GeneralDae:

So how does this prove that Jesus crucifixion was copied from this ankhi in ancient Egypt rather than he being crucified in first century Judea by Romans? Also cross in Mark's gospel was not interpreted as a symbol to eternal life as in ankhi, but it was seen as oppression which it was to first century jews.
Also cross used to crucify was invented by the Babylonians 400 years before Jesus.

How it proves that is because nobody outside the bible saw Jesus being crucified. Upon all the marvelous stories of Jesus and the multitude of followers in your Bible but nobody in history said he met Jesus. Therefore, the Jesus story must have been copied from older Horus in nearby Egypt who was also said to have been crucified on the cross. And the cross didn't just signify resurrection. It signified a number of things, such as the way, the truth, life.

musicwriter:


How it proves that is because nobody outside the bible saw Jesus being crucified. Upon all the marvelous stories of Jesus and the multitude of followers in your Bible but nobody in history said he met Jesus. Therefore, the Jesus story must have been copied from older Horus in nearby Egypt who was also said to have been crucified on the cross. And the cross didn't just signify resurrection. It signified a number of things, such as the way, the truth, life.

show me the Egyptian text that says Horus was crucified.

GeneralDae:
musicwriter, if Romans want to invent a religion, they would not invent a man dying on a cross, rather he would look very much like your ankhi story where he carries the cross to make intercession for eternal life before God like in your video, but we do not find this in the bible, rather we find that he was crucified.
To be crucified in the ancient world of Rome was the worst death given to slaves only, so much so that a Roman citizen was never to be crucified. Wouldn't it then be stupid to invent a religion where the hero was crucified? Think about this.
Isn't this why Paul said dying by crucifixion was foolishness to the gentiles and weakness to the jews? can't you see it was a barrier to the message of the early christians?

The story didn't begin from Jesus!!. I said before the Jesus story, Rome already had their own version of a resurrected savior called Mithra. The old Roman story was superimposed on the new story of the early Jewish sect.

musicwriter:


The story didn't begin from Jesus!!. I said before the Jesus story, Rome already had their own version of a resurrected savior called Mithra. The old Roman story was superimposed on the new story of the early Jewish sect.

show me the story before Jesus that says Mithra was crucified.

GeneralDae:

show me the story before Jesus that says Mithra was crucified.

I also told you earlier that the Romans never had a book on Mithra, rather the story was passed orally. This's one of the reasons they adopted a similar myth held by the early Jewish sect.

But the ancient Egyptians wrote theirs down in papyrus and stone carvings. Read the book of the dead or Christianity before christ. There're so many other books on ancient Egyptian religion.

musicwriter:


I also told you earlier that the Romans never had a book on Mithra, rather the story was passed orally. This's one of the reasons they adopted a similar myth held by the early Jewish sect.

But the ancient Egyptians wrote theirs down in papyrus and stone carvings. Read the book of the dead or Christianity before christ. There're so many other books on ancient Egyptian religion.

How then do you know mithras was crucified? okay give me a quotation from any Roman before Jesus that said mithras was crucified. At least that would be proof.

GeneralDae:

How then do you know mithras was crucified? okay give me a quotation from any Roman before Jesus that said mithras was crucified. At least that would be proof.

All the books I've mentioned on this thread have one or two paragraphs on Mithra and all the other ancient resurrected saviors. Read them.
One source could also be found in the documentary I posted earlier. See the other post and watch the documentary on how Constantine invented christianity by deceit.

musicwriter:


All the books I've mentioned on this thread have one or two paragraphs on Mithra and all the other ancient resurrected saviors. Read them.
One source could also be found in the documentary I posted earlier. See the other post and watch the documentary on how Constantine invented christianity by deceit.

Do those books have references at the end? Give me the references they quoted at the end, that's all I want. As for the documentaries, I can also find you documentaries that explores the story of Jesus as an historical figure, so documentaries by themselves are meaningless without scholarly sources or references backing them up.

GeneralDae:

Do those book have references at the end? Give me the references they quoted at the end. That's all I want.

Of course, why not? I'll advise you to download the books and check the bibliography yourself.

