Aadoiza, Empiree:
Imagine this:
A magician turns a white bird into red.
You say you see a red bird.
The magician says: No. I only made it appear red to you; it is actually white.
And then he turns round to claim that you are a fool for believing that what you saw as red you said it was red.

That is the logic of Allah in this portion of the Koran.

If Allah deceived people into believing that it was not Jesus that was crucified we can deduce 2 things from here:
1. Someone was crucified in the place of Jesus. In other words, there was a SUBSTITUTIONARY death for Jesus, according to the koran. An innocent person since it was Jesus they wanted to kill? Yes or No? Yes!
2.The people who were deceived SAW what Allah made them SEE. So, they are saying exactly what they saw. They were witnessing to what they saw. Yes or No? Yes!

So, if Allah made Jews and Christians walk in his DECEPTION for hundreds of years until Mohamed came and still made them victims of his own deception what kind of god are we talking about here?
Does this make any moral sense?
Here you are trying to defend the indefensible.

sagenaija:
Aadoiza, Empiree:
Imagine this:
A magician turns a white bird into red.
You say you see a red bird.
The magician says: No. I only made it appear red to you; it is actually white.
And then he turns round to claim that you are a fool for believing that what you saw as red you said it was red.

That is the logic of Allah in this portion of the Koran.

If Allah deceived people into believing that it was not Jesus that was crucified we can deduce 2 things from here:
1. Someone was crucified in the place of Jesus. In other words, there was a SUBSTITUTIONARY death for Jesus, according to the koran. An innocent person since it was Jesus they wanted to kill? Yes or No? Yes!
2.The people who were deceived SAW what Allah made them SEE. So, they are saying exactly what they saw. They were witnessing to what they saw. Yes or No? Yes!

So, if Allah made Jews and Christians walk in his DECEPTION for hundreds of years until Mohamed came and still made them victims of his own deception what kind of god are we talking about here?
Does this make any moral sense?
Here you are trying to defend the indefensible.

Your case is now officially dismissed for comparing God to magician. This is higher level of your thinking faculty?. I rest my case. It is clear you don't really believe in God or my God's magnificent power.

Don't mention me again. This is very ridiculous!


To answer last part of your question, Jews and CHRISTIANS who lived for 600yrs before Prophet muhammad (saw), regardless of what they knew about this incident before Prophet muhammad arrived, they were not guilty of anything and would not be taken to account because there was no Divine revelation to correct them until Prophet Muhammad came.

Therefore those CHRISTIANs and Jews are excused but you are not. .

Empiree:


To answer last part of your question, Jews and CHRISTIANS who lived for 600yrs before Prophet muhammad (saw), regardless of what they knew about this incident before Prophet muhammad arrived, they were not guilty of anything and would not be taken to account because there was no Divine revelation to correct them until Prophet Muhammad came.

Therefore those CHRISTIANs and Jews are excused but you are not. .

Is this what your Koran says or is it just your CONJECTURE?

sagenaija:

Is this what your Koran says or is it just your CONJECTURE?

Whoever goes right, then he goes right only for the benefit of his ownself. And whoever goes astray, then he goes astray to his own loss. No one laden with burdens can bear another's burden. And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger. Sura 17:25


There was no messenger to clarify what happened to them until Prophet Muhammad came. So follow Prophet Muhammad (SAW)

Empiree:

See why i was reluctant yesterday?. I sensed it would lead to recycled questions. Now you have shifted question. This is gonna be endless discussion. Again, they differed about what really took place (i:e the state of Jesus) about the entire incident. The verse is clear to us. If you find it confusing to you, i am sorry, i don't think i can give you more explanation.

I think the issue is not difficult at all.
There are two scriptures that say entirely different thing about the same issue. Both scriptures are authorities that their adherents follow for judgement, living and the likes.

Now you and me don't have any control of what is written in the scriptures. The Bible is at least 1900 years old while the Qur'an is at least 600 years old.

