₦airaland Forum

Welcome, Guest: Join Nairaland / LOGIN! / Trending / Recent / New
Stats: 2,257,591 members, 4,938,690 topics. Date: Thursday, 23 May 2019 at 04:05 AM

Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness - Religion (2) - Nairaland

Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness (2084 Views)

Is It Right To Be A Christian And Join Secret Society?; Pastor Shares Photos / "How Can One Witness To A Jehovah's Witness?" / Female Jehovah's Witness Knocks At Man's House, He Opens The Door While Unclad (2) (3) (4)

(1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10) ... (19) (Reply) (Go Down)

Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by shadeyinka(m): 10:06am On May 13
Maximus69:
NO! I don't think that is necessary since it's not in one day that each of us accumulated what we're saying now.
It will take a longer time to conclude and that is based on what each person has resolved in his heart. Remember it is not a CHALLENGE but a tactful discuss on how far each person is able to correlate what he has read in the Bible from Genesis to Revelations and of what benefit is it to those we're sharing our views!
The motive of this is to share thoughts and leave each person with his conscience to resolve in his heart whether what he is hearing is worthwhile. We're not to force our PERSONAL resolve on each other! smiley
Ok! But I had asked a few questions in those posts . That's the ones I am refering to.

I may not respond to your answers if you prefer that.
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by shadeyinka(m): 10:12am On May 13
Maximus69:
That is why i said ONE question at a time! To help in treating one issue and not digress!
So which question would you like me to address first?

Quoted:

Can you please briefly support these with explanations and scriptures
1. Three rebels who started their evil inclination!
2. When God promised that some humans will join the rebellion as part of the seed of satan!
3. Gods heavenly organisation who's child happens to be Jesus

You ended up saying names were written (not from the beginning of rebellion as you claimed) but after Jesus started His ministry on earth. Can you please reconcile?
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by Maximus69: 10:14am On May 13
shadeyinka:

Ok! But I had asked a few questions in those posts . That's the ones I am refering to.

I may not respond to your answers if you prefer that.
You need not respond to my answers if you feel like but if you also feel like presenting your own viewpoints on the question it's a welcome development after all we learn everyday!
It's just that when humans notice certain things that eludes their grasp, they'll note it SECRETLY in their hearts!
Let's continue to make it a friendly chat, so it's NOT a competition neither is there a winner or looser! smiley

1 Like

Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by shadeyinka(m): 10:25am On May 13
Maximus69:
You need not respond to my answers if you feel like but if you also feel like presenting your own viewpoints on the question it's a welcome development after all we learn everyday!
It's just that when humans notice certain things that eludes their grasp, they'll note it SECRETLY in their hearts!
Let's continue to make it a friendly chat, so it's NOT a competition neither is there a winner or looser! smiley
Ok! I guess my questions raised up some issue to think about. That's ok.

Now my first question:
Jesus said:
John 3:3: "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Also reinforced by Peter
1Pet 1:23 : "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever."

I understand that your church teach that only 144,000 people can be born again (I hope I am correct). So,
1. Are your Born Again?
2. How did you get Born Again?

1 Like

Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by Maximus69: 10:42am On May 13
shadeyinka:


Quoted:

Can you please briefly support these with explanations and scriptures
1. Three rebels who started their evil inclination!
2. When God promised that some humans will join the rebellion as part of the seed of satan!
3. Gods heavenly organisation who's child happens to be Jesus

You ended up saying names were written (not from the beginning of rebellion as you claimed) but after Jesus started His ministry on earth. Can you please reconcile?

(1) The three rebels who started with their evil inclinations were Satan, Eve and Adam. Genesis 3
These three persons wanted more than what God gave them so they decided to reject his rule and began deciding what is right and wrong[good and bad] on their own!
(2) After Satan have succeeded in turning Adam and Eve against their heavenly father[God], God foretold that there will continue to be ENMITY between all those who followed Satan's trait and those who want to remain loyal to God! Genesis 3:15
What God foretold started happening quickly on earth as Cain killed Abel, but another spectacular event was when some angels were attracted to leave their God's given assignment in heaven only to come and start having SEX with female humans! Genesis 6:1-5
Soon Satan got followers both in heaven and on earth, all these are part of Satan's seed! John 8:44 compared to Revelations 12:7 Satan had no angels of his own but those who joined him later in rebelling against God!
(3) The woman mentioned at Genesis 3:15 wasn't Eve but God's organization of loyal ones, God views loyal organization like a FAITHFUL wife! Isaiah 54:5
So all heavenly host of loyal ones makes up that woman, but since Jesus who came down from there had faithful and loyal followers who stuck to him throughout his life and ministry, he also married 144,000 faithful humans as a group to join God's loyal heavenly organization! Revelation 21:2
No human could measure up to the standard of that organization [Ronans 3:23 compared to Psalms 49:7-10 ] until Jesus came to sacrifice his perfect life to buy humans from earth to go and join God's heavenly organization[Revelations 14:3] they're in other words referred to as the BORN AGAINS! John 3:3
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by Maximus69: 10:55am On May 13
shadeyinka:

Ok! I guess my questions raised up some issue to think about. That's ok.

Now my first question:
Jesus said:
John 3:3: "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Also reinforced by Peter
1Pet 1:23 : "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever."

I understand that your church teach that only 144,000 people can be born again (I hope I am correct). So,
1. Are your Born Again?
2. How did you get Born Again?
The truth is that the REAL born agains DON'T disclose their identity, you can't hear them say 'i am born again'
It wasn't by their will that they became born again! Matthew 20:20-23
So whether they served faithfully as Christians or not does not make them a born again, it's like when we were born here on earth, none of us could determine that we only found ourselves here on earth. The same could be said of the born agains, that's why many of the first century Christians who presumed they're also born again without the visitation of God's holy spirit died out of presumption! 1Corinthians 11:27-30
Please i told you initially NOT to ask any question with regards to ORGANIZATION! So please let's restrict our discuss on personal conviction! smiley

