Empiree:
what I don't understand is, why are you concerned about Shia, wahabi, Salafi?. If this your priority?

Your eternal soul is not something you should gamble with. Personally, I am careful with what I feed it with.

I am unapologetically Pro-Shia and I love sufism. I have not made a decision on Tijanniyya yet, I am still trying to understand what they fully represent.

I am torn in between because it is both sufist and sunni. It is the only part of sunnism I am not outrightly anti to.

Wahabism is a NO-NO. They have massacred more Shias than christians.

aadoiza:

Well you have overwhelming evidence to back your claim, but are you saying Umar would deliberately go against a well-established sunnah? I think not. He had good reasons to fix the chaotic situation resulting from the too many people observing nawafil separately that night by enjoining them to do so in congregation. Of course the Prophet's way is the best way, and the congregation type should be done with the intention bringing people together, even if not as rewarding..

In sha Allah, I will get different perspectives on this.

this is my point. There is energy in group or jummah. I have pointed out some undeniable facts why congregational taraweeh is good. This is why I said it is good bidiah as Umar (ra) rightly said. Forget about linguistics nonesense.

Empiree:
this is my point. There is energy in group or jummah. I have pointed out some undeniable facts why congregational taraweeh is good. This is why I said it is good bidiah as Umar (ra) rightly said. Forget about linguistics nonesense.

What is your take on the Prophet disbanding the congregation lest it be made obligatory?

ChristianNorth:

Your eternal soul is not something you should gamble with. Personally, I am careful with what I feed it with.

I am unapologetically Pro-Shia and I love sufism. I have not made a decision on Tijanniyya yet, I am still trying to understand what they fully represent.

I am torn in between because it is both sufist and sunni. It is the only part of sunnism I am not outrightly anti to.

Wahabism is a NO-NO. They have massacred more Shias than christians.

seems to me you are basically interested in Islam. In that case, your approach is wrong, period.


Islam is not about Shia, Sufi, wahabi, Salafi, tijjaniya and so on. All these sects you mentioned have one thing in common, Tawheed. This is the foundation on which Islam is built.

Anything else is ideology base. You will be wasting your precious time trying to join a sect. What if after you joined and later found out they are doing something that is not in harmony with Islam?. Then you blame Islam altogether and renounce it?. Whose fault is that?. You or Islam?.

This is what some reverts do. They joined sect instead of joining Islam. You are not doing yourself any favor by starting with sectarian differences. Who that help?.

All the sects have some sort of evidences they are known for that are derived from Qur'an and Sunnah. So you better get your priority right, man.

Empiree:
seems to me you are basically interested in Islam. In that case, your approach is wrong, period.


Islam is not about Shia, Sufi, wahabi, Salafi, tijjaniya and so on. All these sects you mentioned have one thing in common, Tawheed. This is the foundation on which Islam is built.

Anything else is ideology base. You will be wasting your precious time trying to join a sect. What if after you joined and later found out they are doing something that is not in harmony with Islam?. Then you blame Islam altogether and renounce it?. Whose fault is that?. You or Islam?.

This is what some reverts do. They joined sect instead of joining Islam. You are not doing yourself any favor by starting with sectarian differences. Who that help?.

All the sects have some sort of evidences they are known for that are derived from Qur'an and Sunnah. So you better get your priority right, man.

I will continue sieving, it is safer that way.

By the way, what you call Tawheed, is what Christians call Trinity. It holds that God is one and single but manifests himself in 3 dimensions- As a loving father, as a son (to relate with men (son of man)) and as a Spirit (to provide guidance).

As these 3 are ONE.

Belonging to a sect helps one to put his beliefs into perspective. Without it, one is like a ship without rudders on a wavering sea.

ChristianNorth:


By the way, what you call Tawheed, is what Christians call Trinity. It holds that God is one and single but manifests himself in 3 dimensions- As a loving father, as a son (to relate with men (son of man)) and as a Spirit (to provide guidance).

As these 3 are ONE.

and you went to school and got certificate yet you came to this conclusion?. Fantastic!

Trinity and tawheed are two opposing sides, buddy.

Belonging to a sect helps one to put his beliefs into perspective. Without it, one is like a ship without rudders on a wavering sea.

sorry buddy. Islam opposes sects.

Read this.


Verily, those who divide their religion and break up into sects (all kinds of religious sects), you (O Muhammad SAW) have no concern in them in the least. Their affair is only with Allah, Who then will tell them what they used to do.

Sura 6:159



Does this mean anything to you?

aadoiza:

What is your take on the Prophet disbanding the congregation lest it be made obligatory?

if he didn't do that, there would have been no distinction between fard salat and nawafil. His aim was not about congregation itself but congregation of nawafil especially when it is done continuously for 29/30 days. They would assume it is fard if he didn't disband it.


Let's be clear on something. Sahaba would normally follow the prophet (saw) in almost anything since he is their leader. So they were right to come out and join him.

Empiree:
and you went to school and got certificate yet you came to this conclusion?. Fantastic!

Trinity and tawheed are two opposing sides, buddy.

Believe whatever you want. Christians are monotheists and that is what Trinity is all about.

Empiree:


sorry buddy. Islam opposes sects.

Read this.


Verily, those who divide their religion and break up into sects (all kinds of religious sects), you (O Muhammad SAW) have no concern in them in the least. Their affair is only with Allah, Who then will tell them what they used to do.

Sura 6:159



Does this mean anything to you?

Yet, you have sects in Islam.

Empiree:
^^^

Your point two has lots of consequences.

Qur'an and Sunnah are there side by side and Allah also gave His Prophets and messangers HIKMA. It is that HIKMA that Umar applied when he saw masjid so chaotic. Everyone is praying individually and loud. We don't need PhD to figure it out that something must be done which is what Umar (ra) did. He did the right thing.


You chose wrong choice of word "forbidden" with regard to taraweeh in congregation. Again, if not because of congregational taraweeh how are muslims going to gather in Ramadan?.


In Ramadan you get to see hungry Muslims come out to eat at Masajid. If not for kima used by Umar, how are they gonna eat if they don't have food?. Myself go to different Masajid in Ramadan everyday to eat and bring free food home.

