MuttleyLaff:
I've tried before to let ThothHermes and/or Ranchhoddas understand that what we perceive as miracles on earth are actually rules, principles and/or laws of heaven and that when a miracle is constantly repeated or perfected, it becomes a process of nature, a normal state of affairs on earth.

I completely disagree.. im sure the mention monikers do too. A miracle I believe is bending the laws of nature.. today's science hardly bends the law of nature but exploiting it. Soitting on the ground, mixing saliva with sand and using this saliva-sand concoction to heal a blind man is simply unnatural such that todays sophisticated science cannot explain.
Turning water to wine with no natural principles followed us wgat we term a miracle.a miracle is not a "miracle" if it can be studied and repeated using the same principle as previously used by its inventor or pioneer while obeying the kaws of nature and without claims that a supernatural forces is behind it.

It has taken 2000 years to heal glaucoma, this is a miracle, but nit on the scale of jesus... saliva has no eye curing ingredients, nor does sand. So kindly explain how your saviour achieve such feats. Afrterall as a humble student and enduring believer, I suppose by now your master has revealed to you the power which he promised in the verse quoted by Johnny..

For example, the Thames Tunnel, which in my earlier posts, I erroneously had it confused with the Rotherhithe Tunnel, is the world's first man-made underground tunnel under a river built. It was used by pedestrians, was a shopping arcade and became a tourist attraction. Experts back then, thought that an underground tunnel underneath a navigable river is impracticable, and so, it was classed a miracle when and after, this tunnel was successfully constructed by Sir Marc Isambard Brunel. Whats the point here kkins25, the point is that, tunnels under rivers, are now ten a penny, and so thereby their constructions arent anymore seen to be miracles

careful study of nature, calculations, and hardwork made this possible. No holy spirut was conjured to achieve such goals. No fasting and prayer was needed. And certainly no devotion of ones life to any diety

I think your kind natured side made you leave out putting pink sheep into your permutations.

i wondered what your fellow believers in christ would have done to you if you dared make such assertions 200years ago.

Jesus' works were about bringing smiles to people, about giving people back their dignity, restoring the sense of pride in oneself etcetera

I agree.

Every parent wants to see their kids do well, wants to see them go on to do awesome things, wants to see them excel and if possible surpass their parents' achievements

yes indeed, most parents.

[/quote]John 14:12 is about a combination of quantity, quality and/or extent[/quote] yes, aslong as quality is the mist important part.

kkins25:
I completely disagree.. im sure the mention monikers do too. A miracle I believe is bending the laws of nature.. today's science hardly bends the law of nature but exploiting it.

Man exploited the law of aerodynamics to begin flying in the air. In the beginning, it was perceived a miracle "bending" the law of aerodynamics, but now apart for recent climate strike agitations and damage flying does to the environment, it became seen as natural and taken as a leisure right to fly and take to air, just like birds do.

kkins25:
Spitting on the ground, mixing saliva with sand and using this saliva-sand concoction to heal a blind man is simply unnatural such that todays sophisticated science cannot explain.

You dont know your limit(s)

kkins25:
Turning water to wine with no natural principles followed us wgat we term a miracle.

Dont worry kkins25, I understand you dont wanto know, it's not always easy to recognize our limits. So turning water into wine, is the highlight of a miracle you'll like seen done erhn? Have you ever considered or thought of a miracle for paraplegics, hmm?

kkins25:
a miracle is not a "miracle" if it can be studied and repeated using the same principle as previously used by its inventor or pioneer while obeying the laws of nature and without claims that a supernatural forces is behind it.

What was originally called and seen as a miracle, when constantly repeated becomes a normal everyday process of nature . I gave you an example, with Thames Tunnel, the world's first man-made underground tunnel constructed under a navigable river

kkins25:
It has taken 2000 years to heal glaucoma, this is a miracle, but nit on the scale of jesus... saliva has no eye curing ingredients, nor does sand. So kindly explain how your saviour achieve such feats. Afrterall as a humble student and enduring believer, I suppose by now your master has revealed to you the power which he promised in the verse quoted by Johnny..

