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M_nwankwo/ Justcool - Inconsistencies In The Grail Message - Religion - Nairaland

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A List Of Over 700 Inconsistencies In The Bible!!! / Inquiry For Justcool And M_nwankwo And Other Adherents Of The Grail Message / The Grail Message (2) (3) (4)

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M_nwankwo/ Justcool - Inconsistencies In The Grail Message by DeepSight(m): 6:48pm On Sep 17, 2010
The omniscience of GOD may be said to rest in the nature of God as a transcendental, intangible, omni-dimensional mind.

Is the existence of such a mind compatible with "emergency actions" of the nature described within the Grail Message as per the mission of the Son of God? I ask this because the Message specifically states that the Son of God had to pass through many realms at great speed on account of the urgency of his mission - and as such did not stop to take-on the nature of such realms, before incarnating on the earth. This indicates an emergency - an urgency - a fire brigade action for the purpose of delivering redemption.

Is it possible to speak of an omni-dimensional omniscient mind such as GOD is - involved in "urgencies" . . ."contingencies". . ."emergencies". . .of the sort described?

Would GOD not apprehend such things from primordial eternity already?

This seems to me to be a serious inconsistency in the though development of the Grail Messsage.
Re: M_nwankwo/ Justcool - Inconsistencies In The Grail Message by justcool(m): 12:53am On Sep 18, 2010
My dear Deepsight,

How you see inconsistency in urgency beats me. When is urgency incompatible with consistency? The urgency of the Mission of Jesus did not annul any of the laws of Creation. In the mission of Jesus all the laws of creation were fulfilled and none annulled. Speedily passing through a plane does not annul the laws of creation as there is no law that states that an individual must spend a long time in any planes of creations. If Jesus had magically appeared on earth without first traveling down through the planes between the Divine and the physical, then such would be an annulment of the laws of creation. But He did travel through the planes, only that He traveled fast so as to deliver His help to the earth on time.

If I make a journey from California to New York, as long as I traveled the distance between the two places, I have not annulled any laws of nature. I can make the journey in minuets, hours, days, or months; the speed of my travel does not annul the laws of nature. Nature permits rapid transition; as-long as in this transition distance is not abridged or omitted.

Also urgency(urgent response to the needy) lies in the laws of creation and actually is a manifestation of the Love of God. Wherever help is needed, the love of God inclines and delivers help on time or urgently. Every needy situation is considered urgent by the love of God which is ever watchful and ever ready to help. I will repeat once more: Wherever and whenever there is need, the love of God sends help urgently and without delay. When mankind drove the earth to near destruction, out of love God intervened. It was mankind that caused this state of emergency which necessitated urgent help because had minkind not been too engraved in sin, the mission wouldn't have been necessary. In the beginning God, through his laws, provided minkind with all they need to survive spiritually. So such urgency (as requiring the speedy incarnation of Jesus) or the emergency situation wouldn't have arisen of mankind had not drove themselves to near perdition or if mankind hadn't misused their free-will.

The few good ones on earth prayed to God for deliverance, and God sent help to them on time. At that time the earth had deviated so much from its right course and immersed so much in darkness that the strength of the prophets no longer sufficed to save the earth. The radiations of the prophets were not strong enough to penetrate the darkness and drive it away from the earth. Out of love, God who would not let any good person perish, sent a part of Himself(a part of His Divine essence), for the sake of the few who could save themselves in the light of Jesus.

The radiation of the Divine unsubstantial(Divine essence) innermost core of Jesus could penetrate through all the centers of darkness in the material realms and drive back the darkness that had taken hold of everything. It shattered all the strong holds of darkness and freed the earth; making it possible for mankind to free themselves too, if they want to. The individual has a free-will which God will not take away from him/her; he/she has to chose whether or not to accept the gift of Jesus. And by accepting Jesus, I mean living in accord with the words of Jesus; this is the only thing that can save the individual.

God provided everything through his laws from the very beginning. His laws give everything that minkind need and would ever need, from eternity; actually mankind need no extra help in-other to find their way back to Paradise or save themselves. The Mission of Jesus was an extra help which God gave out of love; and which became necessary due to the failure of mankind. Had mankind lived in accord with the laws, then the necessity and urgency of the mission of Jesus would not have arisen. This mission lies completely in the perfection of the laws of God which would not allow anybody to perish who can still be saved; neither will this perfection of the laws of God allow any genuine cry or petition for help to die away without giving help to the petitioner. For the sake of the few who could still be helped and in answer to their prayers, God sent His son. Rather than annulling the laws, this is actually a fulfilment of the law. For there is a law that: wherever help is genuinely needed and is genuinely asked for, God gives help through His laws. The sentence, "Ask and it will be given to you," is another way of expressing this law.

So to conclude and to answer your question:
Would GOD not apprehend such things from primordial eternity already?

God had already apprehended such things from primordial eternity by making urgent missions of help permissible within His laws. His laws have existed from primordial eternity and His laws permits and even promises help when and wherever help is needed. By providing, from primordial eternity, laws that allow such helps, God had already apprehended such situations from primordial eternity.

The emergency situation arose out of mankind's misuse of their free-will; had minkind not misused their free-will, no emergency situation would have arisen. Omniscience of God lies in His ability to know the consequence of each decision taken by mankind, He knows where every road leads. But God does not know before hand what decision mankind will take; otherwise mankind does not have free-will. Free-will(the ability to decide on what road to take) lies solely with the individual; this is why God will not automatically make everybody on earth righteous. Such would be tantamount to taking away their free-will; God can only send prophets and finally His son to warn, compel, and urge mankind towards making the right decision or taking the right road, the road that leads to Paradise. But finally the decision lies solely with the individual.


This is my perception and I hope it helps (if you take time and read it). Feel free to raise more concerns.

Thanks and remain blessed.

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Re: M_nwankwo/ Justcool - Inconsistencies In The Grail Message by DeepSight(m): 3:08pm On Sep 20, 2010
Justcool, what do you perceive to be "a complete mind."

God is a Complete Mind.

No human being is a complete mind, to the extent that there are things that are, and will always remain totally outside our minds.

There is however nothing in existence which may be accounted for outside the mind of GOD because GOD is a complete mind.

There can therefore only be "emergencies, contingencies and urgencies" for incomplete minds.

An emergency is an absurdity for a complete mind. For the complete mind that is GOD, it is absolutely inconceivable.

There is a reason that I deemed this an inconsistency in the Grail Message - and the reason is the fact that the Message emphasizes the completeness and accuracy of creation and the laws therein.

How you see inconsistency in urgency beats me. When is urgency incompatible with consistency? The urgency of the Mission of Jesus did not annul any of the laws of Creation. In the mission of Jesus all the laws of creation were fulfilled and none annulled. Speedily passing through a plane does not annul the laws of creation as there is no law that states that an individual must spend a long time in any planes of creations. If Jesus had magically appeared on earth without first traveling down through the planes between the Divine and the physical, then such would be an annulment of the laws of creation. But He did travel through the planes, only that He traveled fast so as to deliver His help to the earth on time.

The Message makes clear that the inflexible Divine Will has already written adamantine laws into creation and as such these laws are complete and suffice to deal with all that rests in creation. Indeed the very idea of further divine intervention can philosophically and logically only point to ONE thing: namely that the work that was initially done by the Creator was not a perfect work.

For you very well know, and this you will not deny - that that which is perfect will not require further intervention, much less "urgent" missions of redemption. Such will only connote a most imperfect work - which I am certain you will not ascribe to GOD.

The coming of the son of man - whom the message claims to be Abd Ru Shin - the authour of the Grail Message, was not hurried. It is described as a step-by-step process which evinces an order and co-ordination of the sort that one might ascribe to the Divine. However the notion that "there was insufficient time" [/b]with respect to the incarnation of Jesus is entirely at variance with the concept of a being such as GOD who is said to rest [b]above and beyond all time and space. Surely, you find this incongruous in the extreme.

For these reasons I find grave inconsistencies in the following from you -


God provided everything through his laws from the very beginning. His laws give everything that minkind need and would ever need, from eternity; actually mankind need no extra help in-other to find their way back to Paradise or save themselves. The Mission of Jesus was an extra help which God gave out of love; and which became necessary due to the failure of mankind.

You state, and i quote verbatim -

1. "God provided everything through his laws from the very beginning." - what then is the need for any further intervention?

2. "His laws give everything that minkind need and would ever need, from eternity" - what then is the need for any further intervention?

3. ". . .actually mankind need no extra help in-other to find their way back to Paradise or save themselves" - How can you state that mankind need no extra help and in the same breadth state that such help was necessary? ? ? Doubtless you know that the word necessary means that which is needed. So it is completely incongruous for you to state that {x} the help was not needed and yet {y} the help was necessary.

4. "The Mission of Jesus was an extra help which God gave out of love; and which became necessary due to the failure of mankind" - That it would become "necessary" (despite not [/b]being [b]needed - your words) would have been known by GOD [b]from eternity [/b]no? Why then the "urgency" and "rushing through various planes and realms" because there was "little time?" Could it be that GOD's preparations were tardy? Surely that does not read right in the least.

These incongruities culminate in a further incongruity -

This mission lies completely in the perfection of the laws of God which would not allow anybody to perish who can still be saved;

- - - > which is odd because you know very well that with or without such a mission, any person who can be saved, will be saved if he exerts himself upwards according to the laws of God. . . regardless of any "urgent mission."

Furthermore -

God had already apprehended such things from primordial eternity by making urgent missions of help permissible within His laws. His laws have existed from primordial eternity and His laws permits and even promises help when and wherever help is needed.

This is internally inconsistent because we are made to understand that all the help man needs is already contained in, and woven into the laws of creation. Any help beyond this that needs to come from OUTSIDE creation (as Jesus is claimed to) can only mean that the laws WITHIN creation are not help enough, and as such are not perfect.

if you take time and read it

I do read every word you write. Do not take my disagreement with such words to be an indication that I have not read them. That would be similar to concluding that any person who disagree with you uses "his intellect only and not intuitive perception" or the claim of many Christians that those who disagree with them "do not have the Holy Ghost."
Re: M_nwankwo/ Justcool - Inconsistencies In The Grail Message by justcool(m): 6:13pm On Sep 20, 2010
Dear Deepsight
Deep Sight:

Justcool, what do you perceive to be "a complete mind."

God is a Complete Mind.

No human being is a complete mind, to the extent that there are things that are, and will always remain totally outside our minds.

There is however nothing in existence which may be accounted for outside the mind of GOD because GOD is a complete mind.

There can therefore only be "emergencies, contingencies and urgencies" for incomplete minds.

An emergency is an absurdity for a complete mind. For the complete mind that is GOD, it is absolutely inconceivable.

There is a reason that I deemed this an inconsistency in the Grail Message - and the reason is the fact that the Message emphasizes the completeness and accuracy of creation and the laws therein.


First of; I do not know what you mean by "complete mind" and whether it can be attributed to God since God is not a "mind."

The emergency did not result from God neither was it as a result of the imperfection of the laws of God. The emergency situation resulted from man's misuse of his free will. While God is perfect, and so are His laws; mankind is not perfect, mankind poses free-will which they use freely without interference from God. Would you attribute imperfection to a car just because the driver fell asleep on the wheel and was about to drive the car off a cliff?

The mission of Jesus goes to prove further the perfection of God and His laws; because despite the emergency situation that can arise out of man's misuse of his free-will, God through His laws can still send help to them on time.

The situation was not an emergency on the side of God and His laws, neither God nor His laws were threatened by the situation; the situation was an emergency only on the side of mankind who were speedily heading towards distruction, a destruction that they brought on themselves.


Deep Sight:


The Message makes clear that the inflexible Divine Will has already written adamantine laws into creation and as such these laws are complete and suffice to deal with all that rests in creation. Indeed the very idea of further divine intervention can philosophically and logically only point to ONE thing: namely that the work that was initially done by the Creator was not a perfect work.


Divine intervention does not mean that the work was not perfect from beginning; it would only mean so, if in the intervention, the hitherto existing laws were annulled, improved, or changed even to the slightest degree.

But in the mission of Jesus, none of the laws of creation were changed or annulled. The mission in itself is a fulfillment of the law, "Ask and it shall be given unto you."

If you consider the entrance of a part of Divinity into creation as an intervention, then you should consider the mission of some of the Prophets intervention too. Because some of the prophets issued from the Primordial spiritual and descended into subsequent creation for their mission. Also do you consider the mission of Lucifer such intervention too? Remember Lucifer issued from outside creation. There are many others who issued from above creation and yet sent to earth for a mission. These missions do not equate intervention on the laws of creation or annulment of the laws of creation because these missions are fulfilled in the law. If you consider every visit an intervention as such, keep in mind that even the laws did not originate in creation; all the laws issue far above Creation, in God Himself who is the Living Law. One can equally say that the laws which issue from God visit creation. Does this visit equate intervention? This visiting and exiting, the eternal giving and taking, is a part of the system and not as such an annulment or improvement of the system.

A man who sets up an establishment, a hospital for example, can every now and then visit the hospital. As long as in his visit he had not changed or annulled any of the hospitals laws and regulations, the visit does not mean that the laws and regulations of the hospital are not perfect and are inadequate.

If I write a perfect text book and give to a school. Some student out of mental laziness may not understand the text book and thus headed to failure. If out of love I decide to visit the school and teach these students, does this mean that book is not perfect? As long as in my visit, I did not change any of the things hitherto written on the book; the perfection of the knowledge on the book remains.

I will give another example: A dicey situation arises in an American city, the city is about to destroyed due to the lawlessness of some of the citizens who do not know the laws of the state or the American Constitution very well.
To help restore order, one of the writers of the Constitution, lets say James Madison, is sent from washington to the troubled city to teach the citizens the law or the constitution and how to abide by it.
Does this imply that the law was not perfect before James Madison was sent? No! It only shows that the law is so perfect and enough to combat the situation, if only the citizens would live by it.
And even if James Madison was never sent the law will still hold; only that at the end almost all the citizens of the city will have to be thrown into jail or executed.
Thus the visit of James Madison does not mean that the law was not perfect, neither does it mean that the system was not good enough to deal with the situation. It only means that James Madison loves the citizens of the troubled city so much as to want to save them from jail and execution. This does not mean that the system is inadequate.

Deep Sight:


For you very well know, and this you will not deny - that that which is perfect will not require further intervention, much less "urgent" missions of redemption. Such will only connote a most imperfect work - which I am certain you will not ascribe to GOD.

Yes! If only the intervention disrupts or annuls the existing order. But if the intervention ensues and abides by the existing order then it is nothing but a visit which does not mean that the work was imperfect.

Also reread your question! Because in that question lies the answer already. You said, "that which is perfect will not require further intervention, much less "urgent" missions of redemption." Exactly! You are right! And in this case what required the mission of redemption? I will answer for you--- Mankind.

And I have always maintenance that mankind is not perfect. Had they not misused their free-will, then the mission of Jesus wouldn't have been necessary.

It was not the laws of creation that Jesus came to save, rather it was mankind. Neither was it the work of creation that Jesus came to save as such; for even if mankind had been left to drive the earth to an early desolation, the material creations would still remain. The earth will return to its primordial constituents after desolation, only to remodel and be born again. The eternal circle of birth, ripeness, over-ripeness and decay will continue; only that so many human spirits will be lost in the process. That is-- the personality that they had developed so far will be lost and their spirits will return to being spirit germs, and return to paradise as such. This is the much dreaded spiritual death-the death of the developing ego.

