This topic is tricky and i am going to present it with some hypothetical scenarios.

So, it is no news that there are two main thought classes on what a man is, on one hand you have;

Man is spirit class: this posits the existence of an eternal transcendent soul which is the true man, this position posits that the body is just like a cocoon the spirit drives and at death, the spirit abandons this cocoon and goes back to its original state.

Man is matter class: This school of thought argues man is just matter and nothing else. Consciousness is a product of an intricately highly arranged matter.

These two schools of thoughts regarding the nature of man isn't really our primary concern for this thread rather if consciousness defines man.

On this hypothetical scene, Johnydon22 and LordReed are sitting across each other.

Then somehow they swap consciousness, the consciousness of Johnydon goes into LordReed while LordReed's goes to Johnydon which means (Johny's body with LordReed's mind) and (LordReed's body with Johny's mind)

Which is truly LordReed and which is Johny?

Is man his consciousness or his body?

His Sex organs and his Reproductive Powers.

My opinion is that man has become a being greater than the sum of its parts. Yet man is a sum of parts and in our consideration here, a sum of mind and body.

In our scenario I think that if a mind is transferred from one body to another, it is no longer either the new host or the previous host; it becomes a new being. So for our example the LordReed/Johnydon22 mergers become new persons in their own rights neither of them is LordReed or Johnydon22 anymore.

LordReed:
My opinion is that man has become a being greater than the sum of its parts. Yet man is a sum of parts and in our consideration here, a sum of mind and body.

In our scenario I think that if a mind is transferred from one body to another, it is no longer either the new host or the previous host; it becomes a new being. So for our example the LordReed/Johnydon22 mergers become new persons in their own rights neither of them is LordReed or Johnydon22 anymore.

In otherwords, neither LordReed nor Johnydon22 exists anymore?

orisa37:
His Sex organs and his Reproductive Powers.

I don't understand. Elaborate?

The new being with lordreed's mind and johnydon22's body will think he is lordreed because he has lordreeds memory, experience etc. but in reality he is not the same person.

johnydon22:


In otherwords, neither LordReed nor Johnydon22 exists anymore?

Yes.

adoyi8:
The new being with lordreed's mind and johnydon22's body will think he is lordreed because he has lordreeds memory, experience etc. but in reality he is not the same person.

But he is not either Johnydon nor LordReed right?

LordReed:


Yes.

No! Two things still exist, so what are they?

On a side, thanks for another amazingly thought provoking thread johnydon22! Your knack for creating them is commendable.

LordReed:


Yes.

I'd argue for the consciousness (Playing the devils advocate here)

Let me give you another analogy here. Some voyagers went on a voyage to go around the earth, they had engineers to help them repair the ship in case of damages.

This ship was named SS olympian.

Once a part of the ship damages, the engineers replaces it and they keep on doing this for the duration of the journey until every part of the ship has been replaced at one time or another.

Is this ship still the SS olympian or a new ship?

johnydon22:
But he is not either Johnydon nor LordReed right?

even without transfer of consciousness our past selves are different from us due to our subsequent experience.

johnydon22:
But he is not either Johnydon nor LordReed right?

he will think he is lordreed just as you now think that you are the same johnydon22 of 20 years ago which in reality you are not.

adoyi8:
even without transfer of consciousness our past selves are different from us due to our subsequent experience.

But our past selves is still us?

adoyi8:
he will think he is lordreed just as you now think that you are the same johnydon22 of 20 years ago which in reality you are not.

But are they still Johnydon and Lordreed?

johnydon22:
I'd argue for the consciousness (Playing the devils advocate here)

Let me give you another analogy here. Some voyagers went on a voyage to go around the earth, they had engineers to help them repair the ship in case of damages.

This ship was named SS olympian.

Once a part of the ship damages, the engineers replaces it and they keep on doing this for the duration of the journey until every part of the ship has been replaced at one time or another.

Is this ship still the SS olympian or a new ship?

I think you've uncovered another problem, that of identity. Is the ship still the SS Olympian if all of its parts has been changed? The ship remains SS Olympian in identity but it is no longer the same ship. It remains the SS Olympian in the minds and paper work of those concerned because that for us that is how identity works, identity is tied to recognition, that is as long as you can continuously recognise a particular thing then its identity is established. If for instance you have a purple cup, everyday you drink from the cup then someday, you have no idea when it occurred, the cup was replaced with an identical cup. In your mind because you do not know someone has replaced the cup, it continues to be the purple cup. The day you are told this is a different cup, it ceases being the purple cup and becomes the 2nd purple cup.

budaatum:

No! Two things still exist, so what are they?

On a side, thanks for another amazingly thought provoking thread johnydon22! Your knack for creating them is commendable.