1 Like

Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by shadeyinka(m): 11:16am On May 13
Maximus69:
(1) The three rebels who started with their evil inclinations were Satan, Eve and Adam. Genesis 3
These three persons wanted more than what God gave them so they decided to reject his rule and began deciding what is right and wrong[good and bad] on their own!
(2) After Satan have succeeded in turning Adam and Eve against their heavenly father[God], God foretold that there will continue to be ENMITY between all those who followed Satan's trait and those who want to remain loyal to God! Genesis 3:15
What God foretold started happening quickly on earth as Cain killed Abel, but another spectacular event was when some angels were attracted to leave their God's given assignment in heaven only to come and start having SEX with female humans! Genesis 6:1-5
Soon Satan got followers both in heaven and on earth, all these are part of Satan's seed! John 8:44 compared to Revelations 12:7 Satan had no angels of his own but those who joined him later in rebelling against God!
(3) The woman mentioned at Genesis 3:15 wasn't Eve but God's organization of loyal ones, God views loyal organization like a FAITHFUL wife! Isaiah 54:5
So all heavenly host of loyal ones makes up that woman, but since Jesus who came down from there had faithful and loyal followers who stuck to him throughout his life and ministry, he also married 144,000 faithful humans as a group to join God's loyal heavenly organization! Revelation 21:2
No human could measure up to the standard of that organization [Ronans 3:23 compared to Psalms 49:7-10 ] until Jesus came to sacrifice his perfect life to buy humans from earth to go and join God's heavenly organization[Revelations 14:3] they're in other words referred to as the BORN AGAINS! John 3:3
Like I said, I wouldn't ask further questions on this post but I strongly believe your interpretation is wrong. Very very wrong.
1. Satan was a rebel, Eve was decieved and as such isn't a rebel.
Satan didn't rebel alone there were the "sons of God" who slept with the daughters of men. Those who are reserved in chains and darkness till the judgement time.

Gen 3:11-13: "And he said, Who told thee that thou wast Unclad? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat."

Gen 6:1-2: "And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God [/b]saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose."

Rather what happened was that they lost their Righteousness and became slaves to sin.

2. Genesis 3:15 could not be refering to the Woman in revelation. It it was, how did you link up the two scriptures. There are so many times "woman" was mentioned in the bible. There must be a rule of biblical interpretations you are using.

[b]Gen 3:15
: "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

Else, note that the "WOMAN" gave Adam of the Tree!

Revelation 12:7–10
7. Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

1 Like

Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by shadeyinka(m): 11:48am On May 13
Maximus69:

The truth is that the REAL born agains DON'T disclose their identity, you can't hear them say 'i am born again'
It wasn't by their will that they became born again! Matthew 20:20-23
So whether they served faithfully as Christians or not does not make them a born again, it's like when we were born here on earth, none of us could determine that we only found ourselves here on earth. The same could be said of the born agains, that's why many of the first century Christians who presumed they're also born again without the visitation of God's holy spirit died out of presumption! 1Corinthians 11:27-30

Please i told you initially NOT to ask any question with regards to ORGANIZATION! So please let's restrict our discuss on personal conviction! smiley
It was just a question!
The Question: Are you Born Again could only have three answers;
Yes I am!
No I am not!
I am not sure!

I guess your understanding of who born again or how to be born again is incomplete.

Jesus Himself explained what this concept is:


John 3:3:
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again , he cannot see the kingdom of God."
I think I have discussed the kingdom of God in earlier post. A person who is Not born again cannot even see the Kingdom of God lest even partake in it.

Jesus's explanation:

John 3:14-16:
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up : That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

The word whosoever is extremely important! Whosoever means ANYONE who believes!

Num 21:8-9:
"And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived."

Every One: Mean what it says not 144,000. Or what do you think?

The meaning: ANYONE who believes in God's solution to the problem of the poison of SIN in his life should look at "Gods Solution" and because "He Believes" shall be saved.

Luk 11:11-13:

"If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"

The Holy Spirit is given to them who ASK! What do you think?

The Holy Spirit is the SEAL of those who are Born Again (saved)

Eph 4:30:
"And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

Who do you think the scriptures is referring to as SEALED unto the day of redemption?

Eph 1:13
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation : in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise

John 6:27
"Labor not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed

The bible says we are not even saved by works of righteousness. It is by grace we've been saved through faith...

Eph 2:8-10:
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

The quoted verses in 1Cor 11:27-30 is dealing with those who eat the Lord's supper without discerning the body of Christ (eating casually/with no reverence). Please read the whole chapter.

1Cor 11:27-29:
"Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body."

Is that why you (maximus) don't take the Holy Communion?

I won't refer to your organisation again. But it's not that I don't know that your doctrine is that passed down from your organisation.


So, who are those who could be Born Again and sealed with the Holy Spirit? Is it everyone /anyone or a select group

Your comments on this before I ask the next question
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by shadeyinka(m): 11:58am On May 13
Me;
I got born again in my early secondary school.
I asked the Father to write my name in the Book of Life and seal me with His Holy Spirit.

According to His word:
Luk 11:13: "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"

John 6:37:
"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

I came to Him to ask: He is faithful to keep His words.

Rom 10:10-11:
"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."

With my heart I believed, with my mouth confessions made into salvation.


It is the Holy Spirit that remakes us into a new creature in Christ. He who is in Christ has a duty of OBEYING Him and Living according to the rules of righteousness!

The Thief of the right hand of Jesus said:
Remember me when you get to your Kingdom!

He asked
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by Maximus69: 1:23pm On May 13
shadeyinka:
Me;
I got born again in my early secondary school.
I asked the Father to write my name in the Book of Life and seal me with His Holy Spirit.

According to His word:
Luk 11:13: "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"

John 6:37:
"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

I came to Him to ask: He is faithful to keep His words.

Rom 10:10-11:
"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."

With my heart I believed, with my mouth confessions made into salvation.


It is the Holy Spirit that remakes us into a new creature in Christ. He who is in Christ has a duty of OBEYING Him and Living according to the rules of righteousness!

The Thief of the right hand of Jesus said:
Remember me when you get to your Kingdom!

