Demmzy15:


-Was it not Jesus that said he didn't come for peace but Sword? Is Sword used for cutting suya?

-Was is it not this same Christ that commanded his followers to sell their cloaks and buy swords? What are swords for?

-Was is it not this same guy that claimed according to Luke 19:27, that his enemies that don't accept his rule would be brought and slaughtered?

-Was is it not this same Jesus that was the God of the old testament that commanded nasty wars which led to massacres of thousands?

And what would Jesus do to unbelievers in the second coming? Shower them Roses?

You're a joke mehn, this is dumb tbh



So wars sanctified by God's representative on Earth (Pope) isnt a religious war? Crusades whereby you killed thousands of Muslims, Jews, and even Christians isn't a religious one? The funny this is, while slaughtering people, you Christians were shouting "God wills it" just as how some Jihadists shout "God is great" whilst killing and maiming innocent soul.

The British empire was a Christian empire just as how Spanish and Portuguese (another Christian empire responsible for spreading Christianity and killing millions), they spread Christianity after conquering the people. How do you think Christianity came into Nigeria?



David, Moses, Abraham and many other Prophets fought, so you're indirectly attacking them if you attack Prophet Muhammad for providing for his people who were persecuted and driven from their homes. Their properties sold by different tribes in which the Muslims had to fight.

Rubbish!

fortran12:

Let me pick up all your points one by one
The verses you quoted are all out of context.

Who made the pope God's rep on earth? Which bible verse supports or empowers him?

The crusades you mentioned are a response to all the Muslim raids.

And it was not even successful cos they did not recover as much territory

You claim Mohammed was driven out of his home etc. Mohammad was the aggressor. He conquered other lands and enslaved people.

The verses u quoted I will reply them one at a time

It's simple compare the lives of Jesus and Mohammed and tell me who is a role model for u

Demmzy15:


Give me context then!



That's what Christians called him before you guys split



Which was why you had to kill Muslims, Jews and even other Christians in thousands? You didn't even stop there, y'all ate the dead bodies of Muslims. And what raid are you even talking about? If the crusades were about Muslims why then did you Christians attack a Christian city Constantinople killing fellow Christians, raping and looting the city, something Muslims would never do?

I need reference to this statement cos i know that the Muslims invaded Constantinople and changed its name to Istanbul. The crusades were a response to all the raids. Islam started in Mecca and how do you think it spread? By violence, it spread via Jihad in

Africa 14 million were sent to the Islamic nations of North Africa and the Middle East and an estimated death of about 120 million people. Islam ran the wholesale slave trade in Africa.
** [Thomas Sowell, Race and Culture, BasicBooks, 1994, p. 188
** [Woman’s Presbyterian Board of Missions, David Livingstone, p. 62, 1888]

Asia Minor
A rough estimate by Raphael Moore in History of Asia Minor is that another 50 million died in wars by jihad.

Hindus
Koenard Elst in Negationism in India gives an estimate of 80 million Hindus killed in the total jihad against India. [Koenard Elst, Negationism in India, Voice of India, New Delhi, 2002, pg. 34.]

Buddhists
Buddhists do not keep up with the history of war. Keep in mind that in jihad only Christians and Jews were allowed to survive as dhimmis (servants to Islam) everyone else had to convert or die. Jihad killed the Buddhists in Turkey, Afghanistan, along the Silk Route, and in India. The total is roughly 10 million. [David B. Barrett, Todd M. Johnson, World Christian Trends AD 30-AD 2200, William Carey Library, 2001, p. 230, table 4-1



It was doomed to fail because God was on the side of Muslims.



