Joagbaje:
A man is saved when he confess the lordship of Jesus over his life by faith . . . .  It is an instantaneous experience.

Na so! That's why Jesus said in Matthew 7

21[b]"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven[/b], but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Joagbaje:
Look at the three thousands that got saved on Pentecost day. It was instant.

While I am trying to be sympathetic to your point I think you need to better work it through. Thus, can you point to a passage that says the salvation of the 3000 was indeed instant? Acts 2 doesn't say so.

@Joagbaje

Your case is pathetic,you really need divine help.I must be sincere here and nobody should say I am judging you but with this kind of mindset youare walking straight to hell fire.I know I am not perfect but when Iam wrong I tryu to admit iam wrong .

A Christian is ordained to produce works . Which are fruits of righteousness.  But the issue is, he has to be a Christian first!. He has to be born again first! If not , his works of righteousness is vain. That is the problem is James writing[b] . A man is saved when he confess the lordship of Jesus over his life by faith . Work or no work[/b]. After he has been saved, he begins to know the will of God and produce works in his service unto God. He is saved already before his works can be acceptable. But James says the work will save and justifies a man! That is wrong. Faith only saves and justifies. It is an instantaneous experience. It is not in heaven we will get saved. Look at the three thousands that got saved on Pentecost day. It was instant.

I s this the kind of thing that is preached in christ embassy?If that is so then May I state here that we are confronting a heresy far greater than the arian heresy.This teaching is very dangerous and must not be left unchallenged.

How on earth can a christian read the bible and starts saying that verbally confessing JESUS as lord will get you to heaven.Honestly if this was the criteria to make heaven ,then we need not bother ince it isfar more easy than passing WAEC exams.

Even the three thousand that was baptised on the day of the pentecost where did you find in the bible that there are all saved?I f anyone of them had deviated from the faith at the time of their death ,what will keep them from going to hell fire?


Nicholas one of the seven helpers in the acts of the apostles was the founder of the niciolatians(according to st Ireneaus of lyons) which was condemned by Jesus.He started well but eventually lost focus,do you think his erlier works will save him?

what determines whether you are saved or not is the very state you were when you died.Salvation is a race which is only ended by death.It is the position you are when you died that will determine whether you are saved or not

Joagbaje:

@ Enigma, Altheia,

Maybe I should just ask you this; At what point does a man get saved.

I will answer you this way: try and grapple for a while with what apostle Paul was saying in 1 Cor 1:18ff

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

NKJV

I know that the KJV simply uses "saved" but see the following link for a proper sense of the passage: http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Cr&c=1&v=1&t=KJV#vrsn/18

Joagbaje:

A G.O may go to hell if he backslides and walks out of the grace of God. That is not anybodys business . It's between him and his God. If that happens , it doesn't mean the guy was never saved. He fell out maybe through etc. The fact that someone gets saved does not mean he will remain so. If he denies christ. He ceases to be a Christian. But that doesn't mean he was never saved. He lost his salvation

What exactly do you believe, Jo? Do you believe anything at all? For you have said here on NairaLand that once saved, you are saved for always SIMPLY because you confessed. You went so far as to say "even if a born-again sins, he is NOT a sinner and CAN NEVER be a sinner since his 'nature' is righteousness".   And now you post the above?   In effect, you are NOW saying, that a born again can become a sinner - so which one is it exactly? Do you realise a non-christian who sees the goal post in your arms is dancing "palongo" up and down will say this is delusion? Na wah O!  

Where are those dudes (fyneguy and the other daftguy) who follow this guy around NL supporting him yet leaving their brains home? It would be nice to see the story they'll come up with to reconcile the 2 extremes.

Sincerely, Jo-baby, you ought to join my 2 and half year old daughter's sunday school class and start the process all over again. Complement it all by learning the 26 letters of the alphabet all over again and take it easy - you need not hurry with this mental capability you have!

1Co 1:18(AMP)
(18)  For the story and message of the cross is sheer absurdity and folly to those who are perishing and on their way to perdition, but to us who are being saved it is the [manifestation of] the power of God.