Thus Jesus came to save mankind from spiritual death and not to save the laws of creation or to improve upon them.

Coming to your "perfect work," if by that you refer to the earth or subsequent creation; keep in mind that subsequent creation did not issue directly from God, and thus cannot be described as a direct work of God. Subsequent creation, having precipitated from animistic realm and formed by the animistic beings at a greater distance from God than Primordial creation, subsequent creation does not resemble the perfection of the creator as much as Primordial creation does.

The emergency situation that occurred on earth which necessitated the visit of Jesus cannot occur in Primordial creation. None can be found wanting in Primordial creation, which issuing from God embodies more closely the perfection of God.

Deep Sight:

The coming of the son of man - whom the message claims to be Abd Ru Shin - the authour of the Grail Message, was not hurried. It is described as a step-by-step process which evinces an order and co-ordination of the sort that one might ascribe to the Divine. However the notion that "there was insufficient time" [/b]with respect to the incarnation of Jesus is entirely at variance with the concept of a being such as GOD who is said to rest [b]above and beyond all time and space. Surely, you find this incongruous in the extreme.


The mission of Jesus was not hurried as such either. Jesus speedily passed through the planes because He did not need to take on the nature of those planes for His mission. The mission of Jesus was not the same with the mission of the son of man. The mission of Jesus involves saving the earth and mankind; the mission of the son of man, on the other hand, was more terrestrial. The son of man had to visit all parts of creation, and not just the earth; and the son of man had to battle one on one with Lucifer, a battle which resulted in the chaining of Lucifer. Also the son of man had to visit the Grail castle at the highest part of the ethereal realm, where Amfortas fell; and where, in place of Amfortas, the son of man had to install another knight to fulfill the duties that Amfortas failed to fulfill. For the son f man to deliver this help in this plane, He had to spend some time there to learn about the plane, about how darkness operates in that plane, or take on the nature of the plane like you said. Being issued from Divine unsubstantiality, He knew only light and had to learn about the weakness of the beings in the worlds of matter. All that is dark, and all forms of weaknesses are foreign to the Light.

So the mission of Jesus was not hurried in the sense that Jesus was not well quipped for His work. He wasn't equipped as much as the son of man because the son of man had more work to do. Even in the bible, it is hinted that the son of man would do more than Jesus, ie the son of man would judge the world while Jesus judges no one.

If I send two people(Mr. A and Mr. B) on an errend; Mr. A is to go to New york and deliver my message, Mr. B is to deliver my message to all the states in America. It naturally follows that Mr. B will have a bigger luggage, he will have to carry more clothens, for he will have to travel from state to state. He will need more equipment than Mr. A who only has to enter a plane, arrive at New York, deliver his message, and return. So when I say that Mr. A speedily travelled through the distances, and not equipped as much as Mr. B, it does not mean that Mr. A is inadequately equipped to deal with New York.

I can go futher into the details differentiating the mission of the son of God and the mission of the son, and why the son of man needed to taken on spiritual nature but this will deviate us so much from the topic.

I will throw in one more word for you to consider: The son of man is the man in God, the outborn son of God, the God-man; while Jesus is the inborn son of God, He remains in the Divine unsubstantiality plane bearing nothing human within Him.


Deep Sight:


For these reasons I find grave inconsistencies in the following from you -

You state, and i quote verbatim -

1. "God provided everything through his laws from the very beginning." - what then is the need for any further intervention?

2. "His laws give everything that minkind need and would ever need, from eternity" - what then is the need for any further intervention?

3. ". . .actually mankind need no extra help in-other to find their way back to Paradise or save themselves" - How can you state that mankind need no extra help and in the same breadth state that such help was necessary? ? ? Doubtless you know that the word necessary means that which is needed. So it is completely incongruous for you to state that {x} the help was not needed and yet {y} the help was necessary.

1. The need for further intervention(if you could consider the mission of Jesus as further intervention) is due to the failure of mankind. If the help of Jesus was not given to them, they may all have perished in darkness. Secondly, the incarnation of Jesus was a reciprocal effect of the prayers of those who longed to be salvaged. Since mankind had fallen so deep that the power of the prophets no longer sufficed to salvage them, God sent a part of Himself. God will never send an inadequate help. Mankind drove themselves to a point where only God himself could save them.

2. Same answer as above.

3. It was necessary to prevent mankind from complete annihilation but not necessary to make the laws better because the laws need no improvement. Mankind is not perfect in that they make imperfect use of their free will. Without the help, minkind may not have been able to find their ways out of the self imposed maze they got entangled in.

The necessity was on the part of mankind not on the part of God or His laws. Had mankind not failed, then the necessity would not have arisen.


Deep Sight:

4. "The Mission of Jesus was an extra help which God gave out of love; and which became necessary due to the failure of mankind" - That it would become "necessary" (despite not [/b]being [b]needed - your words) would have been known by GOD [b]from eternity [/b]no? Why then the "urgency" and "rushing through various planes and realms" because there was "little time?" Could it be that GOD's preparations were tardy? Surely that does not read right in the least.

I repeat:

It was necessary to prevent mankind from complete annihilation but not necessary to make the laws better because the laws need no improvement. Mankind is not perfect in that they make imperfect use of their free will. Without the help, minkind may not have been able to find their ways out of the self imposed maze they got entangled in.
The necessity was on the part of mankind not on the part of God or His laws. Had mankind not failed, then the necessity would not have arisen.


Also, God was not tardy, neither was Jesus rushing(as in coming down hastily and without enough equipment); Jesus did not need to tarry in those planes between the Divine and the earth, because He did not need that for His mission. Jesus needed only confront mankind on earth; that was His mission. A mission which He fulfilled victoriously. The fact that He fulfilled His mission victoriously goes to show you that He had all the equipments that He needed.

I would not call the speedy descent of Jesus into creation a hurrying or a running out of time; it was rather an urgent answer to a prayer. Every genuine prayer receives an urgent answer from above; this is contained in the law of creation.

Deep Sight:

This is internally inconsistent because we are made to understand that all the help man needs is already contained in, and woven into the laws of creation. Any help beyond this that needs to come from OUTSIDE creation (as Jesus is claimed to) can only mean that the laws WITHIN creation are not help enough, and as such are not perfect.

Dear Deepsight the above is not very logicall, in that Jesus was not an extra Law added into creation; neither was He an improvement of the the laws already in creation. He fulfilled the laws that already exists in creation so this does not mean that the laws were not good enough. It is rather a testament to the perfection of the Laws since even the son of God had to live under them.

Any help from outside does not mean that the laws within creation are not help enough; it only means that mankind had fallen so much that despite all the help within the laws of creation, mankind would not retrace their steps.

I will give you an analogy: It costs $10:00 dollars to survive a semester in school, and I send my son to school where I opened an account for him leaving $20:00 in that account. If at the middle of the semester, my son calls me and tells me that he is running out of money, does this mean that I did not put enough money in his bank? No. It only means that my son became extravagant, he became a bad manager of his bank account.

If I speedily go to the school to hand my son more money, does this mean that I didn't leave enough money in his account? No. It only means that I love my son so much that despite his extravagance I still give him help.

The laws already give everything that mankind needs and would ever need; just like my son's bank account had enough money for him to survive through a semester; but mankind, like my son in my analogy had become irresponsible, hence they needed more help.

Like I said earlier in this post, if you consider every entrance from above into creation to mean that the laws within are not enough help; then keep in mind that the laws themselves issue from far above creation and enter creation. Even power and energy all originate from outside or above creation, from God Himself who is the living Power. This power or energy enters creation through the Holy Grail, pulsates through all the planes, then leaves creation and returns back to the source in an eternal giving and taking, which is a manifestation of the law of reciprocal action. If you don't consider this entrance and exit of energy into and out of creation to mean that the laws in creation are not perfect; then you should not consider the entrance and exit of Jesus into and out of creation to mean that the laws in creation are not perfect. After all it is the same processes of entrance and exit of energy.


Deep Sight:

I do read every word you write. Do not take my disagreement with such words to be an indication that I have not read them. That would be similar to concluding that any person who disagree with you uses "his intellect only and not intuitive perception" or the claim of many Christians that those who disagree with them "do not have the Holy Ghost."

I apologise for assuming that you don't read my words. And I am very happy that you do read them. You are free to agree or disagree with me, I only share my perceptions.
I still honor and respect you, my intelligent friend, even when you find my perceptions wanting. Perceptions change with maturity; maybe mine would change as I mature, or maybe yours will change. We are all students in the great class of life. Your rejection of my perceptions will not interfer with my love for you, the love that I strive to have for all creatures. You remain a person who I love and respects as a brother and a friend.

As always, Thanks and remain blessed.
Re: M_nwankwo/ Justcool - Inconsistencies In The Grail Message by mnwankwo(m): 12:58pm On Sep 21, 2010
Deep Sight:

The omniscience of GOD may be said to rest in the nature of God as a transcendental, intangible, omni-dimensional mind.

Is the existence of such a mind compatible with "emergency actions" of the nature described within the Grail Message as per the mission of the Son of God? I ask this because the Message specifically states that the Son of God had to pass through many realms at great speed on account of the urgency of his mission - and as such did not stop to take-on the nature of such realms, before incarnating on the earth. This indicates an emergency - an urgency - a fire brigade action for the purpose of delivering redemption.

Is it possible to speak of an omni-dimensional omniscient mind such as GOD is -  involved in "urgencies" . . ."contingencies". . ."emergencies". . .of the sort described?

Would GOD not apprehend such things from primordial eternity already?

This seems to me to be a serious inconsistency in the though development of the Grail Messsage.

Hi DeepSight. Thank you for your  questions and comments. I offer my perceptions as follows. I sense that the cause of your concern lies with the tripartite concepts of omniscience, perfection and immutability. You question that if God is omniscient and his laws are perfect, then it is illogical for God to intervene in his creations as once happened with the incarnation of the son of God, Jesus. Omniscience simply mean that God knows of everything that is existence and also know the infinite possibilities (not certainties) of "things" not yet in existence. Thus when non-existence have not yet metamorphosed into existence, God knows the various possibilities that this non existence may take in the process of transforming into existence. The reason for this is quite simple. All existence as well as "non-existence" bear an intrinsic nature which it cannot shake off. In other words the nature of a specie, a creature, creations, "unformed" radiations  etc are inseparable from the specie, creature ,creations or unformed radiations themselves. Using a crude but physical example, an object with a mass will exert a gravitational pull and it will be impossible to remove all mass and still exert gravitational pull. This is the way the laws of God are. The laws of God are simply intrinsic abilities that is the nature of the radiations of God including creations, creatures etc. Thus, the laws of God are not like earthly laws promulgated by a parliament in which the laws are simply rules to which a community or society adhere to and which can be changed forcefully or democratically. The laws of God are immutable because they are not a set of rules or commandments given by God, rather they are the intrinsic nature of all radiations of God irrespective of their forms or formlessness. God knows with mathematical exactitude all the abilities that resides in each of his radiations and the possibilities that are open to such radiations. Because God knows all the possibilities, what you seem to call contingency or emergency is not an after thought by God but is already taken care off before any of the varied possibilities takes on the cloak of probability and then a certainty.

Thus God does not know that Lucifer will disobey him when God sent Lucifer to help in the development of the human spirit in material spheres particularly with respect to the development of the human brain. But does God know of the possibility that Lucifer may fell in his mission? Certainly God knows that it is possible that Lucifer may fell since it lies within his laws that a divine being or higher spirit sent out from his origin in the divine realm or Primordial Spiritual realm into subsequent creation (world of matter) can choose to disobey the will of God because at such a distance, such a high being is not subject to the enormous pressure of Gods power. In other words, at such cosmic distances from God, the source of all existence, it is possible to choose to obey or disobey the will of God. In a similar vain, God did not know that evil will come into existence but God certainly know of the possibility that evil can arise in subsequent creation. Equally God did not know that man will sin when the first waves of spirit germs left paradise but God certainly know that it is a possibility that they may go astray since the spirit germs or seeds have the talent of freewill which is an intrinsic part of its nature.

The omniscience and perfection lies in the fact, that every possibility is taken care of and thus nothing will be a surprise or outside the laws of God. Thus even before Lucifer rebelled against God, even before evil came in existence, even before man sinned, the omniscience of God ensures that "plans" already existed eternally to take care of such aberration introduced by creatures with the ability of free will. I will give an example that directly related to your concern or question. At the sixth plane of the primordial spiritual realm (counting from above downwards), there are two female primordial spiritual beings with names Maria and Therese. These female spiritual beings  clock envoys of God, that is the two sons of God and link them to earthly women who are prenatally prepared to be the earthly mother of the physical bodies of the envoys of God. The gap between an earthly woman and a direct incarnation of God, that is a son of God is too much and unbridgeable and thus a primordial spiritual female being has to act as a bridge. Thus a son of God during his incarnation and birth has a direct connection with the Primordial Female being while the earthly woman has connection with the female primordial being. The female being is connected with the earthly human spiritual woman through incarnation  and up to about 40 days after the birth of a son of God. The link between the female primordial vessels and the earthly human spiritual woman ensures that the earthly human spiritual woman have experiences which may be said to be miraculous or unusual. In this vain, one may understand why Mary, the earthly human woman that was predestined to be the earthly mother of Jesus experienced other worlds, the annunciation for example.  In case of the unsubstantiate love of God, Jesus, the primordial female being is called Maria and in case of the unsubstantiate will of God, Imanuel, the primordial spiritual being is Therese. I hope you can see omniscience at work for even before the man fell, even before Lucifer fell and even before sin entered the world, there are already provisions by God for the earthly incarnation of his two sons to redeem humnankid and also to chain Lucifer should in case Lucifer rebelled and men sinned.

Justcool has brilliantly described the mission of Jesus and I will not repeat what he has said. Just to mention that the incarnation of Jesus on earth did not just redeem man from his sins but pulled the ethereal earth from a premature death. The death of the physical earth would have followed that of the ethereal earth and all human spirits both in this physical earth and its environs (finer planes of gross matter like the astral plane) and ethereal planes would have suffered premature spiritual death and cease to exist. The thin veils that Jesus wore around him was also in accordance with his mission and not a deficiency. One of the mission of Jesus Christ is to bring the Truth but humanity was so encased in darkness that even those who wish to listen to him will tire too quickly and go astray. Such well meaning seekers whose strength was not enough to absorb the word of God because of the dense layers surrounding them need those dense layers to be thorn to shreds so that the words of Jesus can find its way to their spirit. Witnessing of divine miracles have the prospects of dispersing the dark layers that surrounds those genuine seekers allowing the words of Jesus to shone through and be alive in them. In order to bring about these instantaneous divine miracles, Jesus has to wear thin veils of all species that are foreign to the unsubstantiate love of God that he is. This has the advantage that his inner core which is God burst forth and shone more freely bringing about miracles. You may probably understand why he has to quickly transit through all planes before his earthly incarnation and birth.