You don't have sense to be honest, go and read about how Muhammad and his followers were persecuted, killed and chased out of their homes. Read about how their properties they left behind was sold off

Muhammad and his followers were persecuted in Mecca so why go and invade other people's lands just because you felt u saw an angel in a cave

I await your responses in due time



Of course I'll go for Muhammad Because it makes more sense. I'll give you an example, Jesus claimed if someone slapped you, you should turn the other cheek. We know that doesn't make sense, we humans can't do that no matter how godly we claim to be. But Muhammad solution is, if someone were to slap or hurt you, you have 3 options:

1. Slap the person back

2. Forgive him (which is the Best BTW)

3. Collect blood money (he's to pay a certain amount to you)

And worse is, you're comparing a god to man

fortran12:

Yes . as long as you don't speculate either

Demmzy15:
Firstly,

1. None of the 4 Gospels mentioned any disciples during the crucifixion, rather it mentioned Then everyone deserted him and fled. Mark 14:50 (Matthew 26:56)

2. The gospels however mentioned that Peter followed him but after being identified thrice and denying thrice, it was unlikely he continued to hang around. No evidence for this as well.

3. The gospels (Mathew and Mark) however mentioned that in Mark 15:29-30, those who passed by and hurled insults at him and told him to come down from the cross.

Matthew 27:39-42 mentioned people, priest and the elders mock Jesus, and shout at him while he is hanging on the cross: "He saved others; let Him save Himself if He is the Christ, the chosen of God."

From the above, we can deduce that all those who witnessed it were haters. People who despised the man on the cross, whether they were ordinary people, soldiers, priests and teachers.

4. Now to the good guys that witnessed it, Mathew and Mark mentioned many women were there watching from A DISTANCE. I quote:

And many women who had come from Galilee with Jesus to care for him were watching from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary (the mother of James and Joseph), and the mother of James and John, the sons of Zebedee. Mathew 27:55-57

This shows you that those who were actually present during the crucifixion were bad people and non of the good guys were there. Luke also agrees that his "acquaintances and women were watching from afar" no mention of disciples.

5. However, John contradicts Mathew and Mark and mentions that of course a disciple John and some women were closeby (John 19:25-26). The problem however is, the John is "John the Apostle" and he's different from "John the Evangelist", John the Apostle didn't write the book of John but John the Apostle who wasn't a disciple, so we don't have his (John the Apostle) account. The shocking thing is, the book of John was written later around 80 years after the crucifixion.

So a problem lies for you, if you were to accept The testimony of according to John never witnessed it or wasn't even present, then you'll have to conclude Mark, Mathew and Luke were either mistaken or liars for their testimonies.

Demmzy15:


-Was it not Jesus that said he didn't come for peace but Sword? Is Sword used for cutting suya?

If you read the entire chapter he was talking about people who are worthy of him. He explained what he meant by the statement he made.
He said He didn’t come to bring peace but a sword is because He knew there would be contention between those who believe in Him and those who don’t. This has caused families to be divided, and has even been the reason wars have begun.

-Was is it not this same Christ that commanded his followers to sell their cloaks and buy swords? What are swords for?
that verse in particular was for a prophecy in Isaiah 53:12 to be fulfilled.

-Was is it not this same guy that claimed according to Luke 19:27, that his enemies that don't accept his rule would be brought and slaughtered?

If you read the entire chapter he was telling them a parable, and not referring to himself.

-Was is it not this same Jesus that was the God of the old testament that commanded nasty wars which led to massacres of thousands?
So you accept Jesus is God abi? Cool. Give me reference to which war you are talking about cos at that time alot of wars were fought and it was the order of the day.


And what would Jesus do to unbelievers in the second coming? Shower them Roses?
Give me reference so I can answer. be specific


You're a joke mehn, this is dumb tbh



So wars sanctified by God's representative on Earth (Pope) isnt a religious war? Crusades whereby you killed thousands of Muslims, Jews, and even Christians isn't a religious one? The funny this is, while slaughtering people, you Christians were shouting "God wills it" just as how some Jihadists shout "God is great" whilst killing and maiming innocent soul.

The British empire was a Christian empire just as how Spanish and Portuguese (another Christian empire responsible for spreading Christianity and killing millions), they spread Christianity after conquering the people. How do you think Christianity came into Nigeria?