Books to download.

Christianity before christ by John G. Jackson.

Caesar's Messiah by Joseph Atwill.

Jesus never existed by Kenneth Humphreys.

Who is this son of glory? ........ I forgot name of author.

The book of the dead by Wallace Budge.

Pagan origins of the Christ myth by John G. Jackson.... this's just a pamphlet of few pages before he wrote Christianity before Christ.

Bible myths and their parallel in other other religions by......I forgot the author's name.

101 myths of the bible- how bible authors invented biblical characters by......... I forgot the author's name.

There're so many other books out there. You can get many for free. Download them and go to their various bibliographies. This would lead you to true history and into the early days of the Jewish sect that would later become christianity and beyond.

musicwriter:


Of course, why not? I'll advise you to download the books and check the bibliography yourself.

Books to download.

Christianity before christ by John G. Jackson.

Caesar's Messiah by Joseph Atwill.

Jesus never existed by Kenneth Humphreys.

Who is this son of glory? ........ I forgot name of author.

The book of the dead by Wallace Budge.

Pagan origins of the Christ myth by John G. Jackson.... this's just a pamphlet of few pages before he wrote Christianity before Christ.

Bible myths and their parallel in other other religions by......I forgot the author's name.

101 myths of the bible- how bible authors invented biblical characters by......... I forgot the author's name.

There're so many other books out there. You can get many for free. Download them and go to their various bibliographies. This would lead you to true history and into the early days of the Jewish sect that would later become christianity and beyond.

ok I would download them, but instead of giving me books, it's surprising that you couldn't give me at least one reference from those books where an Ancient Roman who lived before christ said Mithra was crucified. Because they are books, doesn't mean everything within are all true.

GeneralDae:

ok I would download them, but instead of giving me books, it's surprising that you couldn't give me at least one reference from those books where an Ancient Roman who lived before christ said Mithra was crucified. Because they are books, doesn't mean everything within are all true.

I said check the sources in given books. Even two early church fathers (Justin Martyr and St. Augustine) made reference to such older saviors that existed before Jesus. How about Horus you saw holding a cross 5, 000 years before Jesus in the papyrus picture?

musicwriter:


I said check the sources in given books. Even two early church fathers (Justin Martyr and St. Augustine) made reference to such older saviors that existed before Jesus. How about Horus you saw holding a cross 5, 000 years before Jesus in the papyrus picture?

where the older savior was crucified on a cross?
Why I am sure this doesn't exist is that crucifixion was not something celebrated in the ancient world, it was a stigma in the Roman Empire and it was not invented during the period of the Horus mythology in Egypt, hence ascribing it to a god would have been useless, so I wonder where your sources would have gotten their stories from.

GeneralDae:

where the older savior was crucified on a cross?
Why I am sure this doesn't exist is that crucifixion was not something celebrated in the ancient world, and ascribing it to a god would have been useless. So I wonder where your sources would have gotten their stories from.

When you check you'll see where they got it. Meanwhile, it's interesting the bible has no reference or bibliography, yet you believe it without asking for sources.

musicwriter:


When you check you'll see where they got it. Meanwhile, it's interesting the bible has no reference or bibliography, yet you believe it without asking for sources.

lol, you have read these books but can't quote just one reference from any that links to a quotation or oral tradition of crucifixion of a god before Jesus, issorite.

GeneralDae:

lol, you have read these books but can't quote just one reference from any that links to a quotation or oral tradition of crucifixion of a god before Jesus, issorite.

God created the world in 7 days. What's your source.

Moses divided the red sea. What's your source?

God spoke to Abraham. What's your source?

Jesus was born by a virgin. What's your source?

Jesus turned water into wine. What's your source?

Jesus resurrected Lazarus from the dead. What's your source?

You're using the bible to prove the bible? And you're talking about source?? Hahahahhahaha

musicwriter:


God created the world in 7 days. What's your source.

Moses divided the red sea. What's your source?

God spoke to Abraham. What's your source?

Jesus was born by a virgin. What's your source?

Jesus turned water into wine. What's your source?