Now, God and his laws are perfect but material creation or subsequent creation is not perfect because it was not directly created by God. Material creation or subsequent creation is the work  primordial spiritual beings. This work of the primordial beings is a school for development of the human spiritual. What is subject to development is not perfect. One of the possibility out of many is that it can be developed to its own level of perfection or it can also be developed into imperfection. It lies within the ability of free will to move towards its own level of perfection or move towards imperfection. A developmental field, that is material creation was turned into the realm of sin and imperfections by the human spiritual in exercise of their free will following the principle of wrong doing first introduced by Lucifer. Lucifer and the human spirit used the power of free will for wrong purposes. Again even before material creations came into existence the omniscience which resides in God foresaw this possibility and preparations to eliminate the absurdity have existed since the beginning of creation. Again I hope you will see the manifestation of omniscience and perfection of God. Imperfections can arise as a result of the misapplication of the laws of God but since the laws of God are perfect, the imperfections due to misapplication cannot be sustained, since the laws of cycle ensures that all imperfections will be disintegrated. Thus evil or imperfections can only exist albeit temporary in material creations but even this temporal existence will come to an end when the power of God compels evil to destroy itself. In the beginning, all were good and in the end, all will also be good. The battle between good and evil lies only between the beginning and the end. Someday, this earth will be a reflection of the kingdom of God where only the will of God reigns. Evil, diseases, etc will cease to exist.


Finaly, remember that what I have described as the laws of God are simply manifestation of what actually is the living law of God. In absolute terms, the living laws of God is in God. Just like one can say that God is Love, Light or Truth, I also say that God is the LAW. The laws vibrating in creation are only coarse and part reflections of the laws that lives in God. Since every creation including primordial creation reflects only a minute part of the Living Law that is in God, you will probably understand why these part laws manifesting in various creations are limited. But the living law that is in God has all the laws and that will explain why certain things which are impossible for part laws vibrating in creation are quite possible when an envoy of God carrying all the laws of creation presses them into fulfilment. Again, I give an example with the act of healing. Vibrating within creation are healing power centres which carries in themselves part laws which can bring about miracles if an afflicted person or a genuine healer sends up fervent prayers for help. Many of the illness even cancer in its early phases can benefit from these healing centres which God has woven into creation. But there are instances like a terminal cancer case with 100% medical prognosis of fatality  in less than two weeks. Now pay close attention. Imagine this cancer patient to be the only child of a couple who have genuinely prayed for Gods help for everything they have tried have failed, therapy by the best medial oncologists, prayers by the most reputed faith healers, intervention by those who believe they are God men. These two human beings have exhausted all possibilities and the specialist have told them that their child has a maximum of two weeks to live. The father is preparing for the funnel and this experience have even shaken his belief in God. He thunders, why will God allow my only son to die? If God exists, why could he not heal my son, for four years now we have gone from one hospital to another, from one church to another, from one sage to another and now the doctor says that my son has two weeks to live. He started reigning abuses to God and mummed in hopelessness that God does not exit.  His wife who senses that God exists in spite of all their travels tries to calm the husband down but all to no avail. Looking straight into his eyes the husband wondered loudly why the wife still believes in spite of what is happening to them, sobbing uncontrollably the wife called on God with every depth of her soul to help.

Now, this prayer which is not in words leaves the woman for this woman is not even earthly conscious of the help that her inner being have sought. This prayer gets connected via a lot of substantiate mediators to the highest of the power centres in the Primordial Spiritual. At this point, it was know that the cure to the terminal cancer case is beyond what is possible in creation. Again the highest of the substantiate mediators links themselves with this prayer given it the buoyancy to escape beyond creation into the divine realm and then into the proximity of God. Now in answer to this prayer that have travelled cosmic distances to reach God, the source of existence, God then enacts a fresh act of will embodying all the laws necessary to effect instantaneous healing. This volition then leaves the divine plane and find its way to the child through mediators and low and behold the child is healed instantaneous with independent confirmation by medical investigators,  The point of this illustration is to show you that the perfection of the laws in creation also detect there limitations because they are part laws and in some cases forward such detection to God who can decide to bring help. Thus, God did not finish creating and then went to sleep. Rather his creation needs sustenance and even his laws in creation needs maintenance or re-invigoration. Now did God know that the spirit germ who later developed to the child I used in my illustration will have terminal cancer at the time that spirit germ first left paradise some millions of year ago. My answer is that God did not know for such knowledge is not in existence. Does God know of the possibility that if sin entered the world of matter, diseases like cancer will begin to exist. Certainly God knows of that possibility. Above all the perfection of his laws has put machinery in motion from the beginning of creation to take care of such a possibility. Thus God can and do intervene in his creation but such intervention is not an arbitrary act or emergency as you seem to call them but only the working out of the perfection of the laws of God. Lastly remember that once every earthly year, God pours his power into creation from outside of creation for the sustenance and maintainable of creation. The Pentecost that the disciples of Jesus experienced is one such event. Pentecost continues to happen every year and any creature irrespective of whether he is in this world or the beyond can recieve of this power if he is inwardly open. Without this periodic influx of energy from God into creations, all creations will gradually grow old, die, decay and disintegrate. As always stay blessed.

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Re: M_nwankwo/ Justcool - Inconsistencies In The Grail Message by DeepSight(m): 5:16pm On Sep 21, 2010
justcool:

Dear Deepsight
First of; I do not know what you mean by "complete mind" and whether it can be attributed to God since God is not a "mind."

Let us not allow ourselves or the discussion to be defeated by semantics.

I am sure you have a sense that when I use the word “mind” in this context, I do not refer to such as the human brain – but simply the quality or state that enables a being or entity to apprehend things.

The emergency did not result from God neither was it as a result of the imperfection of the laws of God. The emergency situation resulted from man's misuse of his free will. While God is perfect, and so are His laws; mankind is not perfect, mankind poses free-will which they use freely without interference from God.

I feel that there are severe problems and contradictions inherent in the foregoing, to wit –

1. You stated that the emergency did not result from God but from Man’s misuse of his free will. It find it very hard to accept that this is not something that God could/ would have apprehended from eternity. Indeed even mere man can decipher that so long as free will exists, the possibility of its misuse will also exist and as such it beats me to imagine GOD who exists outside of all time and space not apprehending from primordial eternity that this would/ may be the case and not already provisioning for such an eventuality such that when indeed the moment of need arises, it is said to be “an emergency. . .”

It can be an emergency from the point of view of mere men, but I feel that it dishonors and belittles GOD to imagine that there can be any such thing as an emergency from the point of view of such a complete transcendental deity. Indeed I feel, as I have already expressed, that the very idea is absolutely incompatible with any enunciation of the nature of divinity or transcendence. . .

2. Secondly, and more cardinally, you stated thus – “While God is perfect, and so are His laws; mankind is not perfect, mankind poses free-will which they use freely without interference from God.”

THIS IS A MAJOR CONTRADICTION, dear friend, for I am at severe pains that you can state that mankind are to deploy their free will without interference from God[/b]AND YET state again that God [b]had to interfere by sending a part of himself to the earth!

I do need you to appreciate that this is not only a self-contradictory statement, but also belies and contradicts that which is resident within the Grail Message – to wit – that every human spirit bears strict responsibility for its fate and will receive its judgment as a natural consequence of the operation of the laws of creation. It is thus eminently strange to state that  -

a. God will not interfere with man’s free will AND YET –

b. God will interfere to save them from the consequences of the execrcise of that free will DESPITE THE FACT THAT –

c. The laws of God already make full provision for each exercise of will and its attendant results/ consequences.


I hope you can see that the three above – a, b and c – all contradict each other. Why will God not simply leave the laws of Karma/ retribution, attraction to take their flow and deliver the results and consequences? As I said, before, if he has to engage in a process of “severing” “parts” of himself and proceeding into creation personally to set things aright, [/b]that does not speak very well for the adequacy of the existing laws within creation, and this is not something that we can spin away through rhetoric such as “help is part of the law” – for the simple reason that such help would not be necessary if truly, as claimed by the Message, [b]God is strict and adamantine.

Would you attribute imperfection to a car just because the driver fell asleep on the wheel and was about to drive the car off a cliff?

No: but I will attribute imperfection to the car if the maker of the car has to intervene to stop the car from falling off the cliff despite the fact that brakes have already been provided in the car.

Now when the maker of the car is the same person who is the maker of the driver of the car the level of responsibility of the maker becomes much higher. He is responsible for the car as well as the driver and probably should have installed a radar system which would detect approaching and dangerous chasms and include an alarm system therein – if he has not done this and has to be bothered at the last minute to come to save the car and driver from the pit-fall personally, you must inescapably agree that the whole system he has created (car + driver) cannot in any wise be described as perfect.

The mission of Jesus goes to prove further the perfection of God and His laws; because despite the emergency situation that can arise out of man's misuse of his free-will, God through His laws can still send help to them on time.

Sending help is incompatible with a perfect system.

The day Microsoft creates a perfect computer, all computer maintenance engineers will be out of jobs forever. So long as such engineers are still required, we cannot be said to have reached perfection.

The situation was not an emergency on the side of God and His laws, neither God nor His laws were threatened by the situation; the situation was an emergency only on the side of mankind who were speedily heading towards distruction, a destruction that they brought on themselves.

This does not square with the fact that it is a severed part of God that is said to rush through the planes in haste. . .agreed it was an emergency for mankind, but it is inconceivable that GOD would not have seen mankind heading in that direction from primordial eternity already. I hope you can see that once you accept as you have done that it was NOT an emergency for God, then the question begs – why the haste indicated in the message?

Divine intervention does not mean that the work was not perfect from beginning; it would only mean so, if in the intervention, the hitherto existing laws were annulled, improved, or changed even to the slightest degree.

I think I have explained already that any intervention or help is completely incompatible with the idea of a perfect work. No perfect work can conceivably require any further intervention by the workman – regardless that the workman is said to deploy the same principles in his further intervention. The mere act of intervening alone, even if in accordance with the principles earlier deployed by the workman, is sufficient to show that the workman had not done a complete job. This is clear. What is he returning to do, if the work was already done, perfect and dusted? ? ?

If you consider the entrance of a part of Divinity into creation as an intervention, then you should consider the mission of some of the Prophets intervention too. Because some of the prophets issued from the Primordial spiritual and descended into subsequent creation for their mission. Also do you consider the mission of Lucifer such intervention too? Remember Lucifer issued from outside creation.

I cannot work with this as I have no idea where prophets come from. As far as my very limited understanding permits, I view them as human beings. Ditto for Lucifer – I do not know anything about such a being, or whether it even exists as described. Maybe one day I will know, but for now it will be false of me to say that I do. So sorry, this is not something I can work with.

If you consider every visit an intervention as such, keep in mind that even the laws did not originate in creation; all the laws issue far above Creation, in God Himself who is the Living Law. One can equally say that the laws which issue from God visit creation.

I am surprised you will compare a permanent standing law which forms the basis for existence as a whole (and which is described by the Message as “adamantine”) to the visit of a personal being who enters and then exits creation at a specific time.

When do the laws of creation exit creation, or cease to apply to creation? Never.

The example is not apt.

If I write a perfect text book and give to a school. Some student out of mental laziness may not understand the text book and thus headed to failure. If out of love I decide to visit the school and teach these students, does this mean that book is not perfect? As long as in my visit, I did not change any of the things hitherto written on the book; the perfection of the knowledge on the book remains.

But remember that in this case you are not only the writer of the book, but the maker of the students, and you have provided every possibility within the school for students to learn. If indeed the school is a perfect school, you need not visit. If you are compelled to, the school could not be said to be perfect, this is clear.

You should look to the school – which is the world. In this case you are the maker of the school as well, the book, and the students. I hope you see reason in these terms. In each of the examples you gave - you would be the maker if the ENTIRE SYSTEM - which is what God is - and as such you should look to the perfection of the entire system

I believe this addresses the other examples you gave and as such I will not go through them one at a time.

Reread your question! Because in that question lies the answer already. You said, "that which is perfect will not require further intervention, much less "urgent" missions of redemption." Exactly! You are right! And in this case what required the mission of redemption? I will answer for you--- Mankind.

Whence did mankind arise? The same maker, no?

Coming to your "perfect work," if by that you refer to the earth or subsequent creation; keep in mind that subsequent creation did not issue directly from God, and thus cannot be described as a direct work of God. Subsequent creation, having precipitated from animistic realm and formed by the animistic beings at a greater distance from God than Primordial creation, subsequent creation does not resemble the perfection of the creator as much as Primordial creation does.

I am sorry to say, but this above, which I have always read in the Grail Message, only comes across as an excuse: my deepest apologies for having to say so.

I do not believe it is apt to speak of such things as “at great distances from God.”

I tell you that, I view it as an almost insulting excuse – and this is why: GOD is said to be OUTSIDE creation, entirely away from finite space and time which is creation. I do not know by what parameters anybody can begin to speak about which worlds are at “great distances” from God, indeed, I am not even sure that the concept of distance is applicable at all in such a context, once you refer to God.

Secondly, everything within creation is the work of God – directly or indirectly. To state that some aspects of creation are not the direct creation of God, may be fair – as we have agreed in the past – but it is altogether unfair, and I dare say, amounts to shirking responsibility – to claim that GOD does not remain responsible for ALL of creation – direct or indirect – as it all issued from God. Again, this comes across as another unpalatable excuse – we cannot begin to conceive of a perfect God, who issues a perfect primordial creation which in turn begins to issue imperfect subsequent creations. That would only mean that the Perfect God and his perfect primordial creation were not all that perfect if the perfect primordial creation could begin to issue imperfect subsequent creations.

That is going round in circles and is absolutely unacceptable.

I will throw in one more word for you to consider: The son of man is the man in God, the outborn son of God, the God-man; while Jesus is the inborn son of God, He remains in the Divine unsubstantiality plane bearing nothing human within Him.

Unless you will repudiate a great deal of what is in the gospels, it is a hard sell to state that Jesus of Nazareth has nothing human about him.
Re: M_nwankwo/ Justcool - Inconsistencies In The Grail Message by DeepSight(m): 5:17pm On Sep 21, 2010
Edit.
Re: M_nwankwo/ Justcool - Inconsistencies In The Grail Message by DeepSight(m): 8:32pm On Sep 21, 2010
@ Nwankwo, you wrote quite a bit. I am reading it and will shortly like to make a few comments thereto. However there are aspects that are addressed in my response to Justcool if you will have a look.
Re: M_nwankwo/ Justcool - Inconsistencies In The Grail Message by mnwankwo(m): 9:51pm On Sep 21, 2010
Deep Sight:

@ Nwankwo, you wrote quite a bit. I am reading it and will shortly like to make a few comments thereto. However there are aspects that are addressed in my response to Justcool if you will have a look.

Hi Deep Sight. I have read your response to Justcool. When you are ready, post your concerns or comments and I will find time to address them specifically. Stay blessed.
Re: M_nwankwo/ Justcool - Inconsistencies In The Grail Message by justcool(m): 12:48am On Sep 22, 2010
@Deepsight,

I have offered my perceptions on this issue and I think there is no need saying the same thing over and over again. I just offer my perceptions for you to consider and not to force them on you; so feel free to disregard them if you find them wanting.

However, from your replies, there seems to be misconceptions that arouse from my earlier post; perhaps I failed to put my points across in a more vivid way. These are the issues I will treat in this post--misconceptions that seemed to have arisen from my earlier posts.