How does a person decide which of these two scriptures is speaking the truth about the same event. It is by asking relevant questions.

A seeker of the truth can not be content with someone just insisting that their own scripture is speaking the truth. Like Ghulam says he is the Second Advent of both Prophet Muhammad and Jesus. We should not just accept this as Truth unless we can ask them questions relating to the scriptures. In fact as we ask questions, the futility of their claims are made apparent.

Would it be logical for them to refuse answering our questions and yet ask us to believe in their articles of faith? Certainly not!

I didn't shift questions: you brought in a new concept and that requires clarification. You claim that .." they followed a connecture"
I needed to find out who the " they" were.

Finally on this: It is difficult for Muslims to answer the question of "How Jesus was taken to heaven: whether in the presence of the disciples or not".

The reason is very simple: the credibility of Allah is put into question. It is understandable of the almighty Allah devices the Jews and the Romans. But it is a contradiction for Allah to decieve the Christians (including Mary the mother of Jesus).

Empiree:

However, to be fair to you, I have read Ahmadiyya's view before on this incident. But one thing is clear about all muslims is that Jesus was not killed nor crucified. No muslims disputed this. So on Ahmadiyya, they said Jesus was put on the cross, nailed and all that but after people left, Allah rescued him. They said crucifixion is only proven if death occured. Jews however in their view are sure that the one on the cross died right before their eyes which is a proof that he could not have been messiah sent by God bcuz according to their scripture, Messiah would bring Jerusalem glory back. So therefore, i reject Ahmadiyya's view even though they believed he was not killed or crucified. But their theory is in grey area.

Quran however say he was not killed, he was not crucified. Which means he was not on the cross at all. Let's look up definition of crucifixion


* the execution of a person by nailing or binding them to a cross.

* the killing of Jesus Christ by crucifixion.



By the definition, nailling on the cross is crucifixion. Therefore majority of the muslims are correct that Jesus was not even on the cross. This is verse of Quran again



".... but they killed him not, nor crucified him,..... but it appeared so to them,....."

Ahadiyas are exactly equivalent to the Christians Jehovahs witness. It is best not to muddle up what they believe with what Muslims believe. They can be highly irrational at times

shadeyinka:

I didn't shift questions: you brought in a new concept and that requires clarification. You claim that .." they followed a connecture"
I needed to find out who the " they" were.

Finally on this: It is difficult for Muslims to answer the question of "How Jesus was taken to heaven: whether in the presence of the disciples or not".

You insisted on knowing how Jesus was taken to heaven. What purpose it serves you?. Qur'an says he was taken up and you expect me to start describing how?. You funny. Is there anything difficult with taken raising Jesus up to God?.

Secondly you wanted to know if it was in secret or presence of people... despite providing texts over and over. And now you are asking who are "they" when it is clear that his alleged killers were around.

Don't think I'm a fool. I know where your are driving at. Fact is, if you believe that Jesus was taken up in the presence of some people that you probably considered "apostles", you just gonna make your case worse due to contradictory reports they provided in your Bible.

I told you time and again that this was not relevant to us. What's relevant was Quran came to clarify to us that Jesus was not killed nor crucified. This was sufficient to us.

But if you want to give us biblical accounts which we already knew, would only further put you in confusion. So you can bring on your biblical story. But I can assure you that you can't get through it till eternal. I already posted pictures showing your contradictions about this.

Empiree:
Whoever goes right, then he goes right only for the benefit of his ownself. And whoever goes astray, then he goes astray to his own loss. No one laden with burdens can bear another's burden. And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger. Sura 17:25


There was no messenger to clarify what happened to them until Prophet Muhammad came. So follow Prophet Muhammad (SAW)

Even when your own books said that Peter, John and Paul were messengers of Allah?

sagenaija:

Even when your own books said that Peter, John and Paul were messengers of Allah?

Bro, you lost this discussion man. You have nothing to say anymore.

Provide Quran proof for this

Empiree:
Bro, you lost this discussion man. You have nothing to say anymore.

