tintingz:
Point of correction, atheists don't blame God for evil, it's silly to blame an imaginary entity.

The argument which is "the problem of evil" is pointing out the absurdity and paradox of God being all-good, all-knowing and all-powerful.

The evil I'm talking about is the evil Allah hate in the Qur'an, if he hates it how come he allow it to exist when he has all the power to stop it?

The evil Allah hates is our disobedience to Him by the choices we make.

For example,you have a very loving son and you gave him so certain rules to abide by, but he deliberately breaks some of these rules,then it stand to reason it that you dislike or hate(as you say) the breaking of the rules which we religiously call evil.

But no where in the Qur'aan diers Allah says he hates people .He only says He does not like certain disobedient people and disobedient acts.

I think you are the one who says Allah hates whereas He says He does not like.

Evil exist from what He as allowed from His creation not that he wants people to be evil, but the choices we make are evil that is, we break His rules.

Khaleell001:


The evil Allah hates is our disobedience to Him by the choices we make.

For example,you have a very loving son and you gave him so certain rules to abide by, but he deliberately breaks some of these rules,then it stand to reason it that you dislike or hate(as you say) the breaking of the rules which we religiously call evil.

But no where in the Qur'aan diers Allah says he hates people .He only says He does not like certain disobedient people and disobedient acts.

I think you are the one who says Allah hates whereas He says He does not like.

Evil exist from what He as allowed from His creation not that he wants people to be evil, but the choices we make are evil that is, we break His rules.

If Allah is all-good, all-merciful, all-knowing and all-powerful such thing as evil he hates that will result to eternal punishment should never exist.

If I'm a merciful father, a creator that "can see the future and can change anything", I will not allow anything that will make my son be cruelly punished exist. That's the definition of being all-good and merciful.

tintingz:
If Allah is all-good, all-merciful, all-knowing and all-powerful such thing as evil he hates that will result to eternal punishment should never exist.

If I'm a merciful father, a creator that "can see the future and can change anything", I will not allow anything that will make my son be cruelly punished exist. That's the definition of being all-good and merciful.

You are now projecting your logic into all this.

Is like saying if I know my students would fail a test I should not make them sit for any test:because knowing they would fail and I still go ahead to test them ,means I am sadist and not "merciful. "

Even when you were pursuing your Bsc, you know how difficult it is to pass some courses especially sciences courses, but you still went ahead to enroll in the school and do them isn't it?

That is why out of God's mercy in Islām He forgives and forgives,that is, he cancels out your bad actions when your show you have repented.
It is somewhat similar to re-sitting for a carry over course in your exam,but in God's sight repentance is limitless.
In Islām, there is always room to right your wrongs, but the door only becomes shut when you insist on doing what you feel is right out of your free will;like you are doing now.

God's mercy is beyond how humans calculation.
You can't and you will never understand how this vastness of His mercy work,if you keep apply kinky logic without perception.

Khaleell001:


You are now projecting your logic into all this.

Is like saying if I know my students would fail a test I should not make them sit for any test:because knowing they would fail and I still go ahead to test them ,means I am sadist and not "merciful. "

Even when you were pursuing your Bsc, you know how difficult it is to pass some courses especially sciences courses, but you still went ahead to enroll in the school and do them isn't it?

That is why out of God's mercy in Islām He forgives and forgives,that is, he cancels out your bad actions when your show you have repented.
It is somewhat similar to re-sitting for a carry over course in your exam,but in God's sight repentance is limitless.
In Islām, there is always room to right your wrongs, but the door only becomes shut when you insist on doing what you feel is right out of your free will;like you are doing now.

God's mercy is beyond how humans calculation.
You can't and you will never understand how this vastness of His mercy work,if you keep apply kinky logic without perception.

Using analogy of a human to an omnipotent deity is nonsensical.

A teacher test his students because he doesn't know their future, he doesn't know their results, he's imperfect, the way to know that is through test or exam.

But God is omnipotent and omniscient and even the planner, he knows the future even long before creation, he knows exactly what will happen, he's perfect, so what then is the use of test when he already know the outcome?