He asked
Hmmm, thanks for the contribution.
Just as i have said earlier, it's not a competition neither a challenge but a friendly chat to know what you and i believe and what are the differences!
Well i won't say you're wrong because God's word in itself is powerful enough to reach hearts and help each person know within himself or herself that the person we're discussing with knows better than us! Hebrew 4:12
Notice the conversation between Jesus and a Samaritan woman whose beliefs contradicts each other but by the end herself and elders of a Samaritan village discovered that Jesus knows better! John 4:5-42
So don't worry about who is right or wrong for now, that should be left for each individual to reason from WITHIN himself! smiley
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by shadeyinka(m): 1:33pm On May 13
Maximus69:
Hmmm, thanks for the contribution.
Just as i have said earlier, it's not a competition neither a challenge but a friendly chat to know what you and i believe and what are the differences!
Well i won't say you're wrong because God's word in itself is powerful enough to reach hearts and help each person know within himself or herself that the person we're discussing with knows better than us! Hebrew 4:12
Notice the conversation between Jesus and a Samaritan woman whose beliefs contradicts each other but by the end herself and elders of a Samaritan village discovered that Jesus knows better! John 4:5-42
So don't worry about who is right or wrong for now, that should be left for each individual to reason from WITHIN himself! smiley
Any comment on the other post,?
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by Maximus69: 1:54pm On May 13
shadeyinka:

It was just a question.
So, who are those who could be Born Again and sealed with the Holy Spirit? Is it everyone /anyone or a select group

Your comments on this before I ask the next question
The first ever born again on the surface of the earth is Jesus himself!
He said they must be born of water[water baptism] and spirit[anointed of God's holy spirit]. John 3:3
Well after his baptism by John God's holy spirit landed on him like a dove from heaven and God confirmed that Jesus is his son! Matthew 3:16-17
None of those present got the sense of the dove landing on Jesus' head except John who happens to be the last prophet prior to the activities of the Messiah! John 3:25-33
The next group were chose at Pentecost 33ce when God's holy spirit came down from heaven upon 120 disciples and landed on each of them like tongues of fire! Act 2:1-4
Others were chosen at different times but one thing that's of significance is that they don't go about telling outsiders their position in God's arrangement just like their leader never wanted people to know his position by self acclamation! Matthew 16: 20 compared to Matthew 17:1-9
God's children aren't like Satan's world who are known for self acclamation of their position in the society. Jesus taught us to always humble ourselves [ Matthew 23:11] so even if they're part of that favoured group of rulers with Christ they won't disclose it to anyone, unlike a worldly politician who will start telling people while in another country his position in the political affairs of his country, God's own chosen ones will simply tell you 'i am a Christian'!
Imagine if Buhari or Saraki or any other politician from Nigeria should land in France and tell the security operatives their 'please just treat me exactly the same way you would treat a Nigerian because i am a Nigerian'! smiley
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by shadeyinka(m): 6:01pm On May 13
Maximus69:
The first ever born again on the surface of the earth is Jesus himself!
He said they must be born of water[water baptism] and spirit[anointed of God's holy spirit]. John 3:3
Well after his baptism by John God's holy spirit landed on him like a dove from heaven and God confirmed that Jesus is his son! Matthew 3:16-17
None of those present got the sense of the dove landing on Jesus' head except John who happens to be the last prophet prior to the activities of the Messiah! John 3:25-33
The next group were chose at Pentecost 33ce when God's holy spirit came down from heaven upon 120 disciples and landed on each of them like tongues of fire! Act 2:1-4
Others were chosen at different times but one thing that's of significance is that they don't go about telling outsiders their position in God's arrangement just like their leader never wanted people to know his position by self acclamation! Matthew 16: 20 compared to Matthew 17:1-9
God's children aren't like Satan's world who are known for self acclamation of their position in the society. Jesus taught us to always humble ourselves [ Matthew 23:11] so even if they're part of that favoured group of rulers with Christ they won't disclose it to anyone, unlike a worldly politician who will start telling people while in another country his position in the political affairs of his country, God's own chosen ones will simply tell you 'i am a Christian'!
Imagine if Buhari or Saraki or any other politician from Nigeria should land in France and tell the security operatives their 'please just treat me exactly the same way you would treat a Nigerian because i am a Nigerian'! smiley
If I get you clearly
1. The first born again is Jesus
2. Jesus was born again during his baptism
3. At penticost some people became born again
4. Some other people got born again later.

Before my next question on this , I want to ask you a question to clarify this (above if I summarised you well)

Do you have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside you? And if you do, when and How did it happen?
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by Maximus69: 6:29pm On May 13
shadeyinka:

If I get you clearly
1. The first born again is Jesus
2. Jesus was born again during his baptism
3. At penticost some people became born again
4. Some other people got born again later.

Before my next question on this , I want to ask you a question to clarify this (above if I summarised you well)

Do you have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside you? And if you do, when and How did it happen?
I thought it's my turn to ask but i'll address this one.
Well that is another question Jesus will NEVER answer so we don't feel obliged to answer as well! Mark 11:27-33
The question 'Do you have the holy spirit?' is tantamount to asking 'Is your ministry from God?'
Jesus taught us NEVER to ask such questions but to EXAMINE carefully the outcome of such ministry and it's adherents, this is the fruit that such a ministry produces! Matthew 7:15-20
Paul said if we can find the nine qualities he listed, then we shouldn't quote any law against such ministry! Galatians 5:22-23
So instead of asking if someone have the holy spirit we only need to notice the FRUITS or WORKS of such ministry, because according to James 'FAITH without WORKS is DEAD' James 2:26
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by shadeyinka(m): 6:57pm On May 13
Maximus69:
I thought it's my turn to ask but i'll address this one.
Well that is another question Jesus will NEVER answer so we don't feel obliged to answer as well! Mark 11:27-33
The question 'Do you have the holy spirit?' is tantamount to asking 'Is your ministry from God?'
Jesus taught us NEVER to ask such questions but to EXAMINE carefully the outcome of such ministry and it's adherents, this is the fruit that such a ministry produces! Matthew 7:15-20
Paul said if we can find the nine qualities he listed, then we shouldn't quote any law against such ministry! Galatians 5:22-23
So instead of asking if someone have the holy spirit we only need to notice the FRUITS or WORKS of such ministry, because according to James 'FAITH without WORKS is DEAD' James 2:26
I didn't know the Questions are to come sequentially. Because I still have quite a number of questions. However, my thoughts before you ask your own questions

Could Jesus have been the first person to be Born again?
NO!
From the definition of Christ, unless a man is Born Again, he cannot see the kingdom of God BUT
1. Christ Jesus was from Heaven before His ministry
John 3:13:
"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
If Jesus came down from heaven, He didn't need to be Born Again to see the kingdom
John 6:38:
"For I came down from heaven , not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me."
1Cor 15:47:
"The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven."