1Co 1:18(BBE)
(18)  For the word of the cross seems foolish to those who are on the way to destruction; but to us who are on the way to salvation it is the power of God.

Joagbaje:

@ Enigma, Altheia,

Maybe I should just ask you this; At what point does a man get saved.

Getting saved is an ongoing process which is kick started by belief in Christ. Living the life expected of someone who has believed in Christ
is what maintains the salvation process.
Good works is evidence/proof of this life in Christ. These good works help maintain the faith and produce fruit which shows this faith we claim to have:

Titus 3:8
(  This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Titus 3:14
(14)  And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Joagbaje:

Enigma,
You're bringing another issue here , when you've not address issue on ground.  A G.O may go to hell if he backslides and walks out of the grace of God. That is not anybodys business . It's between him and his God. If that happens , it doesn't mean the guy was never saved. He fell out maybe through  etc. The fact that someone gets saved does not mean he will remain so. If he denies christ. He ceases to be a Christian. But that doesn't mean he was never saved. He lost his salvation

That is your error right there. You assume salvation is man's work; he confesses with his mouth (Romans 10) and he is instantly saved. Of course if salvation is a man's work, he can lose such "salvation".

What you fail to realise is that salvation is done by God Himself; it is God who does the saving; it is God who does the "borning-again"! Therefore anyone who God has saved cannot lose his salvation; anyone who God Himself has "born-again" cannot be "unborn-again" and cannot lose his salvation.

This is why you need to show that you are justified by faith and remain in the faith by examining your works. The apostle James really is your friend and taking his word to heart will help you ensure that you are not on the way to perdition.

But we are dealing with the issue of a man being saved by works. This is false doctrine. A man is saved by faith and he begins to produce good works.[/b]

True but only to an extent because of its context in light of next excerpt below. Here it suffices to say that yes a person is saved/justified by faith to do good works.

An unsaved man could produce good works but it will not earn him salvation. There is nothing a natural man will offer God that will be accepted until he gives his heart to God first.

Implicit in this is your arrogance (and ignorance for that matter) that the "saved" person is a person who says the "sinner's prayer" (confesses with mouth). It is God who saves and it is God who "borns again". The evidence of being born again is good fruit. It is possible that a person wo has not said your sinner's prayer (confession by mouth) but who is showing seriously good fruit is already saved/born-again by God Himself ------- when and how you know not!




[quote][/quote]

Enigma, nuclearboy, chukwudi, altheia,My question still stands,
At what point does a man get saved. Pls just give a straight answer.

^^^ None so blind as he who refuses to see!

@Joagabaje

Also, while you seem to have an aversion for Jesus' own words, take the following passage, put it in your pipe and smoke it.

Matthew 10:22

And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

nuclearBOY,

Take a chill pill nobody's against you-just you. You woulndt be doing you if you werent acting belligerent, i know. So do you to the best of you. ok
But heres a food for thought, at what point did you get saved? that is ofcourse, if you are. and what "good works" have you done that can outdo, say, Bill gates or Oprah Winfrey (the worlds self styled righteous or in your own assesment good working people). Also, the criminal at the side of Jesus what good works could he do to back his salvation (because according to Jesus, that man was saved) or maybe better still he got saved in heaven by "doing good works there".

Did you ever read of Cornelius, the bible says he was devout in praying to God and in giving alms yet peter had to be sent to tell him WORDS BY WHICH HE COULD BE SAVED, meaning he wasnt saved despite his good works.

Mr apprentice of those who follow truth, when the same lot said tongues had ended you didnt go against them oh! you kept your cool because its not really truth you stand for- you stand against what you FEEL isnt truth or shouldnt be truth-hypocrite! we(US CHRISTIANS) walk by Faith not by feelings. it doesnt matter whether you endorse it or not truth will always be truth.