Two new things now exist. The Lordreed mind looks down at the johnydon22 body and instantly recognises that this is not the body of my memories ergo I am not me anymore. This segues into the problem of identity, what now does the Lordreed mind in the johnydon22 body call himself? He obviously can't go to my wife and say hey it's me your husband, she will not recognise him. Neither will our now advanced biometric identification systems recognise him as Lordreed. He has functionally become a new person.

Sure,consciousness defines man or you won't have been asking the question.
For the Loodreeds analogy,I find that confusing thou...What is your conception of consciousness and mind?

LordReed:


I think you've uncovered another problem, that of identity. Is the ship still the SS Olympian if all of its parts has been changed? The ship remains SS Olympian in identity but it is no longer the same ship. It remains the SS Olympian in the minds and paper work of those concerned because that for us that is how identity works, identity is tied to recognition, that is as long as you can continuously recognise a particular thing then its identity is established. If for instance you have a purple cup, everyday you drink from the cup then someday, you have no idea when it occurred, the cup was replaced with an identical cup. In your mind because you do not know someone has replaced the cup, it continues to be the purple cup. The day you are told this is a different cup, it ceases being the purple cup and becomes the 2nd purple cup.

But objectively the cup is no longer the purple cup you are used to whether you know it or not right? Only that identity requires a conscious mind to be established, innit?

For the ship, you are saying that it is now a different ship but its identity remains intact?

Can't we say same for Either Johny or Reed. The (Johny's body with Reeds mind) is still Johny in identity according to several documents bearing my passport and name?

BeLookingIDIOT:
Sure,consciousness defines man or you won't have been asking the question.
For the Loodreeds analogy,I find that confusing thou...What is your conception of consciousness and mind?

Ok, let me use spirit. Johny's body LordReeds spirit and vise versa.

Is that body still Johny or Reed?

LordReed:


Two new things now exist. The Lordreed mind looks down at the johnydon22 body and instantly recognises that this is not the body of my memories ergo I am not me anymore. This segues into the problem of identity, what now does the Lordreed mind in the johnydon22 body call himself? He obviously can't go to my wife and say hey it's me your husband, she will not recognise him. Neither will our now advanced biometric identification systems recognise him as Lordreed. He has functionally become a new person.

Wait, you are saying biometrics won't recognize LordReed with johny's mind as LordReed anymore?

LordReed:


I think you've uncovered another problem, that of identity. Is the ship still the SS Olympian if all of its parts has been changed? The ship remains SS Olympian in identity but it is no longer the same ship. It remains the SS Olympian in the minds and paper work of those concerned because that for us that is how identity works, identity is tied to recognition, that is as long as you can continuously recognise a particular thing then its identity is established.

Interesting point. My perception of my conscious awareness has changed over the years like the bits of a ship and I still identify as me. As adoyi8 said.

adoyi8:
even without transfer of consciousness our past selves are different from us due to our subsequent experience.

johnydon22:


Wait, you are saying biometrics won't recognize LordReed with johny's mind as LordReed anymore?

No, LordReed's mind in johnydon22's body won't be recognised by biometrics as LordReed.

johnydon22:


But objectively the cup is no longer the purple cup you are used to whether you know it or not right? Only that identity requires a conscious mind to be established, innit?

For the ship, you are saying that it is now a different ship but its identity remains intact?

Can't we say same for Either Johny or Reed. The (Johny's body with Reeds mind) is still Johny in identity according to several documents bearing my passport and name?

Correct.

LordReed:


No, LordReed's mind in johnydon22's body won't be recognised by biometrics as LordReed.

Oh alright.

Why not both? Man is made up of his consciousness and his body, Johnydon in Lordreed's body is just that: Johnydon in Lordreed's body and vice versa. Like Takeshi Kovacs in a new sleeve, if you're familiar with Altered Carbon,

In essence, two new beings would have been created. Johnydon's body would effect change in Lordreed's behaviour. For example, say Johnydon is athletic where Lordreed is overweight, this could encourage the latter to lead a more active lifestyle. Likewise, Lordreed's habits that caused him to be overweight can be carried over to Johnydon's body.

Edit: Alternatively, let's look at it this way: Johnydon in Lordreed's body would identify as Johnydon while everyone else would identify him as Lordreed. What makes him think that he hasn't gone insane? Maybe some rare form of body dimorphic disorder?

In a world where people can change their bodies to better fit the gender they identify as, given that gender reassignment has been said to reduce the anxiety and depression associated with gender dysphoria. Maybe a case can be made that Johny in Reed's body is still Johny, since he identifies as Johny. What do you think?

johnydon22:
This topic is tricky and i am going to present it with some hypothetical scenarios.

