid. But Peter was to be the head.

#2. Did you or did you not claim that James and Paul taught two different gospels?

#2. Did you or did you not claim that James and Paul taught two different gospels?

I would prefer you quote from the post Youre making reference to.