Provide Quran proof for this

See Koran 36:14. You may choose to read from verse 13 - 19 and check the interpretation.

sagenaija:


See Koran 36:14. You may choose to read from verse 13 - 19 and check the interpretation.

Lord have mercy. But you dont even believe in Quran

Where is Peter, Paul and John in those verses?


you are a drama boy. I told you that you have lost this discussion, man

May the peace and blessings be upon Muhammad(SAW)

Empiree:
Lord have mercy. But you dont even believe in Quran

Where is Peter, Paul and John in those verses?

you are a drama boy. I told you that you have lost this discussion, man

May the peace and blessings be upon Muhammad(SAW)

You KNOW that you also rely on interpretation to explain your Koran, right?
Now see this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPW2WixCv40

Check here for more:
https://www.nairaland.com/5115204/christian-prince-muslim-keep-attacking

Empiree:
You insisted on knowing how Jesus was taken to heaven. What purpose it serves you?. Qur'an says he was taken up and you expect me to start describing how?. You funny. Is there anything difficult with taken raising Jesus up to God?.

Secondly you wanted to know if it was in secret or presence of people... despite providing texts over and over. And now you are asking who are "they" when it is clear that his alleged killers were around.

Don't think I'm a fool. I know where your are driving at. Fact is, if you believe that Jesus was taken up in the presence of some people that you probably considered "apostles", you just gonna make your case worse due to contradictory reports they provided in your Bible.

I told you time and again that this was not relevant to us. What's relevant was Quran came to clarify to us that Jesus was not killed nor crucified. This was sufficient to us.

But if you want to give us biblical accounts which we already knew, would only further put you in confusion. So you can bring on your biblical story. But I can assure you that you can't get through it till eternal. I already posted pictures showing your contradictions about this.

You don't know me at all. I am not going that far to say that Jesus was taken up to heaven in the presence of the disciples. No!
That's too obvious.

If Allah took Jesus up without the knowledge of the Disciples, then Allah must indeed be the greatest deciever. This could mean that the followers of Prophet Mohammed too have been decieved

If Allah took up Jesus with the knowledge of some apostles, then it makes no sense for the apostles to fabricate a lie which says their Lord and Master was Crucified stark naked as a violent criminal.

But since Allah's book cannot be questioned, how sure are you that you haven't been deciever like the disciples of Jesus! If the disciples of Jesus could be deciever by Allah, your own fate will be worse!

shadeyinka:

You don't know me at all. I am not going that far to say that Jesus was taken up to heaven in the presence of the disciples. No!
That's too obvious.

If Allah took Jesus up without the knowledge of the Disciples, then Allah must indeed be the greatest deciever. This could mean that the followers of Prophet Mohammed too have been decieved

If Allah took up Jesus with the knowledge of some apostles, then it makes no sense for the apostles to fabricate a lie which says their Lord and Master was Crucified stark naked as a violent criminal.

But since Allah's book cannot be questioned, how sure are you that you haven't been deciever like the disciples of Jesus! If the disciples of Jesus could be deciever by Allah, your own fate will be worse!

You sure this reply was meant for me?. Sounds like you are confused.

I have now reached the bottom of this discussion bro. Onus lies is on you to provide contradicted stories of the cross.

Like I said to your fellow CHRISTIAN brother, you have also lost this discussion. My job is done here. I can now take my leave. Thank you for inviting me to serve your thread. I appreciate it. If you have any question in the future don't hesitate to hola at me.



Note:

Kindly revisit your 200L discussions you had with muslims then. Compared to this and you realized you have been duly answered

#unfollow

shadeyinka:

You don't know me at all. I am not going that far to say that Jesus was taken up to heaven in the presence of the disciples. No!
That's too obvious.

If Allah took Jesus up without the knowledge of the Disciples, then Allah must indeed be the greatest deciever. This could mean that the followers of Prophet Mohammed too have been decieved

If Allah took up Jesus with the knowledge of some apostles, then it makes no sense for the apostles to fabricate a lie which says their Lord and Master was Crucified stark naked as a violent criminal.