A child has clothes as much as possible, but can never have as much rags as an adult. I can kindly explain that science has always copied, mimicked, make caricatures of God creations and events, but never repeat the scrupulous exact science God

kkins25:
careful study of nature, calculations, and hardwork made this possible. No holy spirut was conjured to achieve such goals. No fasting and prayer was needed. And certainly no devotion of ones life to any diety

Where do you think the wisdom to have the know how to achieve any and all of that came from, hmm? The answer tothat rhetorical question is, God.

kkins25:
i wondered what your fellow believers in christ would have done to you if you dared make such assertions 200years ago.

Dared to make what assertion 200 years ago?

kkins25:
I agree.

So Jesus has led by example and we are adjured to follow His lead, follow it to the best of our abilities

kkins25:
yes indeed, most parents.

So does God, our heavenly Father

kkins25:
John 14:12 is about a combination of quantity, quality and/or extent yes, as long as quality is the mist important part.

"Greater things" is what was mentioned, as in, of ability, quality, of an extent, amount or measurable amount of a property, like, intensity, powerfulness, seriousness, greatness considerably above average or normal

I think the error here is in thinking the adoption of paganism in Christianity is bad. If one thinks so then one must also deplore the adoption of paganism in Judaism, for despite it's one God, it obviously has others (the god of evil being one).

Some would argue that scientific ideas are paganism. Their understanding of the Bible is of a 6000 years old earth while scientific paganism says its much older. I'd rather be a pagan on such issues, with certainty that God will not hold it against me.

budaatum:

It can be found everywhere because of its significance. The discovery and understanding of equilateral triangles was a great achievement. At the time, it was like looking on the face of the gods. We, today, who understand more and better, are just not so easily awed as they used to be in those days.

That's false.

The equilateral triangle appears to have
been adopted by nearly all the nations
of antiquity as a symbol of the Deity, in some of his
forms or emanations, and hence, probably, the
prevailing influence of this symbol was carried into
the Jewish system, where the Yod within the triangle
was made to represent the Tetragrammaton, or sacred
name of God.
The equilateral triangle, says Brother D. W. Nash
(Freemasons Magazine iv, page 294), "viewed in the
light of the doctrines of those who gave it currency as
a divine symbol, represents the Great First Cause, the
Creator and Container of all things, as one and
indivisible, manifesting Himself in an infinity of forms
and attributes in this visible universe." Among the
Egyptians, the darkness through which the candidate
for initiation was made to pass was symbolized by the
trowel, an important Masonic implement, which, in
their system of hieroglyphics, has the form of a
triangle. The equilateral triangle they considered as
the most perfect of figures, and a representative of the
great principle of animated existence, each of its sides
referring to one of the three departments of creation,
the animal, vegetable, and mineral.
www.themasonictrowel.com/Articles/degrees/degree_3rd_files/the_equilateral_triangle_gltx.htm

budaatum:
I think the error here is in thinking the adoption of paganism in Christianity is bad. If one thinks so then one must also deplore the adoption of paganism in Judaism, for despite it's one God, it obviously has others (the god of evil being one).

Some would argue that scientific ideas are paganism. Their understanding of the Bible is of a 6000 years old earth while scientific paganism says its much older. I'd rather be a pagan on such issues, with certainty that God will not hold it against me.

God will hold it against you.

Like I showed you before even the ancient Israelites were warned by God to desist from any pagan custom and rituals.

MuttleyLaff:

^{Red arrow points to χιϛ (616), "number of the beast"
in the fragmented Papyrus 115}

Light years ago, when I was researching and trying to get some study on 666, was when I came across the alternate 616 number. The popped up alternate 616 number, then right there, just poured cold water on my 666 researching and spoiled the enthusiasm of further studying 666, that is why I tried bringing it to BlueAgent attention by asking him the question:
Are you aware, the fragmented Papyrus 115, states 616, as opposed to 666?.