So, it is no news that there are two main thought classes on what a man is, on one hand you have;

Man is spirit class: this posits the existence of an eternal transcendent soul which is the true man, this position posits that the body is just like a cocoon the spirit drives and at death, the spirit abandons this cocoon and goes back to its original state.

Man is matter class: This school of thought argues man is just matter and nothing else. Consciousness is a product of an intricately highly arranged matter.

These two schools of thoughts regarding the nature of man isn't really our primary concern for this thread rather if consciousness defines man.

On this hypothetical scene, Johnydon22 and LordReed are sitting across each other.

Then somehow they swap consciousness, the consciousness of Johnydon goes into LordReed while LordReed's goes to Johnydon which means (Johny's body with LordReed's mind) and (LordReed's body with Johny's mind)

Which is truly LordReed and which is Johny?

Is man his consciousness or his body?

"²¹So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep, and while he slept, He took one of the man’s ribs and closed up the area with flesh.
²²And from the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man, He made a woman and brought her to him. "
- Genesis 2:21-22


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSTRA32cNEk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckUDcWIm4DQ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aqt-O9F6AkQ

Good Chris Rock movie, back in the day then. It is a remake of the original "Here Comes Mr. Jordan" and similar to Warren Beatty's "Heaven Can Wait"

CoolUsername:
Why not both? Man is made up of his consciousness and his body, Johnydon in Lordreed's body is just that: Johnydon in Lordreed's body and vice versa. Like Takeshi Kovacs in a new sleeve, if you're familiar with Altered Carbon,

In essence, two new beings would have been created. Johnydon's body would effect change in Lordreed's behaviour. For example, say Johnydon is athletic where Lordreed is overweight, this could encourage the latter to lead a more active lifestyle. Likewise, Lordreed's habits that caused him to be overweight can be carried over to Johnydon's body.

Edit: Alternatively, let's look at it this way: Johnydon in Lordreed's body would identify as Johnydon while everyone else would identify him as Lordreed. What makes him think that he hasn't gone insane? Maybe some rare form of body dimorphic disorder?

In a world where people can change their bodies to better fit the gender they identify as, given that gender reassignment has been said to reduce the anxiety and depression associated with gender dysphoria. Maybe a case can be made that Johny in Reed's body is still Johny, since he identifies as Johny. What do you think?

What Makes Man?
Or better still what is man?
Man is a spirit being, residing or housed in a Body and possessing a Soul, so Man is made up of Body, Soul (i.e. uses the heart as an outlet) and Spirit.
The Soul has the body and spirit on each opposite sides of it. In a nutshell, Man essentially, is a spirit being with a soul, housed, encapsulated, and/or wrapped up in a human being body suit

The spirit and soul have different faculties, and so the faculties of the spirit, comprises of Fellowship, Conscience, Discernment or Intuition, whilst the faculties of the Soul comprises of the Mind (i.e. consciousness and sub consciousness) or Intellect, Will or Freewill, and Emotions and the Body has 5 faculties of senses, which are, to see via the eyes, hear via the ears, feel via applicable part of the body, smell via the nose and taste via the mouth.

Mind you, the Soul is the most important existence of Man and that is why the battle is and always has been about or over the Soul. All attacks, are ultimately targeted at and for the Soul. Now, the Soul is the first medium key component of Man created by God and Man is tickled and accessed through this same Soul by way of the body and spirit. The Soul, in effective, is the mediator between the body and spirit

The different faculties in the Soul waits, to pick up signals coming from the relevant and/or applicable faculties in the Body and the Spirit. This crucial bit of information, is very important to grasp, that the Soul receives from the Body and deposits into the Spirit. Whatever the Body reads or sees via the eyes, hears via the ears, feels via applicable part of the body, smells via the nose and talks or tastes via the mouth is picked up by the Soul and deposited into the Spirit. The Spirit then, upon receiving things from the Soul, has to deal with or process what the Soul has deposited into its laps.

This is why regulation is very important. It is why we ought to control and oversee what the Soul is picking up from or picking up with the senses. If you have to by all means, eat the chicken or fish, then its necessary to know when and how to spit out the bones, or if it's straw to eat, then know when and how to spit out the sticks, alternatively, if it's liquor to drink, and you cant hold it down so you don't throw it up, then know how or when to stay away from the liquor

CoolUsername:
Why not both? Man is made up of his consciousness and his body, Johnydon in Lordreed's body is just that: Johnydon in Lordreed's body and vice versa. Like Takeshi Kovacs in a new sleeve, if you're familiar with Altered Carbon,

In essence, two new beings would have been created. Johnydon's body would effect change in Lordreed's behaviour. For example, say Johnydon is athletic where Lordreed is overweight, this could encourage the latter to lead a more active lifestyle. Likewise, Lordreed's habits that caused him to be overweight can be carried over to Johnydon's body.