Deep Sight:


I feel that there are severe problems and contradictions inherent in the foregoing, to wit –

1. You stated that the emergency did not result from God but from Man’s misuse of his free will. It find it very hard to accept that this is not something that God could/ would have apprehended from eternity. Indeed even mere man can decipher that so long as free will exists, the possibility of its misuse will also exist and as such it beats me to imagine GOD who exists outside of all time and space not apprehending from primordial eternity that this would/ may be the case and not already provisioning for such an eventuality such that when indeed the moment of need arises, it is said to be “an emergency. . .”

It can be an emergency from the point of view of mere men, but I feel that it dishonors and belittles GOD to imagine that there can be any such thing as an emergency from the point of view of such a complete transcendental deity. Indeed I feel, as I have already expressed, that the very idea is absolutely incompatible with any enunciation of the nature of divinity or transcendence. . .


Yes that’s what I stated; but perhaps emergency is the wrong choice of words. The situation was not an emergency at such looked from the side of God and His laws.

I had already explained earlier that God had apprehended such situations from the primordial beginnings by making missions of redemption permissible within His laws. Hence the situation is well accommodated within His laws which existed from primordial eternity.

The problems that you raised should not arise when one remembers that the mission of Jesus was permissible within the Laws of God. In that- in the mission none of the existing laws were changed.

If God hadn’t apprehended the possibility of such failure on the part of mankind then the possibility of redemption would not have existed within His laws. I.e. He would not have made provisions for redemption within His laws. But since such provisions exist; then the situation being an emergency on the side of God and His laws is totaly out of question.

Deep Sight:

2. Secondly, and more cardinally, you stated thus – “While God is perfect, and so are His laws; mankind is not perfect, mankind poses free-will which they use freely without interference from God.”
THIS IS A MAJOR CONTRADICTION, dear friend, for I am at severe pains that you can state that mankind are to deploy their free will without interference from God[/b]AND YET state again that God [b]had to interfere by sending a part of himself to the earth!


By sending a part of Himself, God had not interfered with the free-will of man. Man still had the choice to decide on which road to take. The radiations of Jesus offered subsequent creation the power that it needed to continue being in existence; His words offered humans the possibility to find their ways back to Paradise. This is only possible if man accepts Jesus words and livein accordance with it. But the choice remained with man; he/she has to decide whether to live according to the teachings of Jesus or not. This is not interference with free-will.

Deep Sight:

I do need you to appreciate that this is not only a self-contradictory statement, but also belies and contradicts that which is resident within the Grail Message – to wit – that every human spirit bears strict responsibility for its fate and will receive its judgment as a natural consequence of the operation of the laws of creation. It is thus eminently strange to state that  -

a. God will not interfere with man’s free will AND YET –

b. God will interfere to save them from the consequences of the execrcise of that free will DESPITE THE FACT THAT –

c. The laws of God already make full provision for each exercise of will and its attendant results/ consequences.


I hope you can see that the three above – a, b and c – all contradict each other. Why will God not simply leave the laws of Karma/ retribution, attraction to take their flow and deliver the results and consequences? As I said, before, if he has to engage in a process of “severing” “parts” of himself and proceeding into creation personally to set things aright, [/b]that does not speak very well for the adequacy of the existing laws within creation, and this is not something that we can spin away through rhetoric such as “help is part of the law” – for the simple reason that such help would not be necessary if truly, as claimed by the Message, [b]God is strict and adamantine.

The incarnation of Jesus did not annul the laws of reciprocal action; each individual still has to reap what he/she has sworn. I have explained that the incarnation of Jesus did not interfere with the free-will of man.

How is offering somebody an advice an interference with his/her free-will? Jesus simply offered mankind an advice and never forced anybody to accept His advice.

Those who blindly headed towards destruction were still headed towards destruction; each must reap what he/she had sown. But Jesus with His words and existence on earth offered those who longed for Paradise a way out of sin, a way back to Paradise.

While I see what you sense as contradiction; I will take time to explain further, and show you that there is no contradiction. Now mark very well the following words: Each individual will still reap what he/she had sown despite the incarnation of Jesus. Saving the earth(and of course its finer environs, ethereal and etc.) was also manifestation of the law of reciprocal action and Justice of God. In that:

1) There were humans on earth/Ephesus who did not deserve to be destroyed in the premature destruction which the earth/Ephesus was headed to. Leaving these people (even if only one person) to be destroyed with the rest contradicts the law of reciprocal action because these individuals had not sown the seeds that yielded the destruction which mankind was headed to. Such would be wanting in Divine Justice, which is inseparable from Love. The Love of God would not allow any individual, no matter how insignificant, to parish undeservedly. So since not all humans sowed the seeds that caused the destruction which mankind was heading to, God would not let them parish or be destroyed with the rest; or let thier school(the worlds of matter)/Ephesus perish and deny them the opputunity for maturity. This will be tantamount to allowing a school to be destroyed, and hence depriving an innocent  child of the posibility of going to school, just because some bad students blindly decided to destroy the school. This wouldnt be justice.

2) These few good ones prayed for redemption. Lifting them out of the worlds of matter was out of the question because they were not yet matured enough to return back to Paradise as conscious human spirits; they still had a lot to learn in the worlds of matter. The only option left is to allow them the time that they deserved to spend in the worlds of matter; this is the only loving option. Apart from this, their prayer for redemption cannot go unheeded because "ask and it shall be given to you" is a law in creation, the law of reciprocal action. And God would not send an inadiquate help like a prophet; because at this point the only thing that could save the earth/Ephesus was an incarnation of a part of God; the power of the prophets no longer suffices.

3) By saving the earth or Ephesus from premature disintegration, the evil ones have not been redeemed of the consequences of their evil as you seem to suggest. Everybody that was headed towards destruction was still headed towards destruction, but in this case, rather than plunging the whole Ephesus(along with the good individuals) into destruction, the individual plunges only himself. Because the Divine radiation of Jesus speeds up everything, bringing everything into fruition. That which lingers in the dark reveals itself; and that which was slowly dying dies fast, leaving that which is slowly glowing to blossom fast. "All that is dead in creation shall be awakened, so that it may pass judgement upon itself" Everything hitherto slumbering awakens; the good ones become fervently good and the bad ones becomes crazily bad. Thus a separation occurs where naturally the dark ones had to let go of the earth, which then rises towards the light and becomes free. This is the judgment of God in all its naturalness and simplicity. This judgment naturally happens whenever Divinity comes down to earth.

Another way to put it is that darkness cannot stand before the Light. By Jesus incarnating on earth, Light is put on earth which dispels all darkness. This dismiss of dark currents from earth allows the earth to become lighter, it rises to its right path. Those humans who have sown destruction, who are so engraved in darkness will have to fall away along with the dark currents into the dark planes where they will reap the destruction they have sown.  This way the earth is saved and the dark ones that deserve destruction gets what they deserve in the dark regions where only dark souls exist; and in this destruction of darkness, no good one will be lost.

I don’t know if you notice the automatic and perfect working in this; as only the perfect, immutable, all-wise and adamantine laws of God can bring about. 

When I say "earth" I do not only mean the physical or gross material earth. I mean both the gross material and etheral parts, including thier subdivisions. Thus Ephesus.

Deep Sight:

No: but I will attribute imperfection to the car if the maker of the car has to intervene to stop the car from falling off the cliff despite the fact that brakes have already been provided in the car.

Now when the maker of the car is the same person who is the maker of the driver of the car the level of responsibility of the maker becomes much higher. He is responsible for the car as well as the driver and probably should have installed a radar system which would detect approaching and dangerous chasms and include an alarm system therein – if he has not done this and has to be bothered at the last minute to come to save the car and driver from the pit-fall personally, you must inescapably agree that the whole system he has created (car + driver) cannot in any wise be described as perfect.


The fact that a driver fell asleep and consequently failed to deploy the brakes does not mean that the brakes are faulty. Try suing Ford Motors about the imperfection of their car when you failed to engage your healthy brakes. Believe me your case will be thrown out of the court grin grin

Coming to the maker being responsible because He made the driver; you are inferring that since God created man, God is responsible for man's imperfections.

But God did not create humans on earth or in subsequent creation as such. Those that God created are the Primordial spiritual beings at the summit of creation; these are perfect and never found wanting so long as they remain in their plane which is in the vicinity of God.

Coming to man on earth or in subsequent creation, one can say that God created spirit germs in Paradise; or the spirit germs precipitated from the radiation of God in Paradise. As long as they remain spirit germs in Paradise, they are perfect spirit germs.

But in the process of developing from spirit-germ to human spirit, the spirit can be said to create itself(its personality) or develop itself based on its free-will. If the spirit develops itself in accordance with the will of God, it will one day become a fully consciouse human spirit and will recieve the gift of eternal life in Paradise since will be able to detach itself from matter and return back to Paradise. But if the spirit develops in a manner alien to the will of God, the developing ego is headed towards destruction, since it cannot free itslelf from matter and return back to paradise with a wrongly developed ego; the developing ego or parsonality will be destroyed, crushed back to a spirit germ which will then return back to Paradise as an unconcsiouse spirit-germ.

Man on earth, in subsequent creation, is a spirit-germ in the process of development; he was not actually created by God that way; hence God is not responsible for his imperfections and hence his imperfections cannot be attributed to God.

If you buy a car from Ford Motors; as long as you leave it the way Ford Motors made it, then any imperfections in it can be attributed to Ford Motors. But if you buy Ford Explorer and in the process of transforming it to a Ford expedition, you make it imperfect. This imperfection cannot be attributed to Ford Motors.

Deep Sight:

Sending help is incompatible with a perfect system.

The day Microsoft creates a perfect computer, all computer maintenance engineers will be out of jobs forever. So long as such engineers are still required, we cannot be said to have reached perfection.

No the above is wrong!! Perfection does not preclude maintenance and sustenance. After making the perfect computer, one still needs to plug it into electric channel. Man still has to use the computer. Being a perfect work does not imply being all sufficient. Only God is all-sufficient. All works need maintenance and sustenance. And creation is nothing but a piece of work' nobody claims that creation is independent and all-sufficient.

Deep Sight:

This does not square with the fact that it is a severed part of God that is said to rush through the planes in haste. . .agreed it was an emergency for mankind, but it is inconceivable that GOD would not have seen mankind heading in that direction from primordial eternity already. I hope you can see that once you accept as you have done that it was NOT an emergency for God, then the question begs – why the haste indicated in the message?

I have explained to you that Jesus was not in a hast as such; He did not take on the nature of those planes simply because He did not need to, and not that He did not have time to.

M_nwankwo has explained why it was necessary that Jesus did not take on the nature of those planes, i.e. why He was not thickly covered. The advantage, which He needed for His mission, was that His Divine unsubstantial core could shine forth more easily.

Deep Sight:

I think I have explained already that any intervention or help is completely incompatible with the idea of a perfect work. No perfect work can conceivably require any further intervention by the workman – regardless that the workman is said to deploy the same principles in his further intervention. The mere act of intervening alone, even if in accordance with the principles earlier deployed by the workman, is sufficient to show that the workman had not done a complete job. This is clear. What is he returning to do, if the work was already done, perfect and dusted? ? ?

First of; subsequent creation is an indirect work of God; this I have already explained and there is no need repeating my explanation as to why subsequent creation is not as perfect as Primordial creation. Man on earth is also an indirect work of God(God created spirit germs), as I have already explained. This is why Man on earth is so wanting in perfections and this explains why he needed help.

Saying that man on earth was created by God is like saying that Satan was created by God. God created Lucifer, Lucifer turned himself to Satan. There is a distinction here which carries a lot of weight, and which must not be overlooked.

There is a reason why in some scriptures, man is reffered to as adopted children of God. Reflect on the word adopted.

And I remember a scripture we used to read when I was a child, and it goes: "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name."

As a child I always wondered: If all men are children of God. Why do the ones mentioned in the scripture need to be given this right?

So the notion that all men are children of God, works of God and hence God is acountable for thier imperfection is a very wrong notion.

While I do not draw from the scriptures, I only used the one above to induce reflection, knowing that you are familier to those texts. I do not claim that my perceptions are in accord with the Bible.


Deep Sight:

I cannot work with this as I have no idea where prophets come from. As far as my very limited understanding permits, I view them as human beings. Ditto for Lucifer – I do not know anything about such a being, or whether it even exists as described. Maybe one day I will know, but for now it will be false of me to say that I do. So sorry, this is not something I can work with.

Okay. Point well taken.

Deep Sight:

I am surprised you will compare a permanent standing law which forms the basis for existence as a whole (and which is described by the Message as “adamantine”) to the visit of a personal being who enters and then exits creation at a specific time.

When do the laws of creation exit creation, or cease to apply to creation? Never.

The example is not apt.

Sorry if my example isn’t apt; it was meant to induce reflection. Laws do not exit or leave creation, what we call laws in creation are manifestations of the Divine will.

But this Divine will did not originate in creation; my point is that everything doesn’t have to originate in creation for creation to be a perfect work. Every work whether perfect or imperfect still needs sustenance and maintenance.

The fact that your physical body depends on the air that it breaths to remain alive does not mean that the body is imperfect as such. Just as the physical body breaths air in and out, creation depends on the power of God.

Deep Sight:

But remember that in this case you are not only the writer of the book, but the maker of the students, and you have provided every possibility within the school for students to learn. If indeed the school is a perfect school, you need not visit. If you are compelled to, the school could not be said to be perfect, this is clear.

You should look to the school – which is the world. In this case you are the maker of the school as well, the book, and the students. I hope you see reason in these terms. In each of the examples you gave - you would be the maker if the ENTIRE SYSTEM - which is what God is - and as such you should look to the perfection of the entire system

I have already explained to you that God is not the maker of humans in subsequent creation as such; humans in subsequent creation developed from spirit germs.

The same way, the school-the world or subsequent creation is not a direct creation of God; and imperfections found in it should not be attributed to God.


Deep Sight:

Whence did mankind arise? The same maker, no?

NO! Mankind did not arise from God; Mankind arouse from spirit germs.

Deep Sight:

I am sorry to say, but this above, which I have always read in the Grail Message, only comes across as an excuse: my deepest apologies for having to say so.

I do not believe it is apt to speak of such things as “at great distances from God.”

This is your opinion and you are welcome to live by it. You don’t have to apologize for having expressed your opinion.

Deep Sight:

I tell you that, I view it as an almost insulting excuse – and this is why: GOD is said to be OUTSIDE creation, entirely away from finite space and time which is creation. I do not know by what parameters anybody can begin to speak about which worlds are at “great distances” from God, indeed, I am not even sure that the concept of distance is applicable at all in such a context, once you refer to God.

Once again this is your opinion. I have a feeling that you view God as the totality of everything in exsistance; this view does not sit well with me.

I percieve God as different from the totality of exsistance. I pecieve exsistance as the radiation of God and not God Himself. God is beyound exsistance.

Deep Sight:

Secondly, everything within creation is the work of God – directly or indirectly. To state that some aspects of creation are not the direct creation of God, may be fair – as we have agreed in the past – but it is altogether unfair, and I dare say, amounts to shirking responsibility – to claim that GOD does not remain responsible for ALL of creation – direct or indirect – as it all issued from God. Again, this comes across as another unpalatable excuse – we cannot begin to conceive of a perfect God, who issues a perfect primordial creation which in turn begins to issue imperfect subsequent creations. That would only mean that the Perfect God and his perfect primordial creation were not all that perfect if the perfect primordial creation could begin to issue imperfect subsequent creations.

