I will be using Islam/Muslims for my argument here.

Muslims often claim that atheists are foolish because they believe they came from nothing (independent existence), while this is a false position of atheism they hypocritical believe in what they accuse atheists of.

Atheism position is lack of belief in the existence of God/s, that's all.

How we came into existence is unknown, atheists position or response to that is "we don't know", they are mostly agnostic in that view, so muslims should quit saying atheists believe we came from nothing (independent existence).

Now to muslims hypocritical argument for God.

While Muslims are going about calling atheists/atheism foolishness, they are actually the foolish ones and hypocrites. Here is their claim,

- Allah is an independent existence.

- The supreme being is infinite

> Their logical argument is,

1. Something comes from nothing is impossible and illogical, everything has a cause and must come from something.

2. Infinite regress or infinite universe is impossible, illogical.

> Violation of their logic into absurdity and hypocrisy,

1. Muslims violate their logic of "something must come from something" and "everything must have a cause" when they claim Allah is an independent existence, meaning God exist out of nothing, he came from nothing, pop into existence from nothing, they assume he's uncaused, the first cause. They exempt Allah from the logical premise "something must come from something" and "everything must have a cause". This is hypocrisy, irrational and absurd. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If something must have a cause then Allah must have a cause/creator. Simple!

We can as well argue that the universe pop into existence from nothing (independent existence) as we don't know how exactly the universe came into existence, we can apply the same claim for the argument of God to the universe.

Q1. So is it logical to say "something can come from nothing" and "not everything has a cause"?

2. Muslims claim infinite regress is impossible or the universe cannot be infinite because it's just impossible and we can't exist base on infinite chain. And when it comes to Allah, he is infinite, God has been existing for infinity(hypocrisy and contradiction comes in), if Allah has been existing for infinite then tell us how you arrive at that conclusion, how did Allah suddenly started creating? What triggered his thoughts?, I mean what was God doing before creation for infinity? Was he sleeping, frozen or non-existence? Muslims should explain this absurdity, paradox and hypocrisy.
If infinite regress and infinite universe is impossible then an infinite being is impossible. Simple!

We can as well argue that the universe is infinite base on a theory, before the big bang there's gravitational singularity or Initial singularity where the universe becomes infinite.

Q2. Is it logical for something to be infinite? And I don't mean God alone, I'm also talking about the universe and other known or unknown entity?

PS: We should know that the beginning of the universe and any event before the universe are theories and assumptions, same for God attributes, they are assumptions that are yet to be proven.

@Op

This table you are shaking is too big ooo


Just watch as they avoid this thread

OP, You really post a lot about Islam, is there something you are upset about? You seem to be fairly intelligent and rational, are you an atheist or an agnostic, or do you prefer to be undefined with respect to that?
what is your opinion of the Quran? be sincere. many atheists are sincere, they want the world to be perfect, they are upset with God. they want there should be no sadness, no sickness, no deaths.

snubish:
OP, You really post a lot about Islam, is there something you are upset about? You seem to be fairly intelligent and rational, are you an atheist or an agnostic, or do you prefer to be undefined with respect to that?
what is your opinion of the Quran? be sincere. many atheists are sincere, they want the world to be perfect, they are upset with God. they want there should be no sadness, no sickness, no deaths.

I'm an atheist.

Can you kindly respond to the premise?

Was the "master program in Microbiology abroad" "worth the money"?

Update please. It was 4 years ago.

saddler:
@Op

This table you are shaking is too big ooo


Just watch as they avoid this thread

Let me try my hand in this.

Firstly we have this idea and believe that the true Nature and being of God is unknowable or incomprehensible, so all hypothesis as to the nature of God are just assumptions.
The same could be said to the true Nature and workings of the universe which for the most part is still a mystery. With these facts out of the way.

God is believed to not be subject to what he creates and with this we could come up with the idea that God is beyond our space and time (in a higher dimension? {Because a hypothetical Being from a higher dimensional would not be subject to the rules of lower dimensions and could even create said lower dimensions and have omniscience over the created lower dimension}) if we claim God created both space, time, matter etc. To God the beginning, present and end are all one and the same. Simultaneously happening.