Edit: Alternatively, let's look at it this way: Johnydon in Lordreed's body would identify as Johnydon while everyone else would identify him as Lordreed. What makes him think that he hasn't gone insane? Maybe some rare form of body dimorphic disorder?

In a world where people can change their bodies to better fit the gender they identify as, given that gender reassignment has been said to reduce the anxiety and depression associated with gender dysphoria. Maybe a case can be made that Johny in Reed's body is still Johny, since he identifies as Johny. What do you think?

In otherwords, two new beings being created means the initial Johny and Reed no longer exist but if they do, doesn't this bring the total to 4?

johnydon22:


In otherwords, two new beings being created means the initial Johny and Reed no longer exist but if they do, doesn't this bring the total to 4?

No, the old beings are but a memory now. Annihilated the moment the switch occurred.

LordReed:


Two new things now exist. The Lordreed mind looks down at the johnydon22 body and instantly recognises that this is not the body of my memories ergo I am not me anymore. This segues into the problem of identity, what now does the Lordreed mind in the johnydon22 body call himself? He obviously can't go to my wife and say hey it's me your husband, she will not recognise him. Neither will our now advanced biometric identification systems recognise him as Lordreed. He has functionally become a new person.

Makes me remember the movies Source Code(Jake Gyllenhaal) and Criminal(Ryan Reynold).
Intellectually captivating they are.
These questions flying on here, you'd find answered in there.
Cheers! anyways

I want to disagree with most of the comments so far tendered.. Man is a spiritual being having a human experience.. When the spirit enters the body, is when man becomes a soul.. That said, answering the spirit is the one having the experience, so whether it is in another body it is still Johnny... The experience might change as soon as the swap occurred.. And will start getting use to the new body.... So I believe its 2 not 4....

PaulAris:

Makes me remember the movies Source Code(Jake Gyllenhaal) and Criminal(Ryan Reynold).
Intellectually captivating they are.
These questions flying on here, you'd find answered in there.
Cheers! anyways

Cheers!

johnydon22:
This topic is tricky and i am going to present it with some hypothetical scenarios.

So, it is no news that there are two main thought classes on what a man is, on one hand you have;

Man is spirit class: this posits the existence of an eternal transcendent soul which is the true man, this position posits that the body is just like a cocoon the spirit drives and at death, the spirit abandons this cocoon and goes back to its original state.

Man is matter class: This school of thought argues man is just matter and nothing else. Consciousness is a product of an intricately highly arranged matter.

These two schools of thoughts regarding the nature of man isn't really our primary concern for this thread rather if consciousness defines man.

On this hypothetical scene, Johnydon22 and LordReed are sitting across each other.

Then somehow they swap consciousness, the consciousness of Johnydon goes into LordReed while LordReed's goes to Johnydon which means (Johny's body with LordReed's mind) and (LordReed's body with Johny's mind)

Which is truly LordReed and which is Johny?

Is man his consciousness or his body?

A living soul consists of two primary components, the body(flesh) and the individual spirit(soul).

Now an individual's spirit(soul), which is what actually powers or quickens the individual's body, is what distinguishes it from another spirit.

So when the individual spirit of johny is transferred from his own body, and used to power another body, it's still Jonny because even though it is another body, it is yet his individual spirit that is powering another body.

You could say it is a new, different, rebranded, etc., Jonny, because of the different factors that now come into his equation because of his new body, such as johny having a different appearance, for instance a tall, dark and handsome johny consequently becoming a short, fair and ugly johny or vice versa etc.

And there is also the physical composition of johny's new body, such his new body being physically handicapped unlike the former one or vice versa, as not having hands as the former did or vice versa, so johny in this his new body would not have hands to power with his individual spirit or vice versa etc.

Then there's also the aspect of sexuality, for sexuality is restricted to physical body compositions and hence is not applicable to spirits, so johny's individual spirit cannot be said to be male or female, but it can only apply to the physical composition of the body that Jonny's spirit occupies, so that if johny's former body was male, and now his new body is female, Jonny who used to be male via the male fashioned body he formerly occupied would now be female because of the female make up of his new body.

And furthermore, though there is a distinctive difference between the spirits of humans and those of animals, but if by any chance the same johny's individual spirit is transferred to the body of an animal, say a dog, that dog would be still be johny, because it is powered by johny's individual spirit.

So johny is his individual spirit, hence any thing that his individual spirit powers is johny, just like the johny moniker is johny because it is powered by johny individual spirit.

For if the individual spirit of another comes and takes over johny's moniker and starts creating threads and posting comments, the chances are that it would be obvious to those familiar with johny's threads and comments, that this did not emanate from johny but someone else.

Conclusion:
Johny is his individual spirit, and hence any body it possesses automatically becomes johny.