goalernestman:
and also people that was taken from Yoruba as slaves was taken from bight of Benin, Benin empire not Yoruba there was no name as Yoruba or Oyo in the world until 18th century.

Below is a legit map and they are hundreds of them drawn by different people before 19th century and it pictured out same kingdoms here please don't bring fake map the one draw by Yoruba or people after 18th century.

TAO11:


It's funny that on seeing my comment you immediately fled from your moniker to "guest". Wonderful!!

Anyways, you just joined the ranks of Bini liars whom I have rubbished as per the claims of artefact.

So, instead of merely claiming that Yorubas on Nairaland were lying, you could have simply demonstrated with evidence that they lied. Nay, you "dashed" a golden opportunity. Lol!


And lastly, since you requested to be proven wrong, please note that you've just been proven wrong (in my 2nd attachment above) on your claim that Yorubas were not on record prior to the 18th century.

TAO11:


Who sent you here so that I may roast you? Such person is your enemy, run away from them.

Anyways, I won't roast you.

I will only crucify you on your first claim, after which I will simply ask you to provide the evidence for your second and third claims thereby giving you the opportunity to realize by your own self that the statements are FALSE.

Here we go:

(1) Ewuare1 rained reigned in the 15th century from the year 1440 to the year 1473.

Don't take my word for it, take the words of your own Bini website https://www.edoworld.net/Obas.html which contains a listing of the kings of Benin kingdom from the first to the present.

See the first attached screenshot in case you're too busy to click the link.

Having now been exposed as a liar, and having endowed you with some proper education, note that it would be hard before anyone would take you seriously no more.

Always get your emotions right!


(2) Your second claim says that certain Benin bronze heads date to the 14th century, and that Yoruba bronze heads date to the 18th and 19th century.

You're not the first Bini on Nairaland to make this false statement. Two of your brothers namely Prolog3111 and gregyboy have made this claim before you.

But guess what, they are still searching for the evidence to substantiate this false claim since over two weeks ago when I sent them on the errand to substantiate their own claim.

Now join them on this errand, may be you would be the game changer.

But in case you become wiser than them during your search, and become repentant, and come to retract this false statement; then I will demonstrate to you that, in fact, the most extant Ife bronze sculptures have been dated by experts to the earliest of the 12th century (i.e. the 1100s) while the most extant Benin bronze sculptures (depicting use of beads) have been dated by experts to the earliest of the 15th century (i.e. the 1400s).


(3) Regarding your third remark, although you did not make your position clear as to whether or not you yourself believe that Yorubas were unknown prior to the 18th century --- that is, unknown in the 1600s or earlier.

Nevertheless, I would provide you with a piece of factual historical information. Please refer to the second attachment!

goalernestman:


the most extant Ife bronze sculptures have been dated by experts to the earliest of the 12th century (i.e. the 1100s) while the most extant Benin bronze sculptures (depicting use of beads) have been dated by experts to the earliest of the 15th century (i.e. the 1400s)

[s]I saw you post trash here lol who are this expert you claim people like you Yoruba's like bro you are not talking to a baby here[/s] give me names source not uknow expert as you put it.


[s]This same expert as you claims have be the source you people have been using to rewrite history and lie every where why Benin brings world fact you people brings unkow expert. Very funny people I wonder why people take you seriously here with this your unknown experts[/s]

goalernestman:


So what where the record they were

And also how did Ewura rain in 15th century you post 1440 which is more closer to 13th century than 15th century. Ewura never crossed 14th century bro.