Jesus resurrected Lazarus from the dead. What's your source?

You're using the bible to prove the bible? And you're talking about source?? Hahahahhahaha

Someone asked about Horus crucified on stack exchange, this is an answer he got with scholarly references and quotations....


[b]I've heard this claim before and see no evidence for it in any Egyptian texts or iconography. Acharya S is unscholarly, makes many silly mistakes, and thus is unreliable; and Maher's people obviously got his bullet points from the Acharya piece to which you linked in your question.

Acharya throws up numerous points hoping that some of them will stick, but they don't. She doesn't cite any Egyptian texts that support her view, which is not surprising because there are none and, I would argue, there can be none. This is because the idea that Horus can be crucified and resurrected is logically precluded by Egypt's mythology and religious thinking. While a person is alive (taking the king as the example), he is Horus. But once you die, you become Osiris and are not Horus, so it can only be Osiris who is resurrected.

Not having any Egyptian texts to rely upon, Acharya relies on images of Horus with his arms out from his sides, and the idea that the Egyptian ankh and Christ's cross are the same. See this article: Was Horus "Crucified?" However, the ankh sign comes not from a cross but from a sandal strap (see Gardiner sign S34). In Egyptian, the ankh glyph is used to mean "life" as well as for the verb "to live," but it never is an agency of death; in Egypt no one ever dies on an ankh, much less is crucified on one. There are no such images in the iconography, since crucifixion was not practiced in ancient Egypt (at least before Roman times).

Further, a figure holding out his arms in itself says nothing about death or crucifixion, or a cross or Christ. Acharya's notion reminds me of Tertullian's laughable interpretation of Moses' surveying the Hebrews' (led by Joshua) battle against the Amalekites (Exod.17:8-13), where by standing on a hill and surveying the battle below, Moses (with help from Aaron and Hur) held his hands out to his sides and so caused the Hebrews to prevail. Tertullian claimed that this posture prefigured Christ and the cross, foretelling the cross through which Christ would be victorious over death and bring salvation. (Tertullian, Against Marcion, Book 3, Ch. 18.) No one would agree with such kinds of interpretations today. Yet Acharya relies on similarly ignorant/silly statements and wishful thinking by Church Fathers to support her claim.

In the past it has sometimes been claimed (e.g., by Wallis Budge, in his Legends of the Gods (1912), see this article; THE LEGEND OF THE DEATH AND RESURRECTION OF HORUS, AND OTHER MAGICAL TEXTS. (Among Egyptologists, Budge is no longer considered reliable)) that, in a myth recited on the Metternich Stela now on exhibit at the Metropolitan Museum in New York, the child Horus is stung by a scorpion (which is Seth's doing), dies from the poison, and is resurrected by Thoth. But I know of no modern reading/translation of this text that has him dying rather than just unconscious and on the brink of death. The Stela's text itself says that "the child was weak beyond answering," and "refused the jar [of drink]," which obviously means he is not dead. [/b]

musicwriter:


When you check you'll see where they got it. Meanwhile, it's interesting the bible has no reference or bibliography, yet you believe it without asking for sources.

Here's the second answer on stackexchange on the question of Horus crucifixion....


Short answer, no. There is no writing, inscription, artwork, statuary, or anything that indicates Horus (or Osiris) was crucified.
There is death and resurrection in Horus' story, though. The Metternich Stele relates the story of Horus dying by the sting of a scorpion. Budge has a nice summary:

GeneralDae:

Someone asked about Horus crucified on stack exchange, this is an answer he got with scholarly references and quotations....


[b]I've heard this claim before and see no evidence for it in any Egyptian texts or iconography. Acharya S is unscholarly, makes many silly mistakes, and thus is unreliable; and Maher's people obviously got his bullet points from the Acharya piece to which you linked in your question.

Acharya throws up numerous points hoping that some of them will stick, but they don't. She doesn't cite any Egyptian texts that support her view, which is not surprising because there are none and, I would argue, there can be none. This is because the idea that Horus can be crucified and resurrected is logically precluded by Egypt's mythology and religious thinking. While a person is alive (taking the king as the example), he is Horus. But once you die, you become Osiris and are not Horus, so it can only be Osiris who is resurrected.