To address your first question: In a world/universe/existence with the same laws and rules we understand about our own currently, No it is not logical to say something could materialize out of nothingness. Not unless that something has existed and will always continue to exist (This would mean it couldn't have been created {which reminds me of that law of physics about "energy can neither be created nor destroyed..." so would that mean God's true being is infinite energy? IDK I'm just hypothesizing here})

Now the concept of infinity is something we can represent mathematically in the same way we can represent nothingness as 0, but these are things our minds still can't fully grasp as much as we can't imagine a colour we've never seen.

To address the second question: if that thing has, is and will always continue to exist in the same state, then Yes that thing could be considered to be infinite, but with this definition the universe can not be infinite because of entropy and the theoretical heat death of the universe.
{Ending up in theoretical physics or sci-fi territory here}

Religious people could be considered to be agnostic also (being unable to factually prove or disprove the existence of God) with the difference being that we are inclined or choose to believe and have faith {hence a reason it's called faith} because of signs derived from the most mundane of facts and experiences. Although I have to admit beliefs can & are taken too far every now and then.

Anything in a "{}" are just my internal thoughts and don't necessarily have anything to do with the argument.

IMAliyu:
Let me try my hand in this.

Firstly we have this idea and believe that the true Nature and being of God is unknowable or incomprehensible, so all hypothesis as to the nature of God are just assumptions.
The same could be said to the true Nature and workings of the universe which for the most part is still a mystery. With these facts out of the way.

God is believed to not be subject to what he creates and with this we could come up with the idea that God is beyond our space and time (in a higher dimension? {Because a hypothetical Being from a higher dimensional would not be subject to the rules of lower dimensions and could even create said lower dimensions and have omniscience over the created lower dimension}) if we claim God created both space, time, matter etc. To God the beginning, present and end are all one and the same. Simultaneously happening.

To address your first question: In a world/universe/existence with the same laws and rules we understand about our own currently, No it is not logical to say something could materialize out of nothingness. Not unless that something has existed and will always continue to exist (This would mean it couldn't have been created {which reminds me of that law of physics about "energy can neither be created nor destroyed..." so would that mean God's true being is infinite energy? IDK I'm just hypothesizing here})

Now the concept of infinity is something we can represent mathematically in the same way we can represent nothingness as 0, but these are things our minds still can't fully grasp as much as we can't imagine a colour we've never seen.

To address the second question: if that thing has, is and will always continue to exist in the same state, then Yes that thing could be considered to be infinite, but with this definition the universe can not be infinite because of entropy and the theoretical heat death of the universe.
{Ending up in theoretical physics or sci-fi territory here}

Religious people could be considered to be agnostic also (being unable to factually prove or disprove the existence of God) with the difference being that we are inclined or choose to believe and have faith {hence a reason it's called faith} because of signs derived from the most mundane of facts and experiences. Although I have to admit beliefs can & are taken too far every now and then.

Anything in a "{}" are just my internal thoughts and don't necessarily have anything to do with the argument.

Good you stated your position are assumptions which I don't have problem with, only if other muslims and theists can be honest like you.

The questions are mainly directed at Muslims that claim they know about Allah attributes and hypocritically fall into what they argue against, I want them to come and argue their claims.

And kindly don't equate a God that is said to transcend the universe with energy. Energy is confined in the universe.

Religious people are not agnostic (although we have agnostic theists), they are theists because they have faith God exist and know the attributes of God, they know God created the universe even though they can't prove any of their claim, it's base on faith not fact.

tintingz:
Energy is confined in the universe.

According to tingz who went to the universe and checked!

budaatum:

According to tingz who went to the universe and checked!

Energy is a property in the universe(space-time), can it exist outside the universe?

tintingz:
Energy is a property in the universe(space-time), can it exist outside the universe?

How am I supposed to know if energy exists "outside the universe"?

How much of the inside of the universe can I have possibly checked?

budaatum:

How am I supposed to know if energy exists "outside the universe"?

How much of the inside of the universe can I have possibly checked?