Hence Jesus didn't need to be born again
2. Salvation was compared to Moses lifting up the Serpent (Sacrifice of Christ) in the wilderness.
John 3:14:
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:" "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

No one could be born again until the Crucifixion of Christ. Hence Christ couldn't have been the first born again

3. If Jesus is the WORD OF GOD, how could he be born again by Himself at the point of Baptism?


1Pet 1:23: "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.

Before Jesus baptism, he was called the Son of God.
Luk 1:32:
"He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:"


OK! You are free to ask your questions! I'll be waiting.
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by Maximus69: 7:35pm On May 13
shadeyinka:

I didn't know the Questions are to come sequentially. Because I still have quite a number of questions. However, my thoughts before you ask your own questions
Could Jesus have been the first person to be Born again?
NO!
From the definition of Christ, unless a man is Born Again, he cannot see the kingdom of God BUT
1. Christ Jesus was from Heaven before His ministry
John 3:13:
"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
If Jesus came down from heaven, He didn't need to be Born Again to see the kingdom
John 6:38:
"For I came down from heaven , not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me."
1Cor 15:47:
"The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven."
Hence Jesus didn't need to be born again
2. Salvation was compared to Moses lifting up the Serpent (Sacrifice of Christ) in the wilderness.
John 3:14:
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:" "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."
No one could be born again until the Crucifixion of Christ. Hence Christ couldn't have been the first born again
3. If Jesus is the WORD OF GOD, how could he be born again by Himself at the point of Baptism?
1Pet 1:23: "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.
Before Jesus baptism, he was called the Son of God.
Luk 1:32:
"He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:"
OK! You are free to ask your questions! I'll be waiting.
Hmmm, It's well.
Jesus came from heaven yet he insisted that John baptise him because that is the first step of becoming a born again and he couldn't have been baptised by one of his own followers! Matthew 3:13-15
Later Jesus' followers started baptising people as the first step of becoming a born again! John 3:25-30
Jesus happens to be the first person to be baptised both by water and spirit![John 3:3]
He was confirmed on that day of his baptism as God spoke from heaven![Matthew 3:17]
He started his ministry as the first fruit of that kingdom on that very day![Matthew 4:14-15]
He always refer to himself as the 'son of man' since he lived in the flesh like us.
Heaven totally differs from the Kingdom of heaven, because the government comprises of Jesus and the 144,000! Revelation 14:1
Jesus always refer to the born agains as 'my brothers' because all of them were born by water and spirit just like himself! Matthew 25:40
It's only the born agains that can approach God and call out 'Abba father'! Mark 14:36 compared to Galatians 4:6
So that's why i concluded that he is the firstborn of those who are born by the spirit with heavenly hope and the covenant for a heavenly kingdom[government] since the angels aren't going to be part of that government except Jesus and his born again brothers!
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by Maximus69: 7:43pm On May 13
My question!
You said man has a beginning but NO end.
Please can you correlate that to what the Bible says at Proverbs 14:12,16:25
God also told Adam that if he eat from the forbidden fruit he will die! Genesis 2:16-17
Paul also said the wages of sin is death! Romans 6:23
At Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 God's word said death of man and beast is the same because both will seize to exist at death.
So now that Adam died, can we say he has NO end?
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by shadeyinka(m): 10:24pm On May 13
Maximus69:
Hmmm, It's well.
Jesus came from heaven yet he insisted that John baptise him because that is the first step of becoming a born again and he couldn't have been baptised by one of his own followers! Matthew 3:13-15
Later Jesus' followers started baptising people as the first step of becoming a born again! John 3:25-30
Jesus happens to be the first person to be baptised both by water and spirit![John 3:3]
He was confirmed on that day of his baptism as God spoke from heaven![Matthew 3:17]
He started his ministry as the first fruit of that kingdom on that very day![Matthew 4:14-15]
He always refer to himself as the 'son of man' since he lived in the flesh like us.
Heaven totally differs from the Kingdom of heaven, because the government comprises of Jesus and the 144,000! Revelation 14:1
Jesus always refer to the born agains as 'my brothers' because all of them were born by water and spirit just like himself! Matthew 25:40
It's only the born agains that can approach God and call out 'Abba father'! Mark 14:36 compared to Galatians 4:6
So that's why i concluded that he is the firstborn of those who are born by the spirit with heavenly hope and the covenant for a heavenly kingdom[government] since the angels aren't going to be part of that government except Jesus and his born again brothers!
Jesus is the First born: but First Born isn't the same thing as born again. I honestly think you are bending scriptures to suit your doctrines.
Jesus described being born again with reference to the Serpent in the wilderness.
John 3:14:
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:"
"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

Whosoever contradicts your doctrine also, whats the connection between the scripture above and being born again?

Check out this scripture addressed to the church of God:

1Cor 12:13:
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."
We ALL are baptized.....

We we believers are ALL Baptized into the Holy Spirit how come your doctrine says it's a select few?

Who are the ANNOINTED and SEALED ones in the scripture below?

2Cor 1:21-22:
"Now he which establisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us , and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."


Who is this scripture refering to?

2Cor 11:4: "For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."

How do people receive the Holy Spirit?

Gal 3:1-2:

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"

Gal 5:25:
"If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."

Eph 1:13-14:
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise , Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

We were even commanded to be FILLED with the Holy Spirit
Eph 5:18:
"And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;"

1Pet 1:1-2:
"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

If after all these Scriptures you still feel you are alienated from having the Holy Spirit as your SEAL, there is nothing else to say.



I think you may ask your question now.
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by shadeyinka(m): 10:25pm On May 13
Sorry, I just saw your question. I will reply shortly
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by shadeyinka(m): 11:25pm On May 13
Maximus69:
My question!
You said man has a beginning but NO end.
Please can you correlate that to what the Bible says at Proverbs 14:12,16:25
God also told Adam that if he eat from the forbidden fruit he will die! Genesis 2:16-17
Paul also said the wages of sin is death! Romans 6:23
At Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 God's word said death of man and beast is the same because both will seize to exist at death.
So now that Adam died, can we say he has NO end?