It's like knowing beforehand your student will fail 100% and will be punished cruelly, testing is meaningless here infact it has no use again because you already know the destiny of the student(freewill has become illusion here), what you should do is to do whatever that's necessary not to allow the student to fail since the punishment will be brutal or better still there shouldn't be brutal punishment in the first place. Now that's a merciful and good teacher.

Now the question about destiny is, if God can 100% perfectly know someone's life from beginning to end long before he was created, who planned the script and destiny even when the person never exist?

tintingz:
Using analogy of a human to an omnipotent deity is nonsensical.

A teacher test his students because he doesn't know their future, he doesn't know their results, he's imperfect, the way to know that is through test or exam.

But God is omnipotent and omniscient and even the planner, he knows the future even long before creation, he knows exactly what will happen, he's perfect, so what then is the use of test when you already know the outcome?

It's like knowing beforehand your student will fail 100% and will be punished cruelly, testing is meaningless here infact it has no use again because you already know the destiny of the student(freewill has become illusion here), what you should do is to do whatever that's necessary not to allow the student to fail since the punishment will be brutal or better still there shouldn't be brutal punishment in the first place. Now that's a merciful and good teacher.

Now the question about destiny is, if God can 100% perfectly know someone's life from beginning to end long before he was created, who planned the script and destiny even when the person never exist?

Using human logic is what is some what close to what we can relate


If God said he knows the outcome of something does not mean he will force you to follow that outcome.

Another analogy that can be of benefit here is, if I know a particular student who is not serious:he does not read, does not do his assignment and he's a traunt and If I know he will fail due to his negligence that is speaking from what I know he would do and has been doing not that I will make him fail hence his actions and reasoning are enough to tell me what he will do.

For this reason God alone knows those who will follow His and those who will not from His forehead knowledge.

The thing you are getting wrong is, mistaking Knowledge for compulsion.

If He knows about a thing is different from forcing one to do that thing which He knows.

Words like "script," "planned" are the closes words we can use to tell or explain God's all transversing abilities.

Like I said, you are just projecting your own Idea of what God should be like.

If we were allowed to do such, I guess many of us would choose "God" that punish immediately, some may Choose "God" that allows gay marriage,others may choose "God" that act they way they want.

Almighty God does what He wills in accordance with His wisdom and Mercy not even you or me can change that.

Khaleell001:



Using human logic is what is some what close to what we can relate

Using human analogy for God's omnipotence attributes does not follow.

If God said he knows the outcome of something does not mean he will force you to follow that outcome.

If the outcome of someone is known then testing is meaningless, wether God test someone or not the destiny is already known by God, the person cannot escape it, it's fixed. The question now is who destined the person's life?

Another analogy that can be of benefit here is, if I know a particular student who is not serious:he does not read, does not do his assignment and he's a traunt and If I know he will fail due to his negligence that is speaking from what I know he would do and has been doing not that I will make him fail hence his actions and reasoning are enough to tell me what he will do.

This analogy is like studying the student, the teacher must be learning and curious, God does not study his creation, he knows the end of his creation long before he created them except if otherwise.

For this reason God alone knows those who will follow His and those who will not from His forehead knowledge.

Does God know your end before you were born?

The thing you are getting wrong is, mistaking Knowledge for compulsion.

If He knows about a thing is different from forcing one to do that thing which He knows.

Words like "script," "planned" are the closes words we can use to tell or explain God's all transversing abilities.

Like I said, you are just projecting your own Idea of what God should be like.

No, I'm not projecting anything, I'm arguing with the information theists presented about their God attributes.

If we were allowed to do such, I guess many of us would choose "God" that punish immediately, some may Choose "God" that allows gay marriage,others may choose "God" that act they way they want.

Almighty God does what He wills in accordance with His wisdom and Mercy not even you or me can change that.

The arguments is about the problem of evil, that's it.

Masha Allah, A puzzle I have been strugling with for six years has been solved. Jazakallahu Khayran Al-Baqir.

tintingz:
Using human analogy for God's omnipotence attributes does not follow.


If the outcome of someone is known then testing is meaningless, wether God test someone or not the destiny is already known by God, the person cannot escape it, it's fixed. The question now is who destined the person's life?

This analogy is like studying the student, the teacher must be learning and curious, God does not study his creation, he knows the end of his creation long before he created them except if otherwise.