Where there's energy there's space-time, so no way it can exist outside the universe and if it does that "outside" will expand to become a universe(space-time).

tintingz:


Where there's energy there's space-time, so no way it can exist outside the universe, that "outside" will expand to become a universe(space-time).

How much space have you checked? What do you know about uncharted space?

budaatum:

How much space have you checked? What do you know about uncharted space?

Sigh. Ok

tintingz:
I will be using Islam/Muslims for my argument here.

Muslims often claim that atheists are foolish because they believe they came from nothing (independent existence), while this is a false position of atheism they hypocritical believe in what they accuse atheists of.

Atheism position is lack of belief in the existence of God/s, that's all.

How we came into existence is unknown, atheists position or response to that is "we don't know", they are mostly agnostic in that view, so muslims should quit saying atheists believe we came from nothing (independent existence).

Now to muslims hypocritical argument for God.

While Muslims are going about calling atheists/atheism foolishness, they are actually the foolish ones and hypocrites. Here is their claim,

- Allah is an independent existence.

- The supreme being is infinite

> Their logical argument is,

1. Something comes from nothing is impossible and illogical, everything has a cause and must come from something.

2. Infinite regress or infinite universe is impossible, illogical.

> Violation of their logic into absurdity and hypocrisy,

1. Muslims violate their logic of "something must come from something" and "everything must have a cause" when they claim Allah is an independent existence, meaning God exist out of nothing, he came from nothing, pop into existence from nothing, they assume he's uncaused, the first cause. They exempt Allah from the logical premise "something must come from something" and "everything must have a cause". This is hypocrisy, irrational and absurd. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If something must have a cause then Allah must have a cause/creator. Simple!

We can as well argue that the universe pop into existence from nothing (independent existence) as we don't know how exactly the universe came into existence, we can apply the same claim for the argument of God to the universe.

Q1. So is it logical to say "something can come from nothing" and "not everything has a cause"?

2. Muslims claim infinite regress is impossible or the universe cannot be infinite because it's just impossible and we can't exist base on infinite chain. And when it comes to Allah, he is infinite, God has been existing for infinity(hypocrisy and contradiction comes in), if Allah has been existing for infinite tell us how you arrive at that conclusion, how did Allah suddenly started creating? What triggered his thoughts?, I mean what was God doing before creation for infinity? Was he sleeping, frozen or non-existence? Muslims should explain this absurdity, paradox and hypocrisy.
If infinite regress and infinite universe is impossible then an infinite being is impossible. Simple!

We can as well argue that the universe is infinite base on a theory, before the big bang there's gravitational singularity or Initial singularity where the universe becomes infinite.

Q2. Is it logical for something to be infinite? And I don't mean God alone, I'm also talking about the universe and other known or unknown entity?

PS: We should know that the beginning of the universe and any event before the universe are theories and assumptions, same for God attributes, they are assumptions that are yet to be proven.

The uncaused causer is actually very valid, it puts an end to all the chaos. Assuming the uncaused causer was caused, the question would continue till eternity. There is no time for that.
Atheists like to prove to be intelligent and learned but for many of them the otherwise is the case.
OP I see you were actually born muslim, you are likely to have done some study of the Quran, what is your conclusion? I hope you are not one of those atheists that like to be seen as smart.

snubish:


The uncaused causer is actually very valid, it puts an end to all the chaos.

How did you know there's an uncaused causer? Did you assume this?

I assume this uncaused causer is Allah to you, yes?

Even assuming there's an uncaused causer there's still chaos in the universe.

Assuming the uncaused causer was caused, the question would continue till eternity. There is no time for that.

Then the question of where the uncaused causer came from is not relevant? Do you agree something can come from nothing? The uncaused causer being infinite is not an eternal question?

Atheists like to prove to be intelligent and learned but for many of them the otherwise is the case.

There are unintelligent atheists just like theists, there's no argument here.

OP I see you were actually born muslim, you are likely to have done some study of the Quran, what is your conclusion? I hope you are not one of those atheists that like to be seen as smart.