Not having any Egyptian texts to rely upon, Acharya relies on images of Horus with his arms out from his sides, and the idea that the Egyptian ankh and Christ's cross are the same. See this article: Was Horus "Crucified?" However, the ankh sign comes not from a cross but from a sandal strap (see Gardiner sign S34). In Egyptian, the ankh glyph is used to mean "life" as well as for the verb "to live," but it never is an agency of death; in Egypt no one ever dies on an ankh, much less is crucified on one. There are no such images in the iconography, since crucifixion was not practiced in ancient Egypt (at least before Roman times).

Further, a figure holding out his arms in itself says nothing about death or crucifixion, or a cross or Christ. Acharya's notion reminds me of Tertullian's laughable interpretation of Moses' surveying the Hebrews' (led by Joshua) battle against the Amalekites (Exod.17:8-13), where by standing on a hill and surveying the battle below, Moses (with help from Aaron and Hur) held his hands out to his sides and so caused the Hebrews to prevail. Tertullian claimed that this posture prefigured Christ and the cross, foretelling the cross through which Christ would be victorious over death and bring salvation. (Tertullian, Against Marcion, Book 3, Ch. 18.) No one would agree with such kinds of interpretations today. Yet Acharya relies on similarly ignorant/silly statements and wishful thinking by Church Fathers to support her claim.

In the past it has sometimes been claimed (e.g., by Wallis Budge, in his Legends of the Gods (1912), see this article; THE LEGEND OF THE DEATH AND RESURRECTION OF HORUS, AND OTHER MAGICAL TEXTS. (Among Egyptologists, Budge is no longer considered reliable)) that, in a myth recited on the Metternich Stela now on exhibit at the Metropolitan Museum in New York, the child Horus is stung by a scorpion (which is Seth's doing), dies from the poison, and is resurrected by Thoth. But I know of no modern reading/translation of this text that has him dying rather than just unconscious and on the brink of death. The Stela's text itself says that "the child was weak beyond answering," and "refused the jar [of drink]," which obviously means he is not dead. [/b]

The person who wrote that doesn't know what he's saying when he said "I've heard this claim before and see no evidence for it in any Egyptian texts or iconography."

Ancient Egyptian religion texts and iconographies are all over museums across Europe and America. I have shown you papyrus picture of Horus holding an ankh (Egyptian name for cross) and there's even a stone carving showing the virgin birth of Horus and 3 wise men from the East bringing some gifts to him and mother.

Google Egyptian cross/ankh.

Google the virgin birth of horus inscribed on stone in Egypt.

musicwriter:


The person who wrote that doesn't know what he's saying when he said "I've heard this claim before and see no evidence for it in any Egyptian texts or iconography."

Ancient Egyptian religion texts and iconographies are all over museums across Europe and America. I have shown you papyrus picture of Horus holding an ankh (Egyptian name for cross) and there's even a stone carving showing the virgin birth of Horus and 3 wise men from the East bringing some gifts to him and mother.

Google Egyptian cross/ankh.

Google the virgin birth of horus inscribed on stone in Egypt.

Well the person also quoted those things you showed me and like I said the ankh is not a cross where people get crucified on, and this is what the person also said. All 3 answers on the matter said thesame thing, and scholars continue to say thesame thing till date, no evidence of a Horus, jesus crucifixion similarity.

musicwriter:


The person who wrote that doesn't know what he's saying when he said "I've heard this claim before and see no evidence for it in any Egyptian texts or iconography."

Ancient Egyptian religion texts and iconographies are all over museums across Europe and America. I have shown you papyrus picture of Horus holding an ankh (Egyptian name for cross) and there's even a stone carving showing the virgin birth of Horus and 3 wise men from the East bringing some gifts to him and mother.

Google Egyptian cross/ankh.

Google the virgin birth of horus inscribed on stone in Egypt.

As for mithra, I have searched all over and could not find anything that indicates mithra was crucified from any Roman before the birth of christ. Here's what wikipedia has to say on the matter with sources and references of course...