And also I have see no evidence of you proving me wrong that Yoruba existed before 18 century all I see here that you posted is beating rand the bush

goalernestman:
the most extant Ife bronze sculptures have been dated by experts to the earliest of the 12th century (i.e. the 1100s) while the most extant Benin bronze sculptures (depicting use of beads) have been dated by experts to the earliest of the 15th century (i.e. the 1400s)

[s]I saw you post this trash above you think you are talking to a baby here Yoruba will never seems to amuse me[/s]

goalernestman:
[s]Benin bronze beads was saw as far back in 14th century European Netherland England France Portugal Arabs who came to Africa then saw it this year above black slaves that was taken from Nigeria then all saw and know this. But Yoruba bronze beads dated back in 12th century and was only dated and recorded by unknown experts lol Yoruba people I give una one hand[/s]

goalernestman:
soon igbos will say they started beads and bronz and theirs started in 8th century. Who will doubt them when there are unknow expert to back their claim

goalernestman:
I see many Yorubas here lying since with no fact let me remind you this.

Oyo, Yoruba, Yoruba bronze, Yoruba beads Yoruba territory, Yoruba map, land was known in the worlds from 18th century before 18th century there was noting like Yoruba in world map or anything related to Yoruba, people that was in west Africa guinea was known as Benin Ghana dahomey Cameroon or biafra.

Accept if you can prove me wrong with a fact not from Yoruba site or person or people born after 18th century

goalernestman:
You said i brought only map now you go research it yourself excluding map bring account if people that existed in the world before 18th century all mention Benin kingdom but non of them mention Yoruba or Oyo it not that Yoruba really never existed that time but it was not a nation it was just a community of Benin and a little part of Dahomey. this was the reason it was not recognize until 18th century. but now Yoruba will come online saying what was not a nation was an empire please do you know what an empire means.

Olu317:
@ goalernestman, it seems you are new to information or better still a very young lad. If you are in doubt, kindly go to your Edo Museum to view the photo of the Ooni's copper alloy that way dug out in Bini palace.


In perpetual shock do I realise that you have no idea of linear intellectual juxtaposition. Therefore, no attention shall be given to you until you go verify from National Museum in Edo state. In fact, I am disappointed that you don't know there is a National Museum in Edo State. . Wonders shall never end!

TAO11:


That young man is a rookie!

@goalernestman in case you're still lurking around in the background, find attached the figure of the Ooni of Ife (dated to the century) that was placed in the Benin kingdom palace as a symbol of the suzerainty of the Ooni of Ife over Benin kingdom.

The concept is similar to the modern idea of placing the official portraits of Presidents and Governors in official buildings as a recognition of their authority.

Nice one Olu317

TAO11:


Again, your willful ignorance is very thick.

Like I have schooled you earlier, the so-called Judy Evans is another random unknown layperson like your poor sorry self commenting on an everyday public online platform.

Stop being inferior to a layperson like your poor sorry self. Whatever the so-called Judy Evans wrote in her comment on the public online platform (including the supposed date and price of the "Benin artefacts" ) is only her wishful statement and thus unauthoritative.


Instead, you're expected to adduce an expert scholarly academic reference which dates the use of beads in Benin kingdom to the pre-Ewuare1 era --- in other words, to the 1300s or earlier, since Ewuare reigned in the 1400s.

It is only if you are able to do the foregoing that we can then discard the Benin tradition (which attributes the introduction of beads' use in Benin culture to Ewuare1) as nonsensical.

nigeriaschoolne:

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nigeriaschoolne:

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TAO11:
gregyboy

I have already given you a very detailed refutation to your foregoing comment in the Nairaland thread found at the following link:
https://www.nairaland.com/5314103/benins-first-educated-nigerians-dr/4#81452658


However, for the purpose of this particular thread here, below is an abridged version of the refutation:


You seek to establish the use of beads in Benin kingdom during the pre-Ewuare1 era (i.e. during the 1300s or earlier).

You seek to achieve this through the examples of indigenous Benin artworks which depict the use of beads, and which dates to the 1300s or earlier.


However, your attached screenshot of a Benin figure failed to achieve your desperate desired objective for the following reasons:

(1) Yes, the object is said to represent an indigenous Benin figure.

(2) Yes, the object is dated to the 1300s.

(3) But NO, it is uncertain if the object depicts the use of beads with any of its two necklaces.

This last point is the crux, and it is in fact not uncommon that early Benin artworks depict individuals adorning necklaces and body-bands other than beads, such as leopard's tooth necklaces and sometimes pieces of plain or twisted fibres (or ropes).

