shadeyinka:

A certain factor is overwhelming in our final position with the spiritual and that is PERSONAL CHOICE!
We choose either to believe in the EXISTENCE of God and what our RELATIONSHIP with Him should be THEN based on our choices, we either become (rightly or wrongly) BLIND or AWARE of the Spiritual.

Seek and you shall find....

Well, maybe it was God's design to make me ultimately reject Christianity. Ever thought of that?

What say you about the concepts of predestination & free will?

When you see some Human beings exhibiting some level of wickedness, you wonder why Hell shouldn't exist. A few days ago, someone sent me a recorded murder of a young girl by two men. As one was cutting off the head of the pleading girl the other was stabbing her stomach several times with a knife. I couldn't bare to watch this barbarians commit such. If I had my way as a judge, the two men must experience great pain and fear as part of their judgement.

Hell isn't a blanket judgement for disbelievers. Hell is a place for the rejected ones. Even within hell, there are categories. The only problem is that TIME doesn't EXIST in the spirit. Relative to earth's time, we would say "for ever and ever!". But in reality, time doesn't exist.

Nevermind the legitimacy of an extra dimension called hell (that's a whole other argument), Its easy to wish hell exists because of what you said.

However, God is supposed to be the designer, isn't he? He is the FIRST cause according to you. So where did evil come from? Cos i think we can both agree that hell wouldn't exist in the absence of evil

Agreed, almost ALL spiritual experiences are Subjective: and just like dreams, make deep impressions that cannot be discarded nor shared as "reality" with someone else. Each person must have his/her own experiences.

Like you don't believe in demons because it's impossible to believe in the existence of demons and reject the reality of other spirits. Horror movies have not helped things either by presenting "an embellished and extreme" view as normal. Scientists would want to treat apparent demonic cases as psychological cases...and sometimes, choose to normalize what is abnormal eg. Homosexuality.

....which is why we should learn to distinguish subjective reality from objective reality. I can't devalue my "subjective reality" by believing your "subjective reality".

Being a Christian doesn't make me judge either. But I have an obligation to show people around the FREE gift of God and to show that we reap what we have planted: of course that humans do NOT die: we only change state.

Interestingly, as one who is Born Again, the least of your worries is hell. But how can one know about but keep quiet of the calamity that is to befall the earth's inhabitants and be guiltless?

"Said calamity was brought by god!", I argue

Concerning the bolded; ...don't you think everything makes sense from the point of view of the Designer/Builder of everything?

Now, look at our homes. We plant flowers round the house and even some in the house. Do you think it is possible for the flower to rationalize it's purpose in the house? Everything makes sense from the point of view of the Creator!

Supposing he exists, yes! Of course it should make sense to him! Isn't he the designer? Not only that but he's supposedly all powerful & infinite!

The question is does it make sense to us?. Now i don't know about the answer to that. I for one know for a fact that this unimaginably massive universe is almost everywhere unsuitable for life. And it took literally billions of years before the earth was made, and another "billions of years" before man showed up. If god truly gave a sh!t about you & me when he was creating the universe, couldn't he just have started with life?

Another thing i do know is that the creation of a vast space like the universe, complete with laws of physics should require logical thought process. Or do you think its random? I don't, mate. If god can't follow a logical thought process, then that just means the laws of the universe were the results of a dice roll. Of course, such random behaviour of the universe explains away the existence of a god, but that's not the point...

.....what is logic since it obviously predates the supposed first cause? What is this thing called "logic" that even the "first cause" is subject to?

Speaking about CHOICES; our choices just remains as such because it doesn't change the REALITY (rightly perceived or not). Like a blind person can shut out the reality of the existence of stars because none of his senses can detect stars but it doesn't make the reality invalid.

Also speaking about CHOICES, i argue that the blindness of said person is no fault of his own....

Proverbs 16:4 easily comes to mind here

Martinez39:
If something is spiritual and cannot be seen or felt, on what basis would one believe in that thing if not by assumption? I could say there is a spiritual unicorn with a rainbow coloured skin and twelve legs, would you believe that or expect anyone to just because the unicorn is spiritual and can't be tested?