David, Moses, Abraham and many other Prophets fought, so you're indirectly attacking them if you attack Prophet Muhammad for providing for his people who were persecuted and driven from their homes. Their properties sold by different tribes in which the Muslims had to fight.

Rubbish!

Demmzy15:
Numbers 31:17-18 King James Version (KJV)
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Jesus is a terrorist, rapist and a bandit. Look at the command he gave Moses, another terrorist psychopath!

true2god:
[s]You are committing shirk by calling Jesus (PBUH) a terrorist. Jesus, unlike the rasool, never commanded banditry or advocated such. Moses, Israel and their neighbors were at war, and as a man I wont approve of what Moses did. Muslims will never condemn what mohammed, the rasool of allah, did.[/s]

fortran12:


I will judge a person based on who their leader is, a Christian is a person who behaves like Christ so as a Muslim is a follower of Mohammed. If a person does what contradicts Mohammed and claims to be a muslim, I will say he does not represent Mohammed hence he is false, the same logic applies to a Christian.

You say Christians were killing 'millions' to spread Christianity gimme reference to this. Christianity spread to Nigeria via missionaries

Demmzy15:


But isn't it ironic that you compare Muhammad to a god? I've given you evidences from the Bible on how violent Jesus is. You're yet to clear that up.



Lemme give you one https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years%27_War

Of course it's missionaries that spread it, but not until we were conquered by the British Niger company. The Spanish also conquered the Mexicans and then it's missionaries spread Christianity amongst them

fortran12:


I will still quote to you the gospel of John. It was written based on the testimony of John the beloved who was an apostle of Jesus. John also wrote the book of revelations. Where ever you see the phrase " the disciple who Jesus loved" that is John.

Other sources that day Jesus was crucified-
Jewish source- talmud, b sanhedrin 43a : on the Eve of the passover, yeshu ( Jesus) was hanged( or crucified) ... Since there was nothing brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the passover.

Evidence from Roman sources:
Cornelius Tactius in his Annals, XV 44: Christus ... Was executed at the hands of the procurator Pontious Pilate

Lucian of Samosata: Christ was the man who was crucified in Palestine.

I have given u biblical as well as secular proof that Jesus was crucified.

You can look up these sources.

fortran12:


Check the former post I did. I merged with your comments mistakenly

Demmzy15:
Biblical Jesus is a terrorist, I'm in my house come and beat me.

Demmzy15:


It's obvious you didn't read my reply as I showed that the verse is a problem for you because it nullifies the accounts of Like, Mark and Matthew. And again, the John being referred here is 'John the Apostle' and not 'John the Evangelist' the writer of the Gospel. There's no account from John the Apostle, if you witnessed something, you ought to report it.



Bro, you need to stick to the Bible and not outside sources. I have outside sources which mentions that the people thought it was Jesus but another man just as the Qur'an mentioned. It's funny you're quoting from the Talmud, a book known to have cursed Jesus and his mother. The writers of the Talmud were people who hated Jesus which makes sense that they thought he was crucified whereas God answered his prayer and he was saved from death.



Look at my own scriptural evidences too:

1. Gospel of Basilides:

He appeared on earth as a man and performed miracles. Thus he himself did not suffer. Rather, a certain Simon of Cyrene was compelled to carry his cross for him. It was he who was ignorantly and erroneously crucified, being transfigured by him, so that he might be thought to be Jesus. Moreover, Jesus assumed the form of Simon, and stood by laughing at them. Kelhoffer, James A. (2014).
Conceptions of "Gospel" and Legitimacy in Early Christianity. Mohr Siebeck. p. 80. ISBN 9783161526367.

2. Second Treatise of the Great Seth

For my death, which they think happened, (happened) to them in their error and blindness, since they nailed their man unto their death... It was another, their father, who drank the gall and the vinegar; it was not I. They struck me with the reed; it was another, Simon, who bore the cross on his shoulder. It was another upon Whom they placed the crown of thorns... And I was laughing at their ignorance.
Ehrman, Bart (2003). Lost Scriptures. Oxford: Oxford University Press. pp. 82–86.