Salvation
A painted text on the wall of the St. Prisca Mithraeum (c A.D. 200)[34] in Rome contains the words: et nos servasti (?) . . . sanguine fuso (and you have saved us ... in the shed blood). The meaning of this text is unclear, although presumably it refers to the bull killed by Mithras, as no other source refers to a Mithraic salvation. However, the servasti is only a conjecture.[35] According to Robert Turcan,[36] Mithraic salvation had little to do with the other-worldly destiny of individual souls, but was on the Zoroastrian pattern of man's participation in the cosmic struggle of the good creation against the forces of evil.[37] According to Akhondi and Akbari, red was a color of prominence. The sacrifice of the bull's holy blood was a sign of fertility and life, much as in Christianity red wine can symbolize the sacrifice of Christ. In addition, white was an important color for the cult. The bull always remained white because it was a symbol of purity and holiness. Moon and stars painted in gold and white were also important symbols to the cult and later incorporated into Christian architecture and other decorations. [38]

Mithraists believed that one day Mithra's works would be complete on earth and that he would return to heaven. [39]

Symbolism of water Edit
Monuments in the Danube area depict Mithras shooting a bow at a rock in the presence of the torch-bearers, apparently to encourage water to come forth. Clauss states that, after the ritual meal, this "water-miracle offers the clearest parallel with Christianity".[40]

Sign of the cross Edit
Tertullian states that followers of Mithras were marked on their forehead in an unspecified manner.[41] There is no indication that this mark was made in the form of a cross, or a branding, or a tattoo, or a permanent mark of any kind.[42] The symbol of a circle with a diagonal cross inscribed within it is commonly found in Mithraea, especially in association with the Leontocephaline figure.

GeneralDae:

Here's the second answer on stackexchange on the question of Horus crucifixion....


Short answer, no. There is no writing, inscription, artwork, statuary, or anything that indicates Horus (or Osiris) was crucified.
There is death and resurrection in Horus' story, though. The Metternich Stele relates the story of Horus dying by the sting of a scorpion. Budge has a nice summary:

Aren't you the same person that told me not to give you blog sources? Stackchange is a site people talk about issues just like Nairaland, so don't show that to me because the one writing is just like you. He doesn't know any better. Or if he's your spokesperson, then invite him to Nairaland and open a thread let's discuss it.

There are no clear cut similarities to show that Jesus crucifixion was invented from these cults or anywhere. No modern atheist scholar even supports your position with all we know about Rome and the stigma of crucifixion.

musicwriter:


Aren't you the same person that told me not to give you blog sources? Stackchange is a site people talk about issues just like Nairaland, so don't show that to me because the one writing is just like you. He doesn't know any better. Or if he's your spokesperson, then invite him to Nairaland and open a thread let's discuss it.

They gave references all over. Do your blogs have references of modern scholarship? I checked their references to see if it's modern.

musicwriter:


Aren't you the same person that told me not to give you blog sources? Stackchange is a site people talk about issues just like Nairaland, so don't show that to me because the one writing is just like you. He doesn't know any better. Or if he's your spokesperson, then invite him to Nairaland and open a thread let's discuss it.

The person who asked the question on that blog said he has searched everywhere and could not find a source that proved Jesus-Horus crucifixion similarity, and I believe the person because I have once searched too when I saw the atheist bloggers making the claim, and I found none.

GeneralDae:

As for mithra, I have searched all over and could not find anything that indicates mithra was crucified from any Roman before the birth of christ. Here's what wikipedia has to say on the matter with sources and references of course...