In summary, of the almost 300 Greek manuscripts
containing Revelation, almost all of them state 666 as the
number of the beast. The two oldest papyri are evenly
divided in their reading, and over 80%of uncial
manuscripts hold the reading of 666.


https://www.endtime.com/blog/666-or-616-the-number-of-the-beast/

blueAgent:


God will hold it against you.

Like I showed you before even the ancient Israelites were warned by God to desist from any pagan custom and rituals.

They may have been warned but it seems they ignored the warning for there's an awful lot of 'paganism' in Judaism.

blueAgent:


That's false.

The equilateral triangle appears to have
been adopted by nearly all the nations
of antiquity as a symbol of the Deity, in some of his
forms or emanations, and hence, probably, the
prevailing influence of this symbol was carried into
the Jewish system, where the Yod within the triangle
was made to represent the Tetragrammaton, or sacred
name of God.

See. Even you know triangles and 'paganism' are in Judaism and just about every single religion.

What's funny, and typical, is you aren't bothering to find out why its so ubiquitous. Were you any good at maths, I wonder.

Here's a thread showing 'pagan', or correctly named, Greek ideology, creeping into Christianity.

You'd have to read some Plato to get it but here's a short piece on the topic:

Logos is the Greek term meaning “the Word.” Greek philosophers like Plato used Logos not only of the spoken word but also of the unspoken word, the word still in the mind -- the reason. When applied to the universe, Greeks were speaking to the rational principle that governs all things.

A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around 600 BC to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates the entire universe. Monotheistic Jews used Logos to refer to God, since He was the rational mind -- reason -- behind the creation and coordination of the universe.

Thus, John (the author of the biblical book of John) used a very special word -- Logos -- that was meaningful to both the Jews and the Greeks during the first century AD.
Greek Philosopher Plato – Logos

As you can see, Heraclitus was recognising the Word as a god 600 years before the Gospel of John was being written.


See also, Paul and his use of Greek Philosophy.

Even JWs know this to be true:
How Christendom Borrows from Plato.

And if you wondered, Plato was not only a pagan, he was described as a Virtuous pagan.

budaatum:

See. Even you know triangles and 'paganism' are in Judaism and just about every single religion.

What's funny, and typical, is you aren't bothering to find out why its so ubiquitous. Were you any good at maths, I wonder.

There was no a time triangles played a role in Judaism.
Judaism was Corrupted by paganism and God was displeased with the Israelites for allowing that.

budaatum:

They may have been warned but it seems they ignored the warning for there's an awful lot of 'paganism' in Judaism.

That does not make it requires right.

A water or food that has contaminates in it will still be classed as unsafe, no matter how long they have existed inside the food.

johnw47:


you mean your lying allegations that the pope is my pope
and that his catholic church is my church

sewer mouth false accuser beelzebubAgent of ™Absolutely No Understanding
and habitual lying:

your lying can only be matched by false jw's and others of satans mob:

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Those who find the truth hateful just hate hearing the truth.

blueAgent:


There was no a time triangles played a role in Judaism.

I really can't stand when people make assertions that have no basis in facts and that they can easily check for themselves because I can't work out if it's done because they do not know or they know but are lying.

The Star of David is two equilateral triangles. I'll leave you to do your own research.

budaatum:

I really can't stand when people make assertions that have no basis in facts and that they can easily check for themselves because I can't work out if it's done because they do not know or they know but are lying.

The Star of David is two equilateral triangles. I'll leave you to do your own research.

The problem is that you are trying hard to find evidence to support your argument rather than verify the authenticity of the facts you are advocating.

First King David has no Star, no where in the Bible is it written that David has a star.

Secondly Current Israel is not God's Israel of the Bible, this Israel have be setup by Freemasons inorder to fulfill their goal of building the 3rd temple.

I know that will shock you.


When you know and understand the level of deception the World have been lead to believe, you will know that all your facts and beliefs are just smoke and mirrors.

budaatum:

I really can't stand when people make assertions that have no basis in facts and that they can easily check for themselves because I can't work out if it's done because they do not know or they know but are lying.

The Star of David is two equilateral triangles. I'll leave you to do your own research.