Paul said by the inspiration of the holy spirit, "if a man believe in his heart that God raised Jesus from the dead and confess with his mouth the lordship of Jesus, such a man is SAVED. Mr big brains, doesnt it imply that such salvation is instantaneous? when will people understand that because a person stole something doesnt mean he/she is a thief, but if a person is a thief he must of neccessity steal something. in the same way, a persons good works only mean anything to his faith when such a person is already saved, but he has to get saved first and ONLY by his faith before he can produce the neccessary works of righteousness.

would have loved to say more but it wouldnt be pertinent now to you. i figured that you dont really know much about the life you say you have so i'ld let you grow at your pace. lol!!!

Rom 10:9
(9)  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

You shall be saved!!! It is very possible that this statement in the above statement is meant to be an instantaneous one, but
can anyone deny that it could also be a futuristic statement. See below:

"If you pay me $10,000 right now, you shall get a Toyota Camry." says a car dealer you met at a party.
"Ok." you say,and then within a few minutes;with the aid of your black berry and the internet, you wire/transfer $10,000 to the car dealers account
The car dealer acknowledges this payment by his own blackberry.You shake hands.

In two days time, the toyota camry was delivered to you.

Now, the car dealer made it clear that upon payment,you would get a car.Payment was made,but did you get the car instantaneously?
No! !
You got the car in two days time.
Meaning that upon doing what he requested, you only got a guarantee of getting the car.

That is exactly what "you shall be saved" means; you get a guarantee of being saved.

This is heavily supported by reading such a verse in line with 1 corinthians 1:18:

1Co 1:18(BBE)
(18)  For the word of the cross seems foolish to those who are on the way to destruction; but to us who are on the way to salvation it is the power of God.

1Co 1:18(AMP)
(18)  For the story and message of the cross is sheer absurdity and folly to those who are perishing and on their way to perdition, but to us who are being saved it is the [manifestation of] the power of God.

@ttalks:

Thank you - thats a brilliant way of putting it for these addle-brained coyotes. How much further does a mind backed by a brain, have to go to realise that your actions AFTER the party will determine if you get the car.

[1] what if you cancel the transaction (most bank transfers can be confirmed on the spot but will conclude in 24 - 48 hours)
[2] what if you change your mind and say to the dealer the next day "hey I want a motor-cycle instead"

Do you still get the car? But this audience lost reasoning powers due to greed and can't reach that far - they won't accept truth

@mba_emeka:

Salvation is a gift of God, seen by men, MANIFESTING in the life of the saved as works. Now, did you ever hear the words "wilderness experience"? Have you ever considered that most humans who turn out truly great for humanity went through such experiences at one time or other? Why? The likelihood has passed you by that they fulfil God's Word of having "been refined in the furnace of affliction", hasn't it? Such people included Moses, Elijah, Christ Himself and many more to this day. The verses posted above by Enigma show salvation is a process not a "confession"! How sure are you that Oprah and Gates WILL not eventually end up where you are starting to realise might be just a fantasy to your expectation. Have they ended their race yet?

Confession is a small part of the process. Works concludes it. You prove your confession (OR disprove it) by what follows it! ! ! How hard is that to get?

You people ought to read Pilgrim's Progress. Whist not the Bible, it gives understanding that will help you much. But do you really want understanding? Are you ready to give up the show your "lives" are? Stick with the show - just do NOT call yourselves Christians cos you're "yaps-yakians".

You speak of Cornelius - did you ever consider that we're talking of God (not your swivel hipped hair-dresser) WHO sees the spirit in man because He made it Himself? Cornelius was described. So was Herod! Why didn't God send to Herod then if works meant nothing?

BTW, so you can't even read? I said "I have spoken in tongues before"! How does that mean I do not believe in the experience? Please stop "LOL"ing here and being daft. The only thing laughable here is the thought that you have something aside air between your ears. And that you think yourself a christian.

- nuclear[size=18pt]BOY[/size] (boy with 200 times your brain power and 5000 times your knowledge of God and truth)

When Christ said the Holy Spirit was going to come and teach the Apostles stuff, he meant that the Holy Spirit would
expand on what he had already taught them.