What if what created the universe are simply physical substances that are eternal; have no beginning/origin and they have a property such that certain physical conditions would cause them to explode and yield the big bang? What if such substances are rare and haven’t been discovered and are far away in space beyond our reach? What if these substance had no duplicate elsewhere and can no longer be found since they've been used up in creating our universe? If you think god can exist without begin created then why can't these particles exist without being created?

My point is that a god is not the only possible way our reality could have come to be. Not only that, your god is an illogical and stupid explanation of the origin of things. If it turns out that there is an intelligent mind behind our origin, what makes you think that such intelligent mind would turn out to be the god of the bible?

No one knows how it all began and there is no logical connection between any religious god and the origin of the universe. It's only with assumptions, faith, stupidity, arrogance and ignorance that one would insist one knows how it all came to be; that a god is behind it; that god is the god of one's holy book and one knows his will. If not a must to have all the answers. If you don't know something, admit you don't know. The fact that atheists and scientists don't know how it all began doesn't mean that the bible is correct.

You have to wake up from this nonsense. You are not getting any younger. Is this how you want to live your life believing and devoting so much to something that isn't real and is very stupid? What sound evidences do you have for your god? None. Mtewwwww. Can you show us SOMETHING that doesn't obey natural laws? You can't.

Loooool... Calm down bro. But I really feel u.

@u ain't getting younger, got me cracking

Martinez39:
What he is trying to do is this:
>STEP 1 : tell you that you believe in something, say X, without evidence but mere belief.
>STEP 2 : tell you that since you believe in X without evidence then it's okay to believe in his god without evidence.
>STEP 3 : therefore his god exists.

Lol... He definitely thinks everyone is stupid

So sorry for the late reply. My today had been hectic!

IAmSabrina:

Well, maybe it was God's design to make me ultimately reject Christianity. Ever thought of that?

What say you about the concepts of predestination & free will?


Nevermind the legitimacy of an extra dimension called hell (that's a whole other argument), Its easy to wish hell exists because of what you said.

However, God is supposed to be the designer, isn't he? He is the FIRST cause according to you. So where did evil come from? Cos i think we can both agree that hell wouldn't exist in the absence of evil

Nope!
It was God's design that you have Free Will and Volition. It was God's will that there would consequences of your choices and Volition.

Rejecting Christ was a choice YOU made?

Predestination:
The only predestination I know has to do with foreknowledge.
To him whom God has foreknown, He predestined to conform to the image of His dear Son.

Every other thing is a function of Inheritances, Environment and Choices.

Freewill is decisions leading to actions you make out of options , temptations and constraints around you. A necessary condition of freewill is positive and negative consequences for where there is no law, there is no SIN

IAmSabrina:

....which is why we should learn to distinguish subjective reality from objective reality. I can't devalue my "subjective reality" by believing your "subjective reality".


"Said calamity was brought by god!", I argue


Supposing he exists, yes! Of course it should make sense to him! Isn't he the designer? Not only that but he's supposedly all powerful & infinite!

The question is does it make sense to us?. Now i don't know about the answer to that. I for one know for a fact that this unimaginably massive universe is almost everywhere unsuitable for life. And it took literally billions of years before the earth was made, and another "billions of years" before man showed up. If god truly gave a sh!t about you & me when he was creating the universe, couldn't he just have started with life?

Another thing i do know is that the creation of a vast space like the universe, complete with laws of physics should require logical thought process. Or do you think its random? I don't, mate. If god can't follow a logical thought process, then that just means the laws of the universe were the results of a dice roll. Of course, such random behaviour of the universe explains away the existence of a god, but that's not the point...

.....what is logic since it obviously predates the supposed first cause? What is this thing called "logic" that even the "first cause" is subject to?

No body says one should live solely by subjective realities after all we are physical beings whose makeup include the Spirit. Subjective realities for the things that are Subjective and Objective realities for the things that are objective.

It's just like, we are logical beings at the same time, we are emotional beings. Situations determine which mode of the two we place ourselves.


Calamity brought by God!?
No! Consequences of actions at play it is. Gravity is a law which is not evil but gravity will not respect my ignorance if I jump down from a 13 storey building.