Examples of these other earlier forms of necklaces/body-bands (which later came to replaced by beads in later Benin artworks) are seen in the attached screenshots below.


In sum, you have failed once again to rubish the Benin tradition which claims that it was Oba Ewuare1 (1440 to 1473) who was responsible for introducing beads' use into Benin kingdom (see: here: http://www.edofolks.com/html/pub8.htm and here: https://africa.uima.uiowa.edu/topic-essays/show/4?start=1)


In fact, assuming that beads were used in Benin kingdom during the pre-Ewuare1 era (although this assumption obviously contradicts Benin traditions as shown above); it is absurd to think that such a highly prestigious and royal material as beads (whose use in early times was exclusively reserved for members of the royal family and the chiefs) would have found its way to the neck of a palace clown/messenger. Think again!

With the foregoing argument, it then becomes definitively established that the early Benin figure of a dwarf palace clown/messenger certainly was not adorning a bead necklace.


Furthermore, your attached Wikipedia screenshot helps nothing of what you seek to achieve.

Your Wikipedia screenshot mentions that the bronze/brass casting tradition started in Benin kingdom in the 13th century (i.e., in the 1200s).

It is strange how you think this statement helps you achieve your desperate and obviously false objective that the use of beads in Benin kingdom predates the Ewuare1 era.

May be you would explain how the statement helps to achieve your false goal.

However, it is important that I mention here that this same point of your Wikipedia screenshot has already been mentioned in my comments where I alluded to the historical fact that bronze/brass casting tradition was introduced into Benin kingdom from Ife during the reign of Oba Oguola (1280 -1295) --- that is, in the 13th century.

There is, therefore, nothing which you have written or posted so far which overturns, or even slightly challenges, any of the arguments I have consistently and repeatedly been submitting and defending since over a month ago.

gregyboy:


[s]The problem i have with you read with your eyes close you very wide read no doubt you still very blind because of prejudice or tribalism if i may say....
Whatsoever you intend to call what was on that sculpture neck i woukd love to head it...

In the old benin dwarfs were owned by the oba they were personal messenger for the oba... And yez they were Royal so they wore bead ...beads has hierarchy... The lower chiefs wears just single beads the higher chiefs wears cony beads upto the neck level which is similar to the oba....
The dwarf wore a single bead's because he was a lower in royalty for that schlpture of a dwarf to
Made it must have been dear to obas heart... Now look again

Compare that single round bead on dwarfs necks and compare it to a single beed of the cony beeds on the oba necks...

If you still blind to see it...then i have no choice to convince you anymore but leave you faith to you[/s]

TAO11:


Your blindness to truth is willful and self-inflicted.

The accompanying documents which you had attached some days ago clearly describe this metal sculpture of a dwarf as a palace clown and servant.

Yet you dared to associate such dwarf clown and slave represented by this sculpture with the word "royalty".

For God's sake, "royalty" is a word meaning "members of a royal family" --- Merriam-Webster Dictionary.

How on earth, by any stretch of the imagination, did you come to the conclusion that the palace dwarf clown and servant depicted by the sculpture is a member of the Oba's family?

Your desperation to push beads' use to the pre-Ewuare1 era (contrary to well established and strongly held Bini traditions) has led you to the foregoing unavoidable laughable contradiction. How would you get out of this?

In sum, as I have mentioned to you earlier:

(i) The mere fact that the dwarf sculpture depicts the use of two pieces of necklaces is not sufficient as proof that he adorns beads, especially when such conclusion is not entirely clear from the sculpture itself.

(ii) The fact that the sculpture describes a palace clown and servant establishes definitively that he wasn't adorning beads, as beads (in earlier times) are the exclusive preserve of the Oba and members of his family and the chiefs.

(iii) Moreover, I have shown (with images) in my previous comment that a number of some Benin bronzes clearly depict the use of necklaces, other than beads, such as made of leopard's teeth, or made simply of fibers.