3. Acts of John

“Therefore I have suffered none of the things which they will say of me: that suffering which I showed to you..., I wish it to be called a mystery. For what you are, you see that I showed you; but what I am, that I alone know, and no one else… As for seeing me as I am in reality, I have told you this is impossible unless you are able to see me as my kinsman. You hear that I suffered, yet I suffered not; that I suffered not, yet I did suffer, that I was pierced, yet was I not wounded; hanged, and I was not hanged; that blood flowed from me, yet it did not flow; and, in a word, those things that they say of me I did not endure, and the things that they do not say those I suffered.”

Chapter 101 as translated by Bart Harman

I leave it at here, and besides some Early Christian sects believed Jesus was never crucified like the Ebionites.

And can you explain to me why the crucifixion is even necessary? Why even after dying you still consider Jesus to be God

Demmzy15:


It's obvious you didn't read my reply as I showed that the verse is a problem for you because it nullifies the accounts of Like, Mark and Matthew. And again, the John being referred here is 'John the Apostle' and not 'John the Evangelist' the writer of the Gospel. There's no account from John the Apostle, if you witnessed something, you ought to report it.

Proof of the 3 Johns? why cant they all be one person?

Bro, you need to stick to the Bible and not outside sources. I have outside sources which mentions that the people thought it was Jesus but another man just as the Qur'an mentioned. It's funny you're quoting from the Talmud, a book known to have cursed Jesus and his mother. The writers of the Talmud were people who hated Jesus which makes sense that they thought he was crucified whereas God answered his prayer and he was saved from death.

Why do I need only the Bible? If its history other sources should record it. So sticking to the Bible is good, other sources should confirm what the bible says. This makes the claim stronger. If all the sources I quoted claim the same thing, It means it happened.


Look at my own scriptural evidences too:

1. Gospel of Basilides:

He appeared on earth as a man and performed miracles. Thus he himself did not suffer. Rather, a certain Simon of Cyrene was compelled to carry his cross for him. It was he who was ignorantly and erroneously crucified, being transfigured by him, so that he might be thought to be Jesus. Moreover, Jesus assumed the form of Simon, and stood by laughing at them. Kelhoffer, James A. (2014).
Conceptions of "Gospel" and Legitimacy in Early Christianity. Mohr Siebeck. p. 80. ISBN 9783161526367.


2. Second Treatise of the Great Seth

For my death, which they think happened, (happened) to them in their error and blindness, since they nailed their man unto their death... It was another, their father, who drank the gall and the vinegar; it was not I. They struck me with the reed; it was another, Simon, who bore the cross on his shoulder. It was another upon Whom they placed the crown of thorns... And I was laughing at their ignorance.
Ehrman, Bart (2003). Lost Scriptures. Oxford: Oxford University Press. pp. 82–86.

3. Acts of John

“Therefore I have suffered none of the things which they will say of me: that suffering which I showed to you..., I wish it to be called a mystery. For what you are, you see that I showed you; but what I am, that I alone know, and no one else… As for seeing me as I am in reality, I have told you this is impossible unless you are able to see me as my kinsman. You hear that I suffered, yet I suffered not; that I suffered not, yet I did suffer, that I was pierced, yet was I not wounded; hanged, and I was not hanged; that blood flowed from me, yet it did not flow; and, in a word, those things that they say of me I did not endure, and the things that they do not say those I suffered.”

Chapter 101 as translated by Bart Harman

I leave it at here, and besides some Early Christian sects believed Jesus was never crucified like the Ebionites.

And can you explain to me why the crucifixion is even necessary? Why even after dying you still consider Jesus to be God

true2god:
Why are you quoting drunkards and atheist to validate your argument?

fortran12:
If you read the entire chapter he was talking about people who are worthy of him. He explained what he meant by the statement he made.
He said He didn’t come to bring peace but a sword is because He knew there would be contention between those who believe in Him and those who don’t. This has caused families to be divided, and has even been the reason wars have begun.

that verse in particular was for a prophecy in Isaiah 53:12 to be fulfilled.

