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Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! - Religion (4) - Nairaland

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Re: Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! by OkCornel(m): 2:49am On Jul 16
solite3:
read my previous post slowly again.

You're jumping up and about with little or no understanding of my first post on this thread. You speedily confused works for deeds of the law.

Deeds of the Law is not the works James was referring to.


By the way, we are still waiting for you to show us how unbelievers can be grafted into the vine in the first place. It is those who hear the words of Jesus and do nothing about it that ends up as unproductive branches...

It's like saying admission into the university is sufficient enough to earn you a certificate, whereas there are many drop outs with nothing to show for their admission...

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Re: Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! by OkCornel(m): 3:01am On Jul 16
John 15 v 1-17

The Vine and the Branches
1“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.

2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful.

3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.

4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.

10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.

12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.

16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

17 This is my command: Love each other.
Re: Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! by OkCornel(m): 3:09am On Jul 16
The funny thing is some people want to believe and have faith in Jesus without doing the things He said they should do and they feel it's sufficient.


If Faith alone can save, then even the goats (in the parable of the sheeps and goats) would have made heaven as well!



Pay attention to John 15 v 10 & 14, Jesus mentioned what it means to abide in Him and remain fruitful in the vine! i.e. keeping (carrying out or doing) His commandments. That is the "works" here that separates the sheeps from the goats!


All who believes (have Faith) in the words of Christ are branches of the vine. But those who do nothing on the words heard ends up as barren branches to be pruned off and tossed into the fire...

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Re: Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! by OkCornel(m): 3:24am On Jul 16
solite3:
I showed you first John didnt I? Why did you ignore it ? @ bolded this you trying to force your wrong interpretation to buttress your point. Nowhere does it state that they are belivers. Do show it if there are any?

John 15 v 3 clearly answers your question here to let you know Jesus was referring to those who believed in His words!

You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.


It is those who heard and believed the words of Jesus, but do nothing about them that ends up as barren branches to be pruned off and casted into the fire...

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Re: Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! by solite3(m): 7:20am On Jul 16
budaatum:

Faith, my dear friend, requires work. It takes a lot of work to have faith especially if you have no evidence for said faith.
if you have to work alot to have faith, then what you have is not faith.
Faith comes by hearing the word of God and not by doing.
Evidence of faith is not the cause of faith.


You can't expect to get a point if you do not put in any effort is precisely the point we've been making all along. You will not understand by your faith alone!

Work harder and you just might see the point.
it is unrelated to the subject of discussion which is, faith alone needed to be saved.
Re: Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! by solite3(m): 8:01am On Jul 16
OkCornel:


Ogbeni, stop jumping to first John . Read the parable of the vine and show us where the barren branches represents unbelievers.
you are the one who jumped from james to John and here you are like a pharisee accusing me of something you are guilty of. I can quote any scripture to butress my point, you cant stop me. I have showed you.

It represents those who hear and believe the teachings of Jesus without doing them.

This thing is too straightforward to twist.
I please, provide scriptural evidence that is what john 15 was saying.


Oh yeah, and according to you, dead faith means fake faith right? It is either you have faith or you don't have it.
it is either there is faith faith or there is no faith but how do you know there is no faith is it not when it lacks works? Fake means something that is not true or real, one may profess to have faith but if he has no evidence such perceive faith is fake. It is fake because such people profess to have it whereas they dont.



Now read what I said concerning works on my first post on this thread before you go about confusing it for DEEDS OF THE LAW again...
every work must conform with the law.
James obviously was talking about the 10 commandments which is part of the law.

James 2:8-11 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

James is talking of the works of the law.
Re: Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! by solite3(m): 8:33am On Jul 16
OkCornel:


You're jumping up and about with little or no understanding of my first post on this thread. You speedily confused works for deeds of the law.

Deeds of the Law is not the works James was referring to.
so what works was james referring to

James 2:8-11 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.




By the way, we are still waiting for you to show us how unbelievers can be grafted into the vine in the first place. It is those who hear the words of Jesus and do nothing about it that ends up as unproductive branches...
All that hears the gospel of christ are the branches

It's like saying admission into the university is sufficient enough to earn you a certificate, whereas there are many drop outs with nothing to show for their admission...
getting a degree is not a gift but Eternal life is a gift.
Re: Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! by OkCornel(m): 10:01am On Jul 16
solite3:
you are the one who jumped from james to John and here you are like a pharisee accusing me of something you are guilty of. I can quote any scripture to butress my point, you cant stop me. I have showed you.

I please, provide scriptural evidence that is what john 15 was saying.


it is either there is faith faith or there is no faith but how do you know there is no faith is it not when it lacks works? Fake means something that is not true or real, one may profess to have faith but if he has no evidence such perceive faith is fake. It is fake because such people profess to have it whereas they dont.



every work must conform with the law.
James obviously was talking about the 10 commandments which is part of the law.

James 2:8-11 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

James is talking of the works of the law.

This is the root cause of our argument. An understanding of what works is.