That is why we read Christ's words and get more insight through the teachings of the apostles.
One portion of the bible is not enough to build a theory upon.
You read every other aspect to get a balanced teaching to decipher the true and complete point being passed across.

The salvation process is kick started upon belief in Christ(guarantee given), it is gone through by the living of the life expected of a person
who has believed upon Christ(ensuring that one's eligibility for the guarantee is valid), and the process is completed when we get our reward at the end(materialisation of the guarantee).

@nuclearboy

In fact the Cornelius example was a poor case of shooting oneself in the foot. Let us look at the sequence

- Cornelius was a "non-Christian" who feared God and did good works
- He did not know or believe in Christ (an "unbel" or "umbel" according to Rhapsody of eRoRs people)
- An angel of the Lord appeared to this unbeliever who did not know/believe Christ
- The angel said in Acts 10:4:

Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

Meanwhile, see how that flatly contradicts Joagabje's attitude to the good works of an "unbeliever" or "unsaved" person!

- Peter is sent to Cornelius' household
- Hear what Peter said there (Acts 10:34,35

Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

- While Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius and his household.


When did Cornelius and his household "confess with their mouths"? When did they say the "sinner's prayer"? When were they "saved" --- that God gave them the Holy Spirit?

Again: when was Cornelius and his household saved?

When did Cornelius and his household become "born again"?

I will address the scriptures you wrongly quoted,you seem to be dodging my question. Pl ls without long grammar . At what point does a man get saved? just answer me in one sentence.

^^^
@Joagbaje

Just go and sit down, get your Bible and read it. Do NOT look into Rhapsody of erRoRs or any other CEC material and your eyes will start to open.

ttalks:


The salvation process is kick started upon belief in Christ(guarantee given), it is gone through by the living of the life expected of a person
who has believed upon Christ(ensuring that one's eligibility for the guarantee is valid), and the process is completed when we get our reward at the end(materialisation of the guarantee).

I like one way in which some have put it thus: "We have been saved, we are being saved and we will be saved"!

Engma,
Seeing that youre very evasive but i will still ask you this.If a man accepts christ on death bed. Where will he go if he dies that day. Heaven or hell?

^^^ You have not yet done your assignment! And you have not answered a number of questions I posed.

So, call me 'evasive' all you like --- but after doing so look at the mirror; see if you are able to look yourself in the eye through the mirror.

Enigma.
Pls list out your questions let me answer them one time. But I need you to answer my last post me so that I can treat all together. I'm not setting you up for trashing. I'm very lenient. Na you dye quarrel

To see my questions, you only need to look at my posts of this morning on this thread!

what point does a man get saved? just answer me in one sentence.

A man is saved only when he dies in a state of grace i.e(in a state of spiritual purity with jesus)


This implies that at the point of his death,he is in good terms with Jesus.It is the state in which you die that determines whether you are saved or not.

^^^^lol and which scripture will you use to back this up?

Remember, Faith without works can not save o LOL

So which scripture says Faith only can save a man who gives his life at the point of death?

Joagbaje:
Take a deep breath, calm down and go back and study the bible.
Your post below shows confusion:

Joagbaje:

Enigma,
You're bringing another issue here , when you've not address issue on ground. A G.O may go to hell if he backslides and walks out of the grace of God. That is not anybodys business . It's between him and his God. If that happens , it doesn't mean the guy was never saved. He fell out maybe through etc. The fact that someone gets saved does not mean he will remain so. If he denies christ. He ceases to be a Christian. But that doesn't mean he was never saved. He lost his salvation

But we are dealing with the issue of a man being saved by works. This is false doctrine. A man is saved by faith and he begins to produce good works. An unsaved man could produce good works but it will not earn him salvation. There is nothing a natural man will offer God that will be accepted until he gives his heart to God first.

^
#1. When I say that faith is proven by its works; you and 5solas try to turn it into an argument that I am saying people are justified by their works even though I have repeatedly stated that no man is justified by his or her works but by the righteousness of Jesus.