Does God know your end before you were born?

No, I'm not projecting anything, I'm arguing with the information theists presented about their God attributes.



The arguments is about the problem of evil, that's it.

Your argument is neither here nor there .

Then we should dump any kind of analogy since they are coming from humans isn't it?
since according to you we shouldn't use human analogy?
Do analogies create themselves?
They come from what you as a human think, analyse and observe.

Knowing that something will happen does not mean you are forcing it.

Just look at what you are saying that when God knows something about someone then the destiny has been fixed.
Who says this?
You!

How do you know what God knows?
Where you privy to any information that says so and so person will end up in so and so place?

You are just speaking without any evidence about God's knowledge?

Even if God says He knows about a person's life.
Does it translate that you and I know anything about that person in future ?

You can only speak with such sureness if you know what God knows.
And you can only say you know what God knows when He has informed you of such information.
But He only gave a open end statement that He is the creator of everything, but did not order evil.

For example, there are things I know that you do not know except I reveal them to you.
It would be turning logic on its head if you say you know what I know even if I have not disclosed what I say I know to you.

And this is clearly what you are claiming about God; that He knows and created "evil" does not mean we know what he ordered and why He ordered it.

You are only using logic that suits your line of thinking.

Whatever He says,He alone knows why He does them.

What you are getting wrong is, you are still projecting your ideas about what God is and what He is not.


God's knowledge is so vast that your small brain is yet to understand even the tinniest element if this world yet you want to know why He does what He does.

Know that I am not responsible for what you believe and what you think.

Khaleell001:


Your argument is neither here nor there .

Then we should dump any kind of analogy since they are coming from humans isn't it?
since according to you we shouldn't use human analogy?
Do analogies create themselves?
They come from what you as a human think, analyse and observe.

Read to understand.

I didn't say you shouldn't use analogy, I'm saying using human as analogy to make example of God's omnipotence does not follow. Humans don't have supernatural powers like God how then does this fit in? You can use other human analogy for God but not for his omnipotence attributes.

Knowing that something will happen does not mean you are forcing it.

Just look at what you are saying that when God knows something about someone then the destiny has been fixed.
Who says this?
You!

Knowing someone's future will make freewill an illusion, imagine knowing all my future and writing it down in a book, I picked up the book and I found that I'm following exactly what's written in that book, I follow every single damn thing written in the book, I'm bound to the book, do I still have freewill here? Now God who's the creator has seen the future of everyone till the end he has written it down in the book of destiny, now imagine you get hold of the book of destiny, are you in control of yourself or what God has destined for you?

Before you were created God has seen your future, your decisions, now how come God already know your decisions when you're not even created to make any decisions, who made that?

If you say God didn't know, then God is not all-knowing.

Now take your time to understand this.

How do you know what God knows?
Where you privy to any information that says so and so person will end up in so and so place?

You are just speaking without any evidence about God's knowledge?

The Quran said Allah is all-knowing which means he knows every single damn thing.

I don't need to know someone will end up in so and so place, an external agent like God knows.

Even if God says He knows about a person's life.
Does it translate that you and I know anything about that person in future ?

As response above.

You can only speak with such sureness if you know what God knows.
And you can only say you know what God knows when He has informed you of such information.
But He only gave a open end statement that He is the creator of everything, but did not order evil.

For example, there are things I know that you do not know except I reveal them to you.
It would be turning logic on its head if you say you know what I know even if I have not disclosed what I say I know to you.

And this is clearly what you are claiming about God; that He knows and created "evil" does not mean we know what he ordered and why He ordered it.

You are only using logic that suits your line of thinking.

Whatever He says,He alone knows why He does them.

What you are getting wrong is, you are still projecting your ideas about what God is and what He is not.

Are you now saying God is not all-knowing?

Again, we don't need to know people's future, the Quran said God is all-knowing and has written down everyone's destiny in a book, if your life has been written in a book, are you acting independently or according to what is written down by Allah? If your life is known by Allah long before creation, then an external agent has already destined your life, again are you acting independently or what has already been destined for you?

Evil did not exist on it own, God is the creator of all, whatever exist comes from the single source the creator God!