Read the new testament from the teachings of Jesus, the letters of Paul, then that of James.

There are different types of works;

1) There is the works of the law.

2) There is the works of the flesh.

3) There are works pertaining to obeying the instructions of Jesus.

4) There is the fruits of the Spirit (the direct opposite of works of the flesh).


James was referring to points 3 & 4 whilst saying Faith without works (3&4 above) is dead...

And that was why James asked if Faith without works can save.


If you erroneously believe James was referring to the works of the law, that is a big contradiction altogether.

Because you would be required to keep all the Laws of Moses in addition to having Faith in Jesus to be saved. That was the root cause of the first controversy in the early church per Acts 15.

Like I've always said on this thread, works that James referred to as an evidence of your Faith is not works of the Law, but works per point 3&4 above.

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Re: Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! by OkCornel(m): 10:30am On Jul 16
solite3:
you are the one who jumped from james to John and here you are like a pharisee accusing me of something you are guilty of. I can quote any scripture to butress my point, you cant stop me. I have showed you.

I please, provide scriptural evidence that is what john 15 was saying.


it is either there is faith faith or there is no faith but how do you know there is no faith is it not when it lacks works? Fake means something that is not true or real, one may profess to have faith but if he has no evidence such perceive faith is fake. It is fake because such people profess to have it whereas they dont.



every work must conform with the law.
James obviously was talking about the 10 commandments which is part of the law.

James 2:8-11 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

James is talking of the works of the law.

Do you now agree that the unfruitful branches in the Parable of the vine represents believers who heard the word but did not do them?

Jesus made it clear he was addressing believers in John 15 v 3...

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Re: Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! by LifestyleTonite: 11:26am On Jul 16
OkCornel:

I am not the one who is wrong here..

Perhaps James is very wrong to ask if Faith without works can save as per James 2 v 14 and 18...


Jesus must also be wrong to judge every man according to their works...rather than their faith in Him alone...


No matter how you want to twist it, Faith and works go hand in hand.

Typical Satanist. What you do is cling on to one misconstrued verse and try to use it to invalidate tonnes of verses thrown at you.

The guy has shown you countless verses that show that faith alone is what saves, not works. But instead, you keep clinging on to James 2:14-18. Can one single passage negate tonnes of passages in harmony? No. This clearly shows that you are the one misunderstanding that passage in James, or perhaps the deceiver in you is deliberatly trying to use it to confuse people.

If you read James 2:14-26, you will see that the justification by works spoken of there is not the one onto salvation but the one which you show to fellow men for them to truly believe you have faith. Read it carefully. Abraham's move to obey God by sacrificing Isaac was a justification for men to see Abraham's faith. But God already knew Abraham had faith in him. He just put Abraham to the test so the whole world could see his faith and learn from it.

Moreover, James can't be contradicting the Bible which says a person who does no work but has faith is justified before God. But before men, such a man will be doubted because he has no work to show for it.

I trust you to keep recycling the passage in James.

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Re: Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! by LifestyleTonite: 11:37am On Jul 16
OkCornel:


Guy, relax and read my first post on this thread.

Works alone cannot save. After all, Jesus said there would be many who will do wonders in His name, but He would still call them workers of iniquity, as He does not know them.


Likewise, Faith alone cannot save, I have mentioned this over and again from the book of James.

But Faith and works go hand in hand, you cannot separate one from the other.

It's like claiming to have the Holy Spirit without the fruits to show for it.

According to you, we and Jesus are partners in our salvation. We also died on the cross grin

Look, Jesus paid it all and to him we owe it all. We are saved by Grace, not by works.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The bold shows clearly that works play no role in our salvation. But your typical self will turn around to quote James 2:14 again, either cos you don't understand it or cos you are deliberately being a deceiver like Satan.

The below passage shows people that had works but didn't have faith. Did their works save them or get them justified before Jesus? No.

Matthew 7:21-23 (KJV)
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What about someone who has faith but has no work, Can faith alone save him? Yes, because the passage below says it counts him as righteous.

Romans 4:5 (KJV)
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


I just showed you how works without faith cannot mean salvation and also how faith without works still means salvation. But as usual, you will quote James 2:14 again like a robot. Satan really programmed you well grin

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Re: Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! by OkCornel(m): 12:13pm On Jul 16
LifestyleTonite:


Typical Satanist. What you do is cling on to one misconstrued verse and try to use it to invalidate tonnes of verses thrown at you.

The guy has shown you countless verses that show that faith alone is what saves, not works. But instead, you keep clinging on to James 2:14-18. Can one single passage negate tonnes of passages in harmony? No. This clearly shows that you are the one misunderstanding that passage in James, or perhaps the deceiver in you is deliberatly trying to use it to confuse people.

If you read James 2:14-26, you will see that the justification by works spoken of there is not the one onto salvation but the one which you show to fellow men for them to truly believe you have faith. Read it carefully. Abraham's move to obey God by sacrificing Isaac was a justification for men to see Abraham's faith. But God already knew Abraham had faith in him. He just put Abraham to the test so the whole world could see his faith and learn from it.