The other form of calamity you may speak of is natural disasters like hurricane, earth quakes land slides. These are just following the laws of nature. Crack in the tectonic plates could cause shifting of the earth as a result of differential pressures etc. Was this part of the design? I don't know. I can only say that the earth began to work against man since he lost control through sin. It now takes real work and effort for man to create order in the world.

I am not sure I understand the bolded. However, I can see several laws binding the smallest of matter and galaxies. Vast Emptiness of space may matter to physical beings but time and space is irrelevant in the spiritual. There may be things difficult to understand like why should their be 8 barren planets round our sun. Why millions of stars: but they look beautiful don't they. I don't know if God was creating a work of art or not. Somethings we'll get to know after death.

Logics is the capacity a living conscious being have. So, logics couldn't have predated the First Cause. Logics is just part of the nature of a conscious being.

IAmSabrina:

Also speaking about CHOICES, i argue that the blindness of said person is no fault of his own....

Proverbs 16:4 easily comes to mind here

There are several causes of blindness. It could be through genetic inheritance, blindness through accidents, misuse of drugs, errors or bodily harm by someone else.

In the case of spiritual blindness, it could be induced (Citizens of North Korea) or self inflicted (IAmSabrina). All cases of spiritual blindness is sponsored directly or indirectly by demons.

shadeyinka:
So sorry for the late reply. My today had been hectic!

Nope!
It was God's design that you have Free Will and Volition. It was God's will that there would consequences of your choices and Volition.

Rejecting Christ was a choice YOU made?

Predestination:
The only predestination I know has to do with foreknowledge.
To him whom God has foreknown, He predestined to conform to the image of His dear Son.

Every other thing is a function of Inheritances, Environment and Choices.

Freewill is decisions leading to actions you make out of options , temptations and constraints around you. A necessary condition of freewill is positive and negative consequences for where there is no law, there is no SIN

Likewise @bolded

Now back on topic, you do realize what you just said, right?

If this is how it works then any time god chooses not to intervene in Sabrina's heart he is basically saying, "Screw Sabrina. I don't like her!."

If god, in this scenario, is all-knowing then he is willingly creating people knowing he's never going to intervene in their heart. He is creating people just to condemn them. If the responsibility is on god to intervene in people's hearts to save them then he has an obligation to either intervene for everyone or ditch the idea of Hell altogether. No one chooses to be born, so for him to purposefully create someone he eventually has no intention of saving makes him a monster!

No body says one should live solely by subjective realities after all we are physical beings whose makeup include the Spirit. Subjective realities for the things that are Subjective and Objective realities for the things that are objective.

It's just like, we are logical beings at the same time, we are emotional beings. Situations determine which mode of the two we place ourselves.

Situation does determine that, don't it?

[size=6pt]Calamity brought by God!?
No! Consequences of actions at play it is. Gravity is a law which is not evil but gravity will not respect my ignorance if I jump down from a 13 storey building.

Consequences of actions he was aware or unaware of?

The other form of calamity you may speak of is natural disasters like hurricane, earth quakes land slides. These are just following the laws of nature. Crack in the tectonic plates could cause shifting of the earth as a result of differential pressures etc. Was this part of the design? I don't know. I can only say that the earth began to work against man since he lost control through sin. It now takes real work and effort for man to create order in the world.

@bold would have been a good answer if god wasn't the author of said sin. And please don't say he isn't the author, you'd be restricting his omnipotence then.

Logics is the capacity a living conscious being have. So, logics couldn't have predated the First Cause. Logics is just part of the nature of a conscious being.

Actually logic is independent of human consciousness. Logic is a fabric of reality.

Logic is no more wrong than gravity. People may ignore gravity and people speak of overcoming gravity but, in fact, going up in a balloon or airplane breaks no law of gravity. The same with logic. You can make mistakes in your attempts at logic but you cannot do anything that contradicts logic.

People often confuse common sense with logic. Common sense is sometimes/often wrong. Logic is never wrong.

So again, where did logic come from?