It's like a chain of existence that leads back to a single source.

But if you said evil is independent then we can agree God is not the creator of all, someone powerful created evil that God himself is in hard time to put end to it.

God's knowledge is so vast that your small brain is yet to understand even the tinniest element if this world yet you want to know why He does what He does.

Know that I am not responsible for what you believe and what you think.

I cannot worship and believe a God I cannot understand and make meaningful things out of his actions.

I mean what's the difference between a tyrant leader actions and God actions. They both do whatever they wishes.

tintingz:
Read to understand.

Knowing someone's future will make freewill an illusion, imagine knowing all my future and writing it down in a book, I picked up the book and I found that I'm following exactly what's written in that book, I follow every single damn thing written in the book, I'm bound to the book, do I still have freewill here? Now God who's the creator has seen the future of everyone till the end he has written it down in the book of destiny, now imagine you get hold of the book of destiny, are you in control of yourself or what God has destined for you?

I think you need the bold part most. You just type replies to argue your head out and not ready to accept anything given to you. Moreover, you said the other time on a thread that you don't have to accept answers and will keep arguing your head out like a mountain goat.

That apart, on this same topic, Sino has schooled you times without numbers but you are still using this same silly and watery argument. I swear this argument doesn't follow at all.

Sino asked you,
1) Do you know what's written down for you by God?! Answer simple YES or NO.

Then how does your silly argument of a person writing your future plans in a book and giving the book to you and you follow every godamn thing written down in the book goes with what God has written?! Did God give you your book of destiny and you now have the privilege of following what God has written down? Do you have a peep into it?! Allah says (I don't care if you don't believe)
Surah Maryam, Verse 77-78:
أَفَرَأَيْتَ الَّذِي كَفَرَ بِآيَاتِنَا وَقَالَ لَأُوتَيَنَّ مَالًا وَوَلَدًا
أَطَّلَعَ الْغَيْبَ أَمِ اتَّخَذَ عِندَ الرَّحْمَٰنِ عَهْدًا
Have you seen him who disbelieved in Our Ayat and (yet) says: "I shall certainly be given wealth and children [if I will be alive (again)]," Has he known the unseen or has he taken a covenant from the Most Beneficent (Allah)? Do you know the unseen? Destiny isn't known, then how the hell is your crooked argument relevant? It makes zero sense.

2) Secondly, Sino asked "Are you forced to make your own choices? " KNOWING (OR WRITING SOMETHING DOWN IN A BOOK) is different from ENFORCING or something to be BINDED on someone.

Do you think someone is enforcing you to make your choices?! Do you feel the influence of a force (physically, mentally or any force) when taking decisions? All the rubbish you have bee typing on NL about religion and God, do you think someone forced you to type it? Aren't you sane and conscious when typing it? If you were to be called to a court of law as regards to everything you have typed on NL, would you say that you were under the influence of alcohol or insane or a mod pointed a gun to your head?! Just answer those questions sincerely and ask yourself if your silly argument tallies with it.


Lemme cite a scenario. During my undergraduate years, my project supervisor is fond of writing his project students' scores before the commencement of the projects (UNKNOWN to the students). How did he do this? He gives his students a test (not written) on the first day of encounter with them and observed their reactions towards the test.

Afterwards, he gives us the SAME fatherly advice, care, tutelage, guidance as regards to the success of our projects. He calls us for updates almost every week. While some of us (three out of five) followed strictly his instructions and did the projects assiduously, the remaining two guys weren't that serious with it. They toyed with their projects and didn't follow what Oga told us.

Long story cut short, at the end of the external defence by the EXTERNAL supervisor, three of us had As while two had Cs. Our supervisor wasn't even around during our presentation. When we met, he asked us the grades the external supervisor gave us and we told him. Then he showed us where he had written our scores and they TALLIED with what the external supervisor gave us. He has been doing this year in year out for his students and he said that he had recorded almost 90%.