The problem is that you are trying hard to find evidence to support your argument and preconcieved beliefs rather than verify the authenticity of the facts you are advocating.

First King David has no Star, no where in the Bible is it written that David has a star.

Secondly Current Israel is not God's Israel of the Bible, this Israel have be setup by Freemasons inorder to fulfill their goal of building the 3rd temple.

I know that will shock you.


When you know and understand the level of deception the World have been lead to believe, you will know that all your facts and beliefs are just smoke and mirrors.

blueAgent:


The problem is that you are trying hard to find evidence to support your argument and preconcieved beliefs rather than verify the authenticity of the facts you are advocating.

First King David has no Star, no where in the Bible is it written that David has a star.

Secondly Current Israel is not God's Israel of the Bible, this Israel have be setup by Freemasons inorder to fulfill their goal of building the 3rd temple.

I know that will shock you.


When you know and understand the level of deception the World have been lead to believe, you will know that all your facts and beliefs are just smoke and mirrors.

Well, we obviously have here evidence of triangles in Judaism, whether you accept it or not, and what you call paganism is obviously in it and in Christianity, as you yourself have seen and admit.

And honestly, I don't think you know enough about Freemasons apart from the conspiracies you seem to believe. In the end, they sure will enslave the less knowledgeable, and not just because they want to but because the less knowledgeable will always be slaves to those who bother to know more.

I think you think one believes, hence you "trying hard to find evidence to support your argument and preconcieved beliefs rather than verify the authenticity of the facts you are advocating", when I am only providing facts for your consideration. Please know buda does not believe!

Below is the Seal of Solomon. You may read up on it to see how far back triangles exist in Judaism.

budaatum:

Well, we obviously have here evidence of triangles in Judaism, whether you accept it or not, and what you call paganism is obviously in it and in Christianity, as you yourself have seen and admit.

And honestly, I don't think you know enough about Freemasons apart from the conspiracies you seem to believe. In the end, they sure will enslave the less knowledgeable, and not just because they want to but because the less knowledgeable will always be slaves to those who bother to know more.

I have friends that are Freemasons.

I declined the offer to become one.

budaatum:

Well, we obviously have here evidence of triangles in Judaism, whether you accept it or not, and what you call paganism is obviously in it and in Christianity, as you yourself have seen and admit.

And honestly, I don't think you know enough about Freemasons apart from the conspiracies you seem to believe. In the end, they sure will enslave the less knowledgeable, and not just because they want to but because the less knowledgeable will always be slaves to those who bother to know more.

It's obvious you don't know what you are advocating for.

Go and read Morals and dogma by Albert Pike and books by Manly Hall then you will get the real picture and not some wishful thinking.

God cannot I repeat associate his word with Paganism.

budaatum:
I think you think one believes, hence you "trying hard to find evidence to support your argument and preconcieved beliefs rather than verify the authenticity of the facts you are advocating", when I am only providing facts for your consideration. Please know buda does not believe!

Below is the Seal of Solomon. You may read up on it to see how far back triangles exist in Judaism.

Where is it written that it is the seal of Solomon other than in books written by pagans and Freemasons.

Those are the things you call facts.

blueAgent:


I have friends that is a Freemasons.

I declined the offer to become one.

And that's your qualification to speak on the subject? Lol.

Imagine if I said "I have friends who are Christians". Can you imagine how knowledgeable I might be about Jesus Christ the Messiah?

budaatum:

And that's your qualification to speak on the subject? Lol.

Imagine if I said "I have friends who are Christians". Can you imagine how knowledgeable I might be about Jesus Christ the Messiah?

Like I said before go and read those books I mentioned by Freemasons then you can have a clear understanding of what is going on.

blueAgent:


Like I said before go and read those books I mentioned by Freemasons then you can have a clear understanding of what is going on.

I have read tons of books for and against and about Freemasons, blue, so I'm not exactly ignorant on the subject, and can confirm that your recommendations are what I called conspiracies. As in statements with very little basis of truth. But that's besides the point.