If we are to sleep and return for taraweeh, I bet you only very few would come to masjid. So HIKMA is applied. Islam is to be understood with time. At the time of nabi Muslim population was handful. Today we are billions.


So HIKMA was applied by Umar. It is unfair to say he go against the prophet in this instance. Just imagine they didn't compiled Quran?.

If I'm to apply your notion that bidiat is bidiat, then, we are gonna suffer as Muslims today bcus Quran would have still be written on different pieces. Therefore, Umar and uthman(ra) applied their HIKMA.



So congregational taraweeh is a good practice whether it was concocted after nabi or not. People used to gather for Dua and dhikr in the time of the prophet (saw). This means gathering in itself is not bidiah. And Taraweeh is not bidiah. So if Sunnis gather for Taraweeh, how it's that problem?. The only time I don't I don't attend taraweeh is when I'm kinda weak or late at work.

Surah Al-Ahzab, Verse 34:

And keep to mind what is recited in your houses of the verses of Allah and the HIKMAT; surely Allah is Knower of subtleties, Aware."

Just like verse of the Quran, Hikmat was also revealed and recited to the Prophet. Sunni argued Hikmat here is synonymous with the Sunnah of the Prophet. If that is the case, Umar's so-called Hikmat shouldn't contradict or overrule that of the Prophet's.

For your information, Umar did not even use any Hikmat. He stated clearly from the hadith (please read again), "IN MY OWN OPINION..."

# Your submission is flawed because of its desperate approach to justify Umar's action. What you failed to realize was that during the lifetime of the Prophet, there were large number of destitute, the Ahlu Suffa, leaving inside and on the rooftop of Prophet's mosque. Prophet and other wealthy sahabah regularly provide food and shelter for them. Did they constituted nuisance in their private ibaadat then knowing how the place will always be crowdy and rowdy?

# Mosque has always been a place for spiritual, social and political affairs of the Muslims. Till date, even if you have something to distribute or need help and know nowhere to go, mosque is your best destination. Is or should this be limited because of tarawih? For Allah's sake tarawih is just 30 days max in 12 months. Destitute and other Muslims don't need one tarawih to gather them in a mosque for their hajat (need) to be fulfilled. 5 daily salat and especially salat Jumuat (salat of congregations weekly) are there.

Please bro, don't bring such excuse again o.

aadoiza:

Well you have overwhelming evidence to back your claim, but are you saying Umar would deliberately go against a well-established sunnah? I think not. He had good reasons to fix the chaotic situation resulting from the too many people observing nawafil separately that night by enjoining them to do so in congregation. Of course the Prophet's way is the best way, and the congregation type should be done with the intention bringing people together, even if not as rewarding..

In sha Allah, I will get different perspectives on this.

At bold, this was never the first time Umar ibn al-khattab will overrule established Sunnah of the Prophet.

Imam nasai documents:

 It was narrated that Ibn 'Abbas said:

"I heard 'Umar say" 'By Allah, I forbid you to perform Tamattur,' but it is mentioned in the Book of Allah and the Messenger of Allah did it" meaning 'Umrah with Hajj.

Grade : Sahih (Darrusalam)
Sunan an-Nasa'i 2736
In-book reference : Book 24, Hadith 0
English translation : Vol. 3, Book 24, Hadith 2737
https://sunnah.com/urn/1079050

Below is a thread for further reading if you wish. There, I have highlighted 1 over 100s of Umar's blatant opposition to the law of Allah and His Prophet because of his own opinion and desires and many sahabah used to oppose him for that. Unfortunately you see Umar beating and terrorising them sometimes for doing so.
https://www.nairaland.com/3038732/identifying-khulafau-rashidun-rightly-guided

aadoiza:

Sun ke, for twelve? Nba

It is sad indeed. To call a spade a spade, Albaqir is 100% right on this and he brought forth daleel from sunni sources to support his claim. However, someone like me don't believe every bidiah is bad. Take group dhikr for instance, with all the condemnation thereof by Allu sunnah I don't see the wrong in a group of people calling Allah's names and praising him. We tend to make unnecessary fuss over irrelevancies

Dear brother, all bid'at in religion are misguidance and will lead straight to hell as the Prophet clearly said. What people especially the salafi failed to understand is the definition of bid'at and conditions for something to be tag "Bid'at. Rather they tag everything "new" bid'at. What is not bid'at is not bid'at despite the fact that Prophet or sahabah never practice it or not mentioned specifically in the Quran.


Imam Abu'l Hasan Ali Daraqutni documents:

Abu Tha’laba reported:

4316 \ 42 - The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Verily, Allah has made duties obligatory, so do not neglect them. He has set limits, so do not transgress them. He has made some things sacred, so do no violate them. He has remained silent upon matters as mercy for you, not out of forgetfulness, so do not search them out.”
  

Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Ibn Al-Qayyim

Source: Ali ibn Umar Ad-Daraqutni, Sunan al-Dāraquṭnī (Dar Muh'yid, 1422 A.H) Hadith #4316


# The above hadith give room for new things not mentioned by Allah and His Prophet. This is the reason Prophet further says that "anyone who brings new practice to religion and people follow that good practice will be rewarded by Allah".


# Now, Describing innovation and innovators, Imam Ali ibn Abi Taalib in a sahih hadith says:

The innovators are those who contradict the command of Allah, His Book and His Messenger; they are those who follow their own opinion and desires, even if they are the majority"

Source: kanz al-Ummal, hadith no.44216

Hope you see the difference between good practice and Bid'at.

Now questions are:

Did Umar brought is own opinion?
Did he overrule Prophet's exclusive instructions?
Going by the hadith, answer to those questions are capital YES.

Empiree:
if he didn't do that, there would have been no distinction between fard salat and nawafil. His aim was not about congregation itself but congregation of nawafil especially when it is done continuously for 29/30 days. They would assume it is fard if he didn't disband it.


Let's be clear on something. Sahaba would normally follow the prophet (saw) in almost anything since he is their leader. So they were right to come out and join him.