But since Allah's book cannot be questioned, how sure are you that you haven't been deciever like the disciples of Jesus! If the disciples of Jesus could be deciever by Allah, your own fate will be worse!

I completely agree with you.
They can't be sure they haven't been deceived by Allah.
Empiree is lost in the woods.

Because they can't answer to the simple objections to the Koran they run away claiming 'victory' when I'm reality they know inside them that the fear of confronting the truth haunts them continuously.

Why did Allah have to deceive?
If he did it once who says he can't do it over and over again?
These are simple food for thought questions that Moslems ought to ask themselves.
But Mohamed/Allah ensured that they must not ask questions. As a result many of them keep mum but live their religious life as they wish even when it deviates from the Koran and Mohamed they claim to follow.

Empiree:
You sure this reply was meant for me?. Sounds like you are confused.

I have now reached the bottom of this discussion bro. Onus lies is on you to provide contradicted stories of the cross.

Like I said to your fellow CHRISTIAN brother, you have also lost this discussion. My job is done here. I can now take my leave. Thank you for inviting me to serve your thread. I appreciate it. If you have any question in the future don't hesitate to hola at me.



Note:

Kindly revisit your 200L discussions you had with muslims then. Compared to this and you realized you have been duly answered

#unfollow

Couldn't help but laugh sarcastically at you.

You were asked a very simple question. "Was Jesus taken to heaven in secret OR in the presence of his disciples?"

Over a hundred posts later with no ANSWER, you suddenly declared yourself a winner!! First from the end of the class.

If there was a single post where the Question was answered repost it and you win!

Allah is indeed the greatest deciever who has decieved all Muslims as he did the disciples of Christ and his mother!

sagenaija:

I completely agree with you.
They can't be sure they haven't been receive by Allah.
Empiree is lost in the woods.

Because they can't answer to the simple objections to the Koran they run away claiming 'victory' when I'm reality they know inside them that the fear of confronting the truth haunts them continuously.

Why did Allah have to deceive?
If he did it once who says he can't do it over and over again?
These are simple food for thought questions that Moslems ought to ask themselves.
But Mohamed/Allah ensured that they must not ask questions. As a result many of them keep mum but live their religious life as they wish even when it deviates from the Koran and Mohamed they claim to follow.

They are used to being asked to prove that Jesus Christ wasn't Crucified but people seldom ask them to explain how Jesus was taken to heaven.

Now, they exhibit tantrums because the answer hasn't yet been fabricated!

Qur'an 3:54
But they (the Jews) were deceptive, and Allah was deceptive, for Allah is the best of deceivers (Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu waAllahu khayru al-makireena)! S. 3:54;

Allah has indeed decieved Moslems

shadeyinka:

Thanks for your input!

You know what usually brings people to the Court of law?
It is two opposing and contradicting versions of what is perceived as the truth by both parties.

The purpose of the judicial system is to find out who is speaking the Full TRUTH and who is lying. This is done by systematically asking them both relevant Questions which finally reveals who is speaking the exact truth. No amount of repetition of I am not guilty will change anything when the questioning shows the opposite.

The crux of the matter is this:

Christians say they saw Jesus being bodily taken to heaven AFTER the Crucifixion.
Muslims says Jesus being bodily taken to heaven BEFORE the Crucifixion.

Based on this, we present a little question to Muslims!

Was Jesus taken to heaven by Allah secretly or in the presence of a few of His disciples?

The Question is very easy, two options as there cannot be another option.


Here is the summary of what the Bible teaches about the Crucifixion of Jesus

Ok.
Now I'm skeptical about this version of the story, but some Muslim clerics site it as supporting the Quran verses so here it is.