God did not issue subsequent creation. Subsequent creation could be likened to the shadow or a reflection of the primordial creation. Subsequent creation could come into being due to the activity of the Primordial spiritual beings.

"Let us make man in our own image and likeness," I wonder who is the "us" in the above verse; it cannot be God because God is never described as "us". God is one. A certain friend of mine always says, "Oneness of infinity"


Deep Sight:

Unless you will repudiate a great deal of what is in the gospels, it is a hard sell to state that Jesus of Nazareth has nothing human about him.

Jesus is a part of God(Divinity unsubstantaite) He bears nothing human or spiritual within him; and He has reunited with the Father, in that He had returned to the Plane Divine unsubstantiality. Nothing spiritual or human can ever unite with the Father, or enter the into Divine unsubstantaility.

I do not draw this from the Bible or the gospels. I draw, as you already know, from the Grail Message.

As always thanks and remain blessed.
Re: M_nwankwo/ Justcool - Inconsistencies In The Grail Message by DeepSight(m): 6:40pm On Sep 24, 2010
Hello M_ Nwakwo -

I drew these quotations from 2008

Quote from: huxley on July 08, 2008, 07:02 PM

Is perfection and imperfection only an illusion? By the way, what is perfection? Can a perfect being give rise to imperfection?

Quoate from: M_Nwankwo in response -

Hi again. I do not think perfection or imperfection is an illusion. By perfection I mean eternal unchangable. Only God is perfect. No, I do not believe that imperfection can come from God or from the laws of God. Thanks

Does Subsequent creation not issue forth on account of the laws of God?

How do you suppose this squares up with that which I noted above - namely that -

we cannot begin to conceive of a perfect God, who issues a perfect primordial creation which in turn begins to issue imperfect subsequent creations. That would only mean that the Perfect God and his perfect primordial creation were not all that perfect if the perfect primordial creation could begin to issue imperfect subsequent creations.


In your post I read that there was no evil in the beginning and there will be no evil in the end - but that there is evil in between. Do you not feel that this is still evil in existence which rather contradicts what you have set out in the quote above - namely that imperfection cannot come from the laws of God - because the stark reality which we observe in the world is that the laws of God do permit imperfection, and indeed it may be said that the operation of those laws actually render such imperfections necessary. Now I must note carefully that this is only the case if we work with the definition of perfection that presumes only that which we see as "good" to be perfect.

As I noted, here -

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-411142.0.html

Perfection in the world could be understood differently.
Re: M_nwankwo/ Justcool - Inconsistencies In The Grail Message by mnwankwo(m): 11:50pm On Sep 26, 2010
Hi Deep Sight. Thank your for your last post. I reply as follows.

I drew these quotations from 2008

Quote from: huxley on July 08, 2008, 07:02 PM
Quote
Is perfection and imperfection only an illusion? By the way, what is perfection? Can a perfect being give rise to imperfection?

Quoate from: M_Nwankwo in response -
Quote
Hi again. I do not think perfection or imperfection is an illusion. By perfection I mean eternal unchangable. Only God is perfect. No, I do not believe that imperfection can come from God or from the laws of God. Thanks

Does Subsequent creation not issue forth on account of the laws of God?

How do you suppose this squares up with that which I noted above - namely that -

There is no contradiction between what I said to Huxley in 2008 and what I am saying now. Yes, subsequent creation was brought into existence by the laws of God but the laws of God did not create imperfections in subsequent creation. You seem not to see the essential difference between the laws of God and the application or use of the laws of God. The source of imperfection in subsequent creation is the misapplication of the laws of God by creatures that bear free will within themselves. The ability of free will in a human spirit is a part of the laws of God and rightly one can say that free will is created by the laws of God. But when free will is applied, that is, when one uses his free will, then the use of the free will is the responsibility of man, not God and the evil or good that arises from its application is the responsibility of the creature that bear free will.

When subsequent creation came into existence, the building blocks or radiations were present and these building blocks or radiations can only bring good or evil by union. In other words, it is the union of the precursor radiations in subsequent creation that results in good or evil. If in coming into union, these radiations are brought together according to their essential nature, then good will emerge but if these building blocks are pressed into union in such a way that contradicts there intrinsic nature, then evil results. And it is the decision from the human spirit and other creatures with free will that presses these countless unformed building block radiations into a form. The low energy content of these radiations in subsequent creation permits union in a variety of ways, a situation that is not possible with high energy radiations in realms higher than the subsequent creation. I may expand on this when an opportunity presents itself. But in the meantime, I am sure you will be able to sense that since subsequent creation is a realm for development of the spirit germs, it is natural that the building blocks can be brought into union in several ways.

God and the divine applies the laws of God in creation according to the will of God, that is radiations are mixed according to their intrinsic nature and thus only good and upward development results. But the human spirit misapplies the laws of God by bringing into being wrong unions, that is radiations are mixed in contradiction to there intrinsic nature and the outcome is evil, imperfections and retrogression. If an essence of God the Father enters creation, then there is a strengthing of forms such that the building blocks with wrong formed radiations liberate itself from such union with attendance disintegration of such unions. It is for this reason that the existence of evil is only temporal. As I mentioned in my penultimate mail, imperfection and evil were not in existence at the beginning and will also not be present in the end . If you divide the entrance of spirit germs into the earth plane into seven epochs comprising of about 600000 earth years, the first and second epochs were without sin and no trace of imperfection can be found in subsequent creation. Evil and imperfection happened with the fall man which occurred mid way in the third epoch. We are at the dawn of the fourth epoch which will signal the birth of the spiritual man or the birth of the man who lives solely according to the will of God. To ursher in this era in which the will of God will be done on earth as it is in heaven, many revolutionary changes will take place on earth. The fifth, sixth and seventh epochs will be paradisaical,   

Now a crude analogy may suffice. Imagine subsequent creation to be a book with blank pages, ink and pencil. The book, the Pencil and the Ink were created by the laws of God. The book, ink and pencil cannot singly or jointly inscribe anything on the blank pages of their own accord. Now, imagine that God gave the human spirit the ability to inscribe on the pages of the book using the book, the pencil and the Ink. Imagine that after some time, the pages of this book are no more blank but the human spirits have written on it. Some of the pages have beautiful stories while others have ugly stories. Now the laws of God created the ink, the pencil, the book with blank pages and the human spirit germ but did not create the inscribed pages or the stories in the inscribed pages. The stories in the book is the work of man, that is, the human spirits are responsible for both the beautiful and ugly stories, not God.

In your post I read that there was no evil in the beginning and there will be no evil in the end - but that there is evil in between. Do you not feel that this is still evil in existence which rather contradicts what you have set out in the quote above - namely that imperfection cannot come from the laws of God - because the stark reality which we observe in the world is that the laws of God do permit imperfection, and indeed it may be said that the operation of those laws actually render such imperfections necessary. Now I must note carefully that this is only the case if we work with the definition of perfection that presumes only that which we see as "good" to be perfect.

As I noted, here -

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-411142.0.html

Perfection in the world could be understood differently.

As I already stated above, imperfection cannot come from the laws of God but imperfection can come from the misuse or misapplication of the laws of God. In a similar vain perfection can result from applying the laws of God according to their nature, that is, using the laws of God according to the will of God. No, the laws of God do not render imperfection necessary. Rather the laws of God permits the ability of free will and the the perfection or imperfection arising from the use or misuse of free will is the sole responsibility of the creature that bears free will. God gave the spirit germ the talent of free will so that it can develop. There can be no spiritual development without the ability of free will. The imperfections that results from its misapplication is an aberration and not a necessity.

Perfection in absolute terms is an attribute that is in God. Thus, just like one can say that God is Truth, Light, Love, Life etc, one can also say God is Perfection. Outside of God, what you have is a relativity in perfection. The same relativity applies to time, space, motion etc. What is timelessness for one creature is time for another. I may expand on this later. In a similar vain, I hope I will find time to make a detailed contribution on your thread on warfare in nature. As always stay blessed.
Re: M_nwankwo/ Justcool - Inconsistencies In The Grail Message by justcool(m): 3:55am On Sep 27, 2010
@Deepsight,

On re-reading your last post addressed to me, I noticed that I missed your point in the following question:
Deep Sight:

Secondly, everything within creation is the work of God – directly or indirectly. To state that some aspects of creation are not the direct creation of God, may be fair – as we have agreed in the past – but it is altogether unfair, and I dare say, amounts to shirking responsibility – to claim that GOD does not remain responsible for ALL of creation – direct or indirect – as it all issued from God. Again, this comes across as another unpalatable excuse – we cannot begin to conceive of a perfect God, who issues a perfect primordial creation which in turn begins to issue imperfect subsequent creations. That would only mean that the Perfect God and his perfect primordial creation were not all that perfect if the perfect primordial creation could begin to issue imperfect subsequent creations.

That is going round in circles and is absolutely unacceptable.

I do not think that subsequent creation is imperfect as such; although not comparable to Primodial creation in perfection, especially in the eyes of the human spirit. Subsequent creation is designed in such a way that the will of man, the human spirit rules in subsequent creation. It is designed in such a way that it allows anything that is willed by man to arise and take on form; thus it can allow evil to arise. This is as a help to the maturing spirit-germs, in that on seeing the forms or the effects of their decisions, they will recognize whether they have made the right decision or not.

Like all schools, during training or learning, the student is allowed to experiment. An example is a man learning to fly. During the time he is learning on the flight simulator he can make a thousand wrong decisions, he can experiment, make wrong moves and etc; the flight simulator shows him the consequence of each of his moves and decisions. Through this he matures, and when he is finally flying a real plane he will never make such mistakes.

Due to reduced pressure of the power of God in subsequent creation, the will of the human spirit rules; thus subsequent creation is subject to the will of man. This is why man can plunge it into ruins and why man can also make it a replica of Paradise. Also due this reduced pressure and the fact that matter is very dense and density causes obstruction, the laws delay in their operation in subsequent creation. The laws of God still apply here in subsequent creation, but their effect is delayed; this is also for the benefit of the growing human-spirit.

The reduced motion and the reduced pressure, gives the spirit time to reflect and mature. In an environment of high pressure, which entails very fast operation of the laws, like in Paradise, the spirit-germ would not be able to function like matured spirit do because the spirit-germ lacks the ability to withstand such high pressure and remain conscious.

The laws, which in Primodial creation operate as one and with immediate effect, slow down and split into various forms in subsequent creation due to the reduced pressure. This is also for the benefit of the developing spirit-germ. Just like a teacher slows down a process, and gives various examples so that the students can grasp the concept or the process. The developing spirit-germ cannot deal with the laws in their united form; but it can deal with their different manifestations as it matures. And soon it will mature to a stage where it understands that there are not many laws but one law, which is love. All that we call laws are nothing but the manifestations of the love of God. All the commandments collapses to the one commandment--Love

Also, subsequent creation no matter how perfected, can never completely satisfy the human spirit. The degree of perfection that matter can achieve can never be comparable the degree of perfection that spiritual substance can achieve. If we think of perfection as 'heat', each substance has a specific heat capacity; a thin foil will never be as hot a large piece of iron when both are heated. Thus each specie of creation has a specific 'perfection' capacity. The spiritual substance having separated from the radiation of God at the vicinity of God can bear more heat than the material substance, which separated much later, and at a further distance; consequently the spiritual substance can bear more perfection than material substance. Each specie of creation has a specific limit which cannot be bridged; just as water cannot burn as fast as petrol, or just as a piece of styrofoam cannot sink as deeply as a piece of iron can in water. Each substance is bound by the limits of its specie.

The human spirit being spiritual can only find ultimate satisfaction in Paradise, which is a spiritual place. Any perfection below what is achieved with spiritual substance or in the spiritual plane will remain unsatisfactory to the human spirit; by the same token, the spirit cannot conceive of the perfection of the planes above the spiritual. This is why the Divine plane will remain a perpetual mystery to the human spirit. The perfection of matter, no matter how much matter is perfected, it can never completely quench the spirit’s thirst for perfection. From this fact of life we can safely deduce that the Divine can never find ultimate satisfaction in creation, but will always long to return to its plane. This realization gives us a glimpse of the enormity of the sacrifice that the sons(Jesus and Imanuel) of God perform when they leave their plane of origin, which is the Divine unsubstantial plane, to deliver us help in creation. Each minute spent by Jesus on earth is a sacrifice of love, the enormity of which we human spirits can not conceive. Think about the son of man that is perpetually anchored outside the Devine unsubstantial plane. The melancholic and nostalgic longings that we human spirits feel on earth when we think about Paradise is not enough to lift a veil on what Jesus felt on earth.

To digress a little: When a human being sees nature as the most beautiful thing that can be, such sentiments which is exalted as an expression of maturity, is actually an indication that the individual's lack of spirituality. Just as lack of shyness in exposing ones unclothedness is viewed today as progress; this lack of shyness is actually an indication of lack of spirituality.

Now back to the issue at hand. As to why subsequent creation came issued out of Primodial creation. Subsequent creation was formed in answer to the prayers or the unconsciouse longing of the spirit-germs in Paradise, to be allowed to develop to human spirits; or to be created. Since the presure of the light in Paradise was too much to allow the spirit-germs to develop to consciousness, the only option left was to let them proceed further from the presure of the vicinity of God.
In answer to the longing of the spirit-germs, God allowed His servants, the animistic beings to form the worlds of matter into which the spirit-germs would incarnate and mature. The world of matter was formed as a shadow or a coarse reflection of the Primodial creations. The magnetic effects of the activity of the Primodial Spiritual beings at the summit of Primodial creation reached down into the worlds matter, pulling, carressing and awakening the spirit-germs into activity. Under the influence of this magnetic radiations, the spirit-germs can develop themselves, each modeling itself after the Primodial spiritual beings. Like salvation ropes, the radiations of the Primodial spirits, hang above the spirit-germs, pulling and awakening thier qualities.

So to summarize my points:
1) The laws of God which are perfect operate in subsequent creation, as much as they operate in Primordial creation; only that in subsequent creation, their effect (speed) is delayed.
2) The basic components of subsequent creation are perfect but the forms that need the mediation of the will of man to arise may or may not be perfect depending on the maturity of the spirit whose will gave rise to the form.
3) Subsequent creation is subject to the will of man; thus the condition on it depends on the maturity or lawfulness of the spirits living in it.
4) The human spirit being spiritual is subject to a higher degree of perfection and beauty, and will always find the worlds matter wanting in perfection and beauty.
5) Subsequent creation was formed as a school for the development of the spirit-germs who longed for development.
6) The magnetic or attracting radiations of the Primodial spiritual beings reach down into subsequent creation offering the spirit-germs all that they need for devlop themselves; in the way of attraction, the Primodial beigns pull on the spiritual qualities slumbering within the spirit germs caressing these qualities into activity.

I thought you had asked why God created a perfect Primordial creation and went on to create an imperfect subsequent creation; that’s why I answered that God did not directly create subsequent creation, which as a shadow of Primordial creation, was formed in the image of the Primordial creation by the animistic beings following the volition of the Primordial spiritual beings.

The moment the spirit germs incarnated into subsequent creation, it became subject to the will of these spirit-germs.

Thanks and remain blessed.
Re: M_nwankwo/ Justcool - Inconsistencies In The Grail Message by DeepSight(m): 2:13pm On Nov 27, 2010
Due to reduced pressure of the power of God in subsequent creation, the will of the human spirit rules;

Is it really realistic to speak about "reduced pressure of the power of God" - - - - for if you reflect closely, does this not amount to view God as finite.