First, what is death?
Death simply means a DISCONNECTION or a SEPARATION!
A person physically dies when his soul and spirit is disconnected or Separated from his body.

The bible records three kinds of death
1. Physical Death:
This is the Disconnection or Separation of the Soul and Spirit from the Body
Eccl 9:4:
"For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion."
Gen 5:5:
"And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died."

2. Spiritual Death:
This is the Disconnection or Separation of the Spirit of God from a person.
Gen 2:17:
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Did Adam and Eve die the day they eat of the tree?
Rom 8:6:
"For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace."

To be carnally minded is to be Separated from the Spirit of God
Rom 6:23: "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

The wages of sin is Disconnection from God

Rom 8:6: "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace."

To be carnally minded is Disconnection from God

3. Second Death:
Eternal Disconnection or Separation of a person totally from God after resurrection of the dead. Such a person is thrown into the Lake of fire.

Rev 20:14:
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Rev 20:15: "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Now that I have explained the three kinds of death found in the scriptures, I will answer your questions.


You said man has a beginning but NO end.
Please can you correlate that to what the Bible says at Proverbs 14:12,16:25

The fact that man has a beginning is trivial. We can trace the origin on man to Adam and Eve.

Prov 14:12:
"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."

The Question is which of the kinds of death?
a. It cannot be physical death because even the saints die just like the sinners.
b. It could be Spiritual death or second death. Both fit into the text.

However, in context, death here means destruction, evil, disaster. That is why the bible says
Prov 3:5-7:
"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil."

Man exist forever:
a. The Righteous in paradise forever

John 14:16: "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever ;".

b. The Wicked in Lake of fire forever

Mat 25:46: "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

2Ths 1:9: "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

Jud 1:6: "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

Dan 12:2: "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."


Your second question:

God also told Adam that if he eat from the forbidden fruit he will die! Genesis 2:16-17


Spiritual Death...for they didn't die physically the day they eat of the tree.

Gen 2:17:
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Your third Question
Paul also said the wages of sin is death! Romans 6:23

Spiritual Death!

For even the saints die physically!

Your Fourth Question:

At Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 God's word said death of man and beast is the same because both will seize to exist at death.


Physical Death.

The physical death of humans and animals is completely alike.

Your Fifth Question:

So now that Adam died, can we say he has NO end?
Adam died physically just like Abraham died physically.

But the bible says:

Mar 12:26-27:
"And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err."

Dead people were given white robes to put on after they protested their murder by wicked men

Rev 6:10-11
: "And they cried with a loud voice , saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were , should be fulfilled."

I believe I've answered your questions
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by Maximus69: 5:56am On May 14
shadeyinka:


First, what is death?
Death simply means a DISCONNECTION or a SEPARATION!
A person physically dies when his soul and spirit is disconnected or Separated from his body.

The bible records three kinds of death
1. Physical Death:
This is the Disconnection or Separation of the Soul and Spirit from the Body
Eccl 9:4:
"For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion."
Gen 5:5:
"And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died."

2. Spiritual Death:
This is the Disconnection or Separation of the Spirit of God from a person.
Gen 2:17:
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Did Adam and Eve die the day they eat of the tree?
Rom 8:6:
"For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace."

To be carnally minded is to be Separated from the Spirit of God
Rom 6:23: "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

The wages of sin is Disconnection from God

Rom 8:6: "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace."

To be carnally minded is Disconnection from God

3. Second Death:
Eternal Disconnection or Separation of a person totally from God after resurrection of the dead. Such a person is thrown into the Lake of fire.

Rev 20:14:
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Rev 20:15: "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Now that I have explained the three kinds of death found in the scriptures, I will answer your questions.


You said man has a beginning but NO end.
Please can you correlate that to what the Bible says at Proverbs 14:12,16:25

The fact that man has a beginning is trivial. We can trace the origin on man to Adam and Eve.

Prov 14:12:
"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."

The Question is which of the kinds of death?
a. It cannot be physical death because even the saints die just like the sinners.
b. It could be Spiritual death or second death. Both fit into the text.

However, in context, death here means destruction, evil, disaster. That is why the bible says
Prov 3:5-7:
"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil."

Man exist forever:
a. The Righteous in paradise forever

John 14:16: "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever ;".

b. The Wicked in Lake of fire forever

Mat 25:46: "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

2Ths 1:9: "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

Jud 1:6: "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

Dan 12:2: "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."


Your second question:

God also told Adam that if he eat from the forbidden fruit he will die! Genesis 2:16-17


Spiritual Death...for they didn't die physically the day they eat of the tree.

Gen 2:17:
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Your third Question
Paul also said the wages of sin is death! Romans 6:23

Spiritual Death!

For even the saints die physically!

Your Fourth Question:

At Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 God's word said death of man and beast is the same because both will seize to exist at death.


Physical Death.

The physical death of humans and animals is completely alike.

Your Fifth Question:

So now that Adam died, can we say he has NO end?
Adam died physically just like Abraham died physically.

But the bible says:

Mar 12:26-27:
"And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err."

Dead people were given white robes to put on after they protested their murder by wicked men

Rev 6:10-11
: "And they cried with a loud voice , saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were , should be fulfilled."