Paganism was humans first conceptualization of gods, and its ideas exist in all religions with origins in antiquity.

Here's a thread on an ancient religion in Egypt. You might see how it influenced Judaism.

blueAgent:


Where is it written that it is the seal of Solomon other than in books written by pagans and Freemasons.

Those are the things you call facts.

They are still facts, blue, whether true or not. Just as the books you mention are facts too.
It's up to the discerning reader to separate the truth from the chaff. One must even do this with Scripture, because 'pagans' have inserted their 'facts' in it too, often to some devastating misunderstandings and consequences.

Here is an exercise in biblical understanding. Do not go believing any of it though.

budaatum:

They are still facts, blue, whether true or not. Just as the books you mention are facts too.
It's up to the discerning reader to separate the truth from the chaff. One must even do this with Scripture, because 'pagans' have inserted their 'facts' in it too, often to some devastating misunderstandings and consequences.

Here is an exercise in biblical understanding. Do not go believing any of it though.

The scripture does not support the idea that Solomon has a seal.

If the triangle and it's meaning and purpose were divine, pagans would still not be using it.

budaatum:

I have read tons of books for and against and about Freemasons, blue, so I'm not exactly ignorant on the subject, and can confirm that your recommendations are what I called conspiracies. As in statements with very little basis of truth. But that's besides the point.

Paganism was humans first conceptualization of gods, and its ideas exist in all religions with origins in antiquity.

Here's a thread on an ancient religion in Egypt. You might see how it influenced Judaism.

I laugh either you don't read any book on Freemasons or you lack understanding.

Let me ask you how do you know that something is real and not fricition?

blueAgent:


The scripture does not support the idea that Solomon has a seal.

If the triangle and it's meaning and purpose were divine, pagans would still not be using it.

You mix up far too many things for even you to understand what it is that you argue. You might have noted that I keep putting paganism in parentheses. Its to point out that its meaning is so broad and needs defining. You, for instance might not include scientists in your definition, but I could.

'Paganism', as you call it, has infiltrated all ancient religions, is the point here, and the triangle is a clear example, whether rightly or wrongly. It is afterall a fundamental basis of a triune God which has resulted in the Trinity.

And 'pagans' still use it.
https://www.learnreligions.com/pagan-and-wiccan-symbols-4123036

blueAgent:


I laugh either you don't read any book on Freemasons or you lack understanding.

If you knew what you speak of, you'd know where my siggy comes from.

blueAgent:
Let me ask you how do you know that something is real and not ficition?

I do not just accept a thing to be true because someone wrote it in a book. Its why one must read many books to determine the truth, and not just live on bread alone as some do.

I know a thing is real by applying my senses to it to determine. Its why God gave me them and why Jesus made mud and rubbed it in my eyes so that I can use my senses and see.

blueAgent:



Those who find the truth hateful just hate hearing the truth.

sewer mouth false accuser beelzebubAgent of ™Absolutely No Understanding
and habitual lying:

oh duh, talking about yourself again beelze

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

budaatum:

If you knew what you speak of, you'd know where my siggy comes from.


I do not just accept a thing to be true because someone wrote it in a book. Its why one must read many books to determine the truth, and not just live on bread alone as some do.

I know a thing is real by applying my senses to it to determine. Its why God gave me them and why Jesus made mud and rubbed it in my eyes so that I can use my senses and see.

Then you have a lot more books to read .

budaatum:

You mix up far too many things for even you to understand what it is that you argue. You might have noted that I keep putting paganism in parentheses. Its to point out that its meaning is so broad and needs defining. You, for instance might not include scientists in your definition, but I could.

'Paganism', as you call it, has infiltrated all ancient religions, is the point here, and the triangle is a clear example, whether rightly or wrongly. It is afterall a fundamental basis of a triune God which has resulted in the Trinity.

And 'pagans' still use it.
https://www.learnreligions.com/pagan-and-wiccan-symbols-4123036

How is science paganism?

That's were you keep getting it wrong you unable to see the difference between God's word and pagan tales.

God is not a triune.

www.trinitytruth.org/