For any element to have gradations, more so reducing gradations of its power, that power must have a finite degree which begins to reduce to lesser degrees.

No infinite element or infinite power can be conceived in these terms. No "reduction" is conceivable in infinity.

. . . thus subsequent creation is subject to the will of man.

And not subject to the laws of God? ? ?

Does this abrogate the "perfect" laws of God as applicable to subsequent creation?

Is it not STILL those laws that rule even subsequent creation?

If so, why are those laws unable to deliver a "perfect" subsequent creation. . .or are those laws imperfect?
Re: M_nwankwo/ Justcool - Inconsistencies In The Grail Message by 49cents(m): 6:37pm On Nov 27, 2010
just droppe to say hi andsay sorry for'diappearing' remain blessed
m_nwankwo:

Hi Deep Sight. Thank your for your last post. I reply as follows.

There is no contradiction between what I said to Huxley in 2008 and what I am saying now. Yes, subsequent creation was brought into existence by the laws of God but the laws of God did not create imperfections in subsequent creation. You seem not to see the essential difference between the laws of God and the application or use of the laws of God. The source of imperfection in subsequent creation is the misapplication of the laws of God by creatures that bear free will within themselves. The ability of free will in a human spirit is a part of the laws of God and rightly one can say that free will is created by the laws of God. But when free will is applied, that is, when one uses his free will, then the use of the free will is the responsibility of man, not God and the evil or good that arises from its application is the responsibility of the creature that bear free will.

When subsequent creation came into existence, the building blocks or radiations were present and these building blocks or radiations can only bring good or evil by union. In other words, it is the union of the precursor radiations in subsequent creation that results in good or evil. If in coming into union, these radiations are brought together according to their essential nature, then good will emerge but if these building blocks are pressed into union in such a way that contradicts there intrinsic nature, then evil results. And it is the decision from the human spirit and other creatures with free will that presses these countless unformed building block radiations into a form. The low energy content of these radiations in subsequent creation permits union in a variety of ways, a situation that is not possible with high energy radiations in realms higher than the subsequent creation. I may expand on this when an opportunity presents itself. But in the meantime, I am sure you will be able to sense that since subsequent creation is a realm for development of the spirit germs, it is natural that the building blocks can be brought into union in several ways.

God and the divine applies the laws of God in creation according to the will of God, that is radiations are mixed according to their intrinsic nature and thus only good and upward development results. But the human spirit misapplies the laws of God by bringing into being wrong unions, that is radiations are mixed in contradiction to there intrinsic nature and the outcome is evil, imperfections and retrogression. If an essence of God the Father enters creation, then there is a strengthing of forms such that the building blocks with wrong formed radiations liberate itself from such union with attendance disintegration of such unions. It is for this reason that the existence of evil is only temporal. As I mentioned in my penultimate mail, imperfection and evil were not in existence at the beginning and will also not be present in the end . If you divide the entrance of spirit germs into the earth plane into seven epochs comprising of about 600000 earth years, the first and second epochs were without sin and no trace of imperfection can be found in subsequent creation. Evil and imperfection happened with the fall man which occurred mid way in the third epoch. We are at the dawn of the fourth epoch which will signal the birth of the spiritual man or the birth of the man who lives solely according to the will of God. To ursher in this era in which the will of God will be done on earth as it is in heaven, many revolutionary changes will take place on earth. The fifth, sixth and seventh epochs will be paradisaical,

Now a crude analogy may suffice. Imagine subsequent creation to be a book with blank pages, ink and pencil. The book, the Pencil and the Ink were created by the laws of God. The book, ink and pencil cannot singly or jointly inscribe anything on the blank pages of their own accord. Now, imagine that God gave the human spirit the ability to inscribe on the pages of the book using the book, the pencil and the Ink. Imagine that after some time, the pages of this book are no more blank but the human spirits have written on it. Some of the pages have beautiful stories while others have ugly stories. Now the laws of God created the ink, the pencil, the book with blank pages and the human spirit germ but did not create the inscribed pages or the stories in the inscribed pages. The stories in the book is the work of man, that is, the human spirits are responsible for both the beautiful and ugly stories, not God.

As I already stated above, imperfection cannot come from the laws of God but imperfection can come from the misuse or misapplication of the laws of God. In a similar vain perfection can result from applying the laws of God according to their nature, that is, using the laws of God according to the will of God. No, the laws of God do not render imperfection necessary. Rather the laws of God permits the ability of free will and the the perfection or imperfection arising from the use or misuse of free will is the sole responsibility of the creature that bears free will. God gave the spirit germ the talent of free will so that it can develop. There can be no spiritual development without the ability of free will. The imperfections that results from its misapplication is an aberration and not a necessity.

Perfection in absolute terms is an attribute that is in God. Thus, just like one can say that God is Truth, Light, Love, Life etc, one can also say God is Perfection. Outside of God, what you have is a relativity in perfection. The same relativity applies to time, space, motion etc. What is timelessness for one creature is time for another. I may expand on this later. In a similar vain, I hope I will find time to make a detailed contribution on your thread on warfare in nature. As always stay blessed.

Re: M_nwankwo/ Justcool - Inconsistencies In The Grail Message by justcool(m): 8:31pm On Nov 28, 2010
Deep Sight:

Is it really realistic to speak about "reduced pressure of the power of God" - - - - for if you reflect closely, does this not amount to view God as finite.

For any element to have gradations, more so reducing gradations of its power, that power must have a finite degree which begins to reduce to lesser degrees.

No infinite element or infinite power can be conceived in these terms. No "reduction" is conceivable in infinity.

No. It does not amount to God being finite. We are talking about the pressure brought about by the power of God and not God Himself. It is this pressure that slackens and not God Himself.

Also consider, the fact the power of God can be separated into gradations is a testament to the infinity of this power and God. Consider, infinity means that which can be divided infinitely without arriving at an end. Even in mathematics, if you divide infinity you arrive at infinity or undefined.

While God and His power are infinite, only a potion of this power enters creation. Creation is a piece of work, and thus finite. Nothing infinite can be contained in a finite work; therefore the infinite power of God cannot, in its entirety, be contained in creation; creation can only make use of a potion of this power.

When we talk about gradation; it is not the power of God that is divided as such; gradation arise from the fact that creatures, being finite, cannot make use of an infinite power in its entirety and all at once. Each creature can only take as much as its nature allows it to take from the power of God. The power of God contains all that is and all that can ever be thus infinite; the spirits, being spiritual can only make use of the spiritual components of this power. The animistic can only make use of the animistic components of the same infinite power of God. Consequently, it follows that that which proceeds from the spirits or that power which passes through the spirits is only spiritual power which can be viewed as a gradation of the power of God.

This power of God has not been divided as such; it remains whole and inexhaustible.

To go deeper and deeper into this issue. It is my perception that the power of God which is infinite remains only with God and in God. God is the ultimate and only power. Power exerts pressure; even science can prove this. This pressure is a result of the power and not the Power itself. What we call power in creation is actually the pressure exerted by the power of God. Just as Light radiates, so does Power produce pressure. Only God is Light, Power and Life; these things are one in God, and they do not exist outside of God as such.

Therefore I was using the expression ‘power in creation’ only very loosely, for in reality there is no power in creation. By Power I mean the ability to produce energy, and this only exists in God. In creation what we observe as ‘power’ or ‘being powerful’ is just the ability to use or utilize energy. Thus the more energy a thing uses over time or the more energy that passes through it, the powerful we say the thing is. We say that the primordial spirits are powerful than human spirits because the primordial spirits uses a higher energy(the primordial energy) and thus produce more powerful works than the human spirits can.

But power actually(the ability to create energy) lies only with God. His is the Power and this Power is infinite.

In-order to explain further, I will offer my perception as to what energy is since I mentioned the word energy which should not be confused with power. What we call energy in creation, or outside of God, owes its existence to the radiation of God. The pressure resulting from the Power of God pushes the radiation, or propels the radiation. In the vicinity of God, this pressure is enormous and forces everything(the radiation) to go in a straight line. Going very further away from the vicinity of God, this pressure slackens and consequently deposits results from the radiation. Everything in existence owes its existence to this deposits that result of the radiation of God due to the slacking of the pressure that propels this radiation. First the substances that formed the Divine substantial plane separated or deposited off the radiation at the first slacking of pressure or cooling off. Components of the radiations that were not strong enough to take on form circulated at the border of the Divine substantial plane filled with the urge to be created or be formed. At this point the pressure is still too great that nothing wrong or against the will of God can exist.
Then with the words “Let there be Light” God allowed this radiation to proceed even further than the Divine substantial plane, resulting a region further away from God and thus a region of less pressure. In this region of less pressure the first and the strongest component of this unformed radiation, or the Primordial spiritual component of the radiation was able to take on form; this resulted the Primordial Spiritual planes, along with the Primordial spirits, Primordial beings, angels and etc. Then this process continued further and further as the radiation proceeded further away from the Light until the pressure has been slackened enough for the worlds of matter to separate from the radiation or be deposited off the radiation. There is no need going into details since you are already familiar with the process. Just like a homogeneous bowl of hot soup separates into components as the soup cools off, so did the components of the radiations of God separate and formed planes as the radiations moved further and further away from God and cooled off.
What we call energy are actually these deposits that resulted from the radiation of God due to the cooling off of the radiation, a cooling off brought about by the slacking of pressure. This substance, the primordial spiritual substance that first deposited from the radiation of God is the source of all energies in creation. Thus the spiritual substances are nothing but condensed spiritual energy. This energy permeates the entire creation; it is the little spiritual substances that stream out of the spiritual realm that give rise to energy in the planes lower than the spiritual. The core of every substance, even physical substance, is spiritual energy or spiritual dust. We call this energy physical energy, when the spirit dust carrying the energy, in addition to other coverings also gets covered by physical matter. This gives rise to the basic physical substances that make up the atom. Energy itself is actually spirit.

Therefore what slackens is the pressure exerted by the Power and not the Power itself, which resides only in God.

Deep Sight:

And not subject to the laws of God? ? ?

Does this abrogate the "perfect" laws of God as applicable to subsequent creation?

Is it not STILL those laws that rule even subsequent creation?

If so, why are those laws unable to deliver a "perfect" subsequent creation. . .or are those laws imperfect?

Like I said earlier, subsequent creation is subject to the same Primordial laws of creation that governs primordial creation. But due to the nature of subsequent creation the laws operate or manifest slower. Each manifestation is adapted to the nature of the specie concerned.
I will give you an example, perhaps you can do does little scientific experiment yourself:
Take three transparent containers and fill each one with clear or transparent liquids of different viscosities. You can put water in one, clear oil in another, gasoline in the next.
Now put the containers next to each other and in a dark room direct the beam of a flash light through the containers. You will notice that the light refracts differently upon entering each container. What does this tell you?
The speed of the light is adjusted to the density of the liquid that it is passing through. It is the same beam of light that is passing through each container yet it manifests differently in each depending on the nature or density of the liquid in the container.

The same way as the speed of a ray of light passing through different liquids changes to the density of the liquids; so does the laws of creation, which manifests in all the planes of creation manifest differently, in speed, depending on the density of the plane concerned.

Density causes obstruction; this even earthly science has observed. Granted the laws still manifest; and are still perfect; but their speed is reduced, adjusted to the nature of the plane concerned. A quick example: In Paradise action and reaction are one. Once a decision is made the reaction becomes evident right away. But on earth the reaction(karma) may take years or even centuries to return to the person who made the decision.

The developing human spirit need the slow down of the process so that it can catch up; have sufficient time to way and examine his decisions, and learn from his mistakes. All these things will not be possible for the spirit germ in Paradise because the spirit germ is not able to summon enough pressure and motion within itself to counter balance the pressure and speedy motion of events in paradise. The spirit germ is just too weak to make a decision or awaken in such an environment, the pressure is too much for it to swim in; hence it needs a place of less pressure to allow it to awaken.

Swimmers do not learn to swim in deep oceans of fast current. Their undeveloped abilities are not enough to deal with the changes of the deep and fast ocean. They start in a pool which has no current or in a river/ lake of very slow current. Only such slow currents will allow them to develop their abilities so that one day they may be able to deal with the ocean.

In every school, the process being learned is slowed down during the teaching process so that each student can catch up. Also in schools the opportunity to repeat is given to the students. But in the job these opportunities are not given; in some jobs little mistakes can result in the death of the individual. A pilot can make a thousand mistakes during flight simulation; but in the cockpit of a real plane he is not allowed to make mistakes.

The world of matter is a school for the human spirits. Opportunities to repeat are given to the spirits through reincarnation. Just as not all students succeed in a school; not all human spirits succeed in subsequent creation.

When I said subsequent creation is subject to the will of man, what I mean is that the will of the spirits causes pressure in every substance or specie below it, with this pressure the spirit can mould these substances. Thus the condition of subsequent creation becomes what man wills; if man’s will is in accord with the will of God, subsequent creation will flourish and become like paradise, but if mans will is evil, so will his environment(subsequent creation) be. If you had followed my explanation in this post about the slacking pressure of the power, you can deduce why the will of man rules in subsequent creation.
The pressure is so reduced in subsequent creation and man, having originated from a world of stronger pressure, carries a will which is stronger than all in subsequent creation because this will is spiritual, or comes from the spirit germ. Although the spirit germ is too weak to awaken in paradise, its will has a very strong affect on matter. But the post powerful and the everlasting, even in the world of matter, remains the will of God. Although due to the slackened pressure its effect is slowed down, allowing the will of man to be realized; but in the final analysis, the will of God reigns. All alien wills are only temporally.

Imagine a current of water; imagine a river that started on a hill, falling down to make a water fall. At the vicinity of the source, where the river is pouring down as a waterfall, it is impossible to swim against the currents. No matter how strong a man is, he cannot swim against the currents of a waterfall up to the hill. But further down where the ground is level, the current reduces. It can reduce to an extent that even a child can swim against it. Therefore at this part of the river, the swimmer can decide which direction to swim; he can swim against the currents, across it, or with it. But if he continues to swim against this seemingly very weak current, in time he will become tired and exhausted, then the current will carry him along. Finally the seemingly weak current wins.
Creation can be liked to this river. Close to the source, at the water fall where the currents are too strong represents the vicinity of God where the pressure of His power is too enormous to allow an alien will to arise.
At the part of the river where the ground is level and the current is seemingly weak could be likened to the worlds of matter.
The strongest and most able fishes are found close to the source because they can swim in such fast current. These fishes represent the beings in the planes of the vicinity of God. The laziest and slowest fishes are found at place where the current is slow, these fishes represents the human spirits in subsequent creation.
Also close to the source where the current is strong and fast, conditions are better, the water is cleaner, has more oxygen and etc. At the place of slow current the water of the river is often stale and polluted.
Now compare this analogy with conditions in creation.

Also a fisherman in a canoe can direct his canoe to what ever direction he will; the seemingly weak currents at this part of the river will allow him to do this. But in the finale analysis, for him to survive in river, he must learn to make use of the currents and go along with them.

This fisherman in a canoe can be likened to the man, and the canoe can be likened to represent man’s environment or subsequent creation.