I believe I've answered your questions
Of course you did! smiley
It's just a presentation and not a scrutiny of what each person believes.
I strongly believe that God created man from dust and breath into his nostril the breath of life and man became a living person. Genesis 2:7
Well i believe that it is the breath that keeps the body living as it's life~force[spirit] Psalm 146:4 compared to Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
Psalms 146:4 clearly says that at death all the thoughts of man perish!
To me that totally contradicts what you said about someone whose soul or spirit still lives after dying because such a person will sure retain his memories or thoughts!
Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 says both man and beast have the same spirit[life~force] actuating their bodies, so both man and beast ENDS the same way!
What i noticed in the whole concept is that God gave Adam the prospect of living FOREVER, but Adam did not appreciate this wonderful gift so he lost it.
Satan lied that they WILL NOT DIE even when God told Adam YOU WILL DIE. Genesis 2:17, 3:4-5
I believe they died THAT SAME DAY. Because to me a day is exactly 24 hours but to the one who said 'the very day you eat of it,you will surely die', one day is equivalent of 1,000 years! 2Peter 3:8
Peter with the help of holy spirit explained that we should not be confused respecting whatever God says or promises since man is always anticipating whatever promise or saying of God and majority of humans do loose confidence due to what we can say is taking too long! 2Peter 3:3-7
Adam lived 930 years and died, the record of another longer lifespan was Methuselah 969 years. None of Adams descendants live up to 1,000 years which is the equivalent of ONE day from God's viewpoint! Genesis 5:5,27
Moreover God's one day allowed the three rebels to ascertain the outcome, whoever eats of the forbidden tree can't survive it's venom, Adam and Eve also had children, they grew old,week,sickly and finally they expired! There was no record of Adam and Eve ever again after their death, so i strongly agree that death is the exact opposite of life!
When Jesus talked about FAITHFUL servants of God in the past, he said 'they are all living to him'. Luke 20:38
I believe Jesus sees matters the same way his father views it, when Lazarus[a Christian] died Jesus confidently said 'Lazarus slept' because Lazarus as a faithful person is alive in God's memory book!
Jesus NEVER said all the dead are living to God, he only mentioned living in connection to FAITHFUL people like Job who believe in the hope of resurrection! Job 14:15 compared to John 5:28,29
Well thanks for the contribution, it is appreciated! smiley
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by shadeyinka(m): 6:24am On May 14
Maximus69:
Of course you did! smiley
It's just a presentation and not a scrutiny of what each person believes.
I strongly believe that God created man from dust and breath into his nostril the breath of life and man became a living person. Genesis 2:7
Well i believe that it is the breath that keeps the body living as it's life~force[spirit] Psalm 146:4 compared to Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
Important concepts deserves deep treatment!

Maximus69:

Psalms 146:4 clearly says that at death all the thoughts of man perish!
To me that totally contradicts what you said about someone whose soul or spirit still lives after dying because such a person will sure retain his memories or thoughts!

Rev 6:10-11: "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

I think your position contracts it.

Maximus69:

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 says both man and beast have the same spirit[life~force] actuating their bodies, so both man and beast ENDS the same way!
Physical Death!

Maximus69:

What i noticed in the whole concept is that God gave Adam the prospect of living FOREVER, but Adam did not appreciate this wonderful gift so he lost it.
Satan lied that they WILL NOT DIE even when God told Adam YOU WILL DIE. Genesis 2:17, 3:4-5
I believe they died THAT SAME DAY. Because to me a day is exactly 24 hours but to the one who said 'the very day you eat of it,you will surely die', one day is equivalent of 1,000 years!

Gen 1:14: "And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:"

Gen 7:4: "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth."


You should be consistent with applying the rule of 1 day=1000years.


Maximus69:


2Peter 3:8
Peter with the help of holy spirit explained that we should not be confused respecting whatever God says or promises since man is always anticipating whatever promise or saying of God and majority of humans do loose confidence due to what we can say is taking too long! 2Peter 3:3-7
Adam lived 930 years and died, the record of another longer lifespan was Methuselah 969 years. None of Adams descendants live up to 1,000 years which is the equivalent of ONE day from God's viewpoint! Genesis 5:5,27
Moreover God's one day allowed the three rebels to ascertain the outcome, whoever eats of the forbidden tree can't survive it's venom, Adam and Eve also had children, they grew old,week,sickly and finally they expired! There was no record of Adam and Eve ever again after their death, so i strongly agree that death is the exact opposite of life!
But there were records of
Abraham
Moses
Elijah
The saints killed during tribulation



Maximus69:

When Jesus talked about FAITHFUL servants of God in the past, he said 'they are all living to him'. Luke 20:38
I believe Jesus sees matters the same way his father views it, when Lazarus[a Christian] died Jesus confidently said 'Lazarus slept' because Lazarus as a faithful person is alive in God's memory book!
If you can find a scripture!?
Jesus said God isn't the God of the dead but the living.
Mat 22:32:
"I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."


Maximus69:

Jesus NEVER said all the dead are living to God, he only mentioned living in connection to FAITHFUL people like Job who believe in the hope of resurrection! Job 14:15 compared to John 5:28,29
Well thanks for the contribution, it is appreciated! smiley
Are you saying that only the righteous are Living to God?


Thanks for your input
Would you want to ask another question or you want me to ask mine.

Shalom!
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by Maximus69: 6:27am On May 14
shadeyinka:

Jesus is the First born: but First Born isn't the same thing as born again. I honestly think you are bending scriptures to suit your doctrines.
Jesus described being born again with reference to the Serpent in the wilderness.
John 3:14:
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:"
"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

Whosoever contradicts your doctrine also, whats the connection between the scripture above and being born again?

Check out this scripture addressed to the church of God:

1Cor 12:13:
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."
We ALL are baptized.....

We we believers are ALL Baptized into the Holy Spirit how come your doctrine says it's a select few?

Who are the ANNOINTED and SEALED ones in the scripture below?

2Cor 1:21-22:
"Now he which establisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us , and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."


Who is this scripture refering to?

2Cor 11:4: "For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."

How do people receive the Holy Spirit?

Gal 3:1-2:

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"

Gal 5:25:
"If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."

Eph 1:13-14:
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise , Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

We were even commanded to be FILLED with the Holy Spirit
Eph 5:18:
"And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;"

1Pet 1:1-2:
"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

If after all these Scriptures you still feel you are alienated from having the Holy Spirit as your SEAL, there is nothing else to say.