The Quran is not a divine book, it's a book written by men, a book full of myths and fairytales.

You can go through the Myths in the Qur'an in this thread >> https://www.nairaland.com/5095109/myths-quran

Referring me to another ignorant thread by himself. Most atheists suffer from an oversized ego, who they really worship is their own selves. Stories in the Quran are myths because you say so? Or because there are similarities with stories from other civilizations even though mankind are all of the same origin. What sort of closed minded reasoning is that?

snubish:
Referring me to another ignorant thread by himself. Most atheists suffer from an oversized ego, who they really worship is their own selves.

Lol, you asked for what I know about the Qur'an and I gave a thread I did about the Qur'an then you have a problem referring you to that thread related to your question?

Are you confused or what? What exactly do you wanna get?

Stories in the Quran are myths because you say so? Or because there are similarities with stories from other civilizations even though mankind are all of the same origin. What sort of closed minded reasoning is that?

So you never thought this stories are myths to you? I mean there are no evidences to back up their claims?

The people in the past were ignorant of most things around them they made up ridiculous stories, so I don't know what you meant by "civilization" in that context, care to elaborate?

So if I tell you an ancient story how winged monkeys flew up to the sky and start pooping stars, will you believe me?

tintingz:


So if I tell you an ancient story how winged monkeys flew up to the sky and start pooping stars, will you believe me?

You must have heard of Sun Wukong. With the right understanding, all that's said about him is true, but in the "run is run" mind it's a Disney [url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Monkey_King_%28film%29?wprov=sfla1]film[/url].

Though, not "believe it", but "understand it".

Sun Wukong, also known as the Monkey King, is a figure who features in a body of legends that can be traced back to the 10th century Song dynasty. He appears as a main character in the 16th century Chinese classical novel Journey to the West (西游记/西遊記) and is found in many later stories and adaptations. In the novel, he is a monkey born from a stone who acquires supernatural powers through Taoist practices. After rebelling against heaven and being imprisoned under a mountain by the Buddha, he later accompanies the monk Tang Sanzang on a journey to retrieve Buddhist sutras from "the West". Sun Wukong was able to gain immortality through 5 different means. All of which stacks up to make him one of the most immortal and invincible beings.

budaatum:

You must have heard of Sun Wukong. With the right understanding, all that's said about him is true, but in the "run is run" mind it's a Disney [url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Monkey_King_%28film%29?wprov=sfla1]film[/url].

Though, not "believe it", but "understand it".

Sun Wukong, also known as the Monkey King, is a figure who features in a body of legends that can be traced back to the 10th century Song dynasty. He appears as a main character in the 16th century Chinese classical novel Journey to the West (西游记/西遊記) and is found in many later stories and adaptations. In the novel, he is a monkey born from a stone who acquires supernatural powers through Taoist practices. After rebelling against heaven and being imprisoned under a mountain by the Buddha, he later accompanies the monk Tang Sanzang on a journey to retrieve Buddhist sutras from "the West". Sun Wukong was able to gain immortality through 5 different means. All of which stacks up to make him one of the most immortal and invincible beings.

I don't know where I said I've problem with good stories, there's nothing wrong with good stories, I love mythologies especially the Greek mythologies, I'm starting to like the Yoruba mythologies.

The problem I've with some claims is saying these myths/fairytales actually happen in history, now that's where I won't agree with anyone.

tintingz:


I don't know where I said I've problem with good stories, there's nothing wrong with good stories, I love mythologies especially the Greek mythologies, I'm starting to like the Yoruba mythologies.

The problem I've with some claims is saying these myths/fairytales actually happen in history, now that's where I won't agree with anyone.

That's the thing, myths are not stories, though neither actually happens literally in history.

I do understand your problem tingz. But as I've said over and over again. You seem to be the only "run is run" person here as you have not yet shown me any Muslim on here who takes the Quran literally.

budaatum:

That's the thing, myths are not stories, though neither actually happens literally in history.

I do understand your problem tingz. But as I've said over and over again. You seem to be the only "run is run" person here as you have not yet shown me any Muslim on here who takes the Quran literally.

Ok.