A good ferryman man can travel vast distances with the least effort, because he knows how to adjust himself to the current and let the current carry him along. This is all the human spirit needs to do; he only needs to adjust himself aright, and the laws of God will carry him, with neither delay nor hast, he will achieve spiritual maturity or fruition. The currents of creation are carrying everything towards fruition.

At the point when mankind out lack of mobility entangled themselves on the river, completely blocking the way for those willing to flow with the current. If God hadn’t intervened, in time even those with good volition would loose faith and weary in the face of constant blockage and sultry atmosphere. They prayed to God for help, and wherever one exists who can still be helped, God will help; so God in His great love sent a part of Himself-Jesus.

He was like a catalyst thrown into subsequent creation, His existence in subsequent creation speeded up the river current. Destroying the blockade set up by the spiritual highwaymen, so that those who wished to could find their way back.

But towards the end, God gives does an act of grace; by allowing a part of Holy Will to incarnate into subsequent creation, He speeds up the current of the river. At this point all that was hidden is washed to the surface. All that is rightly adjusted to the current will achieve their goal and all that impedes the currents will be mercilessly forced to bend or brake. That which stands in the way is destroyed, thus making way for righteous.

Parsifal is the waterfall through which these currents enter into the river of creation; or Parsifal is a giant turbine through which water flows into creation, giving rise to currents which although very strong at His vicinity, slacken at the furthers border or subsequent creation. At this period of grace, Parsifal appears at the place where the current was hitherto weak, at subsequent creation. A great turbine is put at this part of the river, forcing the river current to speed up till all that obstructs the movement is destroyed. At this point the ferryman swimming against the current, will be confronted by an enormous impetuses to turn around, the tubule may cause him to loose grip of his boat and sink into the abyss if he refuses to change. These events will also be evidenced on nature, as this impetus will cause turbulence where it meets resistance. Volcanoes may erupt, giant tornadoes may appear, or rivers may run blood; as it once happened with Pharaoh of ancient Egypt when he tried to check the impetus. Or as it happened during the world wars and is still happening today. This is the time of tribulation which will result in the spiritual death of many, and also the salvation of many.
It is both a blessing, a grace from God; and a curse, a period of grate tribulation. It all depends on how the individual adjusts him/herself to the powerful currents from on high. The currents will be so intensified that subsequent creation would no longer be at the mercy of the will of man. Man loses his ability to rule in subsequent creation, where everything will be directly subjected to the will of God. The currents will be so strong that all that is evil will be not be able to exist anymore. The day of the much awaited period of peace dawns. As it was in the beginning so shall it be in the end.
Parsifal is synonymous with the son of Man: through Parsifal and out of Parsifal arises, Imanuel, the much awaited son of man.
Re: M_nwankwo/ Justcool - Inconsistencies In The Grail Message by justcool(m): 3:59am On Jan 09, 2011
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Re: M_nwankwo/ Justcool - Inconsistencies In The Grail Message by DeepSight(m): 10:51am On Apr 19, 2011
This was a truly rewarding and enriching  thread , although the question still remains: is the idea of intervention compatible with the idea of a perfect system? I still think not.

When i consider all the worlds that must exist, it beats me to imagine God severing parts of itself to proceed into a material world to personally render assistance within such a material world. It just doesn't sound right in terms of the conception of a transcendental God.
Re: M_nwankwo/ Justcool - Inconsistencies In The Grail Message by Jenwitemi(m): 12:00pm On Apr 19, 2011
Maybe the world is not meant to be a "perfect" system of existence. Or maybe it's perfection lies in it's state of imperfection. That allows for evolution at all levels of the system giving it(the system), as it moves from a state of chaos(high entropy) to a state of more order, harmony and love(low entropy), LIFE.
The universe is a living organism meaning that it must continue to evolve from one state to another. My view. smiley
Deep Sight:

This was a truly rewarding and enriching  thread , although the question still remains: is the idea of intervention compatible with the idea of a perfect system? I still think not.

When i consider all the worlds that must exist, it beats me to imagine God severing parts of itself to proceed into a material world to personally render assistance within such a material world. It just doesn't sound right in terms of the conception of a transcendental God.
Re: M_nwankwo/ Justcool - Inconsistencies In The Grail Message by DeepSight(m): 12:12pm On Apr 19, 2011
Jenwitemi:

Maybe the world is not meant to be a "perfect" system of existence. Or maybe it's perfection lies in it's state of imperfection. That allows for evolution at all levels of the system giving it(the system), as it moves from a state of chaos(high entropy) to a state of more order, harmony and love(low entropy), LIFE. The universe isaliving organism meaning that it must continue toevolvefromone state to another. My view. smiley

This is an excellent thought. However the thread concerns -

1. The idea of the perfection of the laws of God for creation vis-a-vis -

2. The idea that God in spite if (1) above, caused himself or a part thereof to personally incarnate within the material world for the purpose of rendering help therein.

- - - Specifically as both ideas are set out within the spirit and letter of the Grail Message.
Re: M_nwankwo/ Justcool - Inconsistencies In The Grail Message by Jenwitemi(m): 12:21pm On Apr 19, 2011
Deep Sight:

This is an excellent thought. However the thread concerns -

1. The idea of the perfection of the laws of God for creation vis-a-vis -

2. The idea that God in spite if (1) above, caused himself or a part thereof to personally incarnate within the material world for the purpose of rendering help therein.


- - - Specifically as both ideas are set out within the spirit and letter of the Grail Message.
That is a religious concept or idea in which i do not share. Let me leave this to those who believe in it. smiley
Re: M_nwankwo/ Justcool - Inconsistencies In The Grail Message by justcool(m): 7:46pm On Apr 19, 2011
Deep Sight:

This was a truly rewarding and enriching thread , although the question still remains: is the idea of intervention compatible with the idea of a perfect system? I still think not.

When i consider all the worlds that must exist, it beats me to imagine God severing parts of itself to proceed into a material world to personally render assistance within such a material world. It just doesn't sound right in terms of the conception of a transcendental God.

@Deepsight
Your premises do not add-up; you neglect one very important fact. And that is the fact that humans in subsequent creation are not perfect. Therein lies the solution to the puzzle.

These laws reverberate in all parts of creation; being perfect or harbingers of perfection, where ever imperfection of disharmony seeks to arise, these laws will eliminate it. In other words everything that is not in accord with the Will of God is fated to annihilation.

God is perfect so are His laws. The human spirits in subsequent creation are not perfect, and hence their imperfection (misuse of their freewill) gave rise to the situation that occurred.

The Laws of God in creation, and even subsequent creation, are enough to deal with the situation; everything that is not in accord with the will of God, including majority of mankind, was headed to destruction. Left alone the laws of God are sufficient to deal with this dissolution of all that is wrong.

The duration of the forms in subsequent creation depends on its distance from the light, or how much it is permeated by the light. At a certain distance, the forms, including the planets and etc., will swing sluggishly and begin to disintegrate. For, as you already know, all material forms are transient.

Due to the misuse of their freewill, mankind cut the material worlds off from the stream of light. The material worlds became heavier and based on the law of gravity, it sank further away from the light. The consequence is destruction of all material forms. In this destruction, all spirit germs will still return back to Paradise, but as unconscious spirit germs. Since almost all mankind, even the good ones were not yet matured enough to exist consciously in Paradise.

This will be tantamount to closing a school due to the bad behavior of some bad students who had set the school on fire, at the detriment of the good ones who were not yet ready to graduate. Even this will not make the school or the laws that operate on it imperfect. Consider another example: An apple tree that is cut off from its source of water. The tree is bound to die and disintegrate; all the fruits on it will have to fall, both the good and bad ones. And if all the fruits on the tree are still in the process of formation, they are all bound to destruction because they are not matured enough to survive, to germinate on the soil they will fall into. Now back to the school analogy, consider a school where the bad students, out fear of failing, set the school on fire. The consequence is that the school will be closed and every student, including the good ones will be sent home. But not sent home as graduates, -- Engineers, lawyers and etc., -- on the contrary they will be sent home without their degrees because they did not graduate. These are just analogies though.

Is there any imperfection in the case of the laws that caused the apple tree to die? No! The trees life depends on water; this is the law and this law is perfect. It is simply the nature of the tree and all living things to need water. Is there injustice in this? No! The imperfection and injustice is found on the person who cuts the tree off its supply of water.
In the case of the school. Is there any imperfection to the laws that where there is oxygen, fuel, and ignition, fire will result? No! The imperfection is to be found in the bad students who ignited the school (fuel) and burned it down. Should we blame nature or the school authority for allowing air (oxygen) to exist in the school? No! Can we blame the school authority for sending the students home, even though they had not graduated? No! We can only blame the students, who out of lack of consideration for their fellow students, set the school on fire.

What I'm trying to say is that even if Jesus hadn’t come, (1) the laws of God would have in the end rectified the situation justly by separating all spirits from matter and allowing all the worlds of matter to pass through the funnel of disintegration, in-order to be born new; thus recreate or reform anew. (2)Only that the consequence would be that the entire mankind may be lost, because they are not yet ready to graduate; thus, like the students retuning home without their degrees, spirit germs will return to Paradise without the conscious personality that they went into matter to achieve. (3) Still this process would not be called injustice. It is actually justice; justice for the worlds of matter and all other non-human beings in it who have suffered due to the failure of mankind. Just like you wouldn’t blame the school authority for sending the students home, without graduating, in-order to put out the fire; nobody would blame the laws of God for allowing matter to pass through the funnel of disintegration, without any human spirit graduating. This disintegration is actually a necessity for the existence of matter; all that is material passes through the four stages of birth, blossoming, ripeness, and decay. The blame solely lies with the bad students or the human spirits who misused their free-will. The destruction of all the personalities (even those that still had the possibility of succeeding, the good ones) achieved till then, also, would not be injustice, because the human spirits failed to maintain the order in their school, they failed to be good students and they set the school on fire.

But the love of God went further than just allowing things to take their course. The perfection of God will not allow anything that is pure to be destroyed; the Love of God would not allow anybody who still had the possibility of success to be destroyed. The system created by God proved to be more perfect than the school mentioned above; for God would not send any spirit who can still make it, back without giving it all the time that it needed to develop. Neither would the love of God turn a deaf ear to their prayers for salvation. Intuitively, they sensed that their school was heading to a premature closure, due to the bad behavior of many students, and they prayed to God for help. So for the sake of those who still possessed the possibility of success, and in answer to their prayer God forcibly intervened by sending His Divine light into subsequent creation.

The fact that the laws of God in creation allow such a visit or mission of redemption show that the whole system is perfect, since the laws are part of the system.

Rather than seeing it as imperfection, you should see it as a testament that God’s perfection is beyond and more perfect than our highest conception of perfection.

A parent who sends an extra professor to his child at school. This does not mean that the school is insufficient to teach the child, it does not mean that the school system is not good. It only means that the love of the parents is so much that despite sending the child to the best school, this parents still sends extra help for the child when the child is about to fail.

When I was in high school, after sending me to school with sufficient money, my father shows up sometimes to give me more money. Does this mean that he didn’t give me enough at first? No! It is only a testament of his love; for it would not be injustice if doesn’t show up from time to time to give me extra money.

An extra help does not mean that the system is imperfect. The word extra already implies “more than sufficient, more than needed.” The love of God has no limit, it never sleeps, its eternally watchful, never thinks of itself but always ready to help wherever possible. The love of God is ready to wait hand and foot even for one person who still possessed the possibility of salvation, this is something that even a Divine being, Lucifer found it hard to comply to.

The mission of Jesus was an extra help given to mankind. It was a work of love, a love of such magnitude that no human being can fully comprehend it. For GOD IS LOVE.

Even if this extra help wasn’t given, the laws of God in creation would have gradually and in the end eliminate all that is evil, only that due to the weakness of mankind, in time even those humans who were still good would lose hope and fall along with the fallen ones. Almost all mankind would have been lost in the process, out of their own guilt and not out of the imperfection of the Laws of God or creation.

The coming of the light(Jesus and Imanuel) into subsequent creation only speeded up the process and caused a gulf between evil and good. Those un-detachably tied to darkness gets pushed further into the realms of darkness, into prediction, while those who still had good in them received enough strength from the light to carry on with their volition for what is good.

It is this separation of light from darkness that was pictorially described by Paul in the bible; it was misunderstood by many and hence the concept of rapture developed among many. Rapture is nothing but the speedy separation of light from darkness, this is happening on earth today.

I will end by repeating: The mission of Jesus was an extra help given to mankind. It was a work of love, a love of such magnitude that no human being can fully comprehend it. For GOD IS LOVE.


Thanks and remain blessed.
Re: M_nwankwo/ Justcool - Inconsistencies In The Grail Message by DeepSight(m): 2:57pm On Apr 20, 2011
Hello Justcool,

I thank you for your post above, which i have taken the time to read in detail. We have already within this thread been over and over the core issues raised and as such I feel that it would not be fruitful for me to belabour the issues yet again. Rather than do that, let me simply assure you that I very much appreciate your viewpoint, and I must in that regard specifically note that that viewpoint of yours is hinged upon the notion of a personal God; an interventionist, and therewith personal God.

My view is different and that is why I have said some of the things that I have said. I  believe that God is transcendent, and that that very quality of transcendence is diametrically opposed to the notion of a personal, interventionist God.

There are certain things contained even within your own last post that hammer home this point.

Example: -

You said -

The Laws of God in creation, and even subsequent creation, are enough to deal with the situation; everything that is not in accord with the will of God, including majority of mankind, was headed to destruction. Left alone the laws of God are sufficient to deal with this dissolution of all that is wrong.

- - - Which bears out the fact that the laws of God are sufficient to deal with all circumstances.

You also said -

What I'm trying to say is that even if Jesus hadn’t come, (1) the laws of God would have in the end rectified the situation justly by separating all spirits from matter and allowing all the worlds of matter to pass through the funnel of disintegration, in-order to be born new; thus recreate or reform anew.


- - - Which is in keeping with the adamantine nature of God.

These parts of your posts are more than enough to ground that which is my belief: namely that the laws of God will work justice in every scenario unnassisted by any need for a special ambassador from the Light - because the laws themselves are an emanation of the Light!

Finally let me just say one more thing. You talked about the great love of God facilitating "extra help." Think about this carefully. Do you really believe this. What do we mean when we say that God is "Adamantine?"

It simply means that God cannot be bent. God cannot change. God remains uniform and steadfast in what IT is and IT is absolutely unwavering. This is simply and absolutely incompatible with the notion of interventionist missions based on love. God is strict LAW, and as such the strict law of God will take course in every scenario, without exception and deliver immaculate divine justice to every being and every creature in accordance with the adamantine LAW of God.

Interestingly, the Grail Message uses this word repeatedly in describing God and ITs laws.

Definition of ADAMANTINE

ad·a·man·tine
adj
\ˌa-də-ˈman-ˌtēn, -ˌtīn, -ˈman-tən\

1: made of or having the quality of adamant
2: rigidly firm : unyielding <adamantine discipline>

Synonyms: adamant, hard, immovable, implacable, inconvincible, inflexible, unbending, uncompromising, unrelenting, unyielding.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/adamantine

"Verily verily I say unto you: whatever a man soweth, the same shall he reap" - That is an adamantine LAW of God: and it bepeaks no special need for any 'help' beyond that.