#2. You say a man is saved by faith and faith alone and yet go ahead to state this: A G.O may go to hell if he backslides and walks out of the grace of God.[. . .]He lost his salvation
Apparently you are confused as to the nature of salvation: It is 100% of God with zero input from man. . .hence no true believer in Christ will lose salvation-because it does not depend on any effort of his. The irony of it all is that you claim that a man is saved by faith and then turn around to imply that by his efforts, he remains saved!

KJV: John 1:13. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

KJV: John 17:12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

KJV: Hebrews 7:25. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

If the G.O goes to hell, it means he was never saved in the first place. To you an unsaved man may produce "good works" but to God these were never good works:

Please meditate on and understand the meaning of this scripture:
Matt 7:18. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
In fact, let's look at the context of the verse:

KJV: Matthew Chapter 7:17-23.
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Eefin niwa (character is as smoke & cannot be hidden) - The fruit of confusion and milk-knowledge is so SO obvious on this thread

chukwudi44:

A man is saved only when he dies in a state of grace i.e(in a state of spiritual purity with jesus)
This implies that at the point of his death,he is in good terms with Jesus.It is the state in which you die that determines whether you are saved or not.

Well I will like to thank you for your courage. We can start from somewhere .

@ Pastor Joagbaje

Have you now done the assignment? If you are struggling, let me give you a little further help.

Acts 2:47

And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

NKJV

Your so called assignment is not clear to me, I said you should outline them. All I could see is Matt 7: what exactly do you want me to explain?

^^^

OK I will indulge you a little and I will keep it simple.

1. You said the salvation of the 3000 in Acts 2 was "instant" ---- so I asked you for proof of that statement. (Please remember that I have now quoted passages saying people were being saved.

2. Another question I raised (even if not directed at you specifically) --- when exactly was Cornelius and his household "saved" or "born again"?

3. Did the "borning again" of Cornelius and his household involve them making a "confession by mouth"?


Start with those.

On the thief at the Crucifixion. Consider the following scenario -

[1] A chap is born dirt poor but very nice, kind hearted, etc
[2] Opportunities pass him by all his life but he remains "basically" good at heart
[3] On a visit to a friend one day, he is convinced to join a robbery because of desperation (maybe his mum was ill)
[4] He is arrested with his friends
[4] He is sentenced to death for being a thief
[5] On the cross, he meets Jesus and again, his natural self comes through and he pities the innocent Jesus accepting his own guilt
[6] Christ, knowing all about him, gives him salvation as a gift.

But then, what you people believe is that since he was not a pharisee screaming "I bind you" and kabashing in the marketplace, that he was worthless. What you portray is myopia.

You cannot see past your nose to understand that things are not always what they seem at first sight and that Jesus didn't do things flashily or on impulse but deliberately, surely, knowing the background, current status and end result. It is the same problem that makes you insist that whatever you want must come when it might actually be the worst thing for you. Thats why such as Agaba stole - they believed it would force God's Hand to bless them. Simple Myopia and here it is again displayed for all to see.

Lol Nuclearboy

Dont mind Joagbaje jare.

Íf only he knew you were the thief who was given Salvation as a gift, but was sent back to us to explain why Jesus saved you without any works to show for it, he would keep quiet forever.

Joagbaje, please do have some regard for this saved thief oops man o.

Nice that you know I am/was the thief and that I WAS GIVEN SALVATION - ergo I AM saved! Better a saved thief than

[1] A hair-frying criminal chalartan posing as a pastor
[2] A pharisee who threw his brains away and follows the unsaved "criminal" above rather than a saved one LIKE me
[3] A representative of [1] who is celebrated by [2]

So, when are you coming over to my side, God's side?  Christ will still accept you, you know! 

fyneguy:

Lol Nuclearboy

Dont mind Joagbaje jare.

Íf only he knew you were the thief who was given Salvation as a gift, but was sent back to us to explain why Jesus saved you without any works to show for it, he would keep quiet forever.
Joagbaje, please do have some regard for this saved thief oops man o.