Moreover, James can't be contradicting the Bible which says a person who does no work but has faith is justified before God. But before men, such a man will be doubted because he has no work to show for it.

I trust you to keep recycling the passage in James.


And the first thing Jesus taught you is how to call others Satanists without any evidence whatsoever to show for it.

Anyways, Jesus was called something similar in his time.

Perhaps, we should also call James a Satanist for daring to ask if Faith without works can save.


Infact, Jesus should be wrong for judging EVERY MAN according to their works!


Jesus should be very wrong to allow God cut off barren branches from the vine...


Ride on...it's your type that believes faith with a sinful lifestyle would still guarantee heaven for believers....


Now ask yourself, on what basis did Jesus separate the sheeps from the goats on the day of judgment?.... By faith? Or by their deeds...

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Re: Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! by OkCornel(m): 12:18pm On Jul 16
LifestyleTonite:


According to you, we and Jesus are partners in our salvation. We also died on the cross grin

Look, Jesus paid it all and to him we owe it all. We are saved by Grace, not by works.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The bold shows clearly that works play no role in our salvation. But your typical self will turn around to quote James 2:14 again, either cos you don't understand it or cos you are deliberately being a deceiver like Satan.

The below passage shows people that had works but didn't have faith. Did their works save them or get them justified before Jesus? No.

Matthew 7:21-23 (KJV)
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What about someone who has faith but has no work, Can faith alone save him? Yes, because the passage below says it counts him as righteous.

Romans 4:5 (KJV)
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


I just showed you how works without faith cannot mean salvation and also how faith without works still means salvation. But as usual, you will quote James 2:14 again like a robot. Satan really programmed you well grin

You see why you are nothing but a blind and shameless accuser?

Earlier on this thread, I mentioned clearly works alone cannot save anyone... that even many will perform wonders in the name of Jesus, but Jesus will still call them workers of iniquity...cause He does not know them...


Also, James made it clear that Faith without works cannot save anyone!


Faith and works goes hand in hand and cannot be isolated from one another...


But... your urge to tell lies and be deliberately blind to my points on this thread was just too good for you to ignore...

Smh...
Re: Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! by LifestyleTonite: 12:34pm On Jul 16
OkCornel:


And the first thing Jesus taught you is how to call others Satanists without any evidence whatsoever to show for it.

Anyways, Jesus was called something similar in his time.

Perhaps, we should also call James a Satanist for daring to ask if Faith without works can save.


Infact, Jesus should be wrong for judging EVERY MAN according to their works!


Jesus should be very wrong to allow God cut off barren branches from the vine...


Ride on...it's your type that believes faith with a sinful lifestyle would still guarantee heaven for believers....

Now ask yourself, on what basis did Jesus separate the sheeps from the goats on the day of judgment?.... By faith? Or by their deeds...

You are a Satanist because you are opposing the gospel of salvation. That's exactly what Satan has been doing, preventing people from accepting g the good news of salvation by adding works fo it.

James asked a question, not a statement. That question has its answers in the same chapter and several passages in the Bible. Loom at the question he asked:

James 2:14 (KJV)
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Now, look at the answer clearly stated below

Romans 4:5 (KJV)
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Believers are judged according to their works towards reward, not condemnation. It's unbelievers that are judged towards condemnation. Once you believe in Jesus, you have passed from death into life.

John 3:18 (KJV)
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Faith with a sinful lifestyle means heaven for whoever holds such faith. That doesn't mean such a person won't go unpunished here on Earth for such. As long as you are a child of God, he will continue to chastise you for wrongs.

Hebrews 12:6
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

As seen above, God will never throw his children to the dogs or burn them in hell fire. Just as we humans can't do such to our children.

Mathew 7:11
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

God promised us eternal life for believing in his Son Jesus. He says we already have it for believing in Jesus.

Your last paragraph is typical of you and typical of Satan. Satan loves to throw doubt in the mind of believers by the way he questions the word of God.

Just as Satan asked Eve "hath God said?", which made her doubt God's word, same way you are asking me "Now ask yourself, on what basis".

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Re: Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! by LifestyleTonite: 12:39pm On Jul 16
OkCornel:


You see why you are nothing but a blind and shameless accuser?

Earlier on this thread, I mentioned clearly works alone cannot save anyone... that even many will perform wonders in the name of Jesus, but Jesus will still call them workers of iniquity...cause He does not know them...


Also, James made it clear that Faith without works cannot save anyone!


Faith and works goes hand in hand and cannot be isolated from one another...


But... your urge to tell lies and be deliberately blind to my points on this thread was just too good for you to ignore...

Smh...

@bold

James didn't make anything clear. He only asked a question which tonnes of Bible verses answered. But your blind self took his question as a statement.