Justcool just think about the unimaginable number of realms and spheres of existence that must exist. What you are suggesting would mean that the transcendental God would keep descending into creation to rectify this or that condition of this or that set of sentient beings. To render help here, there and yonder. There is nothing transcendental about such a God. Such a God has descended into creation and that alone in terms of strict logic destroys his very transcendence.

I also repeat that a truly perfect creation will not require its maker to descend into it to give any help. I note all your examples concerning help, but i simply feel that they are not apt as in this case we are discussing an omniscient and pre-scient being. That makes all the difference in the world. Your father came to your school to give you addittional money because he was not omniscient or pre-scient. Such limitations of knowledge and circumstance cannot possibly affect an omniscient and pre-scient being.

I leave you with this poser -

1. Is God Transcendent?

2. Is it logically posiible to remain transcendent whilst descending into creation to participate therein?
Re: M_nwankwo/ Justcool - Inconsistencies In The Grail Message by DeepSight(m): 3:36pm On Apr 20, 2011
Just as a summary. The premises for the purpose of strict logic are as follows.

1. The Argument of God's transcendence. A Transcendental God logically does not begin to descend into creation. Transcendence itself contradicts such a notion of descent into creation, even if you are speaking about "parts" of God being severed and descending into creation. If God (or "severed parts of God" ) descend into creation, then this logically negates God's supposed transcendence.

2. The Argument of God's Adamantine Nature. An Adamantine God with Adamantine and perfect laws will allow those laws to address every scenario that may arise within creation. It is illogical to speak of an ADAMANTINE GOD with ADAMANTINE LAWS who then begins to enter into creation to give special help. That is not adamantine.

3. The Argument of God's Omniscience and Pre-Science. Every example about sending help which you have given, contemplates limited beings such as ourselves. An Omniscient being could not be found in such a situation as to create a world with adamantine laws to take care of the world, and yet still has to descend into the world to proffer help. Such a being is neither omniscient nor pre-scient in its creative acts.
Re: M_nwankwo/ Justcool - Inconsistencies In The Grail Message by justcool(m): 3:14am On Apr 21, 2011
@Deepsight

Thanks for your well thought-out reply; in some areas you are very logical, whilst in some areas you premises still do not add up. I will point them out to you as I go.  But not all that is logical is right. There are so many logical premises, but only one Truth. However the Truth cannot be wanting in logic either, only that sometimes in dealing with the Truth we encounter ideas that go beyond the realm of intellectual perception. The intellect has to separate things to survey them, while the spirit grasps things as whole.

When it comes to God and the Truth, one must go beyond his intellect. The individual must employ his spiritual perceptive ability, before he can grasp or know of God and His activities. The intellect stands silent before all that comes directly from God.

Love is a good example. You can never approach it, or comprehend it with the intellect. If you bring the Love of God into this equation, you will find the key to your puzzles.  But I will return to the issue of Love latter.

Let me exhaustively deal with the new issues that you raised.

Deep Sight:


Finally let me just say one more thing. You talked about the great love of God facilitating "extra help." Think about this carefully. Do you really believe this. What do we mean when we say that God is "Adamantine?"

It simply means that God cannot be bent. God cannot change. God remains uniform and steadfast in what IT is and IT is absolutely unwavering. This is simply and absolutely incompatible with the notion of interventionist missions based on love. God is strict LAW, and as such the strict law of God will take course in every scenario, without exception and deliver immaculate divine justice to every being and every creature in accordance with the adamantine LAW of God.

Interestingly, the Grail Message uses this word repeatedly in describing God and ITs laws.

Definition of ADAMANTINE

ad•a•man•tine
adj
\ˌa-də-ˈman-ˌtēn, -ˌtīn, -ˈman-tən\

1: made of or having the quality of adamant
2: rigidly firm : unyielding <adamantine discipline>

Synonyms: adamant, hard, immovable, implacable, inconvincible, inflexible, unbending, uncompromising, unrelenting, unyielding.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/adamantine

"Verily verily I say unto you: whatever a man soweth, the same shall he reap" - That is an adamantine LAW of God: and it bepeaks no special need for any 'help' beyond that.

Exactly! And even in the mission of Jesus, God and His Laws did not change. They remained adamant and unyielding. Keep in mind that Jesus did not annul any of the laws of God. Neither was Jesus a new law introduced in creation. The Laws that have existed in creation from time immemorial issued from God who is the living law Himself, and who Jesus was and remain a part of. Hence the laws issued from Jesus, and consequently, Jesus is the living law Himself. Hence the entrance of Jesus into creation is the entrance of the Living form of the Laws that already exist in creation.

You rightly believe that the laws of God in creation are able to deal with any situation. Without any outside help, hence the laws are perfect. Correct. Yet when these perfect laws take on a form and enter into creation you consider it an interference! Now you see where you are becoming illogical. The law is the law! Unyielding, unchangeable, and adamant. God is the Law Himself. His radiations give rise to creation and his radiations(the laws) which emanate from Him maintain creation. Either way you look at it these laws did not originate from within creation. It is in God Himself, and it effects or radiations enter creation continuously, maintaining it and keep order in it.

If you agree that the entrance or existence of God's laws, in creation is not an interference; creation depend on these laws to exist. And God continuously radiate it into creation. If you agree that the laws originate from God, and its effects is evidenced in creation; it enter creation. Then why do you consider it an interference the same law takes on form and enter creation.

Water is water whether it comes in the form of Solid(Ice), Liquid(Water), or gas(vapor). Sometimes due to some aliments, people are not able to chew solid form, and liquid food is giving to them. Is there any deviation in this? NO! Mankind prove lazy and incapable of absorbing or learning the Laws of God which operate in the mechanism of creation, out of love God sent them the same law in a living form.

It doesn’t matter what form of water with which you used to quench your thirst, whether ice, liquid water, or vapor. The fact remains that water quenched your thirst. By the same token, it doesn’t matter what form the laws of God took to rectify the situation. The fact remains that the laws of God rectified the situation. The situation was rectified completely within the laws of God.

This goes to prove that the laws are perfect; otherwise God wouldn’t have it as Jesus. If the laws are wanting, then it would have been changed or improved on. If in the mission of Jesus, the laws were changed, even in the slightest form then your premise would have made more sense. But the fact that God sent Jesus Who was the living law Himself is confirmation of the Truth that the laws are perfect.

The only imperfection is to be found in mankind and not in God who remained STEADFAST and ADAMANT. He didn’t even change His laws by a hairs breath.

I will summarize my premises here:

(1)You said: “. God is strict LAW, and as such the strict law of God will take course in every scenario” Very correct. I agree with you. From this we deduce that,
(2) This Law resides in God who is the Living law Himself. What manifests in creation as laws are due to the pressure created by the Power of the Law which resides within God. In other words all the laws of creation originated from God, from outside creation; yet they enter creation through the radiation of God.
(2) Jesus is the same law in a human form.

Conclusion: Hence, the entrance of Jesus into creation did not upset, or annul the existing order or law. It is the same laws that already operate in creation, that took on form as Jesus.

Perhaps an analogy may help.
I set up a household and promised to give my kids water every day. Every day I give my kids cold water, as much as they want. Let’s assume that my some develop tooth decay one day and hence could drink cold water any. Out of my love I started giving him warm water.

Have changed in any way? NO! I remained adamant in my promise of giving my family water. If I have given him wine instead of water then I could be accused of having changed. But as long I provide that which I promised, water, I have kept my promise. The fact that I gave him water of a different form only shows that I love him so much than that I will do whatever is allowed within pre-set rules to provide for him.

Deep Sight:


Justcool just think about the unimaginable number of realms and spheres of existence that must exist. What you are suggesting would mean that the transcendental God would keep descending into creation to rectify this or that condition of this or that set of sentient beings. To render help here, there and yonder. There is nothing transcendental about such a God. Such a God has descended into creation and that alone in terms of strict logic destroys his very transcendence.


Here you are making two mistakes (1) You assume that God visits creation. This is wrong. I have told you time without number that creation cannot carry God. Nothing could be more impossible! However God’ Holy Will(Imanuel) and Love(Jesus) work continuously in creation. Rendering help where ever help is needed, restoring order, and delivering justice where ever it’s needed.
(2) You are using “transcendence” where it doesn’t belong. The fact that God is transcendent does not help you case. Transcendence means that which can transcend(go above the ordinary). The fact that the Love and Justice(Holly Will of God) can take on form and work within creation does not go against transcendence. Actually it goes to show that God is transcendent.


Deep Sight:

I also repeat that a truly perfect creation will not require its maker to descend into it to give any help.

Nobody ever said that subsequent creation is perfect and self-sustaining. Subsequent creation is not even a direct work of God. However the laws that operate in all parts of creation, including subsequent creation, are perfect. The direct work of God is Primordial creation; there is nothing wanting there, no imperfection. However, even this Primordial creation is not self-sustaining. A piece of work does not have to self-sustaining to be a perfect piece of work. Only God is self-sustaining.

Humans in subsequent creation, also, is not a direct work of God; hence man in subsequent creation is imperfect.


Deep Sight:

I note all your examples concerning help, but i simply feel that they are not apt as in this case we are discussing an omniscient and pre-scient being. That makes all the difference in the world. Your father came to your school to give you addittional money because he was not omniscient or pre-scient. Such limitations of knowledge and circumstance cannot possibly affect an omniscient and pre-scient being.

God is omniscient. But mankind, owing to the spiritual nature, poses free-will. Free-will implies that they make their decision. God knows all, but God does know a decision that has not been made. God does not know what mankind will decide on, He knows their inclinations’, but the decision remains solely mankind’s. Yet whatever decision man takes, will take its course within the laws of creation. Hence God know where every road leads; but it’s up to the creature to decide on what road to take.

At the time the spirit germs where descending into creation, God did not know that mankind would drive subsequent creation to a premature dissolution. Just as my father did not know that I will exhaust my money at the middle of the semester. However God knows, from the very beginning, every possible mistake that mankind can make; and hence his laws are good enough to deal with any situation that may arise.

Omniscience of God lies in His laws, in His ability to know the outcome of every decision, and His ability to rectify any disturbance or disharmony that may ever arise.

You don’t believe in a personal God, yet when it comes to omniscience you expect God to be personal. You expect Him to know beforehand the decision that every creature would make, even though you ascribe free-will to these creatures. Do you see how inconsistent you are here? Apart from the fact that this is inconsistent with “free-will,” it is also expecting or asking God to be personal.


Deep Sight:

I leave you with this poser -

1. Is God Transcendent?

Yes.

Deep Sight:

2. Is it logically posiible to remain transcendent whilst descending into creation to participate therein?


God does not descend into creation.


Thanks and remain blessed.
Re: M_nwankwo/ Justcool - Inconsistencies In The Grail Message by justcool(m): 4:39am On Apr 21, 2011
Deep Sight:

Just as a summary. The premises for the purpose of strict logic are as follows.

You will find my answer to all your premises in my last post; I will quickly repeat them here; and expend my answer to your premise #1. I can see that your premise #1 requires a little explanation on trinity.


Deep Sight:

1. The Argument of God's transcendence. A Transcendental God logically does not begin to descend into creation. Transcendence itself contradicts such a notion of descent into creation, even if you are speaking about "parts" of God being severed and descending into creation. If God (or "severed parts of God"wink descend into creation, then this logically negates God's supposed transcendence.

Perhaps you should define what you mean by “Transcendental.” Here is the Mariam dictionary definition:

1
a : exceeding usual limits : SURPASSING b : extending or lying beyond the limits of ordinary experience c in Kantian philosophy : being beyond the limits of all possible experience and knowledge
2
: being beyond comprehension
3
: transcending the universe or material existence — compare IMMANENT 2
4
: universally applicable or significant <the antislavery movement … recognized the transcendent importance of liberty — L. H. Tribe>
http://mw4.m-w.com/dictionary/transcendent

None of the definitions above contradict the notion of descent into creation. On the contrary a descent into creation would actually suggest transcendence, because that would out of the ordinary.

However God does not descend into creation.

Concerning Jesus and Imanuel, “Severance” is just a word that we use to convey something that human words cannot convey. You must approach trinity with your intuition; otherwise it will remain a perpetual mystery to you. Leave the wrappings or cloak alone; words are only cloaks or packages that carry an idea. Hence you must not hold on to that word “severance” when it comes to trinity.

Jesus and Imanuel never severed from God as such, they remained one with God; God is one and will forever remain one. He is a whole that cannot be divided. Consider, God has no form, He is not made up of any substance, He is Divinity unsubstantiate. For something to be divided into parts or a part of it severed, that thing has to have a form made of substance. And since God has no form, and since He is unsubstantiated, He is indivisible.

While Jesus was on earth, Jesus was also in the Divine unsubstantially with God as part of God. While the Son of man was on earth, Parsifal was also in the Grail castle at the summit of creation, while Imanuel was in the Grail Castle at the Divine substantial plane, and also in the Divine unsubstantiality with God as part of God.

You already know from the Grail Message that Parsifal came from Imanuel; Parsifal is the primordial spiritual cloak of Imanuel. Yet Imanuel never didn’t step beyond the boundary of Divine substantiate plane into creation. Parsifal is a volition of Imanuel, who in turn is a volition of God.

Jesus and Imanuel are like volitions of God. But this is not like human volitions; it’s not the same way that we humans have volitions. Our relationship with our volitions is not the same with the relationship between God and His two sons.

Our Volitions only carry animistic substance within their core, as their animating core; they do not carry any part of our spirit. Otherwise in time we will dissolve as we make many volitions daily.

The volition of God carries Divine unsubstantiality as its animating core. This is the difference between our volitions and God’s volitions. A Divine being and his volition can function as one, tied together by an unbreakable chain or cord of radiation; it’s like being two different places at the same time. This is an ability that the human spirit does not possess and hence may never fully grasp. An Intellectual grasping of it is totally out of the question.

Jesus is the volition that God made out of Love to save mankind, a volition of the Love of God; while Imanuel is the volition that God made out of His creative ability.

The Love and Creative ability of God remain in God as one. God is One.

Deep Sight:

2. The Argument of God's Adamantine Nature. An Adamantine God with Adamantine and perfect laws will allow those laws to address every scenario that may arise within creation. It is illogical to speak of an ADAMANTINE GOD with ADAMANTINE LAWS who then begins to enter into creation to give special help. That is not adamantine.

In the incarnation of Jesus there was no deviation from the law. Neither was another law or different laws introduced. It was within the same laws that existed from time immemorial that the mission of Jesus was accomplished. And Jesus is the Living Law Himself in a human form; so there is no question of employing the help of an outside law. The help can from the law, from Jesus who was and will forever remain the Living word or the Living law. Both God and His laws remained ADAMANTE.

Deep Sight:

3. The Argument of God's Omniscience and Pre-Science. Every example about sending help which you have given, contemplates limited beings such as ourselves. An Omniscient being could not be found in such a situation as to create a world with adamantine laws to take care of the world, and yet still has to descend into the world to proffer help. Such a being is neither omniscient nor pre-scient in its creative acts.

Same as above. He created adamantine laws to take care of the world; and when the world was in trouble, He employed the same laws to rectify the situation. I repeat Jesus is the law of God in a human form. The laws which effect is felt in creation originated partly from Jesus.

This is the difference between the sons of God(Jesus and Imanuel) and mare prophets or called ones. The Prophets are sent to teach mankind the laws of God; while the sons of God(Jesus and Imanuel) are the laws themselves in human forms.

As always thanks and remain blessed.

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