According to the Gospel of Barnabas it was Judas, not Jesus, who was crucified on the cross. This work states that when Judas led the Roman soldiers to arrest Jesus in an effort to betray him, angels appeared to take Jesus out a window and up to the heavens (Which would mean it was in secrecy). As Judas entered the room, his appearance was transformed to that of Jesus, and the Romans arrested him and brought him to be crucified. The narrative states this transformation of appearance not only fooled the Romans, but the Pharisees, the High Priest, the followers of Christ, and his mother Mary.
The Gospel of Barnabas then mentions that after three days since burial, Judas' body was stolen from his grave with rumors spreading of Jesus being risen from the dead. When Jesus was informed in the third heaven about what happened he prayed to God to be sent back to the earth, and later descended and gathered his mother, disciples, and followers and told them the truth of what happened. He then ascended back to the heavens (but this section would mean it was in front of his disciples) to return at end times as a just king.

Another different one is that Jesus asked for someone to volunteer to be crucified instead of him. Simon of Cyrene is the person most commonly believed to have done it, perhaps because according to the Synoptic Gospels he was compelled by the Romans to carry Jesus' cross for him (there is no indication in the Gospels that he volunteered). To answer your (supposedly easy) question This would imply that Jesus was possibly ascended without anyone noticing.
There is lack of detail about the crusifixtion of Jesus in the Qur'an and Islam as a whole because it holds no major importance to the massage of the religion.
Now based on this verse
"Surah An-Nisa, Verse 157:
And their boast (Jews), "Behold, we have slain the Christ Jesus, son of Mary, an apostle of God!" However, they did not slay him, and neither did they crucify him, but it only seemed to them so; and, verily, those who hold conflict­ing views thereon are indeed confused, having no knowledge thereof, and following mere con­jecture. For, of a certainty, they did not slay him:
(English - Mohd Asad)"
Some clerics agree that Jesus was crusifed, but not by the jews (it was Romans) and that he did not die on the cross, he only appeared to die and after being buried in his thumb, he woke up and three days later was ascended into heaven. Others say that indeed Jesus was crusifed and died on the cross, but his spirit(the word) was not hurt or destroyed, hence they did not kill him (in spirit) but they believed they did and his spirit was ascended. (These are unpopular views and I personally don't agree with them)
What I was trying to point out earlier is that muslims site a different source from christians as their reference that the two don't agreed upon and a nairaland discussion isn't going to resolve a 600+ year old debate.

IMAliyu:

Ok.
Now I'm skeptical about this version of the story, but some Muslim clerics site it as supporting the Quran verses so here it is.

What I was trying to point out earlier is that muslims site a different source from christians as their reference that the two don't agreed upon and a nairaland discussion isn't going to resolve a 600+ year old debate.

when it comes to citing CHRISTIAN sources, standard protocol is that we neither agree nor disagree on issue that are not entirely narrated in the Qur'an and Sunnah. It is true that for centuries many muslims believe in the theory of substitution of Judas due to his betrayal nature which suggested he deserved it.

However, since this story is not from our sources, we neither deny or agree with it. This is my position. I used to believe in the theory to be honest but I dropped it 10yrs ago because if Judas was not actually the person, it is Haram to say Allah substituted innocent life for Jesus and they killed that person.

This is unjust (astagfurllahi) because God is just. Although some Quran translators like Sahih International placed in the parentheses that someone else was killed. This obviouys is opinion. This is why I stick to text in the arabic context which made no mentioned of anything like that.

Question is, do you think this guys would accept this theory knowing too well the implications?.

The implication is that Gospel of Barnabas rejected Lordship and Sonship of Jesus. It goes further to say that Jesus Christ was not killed. This is why you don't see CHRISTIANs use his Gospel because it goes against fabricated Pauline religion.

For record, St. Barnabas was a blind disciple of Jesus. His recordings are more credible than 4 chronological Gospels. So if Judas was indeed a traitor, it was possible that he was the one that Allaah made appeared so to them (to think that Jesus was killed). But I distance myself from that theory.

As for whether ascension of Jesus was in secret or in the open, that's just irrelevant as I have been telling these guys. I just don't understand how that's so important to them.