I think you may ask your question now.
Well let me also contribute to this, i didn't notice it at first.
Jesus is the first creature God made and brought him up like a son, he was taught so many things and when his father started creating all other things Jesus worked alongside his father in the work of creation! Proverbs 8:22-31 compared to Colossians 1:15-17
I believe he is Michael the archangel because everything said about Michael was also said about Jesus and since God only had angels living with him in heaven Jesus must be one of God's heavenly children [angels].
But one significant scriptural quote is [Revelation 12:5,17] there it was revealed to John that Jesus was BORN by a WOMAN who still had other children!
I strongly believe these are the born agains that were born by God's holy spirit after Jesus [first born son of the WOMAN!]
At John 1:1 there is a lot of contradictions in the translation of that text. a thorough research made it known that John penned down his own record of the gospel after the book of Revelations. So he could add to his own record that Jesus served as GOD just as Moses also served as GOD at some point in times past. Exodus 7:1
Many trinitarians translated John's gospel this way 'in the beginning was the word,and the word was with GOD and the word was GOD'
And other scholars who disagreed with the trinity doctrine translated it 'in the beginning was the word,and the word was with GOD and the word was a god'
But one thing that is common in the rendering is the past tense used throughout in quotation, none of the translators changed the tense!
Jesus is the word of God and he WAS God or god, showing he is no more serving in that capasity! smiley
Good morning Sir!
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by Maximus69: 6:31am On May 14
shadeyinka:

Important concepts deserves deep treatment!


Rev 6:10-11: "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

I think your position contracts it.


Physical Death!



Gen 1:14: "And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:"

Gen 7:4: "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth."


You should be consistent with applying the rule of 1 day=1000years.



But there were records of
Abraham
Moses
Elijah
The saints killed during tribulation




If you can find a scripture!?
Jesus said God isn't the God of the dead but the living.
Mat 22:32:
"I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."



Are you saying that only the righteous are Living to God?


Thanks for your input
Would you want to ask another question or you want me to ask mine.

Shalom!
It's a friendly discussion. So you may ask a question! smiley
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by shadeyinka(m): 6:36am On May 14
Maximus69:
Well let me also contribute to this, i didn't notice it at first.
Jesus is the first creature God made and brought him up like a son, he was taught so many things and when his father started creating all other things Jesus worked alongside his father in the work of creation! Proverbs 8:22-31 compared to Colossians 1:15-17
I believe he is Michael the archangel because everything said about Michael was also said about Jesus and since God only had angels living with him in heaven Jesus must be one of God's heavenly children [angels].
There is one question you should expect from me regarding this.

Maximus69:

But one significant scriptural quote is [Revelation 12:5,17] there it was revealed to John that Jesus was BORN by a WOMAN who still had other children!
I strongly believe these are the born agains that were born by God's holy spirit after Jesus [first born son of the WOMAN!]
At John 1:1 there is a lot of contradictions in the translation of that text. a thorough research made it known that John penned down his own record of the gospel after the book of Revelations. So he could add to his own record that Jesus served as GOD just as Moses also served as GOD at some point in times past. Exodus 7:1
Many trinitarians translated John's gospel this way 'in the beginning was the word,and the word was with GOD and the word was GOD'
And other scholars who disagreed with the trinity doctrine translated it 'in the beginning was the word,and the word was with GOD and the word was a god'
But one thing that is common in the rendering is the past tense used throughout in quotation, none of the translators changed the tense!
Jesus is the word of God and he WAS God or god, showing he is no more serving in that capasity! smiley
Good morning Sir!

There will be another question on this!
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by shadeyinka(m): 6:36am On May 14
Maximus69:
It's a friendly discussion. So you may ask a question! smiley
Please feel free!
Modified:

I misunderstood you. I thought you said you'll ask a question.

Give me a minute
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by shadeyinka(m): 6:59am On May 14
Maximus69:
It's a friendly discussion. So you may ask a question! smiley
This my question still revolve around death and life


1. “If there is ‘not even one part of us [that] survives the death of the body,’ what did Jesus mean when He said:

Matthew 10:28
‘And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge·hen´na.’
*Apparently, there isn't any difference between how God kills and how man kills since in both cases, the dead know nothing!

Doesn’t this Scripture indicate that the soul is not ‘destroyed’ when the body is killed?

2. If you regard Solomon as an authority on death and the afterlife, do you believe Solomon’s words at

Ecclesiastes 9:6:
‘…they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun’

Doesn't this imply that there is no resurection?
Do you believe that when you die, you will have ‘no portion’ FOREVER ‘in anything… done under the sun’?

3. What about Ecclesiastes 9:2 that proclaims the righteous and the wicked have the same end?
Do you regard these Scriptures as accurate depictions of life and eternity?

Is Solomon not merely portraying a humanistic worldview, not an eternal perspective of life and death?

I wouldn't comment on your response but rather either hear your next question or present another question; Whichever is ok with you.
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by Maximus69: 7:43am On May 14
shadeyinka:

This my question still revolve around death and life


1. “If there is ‘not even one part of us [that] survives the death of the body,’ what did Jesus mean when He said:

Matthew 10:28
‘And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge·hen´na.’
*Apparently, there isn't any difference between how God kills and how man kills since in both cases, the dead know nothing!

Doesn’t this Scripture indicate that the soul is not ‘destroyed’ when the body is killed?

2. If you regard Solomon as an authority on death and the afterlife, do you believe Solomon’s words at

Ecclesiastes 9:6:
‘…they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun’

Doesn't this imply that there is no resurection?
Do you believe that when you die, you will have ‘no portion’ FOREVER ‘in anything… done under the sun’?

3. What about Ecclesiastes 9:2 that proclaims the righteous and the wicked have the same end?
Do you regard these Scriptures as accurate depictions of life and eternity?

Is Solomon not merely portraying a humanistic worldview, not an eternal perspective of life and death?

I wouldn't comment on your response but rather either hear your next question or present another question; Whichever is ok with you.
Solomon was GIVEN THE SPIRIT OF WISDOM at his request for it!
'All scriptures is inspired of God' says Paul 2Timithy 3:16
So instead of picking what goes along with my personal views, i read, study and meditate PRAYERFULLY to reach a comprehensive conclusion!
The same thing happens to the good and bad, the only chance the good have is that God[the holy one] keeps their GOOD memories so they're going to be called back or brought back to life[resurrection]
But God doesn't keep account of injury so those who chose to do evil have no record with the holy one, therefore they are erased in his memory book as in NO remembrance of them or NO resurrection for them! Psalms 9:17
There is nobody who fully understands God like Jesus[John 1:18] so he told us that we must be holy just like our heavenly father who keeps NO account of evil. Matthew 5:48, 8:21-22
That is why i strongly believe that the wicked are gone for good! Psalms 37:9-11 compared to Proverbs 2:20-22
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by shadeyinka(m): 8:36am On May 14
Maximus69:
Solomon was GIVEN THE SPIRIT OF WISDOM at his request for it!
'All scriptures is inspired of God' says Paul 2Timithy 3:16
So instead of picking what goes along with my personal views, i read, study and meditate PRAYERFULLY to reach a comprehensive conclusion!