Unfortunately, you have looked at the hadith from one angle only. From the other angle, another hadith did not even bring that dalil that "I'm afraid it might turn obligatory for you". For a fact, I believe that part was fabricated by hadith forgers to justify Umar's BID'AT. Sahabah were not that stupid and daft not to discern fard from recommended salat. Even my 5 year old daughter knew that clearly.


# The dalil of the second hadith which is true and make more sense than the first was, "you people persist this salat be in jamaah, go home and pray it FOR SALAT (nawafil) PRAYED AT HOME INDIVIDUALLY EXCEPT FARD SALAT IS BETTER".

Are you saying "is better" is limited to that time or the "better" will continue to be till qiyamat?

Yet, Umar bold recognized this when he said, "What good Bid'at this is; BUT the one they sleep (then wake) and pray is better than this". Umar never argued based on the fact that people will misunderstood it for fard salat.

Alhajiemeritus:

During the prophet's time all Quran verses were not compiled in a single place but during Umar's Kaliphate the Quran was compiled into one that we even have a verse of concern.
Will they call that bidiah too, since the holy prophet did not do it.
I just tire for all the bidiasts.
Yes that's their name Bidiasts.

# Anyway, that story of Quran not compiled during the lifetime of the Prophet is incorrect despite being popular. If Prophet could not compiled Quran for 23 years of his mission then, what sense does that make?

For a fact, Prophet had regular scribes who write Quran down under instructions and supervision of the Prophet. By the time the last verse was revealed, everything has been put in its rightful place and gathered together.

Here's a testimony:

Narrated Qatada:

Anas said, "The Qur'an was collected in the lifetime of the Prophet (peace be upon him) by four (men), all of whom were from the Ansar: Ubai, Mu`adh bin Jabal, Abu Zaid and Zaid bin Thabit." I asked Anas, "Who is Abu Zaid?" He said, "One of my uncles."


Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 3810
In-book reference : Book 63, Hadith 36
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 5, Book 58, Hadith 155
https://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/63/36


# Now for the benefit of doubt, let us agree Quran was not gathered during the lifetime of the Prophet and it only took the efforts of the Caliphs to gather it. Does that gathering into book form constitute to Bid'ah? Absolutely NO.

This hadith gives the general rule:


Imam Abu'l Hasan Ali Daraqutni documents:

Abu Tha’laba reported:

4316 \ 42 - The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Verily, Allah has made duties obligatory, so do not neglect them. He has set limits, so do not transgress them. He has made some things sacred, so do no violate them. He has remained silent upon matters as mercy for you, not out of forgetfulness, so do not search them out.”


Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Ibn Al-Qayyim

Source: Ali ibn Umar Ad-Daraqutni, Sunan al-Dāraquṭnī (Dar Muh'yid, 1422 A.H) Hadith #4316

ANYTHING NEW that is not specifically mentioned by Allah or practice by His Prophet, if it does not contradict the established principles of Islam, will be rate under the bold part in the hadith. Besides, Quran says:

Surah Al-Anaam, vs 160:

"Whoever brings a good deed, he shall have ten like it, and whoever brings an evil deed, he shall be recompensed only with the like of it, and they shall not be dealt with unjustly."


Imam Muslim also documents this Hadith:

The Prophet says:

He who introduced some good practice in Islam which was followed after him (by people) he would be assured of reward like one who followed it, without their rewards being diminished in any respect. And he who introduced some evil practice in Islam which had been followed subsequently (by others), he would be required to bear the burden like that of one who followed this (evil practice) without their's being diminished in any respect.

Hadith # 6466
https://sunnah.com/muslim/47/26

Observe lest you are hoodwinked! Neither the ayah nor the hadith is talking about established Sunnah of the Prophet. Both talk about "new good deed and practice" and observe "bid'at" whether linguistically or meaning-stically was not used rather "good deed and good practice" is used.

never mind my vocabulary "meaning-stically".

aadoiza:
Take group dhikr for instance, with all the condemnation thereof by Allu sunnah I don't see the wrong in a group of people calling Allah's names and praising him. We tend to make unnecessary fuss over irrelevancies

# For a fact there is nothing wrong in dhikr in congregations. There are too many justification for it in the Quran and hadith.

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 191

"Those who are doing Allah's dhikr standing and sitting and lying on their sides and reflect on the creation of the heavens and the earth: Our Lord! Thou hast not created this in vain! Glory be to Thee; save us then from the chastisement of the fire"

This verse is so flexible in its interpretation that it fit all situation: whether you interpret it:

1. Referring to individuals at the same or different time and different place; therefore, referring to them collectively or

2. Congregations of different or one group at the same or different time and place.

It fits all the two. So it is sheer ignorance to attack child in congregations. The manner and what is being recited is what should be keenly accessed.

And even if there exist not verse of the Quran and hadith for group adhkar, the hadith reported by Abu Tha'laba (as highlighted above) will always come handy to defend it handsomely.

ChristianNorth:

Oga, you can't explain the words of Umar away through a senseless apologetics. He clearly called his innovation as bidah and you are trying to cover up with poor defence.

I believe Shia offers the purest form of Islam.

Yes, Shia are closest to the ChristianNorth!

AlBaqir:


Unfortunately, you have looked at the hadith from one angle only. From the other angle, another hadith did not even bring that dalil that "I'm afraid it might turn obligatory for you". For a fact, I believe that part was fabricated by hadith forgers to justify Umar's BID'AT. Sahabah were not that stupid and daft not to discern fard from recommended salat. Even my 5 year old daughter knew that clearly.


# The dalil of the second hadith which is true and make more sense than the first was, "you people persist this salat be in jamaah, go home and pray it FOR SALAT (nawafil) PRAYED AT HOME INDIVIDUALLY EXCEPT FARD SALAT IS BETTER".

Are you saying "is better" is limited to that time or the "better" will continue to be till qiyamat?

Yet, Umar bold recognized this when he said, "What good Bid'at this is; BUT the one they sleep (then wake) and pray is better than this". Umar never argued based on the fact that people will misunderstood it for fard salat.

well, I guess your position is more about praying nawafil at home. That's not much of problem. But did nabi forbid praying naflat in the masjid?. The answer is no. Praying at home is only recommendation. If it is forbidden, then why do we pray tahiyatul masjid upon entering mosque before sitting down?.