This is why I have no intention of replying them on the issue anymore until they retrieved their senses.

Empiree:
when it comes to citing CHRISTIAN sources, standard protocol is that we neither agree nor disagree on issue that are not entirely narrated in the Qur'an and Sunnah. It is true that for centuries many muslims believe in the theory of substitution of Judas due to his betrayal nature which suggested he deserved it.

However, since this story is not from our sources, we neither deny or agree with it. This is my position. I used to believe in the theory to be honest but I dropped it 10yrs ago because if Judas was not actually the person, it is Haram to say Allah substituted innocent life for Jesus and they killed that person.

This is unjust (astagfurllahi) because God is just. Although some Quran translators like Sahih International placed in the parentheses that someone else was killed. This obviouys is opinion. This is why I stick to text in the arabic context which made no mentioned of anything like that.

Question is, do you think this guys would accept this theory knowing too well the implications?.

The implication is that Gospel of Barnabas rejected Lordship and Sonship of Jesus. It goes further to say that Jesus Christ was not killed. This is why you don't see CHRISTIANs use his Gospel because it goes against fabricated Pauline religion.

For record, St. Barnabas was a blind disciple of Jesus. His recordings are more credible than 4 chronological Gospels. So if Judas was indeed a traitor, it was possible that he was the one that Allaah made appeared so to them (to think that Jesus was killed). But I distance myself from that theory.

As for whether ascension of Jesus was in secret or in the open, that's just irrelevant as I have been telling these guys. I just don't understand how that's so important to them.

This is why I have no intention of replying them on the issue anymore until they retrieved their senses.

I agree.
They will deny it because contemporary christians don't accept that gospel, they believe it was fabricated by Muslims.
They don't seem to understand that the crusification is not a central or even a significant part of Islam (cause it didn't happen). As to how Allah saved Jesus(AS). They are quick to say God works in mysterious ways but can't accept that God would save his massager in a (mysterious) way we don't know or understand.

IMAliyu:

I agree.
They will deny it because contemporary christians don't accept that gospel, they believe it was fabricated by Muslims.
They don't seem to understand that the crusification is not a central or even a significant part of Islam (course it didn't happen). As to how Allah saved Jesus(AS). They are quick to say God works in mysterious ways but can't accept that God would save his massager in a (mysterious) way we don't know or understand.

my points exactly. I don't understand why it is so difficult to understand.

Yet, they believe their pastor's so called miracles. He stooped so low to compare God's raising Jesus to magician. This is crazy. They will not agree with us and we will definitely not agree with them.

IMAliyu:

Ok.
Now I'm skeptical about this version of the story, but some Muslim clerics site it as supporting the Quran verses so here it is.

Another different one is that Jesus asked for someone to volunteer to be crucified instead of him. Simon of Cyrene is the person most commonly believed to have done it, perhaps because according to the Synoptic Gospels he was compelled by the Romans to carry Jesus' cross for him (there is no indication in the Gospels that he volunteered). To answer your (supposedly easy) question This would imply that Jesus was possibly ascended without anyone noticing.
There is lack of detail about the crusifixtion of Jesus in the Qur'an and Islam as a whole because it holds no major importance to the massage of the religion.
Now based on this verse
"Surah An-Nisa, Verse 157:
And their boast (Jews), "Behold, we have slain the Christ Jesus, son of Mary, an apostle of God!" However, they did not slay him, and neither did they crucify him, but it only seemed to them so; and, verily, those who hold conflict­ing views thereon are indeed confused, having no knowledge thereof, and following mere con­jecture. For, of a certainty, they did not slay him:
(English - Mohd Asad)"
Some clerics agree that Jesus was crusifed, but not by the jews (it was Romans) and that he did not die on the cross, he only appeared to die and after being buried in his thumb, he woke up and three days later was ascended into heaven. Others say that indeed Jesus was crusifed and died on the cross, but his spirit(the word) was not hurt or destroyed, hence they did not kill him (in spirit) but they believed they did and his spirit was ascended. (These are unpopular views and I personally don't agree with them)
What I was trying to point out earlier is that muslims site a different source from christians as their reference that the two don't agreed upon and a nairaland discussion isn't going to resolve a 600+ year old debate.