There are several causes of blindness. It could be through genetic inheritance, blindness through accidents, misuse of drugs, errors or bodily harm by someone else.

In the case of spiritual blindness, it could be induced (Citizens of North Korea) or self inflicted (IAmSabrina). All cases of spiritual blindness is sponsored directly or indirectly by demons.

If your god never knew i'd eventually end up an atheist, he's not omniscient
If your god can do nothing to alter my destiny, then he lacks omnibenevolence and/or omnipotence
Please consider and fully understand what "omni" means before you offer a rebuttal.

IAmSabrina:

Likewise @bolded

Now back on topic, you do realize what you just said, right?

If this is how it works then any time god chooses not to intervene in Sabrina's heart he is basically saying, "Screw Sabrina. I don't like her!."

If god, in this scenario, is all-knowing then he is willingly creating people knowing he's never going to intervene in their heart. He is creating people just to condemn them. If the responsibility is on god to intervene in people's hearts to save them then he has an obligation to either intervene for everyone or ditch the idea of Hell altogether. No one chooses to be born, so for him to purposefully create someone he eventually has no intention of saving makes him a monster!

Hasn't God intervened in the heart of IAmSabrina?
God knew that you are weak and cannot make the pass mark by your strength. He sent Jesus to activate the law of substitution by sacrifice so that you would receive life with Him as a gift.

The only requirement from IAmSabrina is to want a life with God, living for Him and accepting His gift by faith.

Now, if you never heard the gospel, that's a different kettle of fish for you'll be judged according to your conscience.

God created people of free will so that He could select those who has His desirable trait. So, choose to be useful to God and you shall not be discarded.

IAmSabrina:


Situation does determine that, don't it?

Consequences of actions he was aware or unaware of?
@bold would have been a good answer if god wasn't the author of said sin. And please don't say he isn't the author, you'd be restricting his omnipotence then.

Guns don't kill, people do.
Sin do not commit themselves, people do.
What is sin?
Sin just means violating devine order and regulation for having perfect order.

IAmSabrina:

Actually logic is independent of human consciousness. Logic is a fabric of reality.

Logic is no more wrong than gravity. People may ignore gravity and people speak of overcoming gravity but, in fact, going up in a balloon or airplane breaks no law of gravity. The same with logic. You can make mistakes in your attempts at logic but you cannot do anything that contradicts logic.

People often confuse common sense with logic. Common sense is sometimes/often wrong. Logic is never wrong.

So again, where did logic come from?

Except we have different definition of the word Logics. Logics has to do with deductive reasonings.

IAmSabrina:

If your god never knew i'd eventually end up an atheist, he's not omniscient
If your god can do nothing to alter my destiny, then he lacks omnibenevolence and/or omnipotence
Please consider and fully understand what "omni" means before you offer a rebuttal.

At a certain age, a child is supposed to be able to make his independent choices and ALSO to face the consequences of his/her actions.

If you despise God during the 100 years you are to live on earth, would it be fair for God to force you to be with Him in eternity? Why should God give you Volition and at the same time force you to be what you don't one.

shadeyinka:

Hasn't God intervened in the heart of I.Am.Sabrina?
God knew that you are weak and cannot make the pass mark by your strength. He sent Jesus to activate the law of substitution by sacrifice so that you would receive life with Him as a gift.

This god knew I was weak, huh? Wow....
Pray tell, where did the weakness come from? Who enabled that feeling of weakness?

God created people of free will so that He could select those who has His desirable trait. So, choose to be useful to God and you shall not be discarded.

But god already knows those who'll be useful and who wouldn't! Why the need to create thus select? Why does god even have to "create"? I thought he's a perfect being. Hasn't he already attained perfection, could he be dissatisfied for some reason?

Guns don't kill, people do.
Sin do not commit themselves, people do.
What is sin?
Sin just means violating devine order and regulation for having perfect order.

Except we are the "Guns" & your god is the "people".
Guns don't want to kill, it is the wielder who pulls their trigger....

Except we have different definition of the word Logics. Logics has to do with deductive reasonings.

......Except there isn't one sole definition for Logic. Logic has many types: deductive, inductive, abductive, boolean, modeling, black box problems, problem solving.....