Now bottomline is that, those two guys who had Cs, can they say that "We had Cs because our supervisor had written Cs for us"?! No, they can't. Why ??
1) They aren't aware of what was written. (DESTINY)
2) Supervisor gave everyone equal care and support towards the projects. (GOD'S CARE AND GUIDANCE)
3) They are fully responsible for what they got cos the scores weren't enforced on them. They worked for it and it was the consequences of their actions. (FREEWILL)

Note that the analogy isn't perfect. The supervisor wrote down the scores of the project through a singular test he had with us and he is not perfect. God, on the other hand, He is the creator and He knows man before he was even born. He knows when you were born, and when you are gonna die. He knows your actions, His knowing doesn't mean He is enforcing it on you cos you don't even know what He knows and what's written down with him. So how does that contradicts your freedom to choose??!! Think man and be SINCERE with yourself.


But I doubt if you would do that cos if you do, your foundation of atheism would crumble and turn into dust.



NB: I am not here for a back and forth argument with you, just bewildered by your insincerity and using the same rubbish argument on almost every thread. Brother Khaleell001, Ramadan is approaching. May Allah make us witness this blessed month. Please use your time for valuable things than arguing with a blind, insincere, confused man parading himself as an atheist. It's a waste of time, resources and energy. Trust me akhee, I have been there. Channel your time to better things.

Peace

I will try and make this easy and straightforward, it seems logic is a problem to you guys.

lanrexlan:
I think you need the bold part most. You just type replies to argue your head out and not ready to accept anything given to you. Moreover, you said the other time on a thread that you don't have to accept answers and will keep arguing your head out like a mountain goat.

Don't get me wrong and don't say what I didn't say. Understand what an argument or debate is, when a premise has flaws then further questions are valid till it reach a conclusion or not, I don't have to agree to every premise you propose(it's an argument for goodness sake) except when I find the argument reasonable then I will agree. E.g I agree with Albaqir Evil makes life meaningful.

To understand something is different from accepting.

That apart, on this same topic, Sino has schooled you times without numbers but you are still using this same silly and watery argument. I swear this argument doesn't follow at all.

I think you're strawmaning here.

Sino asked you,
1) Do you know what's written down for you by God?! Answer simple YES or NO.

The question should be am I acting on what is already written down? Yes or No?

I don't have to know what's written down because it doesn't change the fact that my life has already been written down in a book and I can't act outside it, I'm bound to it.

Then how does your silly argument of a person writing your future plans in a book and giving the book to you and you follow every godamn thing written down in the book goes with what God has written?! Did God give you your book of destiny and you now have the privilege of following what God has written down? Do you have a peep into it?! Allah says (I don't care if you don't believe)
Surah Maryam, Verse 77-78:
أَفَرَأَيْتَ الَّذِي كَفَرَ بِآيَاتِنَا وَقَالَ لَأُوتَيَنَّ مَالًا وَوَلَدًا
أَطَّلَعَ الْغَيْبَ أَمِ اتَّخَذَ عِندَ الرَّحْمَٰنِ عَهْدًا
Have you seen him who disbelieved in Our Ayat and (yet) says: "I shall certainly be given wealth and children [if I will be alive (again)]," Has he known the unseen or has he taken a covenant from the Most Beneficent (Allah)? Do you know the unseen? Destiny isn't known, then how the hell is your crooked argument relevant? It makes zero sense.

Ok, let me make it easy for you.

Long before I was created, God has written my whole life down in a book, note that I was not created, now the question is, if I'm non-existence when Allah wrote my destiny down, I don't even have any idea if I will be a good or a bad person, how come Allah has already determine my life when I'm non-existence? Did I determine my life here or Allah did?

Again don't forget, I'm non-existence when Allah wrote my destiny down.

2) Secondly, Sino asked "Are you forced to make your own choices? " KNOWING (OR WRITING SOMETHING DOWN IN A BOOK) is different from ENFORCING or something to be BINDED on someone.

- If there's a book that exist somewhere that has already destined my whole life, am I acting on what that book has destined or not?

- If God can tell my end or see my end, can I escape what has been known or destined?

- If I'm acting independently then on what relevant is that book of destiny and God omniscient?

This is a supernatural and philosophical argument that involves an omnipotent deity or an external agent.