I like the civil way in which you presented your views even though the Question was still NOT answered. I am aware of the several different postulates of Islam on this issue. This question was one of those that prevented me from reciting the shahada in my 200 Levels ( the contradiction between the Bible and Qur'an on the Death of Christ) and the conflicting response of Islam.

What I have done now is put the Islamic version to the test of truth by asking a simple question (on what both faiths agree about: that Jesus was taken to heaven bodily) for it reveals which version of the story could be trusted.

You will note that I have carefully avoided the question of the Crucifixion itself and who was Crucified : so that it doesn't matter who was Crucified in the place of Christ BUT to "How Jesus was taken to Heaven".

However you look at it, Allah taking up Jesus to heaven would either be
1. With the knowledge of Jesus's disciples OR
2. Without their knowledge.

If it was with the knowledge of the disciples, then there was no reason why the disciples will insist that Jesus was Crucified on the cross AND the Islamic version (any one of them) would be untrue.

If it was without the knowledge of the disciples, it portrays Allah as unjustly wicked and a deciever who decieved Mary and the disciples and caused Christians to see Christ as Saviour. This is against the character of Allah for Allah is righteous. Who made Mary to follow a conjecture? Is it not Allah? It cannot be, hence this version is most likely untrue.

The whole of Christianity is based on the Death and Resurrection of Christ. Remove it and everything about Christianity scatters irrevocably. So, you can see why it is extremely important both to Allah and Christians.

1Cor15:14
And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

I honestly think it is myopic and naive to JUST pick a version of two conflicting histories/stories and accept it as truth while avoiding to Question it. For the Truth is ALWAYS validated by questioning.

Empiree:

..........

As for whether ascension of Jesus was in secret or in the open, that's just irrelevant as I have been telling these guys. I just don't understand how that's so important to them.

This is why I have no intention of replying them on the issue anymore until they retrieved their senses.

That which you chose to waive aside is grievously important.
WHY?
The Almighty Allah created Christianity with a grand DECEPTION!

The almighty Allah
1. Sent Jesus to the Jews to preach and have followers
2. The Jews connived with the Romans to kill Jesus
3. Allah decieved NOT ONLY the Jews and Romans, BUT Mary, the Apostles and Disciples of Jesus.

The deception was so perfect that
1. The Romans knew that they killed Jesus
2. The Jews boast that they killed Jesus
3. The Christians rejoice that Jesus was killed but resurrected on the third day and thereby created a new religion different from Islam: thereby all going to hell.

Allah is all knowing!

shadeyinka:

John the Disciple of Jesus was present.
Jesus even handed over Mary his mother to him for caring. Mary lived with John until she died

John 19:25-27
"25 Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, 'Dear woman, here is your son,' 27 and to the disciple, 'Here is your mother.' From that time on, this disciple took her into his home."

On the contrary,

Mark says:

“Then everyone deserted him and fled.”
Mark 14:50 – New International Version (NIV)

Rashduct4luv:


On the contrary,

Mark says:

“Then everyone deserted him and fled.”
Mark 14:50 – New International Version (NIV)

Are you guys so DUMB?
At what point in time was this?
At the cross?

sagenaija:

Are you guys so DUMB?
At what point in time was this?
At the cross?

Expatiate and enlighten our dumbness please!

Empiree:


This is why I have no intention of replying them on the issue anymore until they retrieved their senses.

Empiree, You are the one who needs to 'retrieve your senses'.

You post about everything else - the gospel of Barnabas (written by who & when?), betrayal by Judas (in the Koran?), etc, but answer simple questions and you run away.

You said: 'God is just'. You said also that 'it is haram to say Allah substituted innocent life for Jesus and they killed that person'.