(iv) Lastly, your second attachment here is irrelevant because, firstly, the plaque dates to after the post Ewuare1 era (Refer to: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/310752); and secondly, although some of the necklaces and collars shown in the plaque are not entirely clear, the middle figure very clearly depicts the use of a long beaded necklace.

This again somewhat corroborates the Benin tradition that beads' use was introduced into Benin kingdom by Oba Ewuare1.


Cheers!

gregyboy:



[s]Lol...you know nothing about the benin history youngman you know nothing about ewaure even 8f you have read it all you can know it more the people .....

Even after ewuares reign beads were alocated to warriors like the one i posted warriors in benin wore bead not because they arr off royal blood as you claim because they are under royal authorites the civil war in benin that occured during the 15c was a result of beeds giving to a palace chiefs wives by a criple .... This shows that beeds were alocated to anyone by the command of royalty and yes the dwarf wore beads the oba owns dwarfs any dwarf dear to the oba was. Given beads as rewards ....

Dont get it wrong this is the law in benin if you are not of benin decent you cant be given royal authority of any....but you could adorn with beads
if you claim the necklace on his neck was not bead i wonder what it was[/s]

TAO11:


Your blindness to truth is willful and self-inflicted.

The accompanying documents which you had attached some days ago clearly describe this metal sculpture of a dwarf as a palace clown and servant.

Yet you dared to associate such dwarf clown and slave represented by this sculpture with the word "royalty".

For God's sake, "royalty" is a word meaning "members of a royal family" --- Merriam-Webster Dictionary.

How on earth, by any stretch of the imagination, did you come to the conclusion that the palace dwarf clown and servant depicted by the sculpture is a member of the Oba's family?

Your desperation to push beads' use to the pre-Ewuare1 era (contrary to well established and strongly held Bini traditions) has led you to the foregoing unavoidable laughable contradiction. How would you get out of this?

In sum, as I have mentioned to you earlier:

(i) The mere fact that the dwarf sculpture depicts the use of two pieces of necklaces is not sufficient as proof that he adorns beads, especially when such conclusion is not entirely clear from the sculpture itself.

(ii) The fact that the sculpture describes a palace clown and servant establishes definitively that he wasn't adorning beads, as beads (in earlier times) are the exclusive preserve of the Oba and members of his family and the chiefs.

(iii) Moreover, I have shown (with images) in my previous comment that a number of some Benin bronzes clearly depict the use of necklaces, other than beads, such as made of leopard's teeth, or made simply of fibers.

(iv) Lastly, your second attachment here is irrelevant because, firstly, the plaque dates to after the post Ewuare1 era (Refer to: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/310752); and secondly, although some of the necklaces and collars shown in the plaque are not entirely clear, the middle figure very clearly depicts the use of a long beaded necklace.

This again somewhat corroborates the Benin tradition that beads' use was introduced into Benin kingdom by Oba Ewuare1.


Cheers!

gregyboy:



[s]Did you say royalty mean bloodline alone haha funny yoruba clown no wondwr the igbos call them slaves the hausa call ypu funny
Lets take a look at royalty meaning[/s]

TAO11:


Yes, ROYALTY refers to "MEMBERS OF a royal family". --- Merriam-Webster Dictionary.

I leave it to your imagination to decide if palace errand servants are also members of the kings family.



Furthermore, I hope that by your screenshot here you do not intend to insanely spin your howler and then claim that you meant a 'ship', or a 'boxer', or even an amount of 'money' when you referred to the Benin sculpture of the dwarf as a "royalty"

TAO11:


Yes, ROYALTY refers to "MEMBERS OF a royal family". --- Merriam-Webster Dictionary.

I leave it to your imagination to decide if palace errand servants are also members of the kings family.





Furthermore, I hope that by your screenshot here you do not intend to insanely spin your howler and then claim that you meant a 'ship', or a 'boxer', or even an amount of 'money' when you referred to the Benin sculpture of the dwarf as a "royalty"