Look at the question he asked as seen in the verse below

James 2:14 (KJV)
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Now, look at the answer clearly stated below

Romans 4:5 (KJV)
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Faith and works go well, but one saves while the other can't. Faith saves but works cannot save. No Bible passage says we are partner with Jesus in our salvation. Our works are just evidence of our salvation which Jesus accomplished already on the cross.
Re: Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! by OkCornel(m): 12:39pm On Jul 16
LifestyleTonite:


You are a Satanist because you are opposing the gospel of salvation. That's exactly what Satan has been doing, preventing people from accepting g the good news of salvation by adding works fo it.

James asked a question, not a statement. That question has its answers in the same chapter and several passages in the Bible. Loom at the question he asked:

James 2:14 (KJV)
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Now, look at the answer clearly stated below

Romans 4:5 (KJV)
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Believers are judged according to their works towards reward, not condemnation. It's unbelievers that are judged towards condemnation. Once you believe in Jesus, you have passed from death into life.

John 3:18 (KJV)
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Faith with a sinful lifestyle means heaven for whoever holds such faith. That doesn't mean such a person won't go unpunished here on Earth for such. As long as you are a child of God, he will continue to chastise you for wrongs.

Hebrews 12:6
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

As seen above, God will never throw his children to the dogs or burn them in hell fire. Just as we humans can't do such to our children.

Mathew 7:11
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

God promised us eternal life for believing in his Son Jesus. He says we already have it for believing in Jesus.

Your last paragraph is typical of you and typical of Satan. Satan loves to throw doubt in the mind of believers by the way he questions the word of God.

Just as Satan asked Eve "hath God said?", which made her doubt God's word, same way you are asking me "Now ask yourself, on what basis".

Bros, the book of James and Romans were written by different authors...

Besides, that means James was totally wrong to ask if Faith without works can save!


Now let us get certain things clear here:


1) I want to be sure I read what you typed correctly. Did you just say Faith with a sinful lifestyle can still save?


2) What is your understanding of works (i.e. results, fruits, evidence) James was referring to when he said;

i) Can Faith without works save?

ii) Faith without works is dead...

What works was James referring to?
Re: Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! by OkCornel(m): 12:41pm On Jul 16
LifestyleTonite:


@bold

James didn't make anything clear. He only asked a question which tonnes of Buble verses answered. Buy your blind self took his question as a statement.

Look at the question he asked as seen in the verse below

James 2:14 (KJV)
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Now, look at the answer clearly stated below

Romans 4:5 (KJV)
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Faith and works go well, but one saves while the other can't. Faith saves but works cannot save. No Bible passage says we are partner with Jesus in our salvation. Our works are just evidence of our salvation which Jesus accomplished already on the cross.

Please tell me what James meant by Faith without works is dead...

So according to you, a dead Faith can carry you to Heaven... Well done...
Re: Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! by OkCornel(m): 12:44pm On Jul 16
LifestyleTonite:


You are a Satanist because you are opposing the gospel of salvation. That's exactly what Satan has been doing, preventing people from accepting g the good news of salvation by adding works fo it.

James asked a question, not a statement. That question has its answers in the same chapter and several passages in the Bible. Loom at the question he asked:

James 2:14 (KJV)
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Now, look at the answer clearly stated below

Romans 4:5 (KJV)
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Believers are judged according to their works towards reward, not condemnation. It's unbelievers that are judged towards condemnation. Once you believe in Jesus, you have passed from death into life.

John 3:18 (KJV)
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Faith with a sinful lifestyle means heaven for whoever holds such faith. That doesn't mean such a person won't go unpunished here on Earth for such. As long as you are a child of God, he will continue to chastise you for wrongs.

Hebrews 12:6
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

As seen above, God will never throw his children to the dogs or burn them in hell fire. Just as we humans can't do such to our children.

Mathew 7:11
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

God promised us eternal life for believing in his Son Jesus. He says we already have it for believing in Jesus.

Your last paragraph is typical of you and typical of Satan. Satan loves to throw doubt in the mind of believers by the way he questions the word of God.

Just as Satan asked Eve "hath God said?", which made her doubt God's word, same way you are asking me "Now ask yourself, on what basis".

I can clearly see you are totally uncomfortable with the words of Jesus.

1) On what basis were the sheeps separated from the goats?

2) Why did Jesus say barren branches in the vine would be cut off and cast into the fire?

3) Why did Jesus say He would judge every man according to their works? Jesus said this while He was on earth and also to John in Heaven in the book of Revelation...
Re: Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! by LifestyleTonite: 1:04pm On Jul 16
OkCornel:


Bros, the book of James and Romans were written by different authors...

Besides, that means James was totally wrong to ask if Faith without works can save!


Now let us get certain things clear here:


1) I want to be sure I read what you typed correctly. Did you just say Faith with a sinful lifestyle can still save?


2) What is your understanding of works (i.e. results, fruits, evidence) James was referring to when he said;

i) Can Faith without works save?

ii) Faith without works is dead...

What works was James referring to?