Let me be clear, I never in my entire life in Nigeria prayed taraweeh outside my home. We prayed at home in congregation for the most part. But i no reason whatsoever to condemn congregational taraweeh. There are instances where ahadith support praying taraweeh in congregation as well.



al-Tirmidhi (806) narrated that Abu Dharr (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever prays qiyaam – i.e., Taraweeh – with the imam until he finishes, it will be recorded as if he spent the whole night in prayer.”



You may want to dispute taraweeh is not Qiyama layl. But that's not my point. My only here is this Hadith enjoins congregational nawafil salat. Taraweeh is optional salat.


I have no problem with praying taraweeh at home or in the masjid. But I understand praying naflat at home is substantiated. Recall our baba prayed naflat at home. Only for this reason you have point. But to say it is forbidden to offer taraweeh in the masjid, this is off.


The whole idea behind offering nawafil at home is so as not to turn our homes to graveyards.

AlBaqir:
# Introduction
 
Tarawih as per Ahlu as-Sunnah (Sunni)’s belief and practice simply refer to supererogatory prayer (nawafil) prayed at night (immediately or some munutes) after salat al-Ishai during the holy month of Ramadan.
 
The majority’s view in the Sunni world is that it is a part of the Sunnah of the Prophet. Indeed, this claim is what makes it highly controversial.


# Genesis of Tarawih

Naturally, the Prophet used to observe Qiyam al-layl (late night payer) after being made obligatory for him by his Lord (see: Surat al-Isra:79; sura al-Muzammil: 1- 4). While this special prayer was only enjoined and made obligatory upon the Prophet, it is optional for his Ummah (followers, community). This was the reason why the Prophet used to pray it alone in the middle of the night.

During the holy month of Ramadan, the Prophet continued this routine act of praying the obligatory Qiyam al-layl. Alas, an incident occurred whereby certain number of his companions found him praying and stood behind him to pray (without his verbal approval for 3 days).

Prophet later disbanded the congregations urging them to pray the supererogatory prayer individually. In fact, he retorted at a point:

 " You are still insisting (on your deed, i.e. Tarawih prayer in the mosque in congregations) that I thought that this prayer (Tarawih) might become obligatory on you.  SO YOU PEOPLE, OFFER THIS PRAYER AT YOUR HOMES, FOR THE BEST PRAYER OF A PERSON IS THE ONE WHICH HE OFFERS AT HOME, EXCEPT THE COMPULSORY  (CONGREGATIONAL) PRAYERS".

Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 6113
In-book reference : Book 78, Hadith 140
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 8, Book 73, Hadith 134
 https://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/78/140

Yep. I can say it has become a routine for you to repeat some issues on a yearly basis with additional twists and more sophistry...Be that as it may, the truth would always be evident, no matter how many lies being spread among the Muslims....

Qiyamu layl is indeed obligatory on the Prophet (SAW), but supererogatory on the Ummah, it is the fact! Again, Allah (SWT) stated the duration for this prayer in the Qur'an thus:

"O you who wraps himself [in clothing],
Arise [to pray] the night, except for a little -
Half of it - or subtract from it a little
Or add to it, and recite the Qur'an with measured recitation."

So the question now arises, when does the night starts, and when does it end?! How do one pray the night prayer, half of it, subtract a little or add to half of the night?!

Again, did the Muslims during the time of the Prophet (SAW) not also engage in this qiyamu layl?! For what would have prompted them to come join the Prophet (SAW) when they saw him observing the qiyamu layl during Ramadan?!

The Prophet (SAW) gave a cogent reason for not allowing the companions to join him in this qiyamu layl in Ramadan, telling them to pray it in their houses lest it becomes compulsory on them to pray it in the mosque and in congregation!

This statement of the Prophet (SAW) did not in anyway make congregational qiyamu layl in Ramadan forbidden, nor bid'ah, rather a mercy upon the ummah!

So we can establish from the above,
1. The Prophet (SAW) prayed qiyamu layl in the month of Ramadan
2. The Prophet led a congregation of qiyamu layl in the month of Ramadan
3. The companions observed qiyamu layl in the month of Ramadan
4. The Prophet (SAW) didn't want qiyamu layl made obligatory on the Ummah so he discontinued the congregation in the mosque
5. Praying qiyamu layl at home is the best and this does not mean praying it in the mosque is forbidden!

AlBaqir:

# CALIPH UMAR'S INVENTION

A decade (or more) after the death of the Prophet, the second Caliph Umar ibn al-khattab  (after salat al-Ishai) invented what is today known and practice as "tarawih".

When the Caliph saw people praying individually inside the mosque, he gathered them under one Imam; hence, tarawih started. Then, he said:

 "What an excellent BID’A (i.e. innovation in religion) THIS IS; BUT the prayer which they do not perform, but sleep at its time is better than the one they are offering.”

 Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 2010
In-book reference : Book 31, Hadith 3
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 3, Book 32, Hadith 227
 https://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/31/3


And the reporter further interpret the saying of the Caliph to bury any misinterpretation. The reporter says, “He meant the prayer in the last part of the night. (In those days) people used to pray in the early part of the night”.


 Observe, the Caliph never called this action of his “Sunnah of the Prophet”, rather he called it what it is “Bid’ah (innovation in religion).  To further emphasis it is Bid’ah, he highlighted that the Sunnah of the Prophet (where you observe the qiyam al-layl  in the middle of the night after waking up from sleep) is far better than what he invented (where under his instructions people observed the prayer in congregations before it’s specified time).

This statement of the Caliph never deter the Ahlu as-Sunnah from all sort of excuses: that he did not meant BID'AH, and that what he did was to revive the "Sunnah" of the Prophet which he (the Prophet) feared might turned obligatory.

Now let us go back to the Qur'an, where Allah (SWT) instructed the Prophet (SAW) to observe qiyamu layl...
"O you who wraps himself [in clothing],
Arise [to pray] the night, except for a little -
Half of it - or subtract from it a little
Or add to it, and recite the Qur'an with measured recitation." (Q73:1-4)

It is established that qiyamu layl as the word connotes, is a prayer observed at night. Of course, this would be after Isha prayers. There is no restriction as to when one must observe this prayer with regards to the night except for after observing Isha prayers, thus what is established is the best of time as exemplified by the Prophet (SAW) which is later part of the night!