Now, there can only be 2 days of looking at that portion of the Koran - "it was made to appear. ........"
1. Allah showed them a movie (however he did it) when in REALITY there was no crucifixion.
2. They thought it was Jesus being crucified when in REALITY it was another person.

Either way Allah DECEIVED them. He made not just a few but ALL of them SEE or THINK what did not happen actually happened. That was really a large scale deception.

So, How do these line up with the 'just' Allah?
PS
Btw, the magician example was an 'ILLUSTRATION' to help you see my line of reasoning. Is comprehension a problem for you guys? Like the guy who quoted Mark 14:50 and did not bother to see where this was in the sequence of things. The Bible is not like the Koran where TOTALLY UNRELATED verses follow each other. It is well laid out.

Rashduct4luv:


Expatiate and enlighten our dumbness please!

Shadeyinka mentioned those who were at the crucifixion.
You now countered it by quoting that verse.
But that incident of Mark 14:50 was NOT at the crucifixion.
Do you get it now?
I pray for you: "Be released from dumbness"

sagenaija:

Shadeyinka mentioned those who were at the crucifixion.
You now countered it by quoting that verse.
But that incident of Mark 14:50 was NOT at the crucifixion.
Do you get it now?
I pray for you: "Be released from dumbness"

Explain:

1. who deserted him & fled?

2. When did they deserted him & fled?

3. When did they came back to support him while he was dying in the Bible thus witnessing his death?

Bible verses please!

My Dear friend, in Islam, translated is not the same as the original Quran. This is the reason Muslims worldwide learn the Quran in the Language it was revealed.
NOTE: Quran has no version. But it has been translated into different languages and with different commentaries.
It obvious there are lot people do not understand about islam even mulims alike; the more reason islamic issues are tackled based on knowledge & not logic by the knowledgeable ones.

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shadeyinka:

As far as they are concerned, the Bible is English king James Bible.

Most Muslims don't even know that they have more than 60 English translations of the Arabic Qur'an.

Rashduct4luv:


Explain:

1. who deserted him & fled?

2. When did they deserted him & fled?

3. When did they came back to support him while he was dying in the Bible thus witnessing his death?

Bible verses please!

You quoted the portion, didn't you?
Read the entire chapter.

omorkelly:
My Dear friend, in Islam, translated is not the same as the original Quran. This is the reason Muslims worldwide learn the Quran in the Language it was revealed.
NOTE: Quran has no version. But it has been translated into different languages and with different commentaries.
It obvious there are lot people do not understand about islam even mulims alike; the more reason islamic issues are tackled based on knowledge & not logic by the knowledgeable ones.

Read my language again.
There are more than 60 different English translations of the Arabic Qur'an.
And the Bible has translations for every language under the heavens and almost 200 or more English translations.

The only question on this thread you have dodged as usual is:

When Allah took Jesus to heaven, was in in secret or in the presence of some disciples?

Rashduct4luv:


Explain:

1. who deserted him & fled?

2. When did they deserted him & fled?

3. When did they came back to support him while he was dying in the Bible thus witnessing his death?

Bible verses please!

sagenaija:

Shadeyinka mentioned those who were at the crucifixion.
You now countered it by quoting that verse.
But that incident of Mark 14:50 was NOT at the crucifixion.
Do you get it now?
I pray for you: "Be released from dumbness"

Open your eyes since Arrest = Crucifixion

John 19:25-27 :
"Now there stood by the cross of Jesus,
his mother, and
his mother's sister ,
Mary the wife of Cleophas, and
Mary Magdalene.
Jesus therefore seeing his mother, and
the disciple whom he loved standing near,
saith to his, “mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then he saith to the disciple, Behold thy mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home."

Instead of answering the simple question, you are busy trying to claim that Mary couldn't recognise her son.

Oh I forgot. The almighty Allah DECIEVED Mary too and ALL the Apostles and Disciples. Allah is indeed all wise!