@bold

As usual, you keep recycling James 2:14 because that's the only verse you can twist to suit your narrative. grin

Despite tonnes of verses which clearly explained to show how wrong your understanding is, you still stubbornly cling to James 2:14.

1.) Yes. Because the Bible says you are righteous in God's eyes as long as you have faith. In man's eyes, you are a sinner, but in God's eyes you are righteous.

Romans 4:5 (KJV)
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


You are righteous because Jesus took your sins and gave you his rightoeusness.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

2.) James was clearly talking about works which corresponds to the words of God from the Old Testament to the New Testament. I guess you have mistaken it to mean the works or fruits of the spirit which are:

Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Those are the fruits or works of the spirit, not your own works. Stop claiming the work of the spirit as yours. Your own works are how you obey God's word. What was Abraham's work? Abraham's work was him obeying God's word to sacrifice his son Isaac by going ahead with it. Our own work is us obeying the commands of the word of God in the Bible e.g thou shall not kill, commit adultery etc and also go and win souls. These are things we do to show we are saves. Guess what? If you don't do any of them after you got saved, which means you go about disobeying God's word, you are still counted as righteous before God and so will make heaven.

Romans 4:5 (KJV)
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Abraham had several concubines, a thing which is a sin before Mankind like you. But before God, Abraham was a righteous man because of his faith.

Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

So clearly, Abraham was justified before God by his faith, not his works.

Those who love to hold on to the phrase "Faith without works is dead" just to justify that faith and works are need for salvation, don't know how silly they sound.

A faith that produces no works is said to be dead because it produces no works. But that faith has to exist for one to even say it's dead. It exists but just not producing works.

Same way I point to a dead dog and say "that dog is dead". Won't I sound stupid if there was no dog there? But since there is a dog there, then my statement makes sense. There is a dog there but it's not alive to bark or move. In faith without works, there is a faith there, it's just not alive to produce works. But when there's no faith at all, then you can't even say "faith is dead".

Faith without works can't profit someone else. It's your works that makes people saved e.g living good, preaching etc. Abraham's works strengthens us today. If he had no works, we won't be reading about him today
Re: Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! by LifestyleTonite: 1:05pm On Jul 16
OkCornel:


Please tell me what James meant by Faith without works is dead...

So according to you, a dead Faith can carry you to Heaven... Well done...

Scroll up

grin
Re: Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! by OkCornel(m): 1:12pm On Jul 16
James 1 v 21-25;


21 So get rid of all uncleanness and [e]all that remains of wickedness, and with a humble spirit receive the word [of God] which is implanted [actually rooted in your heart], which is able to save your souls.

22 But prove yourselves doers of the word [actively and continually obeying God’s precepts], and not merely listeners [who hear the word but fail to internalize its meaning], deluding yourselves [by unsound reasoning contrary to the truth].

23 For if anyone only listens to the word [f]without obeying it, he is like a man who looks very carefully at his natural face in a mirror;

24 for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he immediately forgets [g]what he looked like.

25 But he who looks carefully into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and faithfully abides by it, not having become a [careless] listener who forgets but [h]an active doer [who obeys], he will be blessed and favored by God in what he does [in his life of obedience].



Having read the above, I wonder how a believer will still tell us having Faith with a sinful lifestyle will still guarantee one salvation...


Shall we continue to sin with the mentality that God's grace will abound? Tufiakwa...

As one walks in the ways of Christ and the Spirit of God, you turn your back on a sinful lifestyle rather than make excuses to justify it!

No wonder some people will perpetually remain spiritual babies and crawlers feeding on milk perpetually...
Re: Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! by OkCornel(m): 1:16pm On Jul 16
LifestyleTonite:


@bold

As usual, you keep recycling James 2:14 because that's the only verse you can twist to suit your narrative. grin

Despite tonnes of verses which clearly explained to show how wrong your understanding is, you still stubbornly cling to James 2:14.

1.) Yes. Because the Bible says you are righteous in God's eyes as long as you have faith. In man's eyes, you are a sinner, but in God's eyes you are righteous.

Romans 4:5 (KJV)
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


You are righteous because Jesus took your sins and gave you his rightoeusness.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

2.) James was clearly talking about works which corresponds to the words of God from the Old Testament to the New Testament. I guess you have mistaken it to mean the works or fruits of the spirit which are:

Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Those are the fruits or works of the spirit, not your own works. Stop claiming the work of the spirit as yours. Your own works are how you obey God's word. What was Abraham's work? Abraham's work was him obeying God's word to sacrifice his son Isaac by going ahead with it. Our own work is us obeying the commands of the word of God in the Bible e.g thou shall not kill, commit adultery etc and also go and win souls. These are things we do to show we are saves. Guess what? If you don't do any of them after you got saved, which means you go about disobeying God's word, you are still counted as righteous before God and so will make heaven.

Romans 4:5 (KJV)
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Abraham had several concubines, a thing which is a sin before Mankind like you. But before God, Abraham was a righteous man because of his faith.

Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

So clearly, Abraham was justified before God by his faith, not his works.