According to the narration, people were already observing their qiyamu layl when Umar (ra) met them, some individually, and others in small congregation. All Umar (ra) did was to bring them under one reciter, and he (ra), understanding the sunnah, indicated the best time for observing the qiyamu layl, as being in the later part of the night...

It is pertinent to note that:
1. Prayers, both obligatory and supererogatory generally have durations, the prescribed time which include the best time to observe them and also the time which it is forbidden.
2. There is absolutely nothing wrong in observing the prayers at the prescribed time, even if it doesn't fall at the best time.
3. Umar (ra) did not introduce any new form of prayers, it was still the same qiyamu layl that was observed with the Prophet (SAW)
4. Umar's bid'ah was to make them stand behind one Imam, rather than them being in the mosque and observing the qiyamu layl individually or in small groups.
5. Umar (ra) emphasized the best time to observe qiyamu layl according to the sunnah of the Prophet (SAW).

Empiree:

al-Tirmidhi (806) narrated that Abu Dharr (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever prays qiyaam – i.e., Taraweeh – with the imam until he finishes, it will be recorded as if he spent the whole night in prayer.”



You may want to dispute taraweeh is not Qiyama layl. But that's not my point. My only here is this Hadith enjoins congregational nawafil salat.

Here again is the full hadith of the part you posted:


Ibn Khuzaymah also documents:

Narrated Jubayr b. Nufayr al-Hadrami, from Abu Dharr:

“We fasted along with the Prophet, peace be upon him, in Ramadan, and he did NOT lead us in qiyam al-layl until the 23rd night of the month. He led us in qiyam al-layl until one-third of the night passed. Then, he did not lead us in qiyam al-layl on the 24th night, and he led us in qiyam al-layl on the 25th night until midnight passed. So, I said, “O Messenger of Allāh, peace be upon him, if only we could carry on for the rest of this night of ours.” He said: “Whosoever does qiyam al-layl with the Imām until he finishes, the qiyam of a whole night will be written for him.” Then, [u]he did not lead us in prayer until [/u]the 27th night of the month. So, he led us in qiyam al-layl on the 27th night and he gathered his family and his wives. He led us in qiyam al-layl until we feared that we would miss al-falah.” I said: “What is al-falah.” He said: “The suhur.”[5]

Shaykh al-A’zami comments: Its chain is sahih.


# Today's tarawih is first not Qiyam al-layl as Sunni especially the salafi continuously try to smuggle it in. Alhamdulillah you agreed with that unless you change your mind. Tarawih is nothing but Umar ibn al-khattab's Bid'at.


# Now observe the hadith closely especially the underlined: Prophet limited the congregations of Qiyam al-layl prayers in Ramadan to just 3 days: 23rd, 25th and 27th. And that was done for the purpose of seeking laylat al-qadr and no more no less. Again, it was done in the middle of the night NEVER after Ishai for 29 or 30 days that Sunni engaged in today.

# Why is it difficult to adhere to what Prophet did and enjoined? Why following Bid'at? Why all the back and forth twist?

We know from the traditions that some nawafil are only valid in congregations: salat of the two al-Eids. And we equally know as you've point out that nawafil of tahiyat al-masjid is rather said in the mosque. The fact however remains that those were qayd (exceptions). Tarawih or Qiyam al-layl in congregations were not part of those exceptions except for that specific 3 days. Were other night to be said in congregations as well, the Prophet won't hesitate to do so.

AlBaqir:
HOW THE PROPHET ACTUALLY OBSERVED THE PURPORTED TARAWIH

Interestingly, contrary the aforementioned hadiths, there are few other Ahlu as-Sunnah’s hadith which suggested that the Prophet did led Qiyam al-layl in congregation on another occasion but with few stringent conditions. 

Ahlu as-Sunnah observe their tarawih for 29 or 30 nights (which starts immediately or some minutes after salat al-Ishai) in congregations contrary to what the report said on how the Prophet observed it.

Imam Ibn Khuzaymah documents:

Narrated Nu’aym b. Ziyad Abu Talhah al-Anmari:



I heard al-Nu’man b. Bashir saying on the pulpit of Hims: “We prayed qiyam al-layl with the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, in the month of Ramadan, on the 23rd night till one-third of the night. Then, we prayed qiyam al-layl with him on the 25th night till midnight. Then, we prayed qiyam al-layl with him on the 27th night till we thought that we would miss al-falah; and we used to call it the suhur (i.e. early morning meal in Ramadan).

Shaykh al-A’zami says: Its chain is hasan.


Ibn Khuzaymah also documents:

 Narrated Jubayr b. Nufayr al-Hadrami, from Abu Dharr:

“We fasted along with the Prophet, peace be upon him, in Ramadan, and he did NOT lead us in qiyam al-layl until the 23rd night of the month. He led us in qiyam al-layl until one-third of the night passed. Then, he did not lead us in qiyam al-layl on the 24th night, and he led us in qiyam al-layl on the 25th night until midnight passed. So, I said, “O Messenger of Allāh, peace be upon him, if only we could carry on for the rest of this night of ours.” He said: “Whosoever does qiyam al-layl with the Imām until he finishes, the qiyam of a whole night will be written for him.” Then, he did not lead us in prayer until the 27th night of the month. So, he led us in qiyam al-layl on the 27th night and he gathered his family and his wives. He led us in qiyam al-layl until we feared that we would miss al-falah.” I said: “What is al-falah.” He said: “The suhur.”[5]

Shaykh al-A’zami comments: Its chain is sahih.

So, the Prophet only led the Sahabah in qiyam al-layl on the 23rd, 25th and 27th nights of Ramadan. He did NOT lead them on any other night. Imam Ibn Khuzaymah himself mentions this point when he says:


"The Prophet, peace be upon him, limited praying qiyam al-layl with the people to only these three nights because of the presence of Laylat al-Qadr among them."