At a certain age, a child is supposed to be able to make his independent choices and ALSO to face the consequences of his/her actions.

If you despise God during the 100 years you are to live on earth, would it be fair for God to force you to be with Him in eternity? Why should God give you Volition and at the same time force you to be what you don't one.

I dunno. You tell me @bolded

IAmSabrina:

This god knew I was weak, huh? Wow....
Pray tell, where did the weakness come from? Who enabled that feeling of weakness?


But god already knows those who'll be useful and who wouldn't! Why the need to create thus select? Why does god even have to "create"? I thought he's a perfect being. Hasn't he already attained perfection, could he be dissatisfied for some reason?


Except we are the "Guns" & your god is the "people".
Guns don't want to kill, it is the wielder who pulls their trigger....


......Except there isn't one sole definition for Logic. Logic has many types: deductive, inductive, abductive, boolean, modeling, black box problems, problem solving.....


I dunno. You tell me @bolded

About weakness, let me tell you what the scriptures say (paraphrased).

God made man perfect. Man was to exercise dominion over all things He had made including spirit being. There was just one instruction; "Do not violate my instructions, for on the day you do, you'll be disconnected from Me!". The first humans disobeyed God and was disconnected. The effect of sin came in including loosing his spiritual powers and authority, becoming weak and helpless. In other words, the spiritual DNA of man was corrupted like man was infected with the virus. Through inheritance, the virus got down to you. Hence you are weak. God didn't make man weak, the consequence of sin did.

On foreknowledge, I've always told you, volition /freewill must be tested whenever there are consequences for certain actions. Like if you bought your 19 year old son a car, you don't limit the maximum speed to 50miles/h by crippling the car. You'll simply tell your son, do not drive this car above 50miles/h because you could loose control and cause damage to yourself, your car and others. It was God desire to make freewilled people with the attendant consequences. If God wanted robots, He would have made us such.

Man is he who commits atrocities. He pulls the trigger. He uses his will. Guns don't have minds of their own.

...Except there isn't one sole definition for Logic. Logic has many types: deductive, inductive, abductive, boolean, modeling, black box problems, problem solving.....

And all the above is a product of the conscious intelligent mind. Hence logic cannot predate the First Cause.

shadeyinka:

About weakness, let me tell you what the scriptures say (paraphrased).

God made man perfect. Man was to exercise dominion over all things He had made including spirit being. There was just one instruction; "Do not violate my instructions, for on the day you do, you'll be disconnected from Me!". The first humans disobeyed God and was disconnected. The effect of sin came in including loosing his spiritual powers and authority, becoming weak and helpless. In other words, the spiritual DNA of man was corrupted like man was infected with the virus. Through inheritance, the virus got down to you. Hence you are weak. God didn't make man weak, the consequence of sin did.

On foreknowledge, I've always told you, volition /freewill must be tested whenever there are consequences for certain actions. Like if you bought your 19 year old son a car, you don't limit the maximum speed to 50miles/h by crippling the car. You'll simply tell your son, do not drive this car above 50miles/h because you could loose control and cause damage to yourself, your car and others. It was God desire to make freewilled people with the attendant consequences. If God wanted robots, He would have made us such

Are you saying it is impossible for God to create robots and give them the illusion of free will? I think an omnibenevolent god knowing that there will be terrible consequences for certain actions won't permit said consequence any chance of occuring.....

Man is he who commits atrocities. He pulls the trigger. He uses his will. Guns don't have minds of their own.

Can man commit atrocities if your god didn't enable him with the capacity to do so? What is the use of free will when the god already knows the decision you're going to make?

And all the above is a product of the conscious intelligent mind. Hence logic cannot predate the First Cause.

See, Shadeyinka, Logic is like Physics. As i said before, its part and parcel of our reality....

If we find out today that a supposed law of physics has been broken, then that just proves that we've been wrong about what the laws of physics are. If that happened, we have to re-examine and change our list of the laws of physics.

If anyone ever did find a rule of logic to be wrong then that would be an indication that we are mistaken about what the laws of logic are.