Salvation
A painted text on the wall of the St. Prisca Mithraeum (c A.D. 200)[34] in Rome contains the words: et nos servasti (?) . . . sanguine fuso (and you have saved us ... in the shed blood). The meaning of this text is unclear, although presumably it refers to the bull killed by Mithras, as no other source refers to a Mithraic salvation. However, the servasti is only a conjecture.[35] According to Robert Turcan,[36] Mithraic salvation had little to do with the other-worldly destiny of individual souls, but was on the Zoroastrian pattern of man's participation in the cosmic struggle of the good creation against the forces of evil.[37] According to Akhondi and Akbari, red was a color of prominence. The sacrifice of the bull's holy blood was a sign of fertility and life, much as in Christianity red wine can symbolize the sacrifice of Christ. In addition, white was an important color for the cult. The bull always remained white because it was a symbol of purity and holiness. Moon and stars painted in gold and white were also important symbols to the cult and later incorporated into Christian architecture and other decorations. [38]

Mithraists believed that one day Mithra's works would be complete on earth and that he would return to heaven. [39]

Symbolism of water Edit
Monuments in the Danube area depict Mithras shooting a bow at a rock in the presence of the torch-bearers, apparently to encourage water to come forth. Clauss states that, after the ritual meal, this "water-miracle offers the clearest parallel with Christianity".[40]

Sign of the cross Edit
Tertullian states that followers of Mithras were marked on their forehead in an unspecified manner.[41] There is no indication that this mark was made in the form of a cross, or a branding, or a tattoo, or a permanent mark of any kind.[42] The symbol of a circle with a diagonal cross inscribed within it is commonly found in Mithraea, especially in association with the Leontocephaline figure.

When it says of Mithra that "you have saved us ... in the shed blood" that's how Greco-roman authors came up with the idea of Jesus saving you on the cross. So, as you can see, the concept of "saving someone with blood" is older than any Jesus.

GeneralDae:

The person who asked the question on that blog said he has searched everywhere and could not find a source that proved Jesus-Horus crucifixion similarity, and I believe the person because I have once searched too when I saw the atheist bloggers making the claim, and I found none.

Well, it depends on where they checked. Fortunately, I did my own research and found sources that proves Jesus is fake. Check the books given earlier.

musicwriter:


Well, it depends on where they checked. Fortunately, I did my own research and found sources that proves Jesus is fake. Check the books given earlier.

lol these books from those your scholars who perhaps are not modern or new testament scholars cannot be taken seriously in the academic world. They would be nothing but conspiracy theories just like Christians also have some conspiracy theories not backed up by facts or accepted by academia.

musicwriter:


When it says of Mithra that "you have saved us ... in the shed blood" that's how Greco-roman authors came up with the idea of Jesus saving you on the cross. So, as you can see, the concept of "saving someone with blood" is older than any Jesus.

it could be, but rather than assuming this, why not also link it to the Jewish ritual sacrifice of the passover. This is where Mark seem fixated on rather than Mithras.

Also mithraic salvation was different:

According to Robert Turcan,[36] Mithraic salvation had little to do with the other-worldly destiny of individual souls, but was on the Zoroastrian pattern of man's participation in the cosmic struggle of the good creation against the forces of evil.

GeneralDae:

lol these books from those your scholars who perhaps are not modern or new testament scholars cannot be taken seriously in the academic world.

All of them were formerly christians but who later became non christian. They all have background in history and should know better than new testament scholars who tend to be believers, and therefore, aren't always objective.

musicwriter:


All of them were formerly christians but who later became non christian. They all have background in history and should know better than new testament scholars who tend to be believers, and therefore, aren't always objective.

Many of the new testament scholars are not believers, and they are not just historians but specifically new testament historians who studied the ancient world and ancient christianity as a profession.

GeneralDae:

it could be, but rather than assuming this, why not also link it to the Jewish ritual sacrifice of the passover. This is where Mark seem fixated on rather than Mithras.

How many times should I tell you that the stories of resurrected messiahs were everywhere in ancient time? Rome copied from many sources, from ancient Egypt, from Jews, from India, from Greece, and from pagan Roman religion itself where Mithra, according to your source already shed blood to save mankid. Sorry my brother, I have to go.

musicwriter:


How many times should I tell you that the stories of resurrected messiahs were everywhere in ancient time? Rome copied from many sources, from ancient Egypt, from Jews, from India, from Greece, and from pagan Roman religion itself where Mithra, according to your source already shed blood to save mankid. Sorry my brother, I have to go.

No probs, me too I have to go, I think I've exposed these baseless theories created to confirm established beliefs rather than facts.