Do you think someone is enforcing you to make your choices?! Do you feel the influence of a force (physically, mentally or any force) when taking decisions? All the rubbish you have bee typing on NL about religion and God, do you think someone forced you to type it? Aren't you sane and conscious when typing it? If you were to be called to a court of law as regards to everything you have typed on NL, would you say that you were under the influence of alcohol or insane or a mod pointed a gun to your head?! Just answer those questions sincerely and ask yourself if your silly argument tallies with it.

Lol, I don't believe in God or destiny tho but to answer your question just to point out your absurdity.

One does not have to feel forced or be forced, there's a "supernatural book" that contains your whole life till the end, that book is a program of your life, you can't act outside that supernatural book.

Destiny

- the events that will necessarily happen to a particular person or thing in the future.

- the hidden power believed to control future events; fate. Source

I have given the definition of destiny to you, maybe you will now understand my premise.

Lemme cite a scenario. During my undergraduate years, my project supervisor is fond of writing his project students' scores before the commencement of the projects (UNKNOWN to the students). How did he do this? He gives his students a test (not written) on the first day of encounter with them and observed their reactions towards the test.

Lol, the project supervisor has already destined their grade before the commencement of the project. What if the unserious students changed and they did well, how will the project supervisor correct that? Will he go back and edit their grade and accept he made a mistake or force them to accept it?

If God test, does it mean he's not sure of their outcome?

This here is a flawed.

Afterwards, he gives us the SAME fatherly advice, care, tutelage, guidance as regards to the success of our projects. He calls us for updates almost every week. While some of us (three out of five) followed strictly his instructions and did the projects assiduously, the remaining two guys weren't that serious with it. They toyed with their projects and didn't follow what Oga told us.

Long story cut short, at the end of the external defence by the EXTERNAL supervisor, three of us had As while two had Cs. Our supervisor wasn't even around during our presentation. When we met, he asked us the grades the external supervisor gave us and we told him. Then he showed us where he had written our scores and they TALLIED with what the external supervisor gave us. He has been doing this year in year out for his students and he said that he had recorded almost 90%.

Now bottomline is that, those two guys who had Cs, can they say that "We had Cs because our supervisor had written Cs for us"?! No, they can't. Why ??
1) They aren't aware of what was written. (DESTINY)
2) Supervisor gave everyone equal care and support towards the projects. (GOD'S CARE AND GUIDANCE)
3) They are fully responsible for what they got cos the scores weren't enforced on them. They worked for it and it was the consequences of their actions. (FREEWILL)

Note that the analogy isn't perfect. The supervisor wrote down the scores of the project through a singular test he had with us and he is not perfect. God, on the other hand, He is the creator and He knows man before he was even born. He knows when you were born, and when you are gonna die. He knows your actions, His knowing doesn't mean He is enforcing it on you cos you don't even know what He knows and what's written down with him. So how does that contradicts your freedom to choose??!! Think man and be SINCERE with yourself.


But I doubt if you would do that cos if you do, your foundation of atheism would crumble and turn into dust.

A project supervisor cannot accurately predict his students outcome even to 10%, the reason test and interviews are done. It's unprofessional to grade students before the commencement of an exam or project. Nowhere it's done.

The reason tests are conducted is because the school is not perfect to know 100% outcome of each students, the only way to be sure of the outcome of each students is through exams!

If this analogy apply God, then God is not all-knowing and perfect, why should God test his creation if he's 100% sure of their end? Why should he wait for an act to be done before he's sure of their outcome? God must be evolving in knowledge, learning and curious.

You guys should stop confusing determinism with destiny.

NB: I am not here for a back and forth argument with you, just bewildered by your insincerity and using the same rubbish argument on almost every thread. Brother Khaleell001, Ramadan is approaching. May Allah make us witness this blessed month. Please use your time for valuable things than arguing with a blind, insincere, confused man parading himself as an atheist. It's a waste of time, resources and energy. Trust me akhee, I have been there. Channel your time to better things.

Peace

I will be interested in your response.

lanrexlan:
I think you need the bold part most. You just type replies to argue your head out and not ready to accept anything given to you. Moreover, you said the other time on a thread that you don't have to accept answers and will keep arguing your head out like a mountain goat.

That apart, on this same topic, Sino has schooled you times without numbers but you are still using this same silly and watery argument. I swear this argument doesn't follow at all.