Moreover, we understand from the second hadith above that the phrase “Whosoever does qiyam al layl with the Imam until he finishes, the qiyam of a whole night will be written for him” – which Salafis often quote to justify tarawih – relates only to those three nights and nothing else.

Thus, what are the characteristics of the night prayers which the Messenger performed with the Sahabah? Here they are:

i. Reason: To attain Laylat al-Qadr.

ii. Type: Tahajjud (in line with the ḥadīth of al-Hajjaj b. ‘Amr al-Ansari, which indicates that the Messenger only prayed tahajjud in the nights and nothing else).

iii. Amount: 8 rak’ahs (according to an authentic Sunni hadith of Umm al-Muminin ‘Aishah; then, al-shaf’ and al-witr, making it 11 rak’at in total)[6].

iv. Method: Congregational.

v. Period: 23rd night of Ramadan till after one-third of the night; 25th night till after midnight; and 27th night till the time of suhur.


 vi. Place: Mosque.


With these facts in mind, please pay close attention to these words of Salafi Shaykh al-‘Uthaymin:

"Therefore, brothers: No act of ‘ibadah is accepted except with the fulfilment of two fundamental conditions: one of them is sincerity to Allah, and the other is imitation of the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him. We already mentioned the proofs for that. We also say: verily, the imitation (of the Prophet) cannot be achieved except if it complies with the Divine Law in six matters, and they are: the reason, the type, the amount, the method, the period, and the place."[7]

This is actually interesting, at least, in the narrations presented here, the word qiyamu layl was used, hence, there is actually no difference between qiyamu layl and tarawih, which is also called tahajjud! Note if you may, the information about the duration of these nights, one third of the night, from midnight, and almost the whole night!

The narrations you have brought does not in any way limit qiyamu layl to just 3 nights, nor does it prohibit observing qiyamu layl in congregation in other nights! How you managed to get these conclusions is mind boggling, but I'm not surprised!

It is well established that the Prophet (SAW) admonished the companions to seek laylatu-l-qadr amongst the odd nights in the last ten days of Ramadan! This even gives credence to the fact that one can observe qiyamu layl in congregation! It should be noted that the Prophet (SAW) is not like any of us, and unlike us now who are not even sure if we started Ramadan on the proper date talk more of knowing the night of laylatu-l-qadr, it would be foolhardy to pick those days rather than observe it the whole last 10 days!

Praying qiyamu layl is prescribed by Allah (SWT), it is a supererogatory prayer, hence you observe as much as you can, even if it is just 2, and it can be performed in congregation as the Prophet (SAW) was reported to have observed it in congregation!

sino:

The narrations you have brought does not in any way limit qiyamu layl to just 3 nights, nor does it prohibit observing qiyamu layl in congregation in other nights! How you managed to get these conclusions is mind boggling, but I'm not surprised!
!

Perhaps this old sheik tagged "sheik al-Islam" was wrong:


Salafi Shaykh al-‘Uthaymin:

"Therefore, brothers: No act of ‘ibadah is accepted except with the fulfilment of two fundamental conditions: one of them is sincerity to Allah, and the other is imitation of the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him. We already mentioned the proofs for that. We also say: verily, the imitation (of the Prophet) cannot be achieved except if it complies with the Divine Law in six matters, and they are: the reason, the type, the amount, the method, the period, and the place."

I want to believe you will agree is right. So, no more story.

sino:

Note if you may, the information about the duration of these nights, one third of the night, from midnight, and almost the whole night!

"From midnight, and almost the whole night" is no doubt different from immediately or some minutes after salat al-Ishai when nobody has slept yet.

sino:

The narrations you have brought does not in any way limit qiyamu layl to just 3 nights, nor does it prohibit observing qiyamu layl in congregation in other nights! How you managed to get these conclusions is mind boggling, but I'm not surprised!

No One is arguing the tradition limited the Qiyam al-layl to just 3 nights, rather the limitation is in congregation, and that was for the purpose of night of majesty.


I just wonder why is this clear tradition is being smuggled to fit 29 or 30 days congregational tarawih immediately after Ishai or some minutes later?

Do you know more than the Prophet? Imitation of him is to do exactly what he does: that's the path of salaf al-Salih no more no less.

AlBaqir:
Another Salafi scholar, Shaykh Dr. Muhammad b. Sa’id Raslan al-Makki, in his fatwa reiterates these six criteria also.[8]

Let us compare this with what the Ahlu Sunnah and Salafi observe today :

i. Reason: the second Caliph established it (or whatever the reason is but obviously it is  not to seek Laylat al-Qadr, as laylat al-Qadr is only observed during 3 aforementioned nights).

Qiyamu layl was established by Allah (SWT) in the Qur'an and it is for worship, it is not suspended in the month of Ramdan. There are other activities one can engage in to seek laylatu-l-qadr such as reciting the Qur'an and dhikr!

AlBaqir:

ii. Type: Tarawih (in line with the ḥadīth of Abdur Rahman bin Abdul Qari) established by the Caliph

As above, the Caliph did not establish anything, it is qiyamu layl, as established by Allah (SWT) in the Qur'an!

AlBaqir:

iii. Amount: Between 10 - 20 rak’ahs excluding shaf’ and al-witr.

It is supererogatory, you can even observe 2!

AlBaqir:

iv. Method: Congregational.

Congregational qiyamu layl is established from the sunnah of the Prophet (SAW)

AlBaqir:

v. Period: the whole night of Ramadan (29 or 30 nights), immediately or some minutes after salat al- Ishai.

1. Qiyamu layl does not have limitations as to the number of nights, it is a standing act of worship, it continues all year round!
2. It is called the night prayer, it commences at night, after Isha prayers have been observed. According to the Qur'an and the narrations you have brought, you can even pray more than half of the night!

AlBaqir:

vi. Place: Mosque.

It is established from the sunnah that the Prophet (SAW) prayed qiyamu layl in the mosque!

AlBaqir:

We ask how is this practice replicate the Prophet’s sunnah?

I ask, how does the above responses of mine negate the sunnah of the Prophet (SAW)?!