Those who love to hold on to the phrase "Faith without works is dead" just to justify that faith and works are need for salvation, don't know how silly they sound.

A faith that produces no works is said to be dead because it produces no works. But that faith has to exist for one to even say it's dead. It exists but just not producing works.

Same way I point to a dead dog and say "that dog is dead". Won't I sound stupid if there was no dog there? But since there is a dog there, then my statement makes sense. There is a dog there but it's not alive to bark or move. In faith without works, there is a faith there, it's just not alive to produce works. But when there's no faith at all, then you can't even say "faith is dead".

Faith without works can't profit someone else. It's your works that makes people saved e.g living good, preaching etc. Abraham's works strengthens us today. If he had no works, we won't be reading about him today


I have brought the words of Jesus here for you to dispute or agree...


1) On what basis were the sheeps separated from the goats?

2) Why do you have the barren branches in the vine cast into the fire?

3) Why was the man who was unproductive with his talent cast into outer darkness?

4) Why did Jesus say EVERY MAN would be judged according to their works?
Re: Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! by OkCornel(m): 1:27pm On Jul 16
LifestyleTonite:




2.) James was clearly talking about works which corresponds to the words of God from the Old Testament to the New Testament. I guess you have mistaken it to mean the works or fruits of the spirit which are:

Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Those are the fruits or works of the spirit, not your own works.

Put the devil to shame. Where did I say the fruits of the Holy Spirit is a believers' work?

Take it easy with the lies. Read my first post on this thread that clarified this. That same post was quoted by solite3;
OkCornel:


Note: The works I am talking of here is not that of the Law, but the fruits that manifests by having the Holy Spirit, and following His lead to take decisions.
https://www.nairaland.com/5211669/saved-grace-alone-filthy-doctrine/2#79668113
Re: Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! by OkCornel(m): 1:38pm On Jul 16
LifestyleTonite:


Abraham had several concubines, a thing which is a sin before Mankind like you. But before God, Abraham was a righteous man because of his faith.


To think I'm discussing with someone who is saying Abraham committed sin by having several concubines...


Didn't God even approve of this same concubine/polygamy arrangement when he rebuked David for killing Uriah to get Bathsheba? So according to you, God encouraged David to sin...

Infact Jacob also sinned against God for having Bilhah and Zilpah as concubines...


Smh
Re: Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! by OkCornel(m): 1:46pm On Jul 16
LifestyleTonite:


Scroll up

grin

You are a very deceitful person.

James asked a question if Faith without works could save. And the answer to his question was still in that same James Chapter 2, but you ran off to Romans.

Please tell us James was wrong to write these;

James 2 v 20-26 (Amplified version)


20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish [spiritually shallow] person, that faith without [good] works is useless?

21 Was our father Abraham not [shown to be] justified by works [of obedience which expressed his faith] when he offered Isaac his son on the altar [as a sacrifice to God]?

22 You see that [his] faith was working together with his works, and as a result of the works, his faith was completed [reaching its maturity when he expressed his faith through obedience].

23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and this [faith] was credited to him [by God] as righteousness and as conformity to His will,” and he was called the friend of God.

24 You see that a man (believer) is justified by works and not by faith alone [that is, by acts of obedience a born-again believer reveals his faith].



25 In the same way, was Rahab the prostitute not justified by works too, when she received the [Hebrew] [h]spies as guests and protected them, and sent them away [to escape] by a different route?

26 For just as the [human] body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works [of obedience] is also dead.

James clearly wrote in James 2 v 24, that Faith alone can never justify you.

Verse 22 clearly shows Faith and works go hand in hand...

Verse 21 and 25 also showed Abraham and Rahab were justified by works as well...

James 2 v 20 and 26 clearly says Faith without works is USELESS, DEAD!

Na dead faith this guy wan carry enter heaven?

I am eagerly awaiting you to call James a Satanist too...

Cc: Solite3, budaatum, jesusjnr, openyoureyes1

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Re: Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! by OkCornel(m): 2:00pm On Jul 16
James 2 v 20-26 (KJV version)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?


26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Re: Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! by budaatum: 2:20pm On Jul 16
OkCornel:


And the first thing Jesus taught you is how to call others Satanists without any evidence whatsoever to show for it..
I'm beginning to feel the faith of some is justification to do as they wish because it doesn't matter what they do, they are righteous. They sure do works, but not all their work is of the Spirit. They do works of the flesh and justify their so called righteousness despite so many texts to the contrary.

One of the so called anti-work verses would be the following.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

Except, as I have repeatedly mentioned, it is not an anti-work verse, as some pressume, but an anti-boast verse, which is much better explained in the parable of the widow's offering who came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a few cents. The difference being her giving was of the Spirit, while that of the much wealthier was to be seen by the crowd.

The question in the Parable of the Samaritan was “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” it may not seem so but it is the same as "what must I do to be righteous?" Except without doing work to understand, it may not seem so to some.

First, take the teacher who asked the question. He knew he had to work and stated the work too, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.” Work!