Sino asked you,
1) Do you know what's written down for you by God?! Answer simple YES or NO.

Then how does your silly argument of a person writing your future plans in a book and giving the book to you and you follow every godamn thing written down in the book goes with what God has written?! Did God give you your book of destiny and you now have the privilege of following what God has written down? Do you have a peep into it?! Allah says (I don't care if you don't believe)
Surah Maryam, Verse 77-78:
أَفَرَأَيْتَ الَّذِي كَفَرَ بِآيَاتِنَا وَقَالَ لَأُوتَيَنَّ مَالًا وَوَلَدًا
أَطَّلَعَ الْغَيْبَ أَمِ اتَّخَذَ عِندَ الرَّحْمَٰنِ عَهْدًا
Have you seen him who disbelieved in Our Ayat and (yet) says: "I shall certainly be given wealth and children [if I will be alive (again)]," Has he known the unseen or has he taken a covenant from the Most Beneficent (Allah)? Do you know the unseen? Destiny isn't known, then how the hell is your crooked argument relevant? It makes zero sense.

2) Secondly, Sino asked "Are you forced to make your own choices? " KNOWING (OR WRITING SOMETHING DOWN IN A BOOK) is different from ENFORCING or something to be BINDED on someone.

Do you think someone is enforcing you to make your choices?! Do you feel the influence of a force (physically, mentally or any force) when taking decisions? All the rubbish you have bee typing on NL about religion and God, do you think someone forced you to type it? Aren't you sane and conscious when typing it? If you were to be called to a court of law as regards to everything you have typed on NL, would you say that you were under the influence of alcohol or insane or a mod pointed a gun to your head?! Just answer those questions sincerely and ask yourself if your silly argument tallies with it.


Lemme cite a scenario. During my undergraduate years, my project supervisor is fond of writing his project students' scores before the commencement of the projects (UNKNOWN to the students). How did he do this? He gives his students a test (not written) on the first day of encounter with them and observed their reactions towards the test.

Afterwards, he gives us the SAME fatherly advice, care, tutelage, guidance as regards to the success of our projects. He calls us for updates almost every week. While some of us (three out of five) followed strictly his instructions and did the projects assiduously, the remaining two guys weren't that serious with it. They toyed with their projects and didn't follow what Oga told us.

Long story cut short, at the end of the external defence by the EXTERNAL supervisor, three of us had As while two had Cs. Our supervisor wasn't even around during our presentation. When we met, he asked us the grades the external supervisor gave us and we told him. Then he showed us where he had written our scores and they TALLIED with what the external supervisor gave us. He has been doing this year in year out for his students and he said that he had recorded almost 90%.

Now bottomline is that, those two guys who had Cs, can they say that "We had Cs because our supervisor had written Cs for us"?! No, they can't. Why ??
1) They aren't aware of what was written. (DESTINY)
2) Supervisor gave everyone equal care and support towards the projects. (GOD'S CARE AND GUIDANCE)
3) They are fully responsible for what they got cos the scores weren't enforced on them. They worked for it and it was the consequences of their actions. (FREEWILL)

Note that the analogy isn't perfect. The supervisor wrote down the scores of the project through a singular test he had with us and he is not perfect. God, on the other hand, He is the creator and He knows man before he was even born. He knows when you were born, and when you are gonna die. He knows your actions, His knowing doesn't mean He is enforcing it on you cos you don't even know what He knows and what's written down with him. So how does that contradicts your freedom to choose??!! Think man and be SINCERE with yourself.


But I doubt if you would do that cos if you do, your foundation of atheism would crumble and turn into dust.



NB: I am not here for a back and forth argument with you, just bewildered by your insincerity and using the same rubbish argument on almost every thread. Brother Khaleell001, Ramadan is approaching. May Allah make us witness this blessed month. Please use your time for valuable things than arguing with a blind, insincere, confused man parading himself as an atheist. It's a waste of time, resources and energy. Trust me akhee, I have been there. Channel your time to better things.

Peace

BaarakaLlahu feek my brother.

The guy is just turning logic on its head and projecting his ideas on us about who God is and what He shouldn't be.
Well, I heard you.


May Allah make this Ramadan a blessed month for us all.