I think you are deliberately being evasive. I was asking YOUR VIEW/UNDERSTANDING about 4 separate Questions.


Maximus69:
Thanks for expressing your own viewpoints regarding those scriptural texts!
Well it's obvious our views totally differs from one another but that doesn't stop us from considering each others viewpoints later to correlate it with the whole concept .
OK, now it's your turn for questioning please one at a time! smiley

Maximus69:

NO! I don't think that is necessary since it's not in one day that each of us accumulated what we're saying now.
It will take a longer time to conclude and that is based on what each person has resolved in his heart. Remember it is not a CHALLENGE but a tactful discuss on how far each person is able to correlate what he has read in the Bible from Genesis to Revelations and of what benefit is it to those we're sharing our views!
The motive of this is to share thoughts and leave each person with his conscience to resolve in his heart whether what he is hearing is worthwhile. We're not to force our PERSONAL resolve on each other! smiley
Based on the above, I require your honest opinion on each question.

My Motive:
You quote a lot from Ecclesiastes and you hold they views very LITERALLY. I just reminded you of some of those scriptures that we may also look at Literally and see if it conforms to the harmony of the scriptures.


Maximus69:

The same thing happens to the good and bad, the only chance the good have is that God[the holy one] keeps their GOOD memories so they're going to be called back or brought back to life[resurrection]
But God doesn't keep account of injury so those who chose to evil have no record with the holy one, therefore they are erased in his memory book as in NO remembrance of them or NO resurrection for them! Psalms 9:17
There is nobody who fully understands God like Jesus[John 1:18] so he told us that we must be holy just like our heavenly father who keeps NO account of evil. Matthew 5:48, 8:21-22
That is why i strongly believe that the wicked are gone for good! Psalms 37:9-11 compared to Proverbs 2:20-22
I wish you address each question separately. Answering difficult Questions help us to arrive at the TRUTH. Evading difficult question especially in areas and issues we have knowledge could mean we have some fear of arriving at a different conclusion.


HOWEVER, haven said this, if you still prefer not answer the questions, you may ask your own question question or grant me leave to ask another question!

A the end of the day I pray both of us be edified by our discussions
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by Maximus69: 9:49am On May 14
shadeyinka:


I think you are deliberately being evasive. I was asking YOUR VIEW/UNDERSTANDING about 4 separate Questions.





Based on the above, I require your honest opinion on each question.

My Motive:
You quote a lot from Ecclesiastes and you hold they views very LITERALLY. I just reminded you of some of those scriptures that we may also look at Literally and see if it conforms to the harmony of the scriptures.



I wish you address each question separately. Answering difficult Questions help us to arrive at the TRUTH. Evading difficult question especially in areas and issues we have knowledge could mean we have some fear of arriving at a different conclusion.


HOWEVER, haven said this, if you still prefer not answer the questions, you may ask your own question question or grant me leave to ask another question!

A the end of the day I pray both of us be edified by our discussions
Please remind me of the question you think i evaded! smiley
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by shadeyinka(m): 9:56am On May 14
Maximus69:
Please remind me of the question you think i evaded! smiley
Here are the questions again:

shadeyinka:

This my question still revolve around death and life


1. “If there is ‘not even one part of us [that] survives the death of the body,’ what did Jesus mean when He said:

Matthew 10:28
‘And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge·hen´na.’
*Apparently, there isn't any difference between how God kills and how man kills since in both cases, the dead know nothing!

Doesn’t this Scripture indicate that the soul is not ‘destroyed’ when the body is killed?

2. If you regard Solomon as an authority on death and the afterlife, do you believe Solomon’s words at

Ecclesiastes 9:6:
‘…they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun’

Doesn't this imply that there is no resurection?
Do you believe that when you die, you will have ‘no portion’ FOREVER ‘in anything… done under the sun’?

3. What about Ecclesiastes 9:2 that proclaims the righteous and the wicked have the same end?
Do you regard these Scriptures as accurate depictions of life and eternity?

Is Solomon not merely portraying a humanistic worldview, not an eternal perspective of life and death?

I wouldn't comment on your response but rather either hear your next question or present another question; Whichever is ok with you.
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by Maximus69: 10:40am On May 14
shadeyinka:

Here are the questions again:

To the best of my understanding correlated with other scriptures from Genesis to Revelation, Jesus is talking about the REMEMBRANCE of a person.
Our body means the same thing before highly intelligent spirit beings but the personality[Soul] means different individuals!
For instance, John the baptist is a person just like Herod Antipas considering their corruptible dying bodies, but their personalities matters to God who values the deeds of man!
So if both of them are stabbed, shot or strangled, the memory of the virtuous one is in God's memory book whereas there is no record for the wicked! Genesis 4:10
That is why Jesus could say 'fear the person who can destroy both body[flesh] and soul[personality] in hell[grave].
As regards the SOUL God's word clearly says souls do die[Ezekiel 18:4] and both humans and animals are regarded as souls because your dog[pet] is just a dog to a stranger but to you who knows the dog by name and remembers all the good memories of your pet, you'll never take it lightly if he kills your dog and offer to buy you just another dog! smiley

(1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10) ... (19) (Reply)

Preacher Claims He's Jesus: Even Greater? / Jesus, Man Of Contradiction: Was Jesus For Everyone, Including Non-jews? / On The Holy Communion ( Between Paul And Jesus Christ)

(Go Up)

Sections: politics (1) business autos (1) jobs (1) career education (1) romance computers phones travel sports fashion health
religion celebs tv-movies music-radio literature webmasters programming techmarket

Links: (0) (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9)

Nairaland - Copyright © 2005 - 2019 Oluwaseun Osewa. All rights reserved. See How To Advertise. 581
Disclaimer: Every Nairaland member is solely responsible for anything that he/she posts or uploads on Nairaland.