So, Shadeyinka, I dunno bout you but I'm unaware of any known accepted rules of logic that has ever been broken. Then again, Sabrina's very naive on this issue so do let me know if anyone has ever found any rule of logic that has ever been broken

beatmonster:


Why do you believe in God without proof?

Stupid, isn't it, believing without proof! Would anyone ask me to believe I had a three course meal and that I'm full when I have no evidence of eating?

That's why I do not believe without proof.

beatmonster:

Why do you believe in God without proof?

Why do you believe that your birthday is the day you were born?
Can you proof you were born that day?

IAmSabrina:

Are you saying it is impossible for God to create robots and give them the illusion of free will? I think an omnibenevolent god knowing that there will be terrible consequences for certain actions won't permit said consequence any chance of occuring.....

Can man commit atrocities if your god didn't enable him with the capacity to do so? What is the use of free will when the god already knows the decision you're going to make?

All you are saying is like an accusation to your parent because you didn't ask to be born. Shouldn't they have used condom?

God doesn't want Robots QED!
The Planets, Stars etc are enough robots if God needed robots.

What excuse would you have if people far much less endowed than you pass Gods exam. Like I've always told you, this world is a place of selection of humans with a certain desirable trait to God.

IAmSabrina:

See, Shadeyinka, Logic is like Physics. As i said before, its part and parcel of our reality....

If we find out today that a supposed law of physics has been broken, then that just proves that we've been wrong about what the laws of physics are. If that happened, we have to re-examine and change our list of the laws of physics.

If anyone ever did find a rule of logic to be wrong then that would be an indication that we are mistaken about what the laws of logic are.

So, Shadeyinka, I dunno bout you but I'm unaware of any known accepted rules of logic that has ever been broken. Then again, Sabrina's very naive on this issue so do let me know if anyone has ever found any rule of logic that has ever been broken

I guess our definition of Logics is most likely not the same.
Let me give you an example of logics:

If "A" is at the same temperature as "B" and "B" has the same temperature as "C", then "A" must have the same temperature as "C".

If I get you correctly you said logics must predate the First Cause. And I said how can that be, because logics is a thought process that must have belonged to the First Cause who made things according to rules. Logics is meaningless without a conscious intelligent mind doing his mind exercise on his environment.

Believing in God without proof is like building a house on a sandy foundation, when the rain falls it is washed away. Those with Christ build on solid rock, and by solid rock is meant "solid proof". You can identify us by our [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7%3A16-20&version=KJV]fruits[/url] better and not by the beliefs you think we hold on to in our heads. They are like soil on which seeds fall and produced fruits a hundredfold, sixtyfold, or thirtyfold.

If there is no fruit, there must indeed and most definitely be no gods, but you can't be checking with a faulty photometer you don't know how to use and trust your results! You must first ensure you have done the "science" of it, which is, have the ears to hear the seeds and the eyes to see the fruits it grows into. Otherwise, experimenting is rather pointless!

budaatum:
Believing in God without proof is like building a house on a sandy foundation, when the rain falls it is washed away. Those with Christ build on solid rock, and by solid rock is meant "solid proof". You can identify us by our [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7%3A16-20&version=KJV]fruits[/url] better and not by the believes you think we hold on to in our heads. They are like soil on which seeds fall and produced a fruits a hundredfold, sixtyfold, or thirtyfold.

If there is no fruit, there must indeed and most definitely be no gods, but you can't be checking with a faulty photometer you don't know how to use and trust your results! You must first ensure you have done the "science" of it, which is have the ears to hear the seeds and the eyes to see the fruits it grows into, otherwise, experimenting is rather pointless!

Cc. Shadeyinka

IAmSabrina:

Cc. Shadeyinka

Satan always twists the scriptures as one of his disciples tried to do now. So, according to the scriptures, what is the solid rock?

Matthew 7:24-27
24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”

Every one who hears the WORD and DOES them.

shadeyinka:

Satan always twists the scriptures as one of his disciples tried to do now. So, according to the scriptures, what is the solid rock?

Matthew 7:24-27
24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”

Every one who hears the WORD and DOES them.

Cc. Budaatum