AlBaqir:

Conclusion
It is crystal clear the Prophet never observed qiyam al-layl or tarawih immediately or some minutes after salat al-Ishai. Likewise, he never offered it in congregations for 29 or 30 nights of Ramadan. Rather he constantly offered his supererogatory prayer (qiyam al-layl) individually in the middle of the night with the exception of 23rd, 25th and 27th nights which he offered in congregations. This is what is proven in line with the traditions of Ahlu as-Sunnah. Therefore, it is either the Ahlu as-Sunnah follows this practice of the Prophet or continue with the Bid’at (innovation in religion) established by the Caliph Umar ibn al-khattab. Obviously the latter cannot be smuggled into the first.

What is crystal clear is the fact that qiyamu layl is a supererogatory act of worship, it is established in the sunnah, and observing it individually or in congregation in the Masjid is permissible. The standards of Ahlu sunnah which is the Qur'an and Sunnah, does not in any way prohibit the observance in congregation in the Masjid, 10 -20 raka'aat, and after salatu-l-Isha! Again, Umar (ra) did not establish any different prayers from qiyamu layl of the Prophet (SAW), all what he did was to congregate all those observing the qiyamu layl in the Masjid behind a singe reciter!

AlBaqir:


"From midnight, and almost the whole night" is no doubt different from immediately or some minutes after salat al-Ishai when nobody has slept yet.

The question begging for answer is when does night starts?! Is there a narration that states that one must sleep before observing qiyamu layl?!

AlBaqir:

No One is arguing the tradition limited the Qiyam al-layl to just 3 nights, rather the limitation is in congregation, and that was for the purpose of night of majesty.


I just wonder why is this clear tradition is being smuggled to fit 29 or 30 days congregational tarawih immediately after Ishai or some minutes later?

Do you know more than the Prophet? Imitation of him is to do exactly what he does: that's the path of salaf al-Salih no more no less.

There is no where in the reports that suggests that congregation for qiyamu layl is prohibited except for the three nights, moreover, the reason for discontinuing the congregation by the Prophet (SAW) is well established, which is for it not to be made obligatory on every muslim!

Where the issue of the question which is well known to me i.e "do you know more than the Prophet (SAW)? would arise only if the Prophet (SAW) never observed the qiyamu layl in congregation to start with!

Imitation of the Prophet (SAW) is the best practice, but when it comes to supererogatory prayers there are allowances to do as one is capable of doing, and this is also an established sunnah!

AlBaqir:







Dear brother, all bid'at in religion are misguidance and will lead straight to hell as the Prophet clearly said. What people especially the salafi failed to understand is the definition of bid'at and conditions for something to be tag "Bid'at. Rather they tag everything "new" bid'at. What is not bid'at is not bid'at despite the fact that Prophet or sahabah never practice it or not mentioned specifically in the Quran.

I totally agree with this. Not all practices not done by the Prophet are bidiah, but the Allu sunnah say there are good and bad bidiah. I believe what you mean by introducing a good new practice is what they call good bidiah.

sino:


So we can establish from the above,
1. The Prophet (SAW) prayed qiyamu layl in the month of Ramadan
2. The Prophet led a congregation of qiyamu layl in the month of Ramadan
3. The companions observed qiyamu layl in the month of Ramadan
4. The Prophet (SAW) didn't want qiyamu layl made obligatory on the Ummah so he discontinued the congregation in the mosque
5. Praying qiyamu layl at home is the best and this does not mean praying it in the mosque is forbidden!

That No 5 point is, in all honesty, the right view. Praying congregational qiyamul layl in the masjid can't be haram. It may be less rewarding, though, not haram.

Good to see your inputs on Nairaland once again, sino. A brilliant man you are

This no5 is my line of argument now.

5. Praying qiyamu layl at home is the best and this does not mean praying it in the mosque is forbidden!

I can't agree with albaqir for saying it is forbidden. Haba! That's why I said his choice of word was too heavy. It means we are wasting time all the centuries for praying taraweeh in congregation in the masjid?


Another point is, Sino acknowledged Sunnah is better here. That's, praying nawafil(taraweeh) at home rather than masjid. I have no problem with this at all. What I have problem with is, people who shout "Quran and Sunnah" up and down, especially masjid where I pray, Imam always comes up with this every jummah condemning bidia. He says "will you give up what is better for what is less than quality". Yet, taraweeh is congregated in his masjid. This is why I said all this back and forth hunts Alhusunnah too.


This imam in question is very strict on what he considers Sunnah and bidia. So I wonder why he doesn't adhere to what is better (taraweeh in the masjid or taraweeh in the house).

Congregational Taraweeh as it is done today in the masjid was by the virtues of ijma (of scholars) as acknowledged by islamqa.


As albaqir successfully argued his way out in this topic, if he uses the same approach on other practice (s) of Shia, it will hunt him too bcuz he strictly adheres to definition of bidia. That's bidiah is bidiah, good or bad leads astray according to him. This is exactly what Salafi imam where I pray says too.


All of us are full of double standards.

aadoiza:

I totally agree with this. Not all practices not done by the Prophet are bidiah, but the Allu sunnah say there are good and bad bidiah. I believe what you mean by introducing a good new practice is what they call good bidiah.


That No 5 point is, in all honesty, the right view. Praying congregational qiyamul layl in the masjid can't be haram. It may be less rewarding, though, not haram.

Good to see your inputs on Nairaland once again, sino. A brilliant man you are

There wouldn't have been an issue with regards to this if not that it has to do with sectarian predispositions.

May Allah continue to guide us and make us better Muslims, ameen.

Empiree:
This no5 is my line of argument now.





I can't agree with albaqir for saying it is forbidden. Haba! That's why I said his choice of word was too heavy. It means we are wasting time all the centuries for praying taraweeh in congregation in the masjid?


Another point is, Sino acknowledged Sunnah is better here. That's, praying nawafil(taraweeh) at home rather than masjid. I have no problem with this at all. What I have problem with is, people who shout "Quran and Sunnah" up and down, especially masjid where I pray, Imam always comes up with this every jummah condemning bidia. He says "will you give up what is better for what is less than quality". Yet, taraweeh is congregated in his masjid. This is why I said all this back and forth hunts Alhusunnah too.