Would one wish to argue that the Priest and Levite had no faith? Only a lack of understanding would make one say so. The Priest and the Levite both believed and had faith, yet it was the pagan worshipping non-believing not faithful not born again nor regenerated unbaptized but doing good and shewing mercy Samaritan that Christ told the teacher to "go and do likewise". Was it not because of the work he did that Jesus said do likewise?

It can't be disputed that love is the most paramount lesson Jesus taught.

So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

The thing here is that Jesus emphasized not just work but plenty of very hard work, for he said do not just love for those who are lovable, but for those who are not lovable like ones enemies whom the natural inclination is to hate and detest which is even more and much harder work. Or is it that some do not understand that "to love is to work"?

Righteousness, itself, the definition of which is to walk or do things in the right way, and in this case, according to God alone, is to do work, for one can not be doing that which is right in the eyes of the Lord by doing nothing.

The righteous are those who God lives and is complete in. Those who God lives in will be imitators of God and will glorify God in their body by loving one another and their enemies too, which is work. For it is they who do these things that shall dwell in the tabernacle of the Lord, the home of the Righteous, while those who enter not through the narrow gate shall weep and gnash their teeth!

For this very very reason, make every effort (work!) to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. (All work!)

I'll add what I'd call a caveat to all this which is that the Lord likely gave different messages to different people as stated when John sent people to ask Jesus if he was the Messiah. "The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor." So we can't obviously be bearing the same crosses or understand equally, for what the Holy Spirit may tell one might not be understandable by another, but to those whom much has been given, so much more is expected.

May the Lord God be our Minister. Amen.

1 Like 1 Share

Re: Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! by OkCornel(m): 2:23pm On Jul 16
budaatum:

I'm beginning to feel the faith of some is justification to do as they wish because it doesn't matter what they do, they are righteous. They sure do works, but not all their work is of the Spirit. They do works of the flesh and justify their so called righteousness despite so many texts to the contrary.

One of the so called anti-work verses would be the following.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

Except, as I have repeatedly mentioned, it is not an anti-work verse, as some pressume, but an anti-boast verse, which is much better explained in the parable of the widow's offering who came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a few cents. The difference being her giving was of the Spirit, while that of the much wealthier was to be seen by the crowd.

The question in the Parable of the Samaritan was “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” it may not seem so but it is the same as "what must I do to be righteous?" Except without doing work to understand, it may not seem so to some.

First, take the teacher who asked the question. He knew he had to work and stated the work too, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.” Work!

Would one wish to argue that the Priest and Levite had no faith? Only a lack of understanding would make one say so. The Priest and the Levite both believed and had faith, yet it was the pagan worshipping non-believing not faithful not born again nor regenerated unbaptized but doing good and shewing mercy Samaritan that Christ told the teacher to "go and do likewise". Was it not because of the work he did that Jesus said do likewise?

It can't be disputed that love is the most paramount lesson Jesus taught.

So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

The thing here is that Jesus emphasized not just work but plenty of very hard work, for he said do not just love for those who are lovable, but for those who are not lovable like ones enemies whom the natural inclination is to hate and detest which is even more and much harder work. Or is it that some do not understand that "to love is to work"?

Righteousness, itself, the definition of which is to walk or do things in the right way, and in this case, according to God alone, is to do work, for one can not be doing that which is right in the eyes of the Lord by doing nothing.

The righteous are those who God lives and is complete in. Those who God lives in will be imitators of God and will glorify God in their body by loving one another and their enemies too, which is work. For it is they who do these things that shall dwell in the tabernacle of the Lord, the home of the Righteous, while those who enter not through the narrow gate shall weep and gnash their teeth!

For this very very reason, make every effort (work!) to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. (All work!)

I'll add what I'd call a caveat to all this which is that the Lord likely gave different messages to different people as stated when John sent people to ask Jesus if he was the Messiah. "The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor." So we can't obviously be bearing the same crosses or understand equally, for what the Holy Spirit may tell one might not be understandable by another, but to those whom much has been given, so much more is expected.

May the Lord God be our Minister. Amen.

A big amen my brother. You just hit the nail on the head...


Buda..it appears your post was hidden... I quoted it in good time though...

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Re: Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! by solite3(m): 2:30pm On Jul 16
OkCornel:


This is the root cause of our argument. An understanding of what works is.


Read the new testament from the teachings of Jesus, the letters of Paul, then that of James.

There are different types of works;

1) There is the works of the law.

2) There is the works of the flesh.

3) There are works pertaining to obeying the instructions of Jesus.

4) There is the fruits of the Spirit (the direct opposite of works of the flesh).


James was referring to points 3 & 4 whilst saying Faith without works (3&4 above) is dead...

And that was why James asked if Faith without works can save.
the law James is talking about is the law of liberty which reflects the law of moses.
The fruit of the Spirit is the work of the spirit in a believer.
Jesus commandment is the same as the law of liberty which is to love your neighbor as yourself. Mind you only a saved man can fulfill this law.
You contradict yourself. How does an unsaved man keep the commandment of christ?
You are putting the cart before the horse.