This imam in question is very strict on what he considers Sunnah and bidia. So I wonder why he doesn't adhere to what is better (taraweeh in the masjid or taraweeh in the house).

Congregational Taraweeh as it is done today in the masjid was by the virtues of ijma (of scholars) as acknowledged by islamqa.


As albaqir successfully argued his way out in this topic, if he uses the same approach on other practice (s) of Shia, it will hunt him too bcuz he strictly adheres to definition of bidia. That's bidiah is bidiah, good or bad leads astray according to him. This is exactly what Salafi imam where I pray says too.


All of us are full of double standards.

The problem is when you still see praying qiyamul layl in congregation at the masjid as being bid'ah...It is not! This much has been established in the narrations presented by the OP.

Any day any time, the acts which the Prophet (SAW) did, are the best and should be followed, since congregational qiyamu layl can be established from him (SAW) and the reason for discontinuing it as he did was for it not to be made obligatory for the ummah, then I see no double standards here...

This cannot be compared to say for example "nafilah oru eni", this is definitely bid'ah, even though good intentions brought this into existence, it is still bid'ah.

sino:


There wouldn't have been an issue with regards to this if not that it has to do with sectarian predispositions.

Absolutely spot on.

sino:

May Allah continue to guide us and make us better Muslims, ameen.

Ameen

sino:


There wouldn't have been an issue with regards to this if not that it has to do with sectarian predispositions.

that's it. I have always said this

Empiree:


Another point is, Sino acknowledged Sunnah is better here. That's, praying nawafil(taraweeh) at home rather than masjid. I have no problem with this at all. What I have problem with is, people who shout "Quran and Sunnah" up and down, especially masjid where I pray, Imam always comes up with this every jummah condemning bidiah. He says "will you give up what is better for what is less than quality".


Yet, taraweeh is congregated in his masjid. This is why I said all this back and forth hunts Alhusunnah too.

That emboldened statement is our biggest problem.

This imam in question is very strict on what he considers Sunnah and bidia. So I wonder why he doesn't adhere to what is better (taraweeh in the masjid or taraweeh in the house).

A thing I have also wondered about our salafi imams here as well. And dem go dey shout sunnah upandan.

As albaqir successfully argued his way out in this topic, if he uses the same approach on other practice (s) of Shia, it will hunt him too bcuz he strictly adheres to definition of bidia. That's bidiah is bidiah, good or bad leads astray according to him. This is exactly what Salafi imam where I pray says too.

I think Albaqir is purposely doing this to expose the double standard therein.

All of us are full of double standards.

Some no go wan agree with this. Sectarianism has consumed the better part of some people's brains.

aadoiza:
I think Albaqir is purposely doing this to expose the double standard therein.

sure did

Empiree:

As albaqir successfully argued his way out in this topic, if he uses the same approach on other practice (s) of Shia, it will hunt him too bcuz he strictly adheres to definition of bidia. That's bidiah is bidiah, good or bad leads astray according to him. This is exactly what Salafi imam where I pray says too.

All of us are full of double standards.

I have clearly submitted my firm understanding and believe about meaning and requirements of Bid'at. So, how would I ever be hunted by that like the salafi?

aadoiza:

I think Albaqir is purposely doing this to expose the double standard therein.



Some no go wan agree with this. Sectarianism has consumed the better part of some people's brains.

Purposely? Why would you think like that? I am not comparing Sunnism and Shiism here brother. Tarawih is an outright bid'at in Shi'i fiqh. Even the so called 23rd, 25th and 27th nights that Sunni hadith said Prophet prayed qiyam al-layl in congregations is not accepted in Shi'i school. Yet, I brought that option based on what Sunni documented. Unfortunately here you accusing me of doing it deliberately out of sectarianism. Subhanallah.

On one hand, you yourself clearly stated you don't buy the laughable "linguistic" excuse of Sunni/Salafi scholars saying the "Bid'at" used by Umar is just in a linguistical term; yet, you still believe there is nothing wrong in that Bid'at. Which way are you going ganngan brother?

I'm NOT doing anything deliberately out of sectarianism o.

AlBaqir:


I have clearly submitted my firm understanding and believe about meaning and requirements of Bid'at. So, how would I ever be hunted by that like the salafi?






Purposely? Why would you think like that? I am not comparing Sunnism and Shiism here brother. Tarawih is an outright bid'at in Shi'i fiqh. Even the so called 23rd, 25th and 27th nights that Sunni hadith said Prophet prayed qiyam al-layl in congregations is not accepted in Shi'i school. Yet, I brought that option based on what Sunni documented. Unfortunately here you accusing me of doing it deliberately out of sectarianism. Subhanallah.

On one hand, you yourself clearly stated you don't buy the laughable "linguistic" excuse of Sunni/Salafi scholars saying the "Bid'at" used by Umar is just in a linguistical term; yet, you still believe there is nothing wrong in that Bid'at. Which way are you going ganngan brother?

I'm NOT doing anything deliberately out of sectarianism o.

No no no... Doing it "purposely" here as I wrote above should be seen in a positive light. As in you're making emphasis on this to expose the embedded hypocrisy.
I think this very hadith may be the reason some hausa masaajid here in Lagos don't observe taraweeh immediately after ishai. They observe theirs at midnight, I think. Some don't even observe it at all and probably do qiyamul layl individually much later in the night. In sha Allah I will follow suit. However, I still don't want to believe those observing it in jammah are astray.

aadoiza:


That emboldened statement is our biggest problem.




A thing I have also wondered about our salafi imams here as well. And dem go dey shout sunnah upandan.



I think Albaqir is purposely doing this to expose the double standard therein.



Some no go wan agree with this. Sectarianism has consumed the better part of some people's brains.

During my university days salafis almost destroyed the Muslim community, they hijacked MSSN, condemned group zikr, condemned muslims greeting each other jumah Mubarak they said the sahabas never did it.

This did not go down well with the lecturers, the conflict got to the point that mosques in OAU halls of residence are still closed to this day.

Sultan of sokoto, Etsu of Nupe, MUSWAN had to step in to relief tension.