If you erroneously believe James was referring to the works of the law, that is a big contradiction altogether.
I do not errorneously think. The royal law is part of the law of moses.

Because you would be required to keep all the Laws of Moses in addition to having Faith in Jesus to be saved. That was the root cause of the first controversy in the early church per Acts 15.
so you see you are contradicting yourself. Which works can an unsaved man do to be saved? Mind you
He is unregenerated,
He can not obey God's law neither does he have the spirit of christ.

But you say such a man must do works to be saved, the question is what works?


Like I've always said on this thread, works that James referred to as an evidence of your Faith is not works of the Law, but works per point 3&4 above.

Go back and read my post compare it with your post and come back.
Works are evidence of salvation not a cause of salvation is that not what I have been sounding since?
Re: Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! by OkCornel(m): 2:38pm On Jul 16
solite3:
the law James is talking about is the law of liberty which reflects theaw of moses.
The fruit of the Spirit is the work of the spirit in a believer.
Jesus commandment is the same as the law of liberty which is to love your neighbor as yourself. Mind you only a saved man can fulfill this law.
You contradict yourself. How does an unsaved man keep the commandment of christ?
You are putting the cart before the horse.


I do not errorneously think. The royal law is part of the law of moses.

so you see you are contradicting yourself. Which works can an unsaved man do to be saved? Mind you
He is unregenerated,
He can not obey God's law neither does he have the spirit of christ.

But you say such a man must do works to be saved, the question is what works?



Go back and read my post compare it with your post and come back.
Works are evidence of salvation not a cause of salvation is that not what I have been sounding since?

Solite3, my first post on this thread made it clear that the works I was referring to. It is not the works of the Law!

The fruits of the Spirit (either of point 3 or 4 I spoke of regarding to types of works in the scriptures) has love as one of it's fruits through which the Law is fulfilled. Connect the dots and go figure.


You bumped in and said
solite3:
no one can be justified by works before God.

https://www.nairaland.com/5211669/saved-grace-alone-filthy-doctrine/2#80282505


Whereas James clearly mentioned Faith alone cannot justify you without works...and gave examples of Abraham and Rahab the prostitute at Jericho...


I have clearly mentioned it over and again on this thread, Faith alone cannot save, works alone cannot save...but both goes hand in hand... Just as James said...


Unless you're telling us James is wrong...


Faith without works is dead and useless...

As useless as the ungrateful man who did nothing with his talents and was punished for it...

As useless as the goats who were separated from the sheeps for having no works (obedience to the instructions of Jesus) to show unlike the sheeps...
Re: Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! by OkCornel(m): 2:49pm On Jul 16
solite3:
the law James is talking about is the law of liberty which reflects the law of moses.
The fruit of the Spirit is the work of the spirit in a believer.
Jesus commandment is the same as the law of liberty which is to love your neighbor as yourself. Mind you only a saved man can fulfill this law.
You contradict yourself. How does an unsaved man keep the commandment of christ?
You are putting the cart before the horse.


I do not errorneously think. The royal law is part of the law of moses.

so you see you are contradicting yourself. Which works can an unsaved man do to be saved? Mind you
He is unregenerated,
He can not obey God's law neither does he have the spirit of christ.

But you say such a man must do works to be saved, the question is what works?



Go back and read my post compare it with your post and come back.
Works are evidence of salvation not a cause of salvation is that not what I have been sounding since?


Did you just say the Law of Liberty James spoke of is the Law of Moses that brings sin-consciousness...


The Law of Moses that constantly reminded the Jews they cannot meet up to God's standard of righteousness and holiness is a reflection of the Law of Liberty?


Are you sure of what you just typed now?
Re: Saved by grace alone - A filthy doctrine of demons. Please beware! by solite3(m): 3:09pm On Jul 16
OkCornel:


Solite3, my first post on this thread made it clear that the works I was referring to. It is not the works of the Law!

The fruits of the Spirit has love as one of it's fruits through which the Law is fulfilled. Connect the dots and go figure.


You bumped in and said


https://www.nairaland.com/5211669/saved-grace-alone-filthy-doctrine/2#80282505
you are the one contradicting yourself. How can a man without the Spirit produce the fruit of the spirit?


Whereas James clearly mentioned Faith alone cannot justify you without works...and gave examples of Abraham and Rahab the prostitute at Jericho...


Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Mr twister, look at what the bible said Abraham believed in The LORD and imediately it was accounted to him for righteousness. God did not wait to see Abraham's work. Abraham's work was just a testament that he has been justified.
Rahab the harlot's faith was confirmed by her works.





I have clearly mentioned it over and again on this thread, Faith alone cannot save, works alone cannot save...but both goes hand in hand...


The theif on the cross had no work but yet he was saved does this not expose your heresy?

If the law of moses can not save no other commandment can.

No sir its either faith alone or works alone. It can never be the two.

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

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