If you read the entire chapter he was telling them a parable, and not referring to himself.

So you accept Jesus is God abi? Cool. Give me reference to which war you are talking about cos at that time alot of wars were fought and it was the order of the day.

Give me reference so I can answer. be specific

fortran12:

Bart is not a Christian

There a several Gnostic books and they are not reliable since they did not make it into the Bible, I gave secular sources that reported Jesus crucifixion as a event, this makes it even more true.

I can explain the crucixifion, Jesus was foretold in the old testament and all the prophecies had to come to pass, that is why the cross was necessary.
Sin was a problem of the world, the only way to pay for sin was death, someone had to die for sins he committed. But God cos of love offered himself to die to take care of sin, and if you believe in him, the problem of sin is solved for you. This is why Jesus came to earth. God cos of love offered himself for the ones he love. Other religions accept the concept of sin but need you to do more deeds to appease God or come closer to God, but the only way to pay for sin is death not doing good deeds. No man is capable of this that is why God made a way out via his son, just accept what he did on the cross.

Demmzy15:


Don't just assume, he was a Christian for a long time, it was the study of the Bible that made him agnostic-atheist, a path true2god is unfortunately trending. Here's a Wikipedia page on him and read about him https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_D._Ehrman



Firstly, those books didn't make it into the Bible not because they were unreliable but because they didn't go inline with the belief of the church (Nicea Council) which stipulated that Jesus is God and became man inorder to die for our sins. The books clearly contradicted that, and so they were rejected. No scholar says they're unreliable.

Secondly, the books I referenced never denied the crucifixion happening. Infact the Qur'an agrees that the crucifixion indeed occured, however, the man on the cross which the enemies (Jews, Romans- some of which you mentioned) crucified wasn't Jesus but rather Simon or Judas.

Thirdly, not all my references were from Bart Ehrman.

Fourthly, your references has a big problem. Cornelius Tacitus was born in 56AD which is 56years after the departure of Christ and so he's not an eyewitness. Therefore, his testimony is thrown under the bus.

Your second reference is from the books of Jews who were the enemies of Christ, the Qur'an made mention that they thought he was crucified because they were amongst the people that tried to kill him.

Here's what the Qur'an says:And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)]: Qur'an 4:157

Read the verse fully and understand why the Jews and Romans erroneously believed he was crucified whilst early Christians didn't. According to Hebrews 5:7 and Matthew 26:39 he prayed fervently that the cup of death to be moved away from him and it was according to Islam. God answered his prayer because he has completed his mission according to John 17:4 (I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do.)

Notice what he said, he made this statement before he was crucified and that means there was no need for any crucifixion because his main work is done, he then prayed to God and he was saved. If I should believe you Christians, then God forsook him. Now a problem lies for you, how can you be sure God would answer your prayer if he rejected the prayers of his son?



So what made us sinful? And can you provide to any evidence for Jesus being sinless. And if what you're saying is true, are you saying the god of the Bible is incapable of forgiveness? Why can't he forgive? Why should an innocent man pay for the crimes of others?

fortran12:

Just as you said Bart is not a Christian, so I dont expect him to defend the Bible.

You say Jesus prayed that God should take the cup away from him etc... here is the verse "

And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

at the end of the prayer he said let your will be done. The whole episode if you read was a war within Jesus as he said to his disciples when they were sleeping instead of praying.
" Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." cos even he went again to pray and said

" He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done."

and eventually Gods will was done as he prayed

" Then an angel from heaven appeared to Him and strengthened Him." - Luke 22 vs 43

Jesus prayed God's will cos he was at war within himself to either let the cup pass over him or he shld drink from it and He prayed that God's will should come to pass. God answered the prayer did not mean he did not die on the cross.

There is no proof that the person crucified was not Jesus, John was at his cross, his mother was there so you telling me they were all blind and did not see?
Am sure his disciples watched from afar and no one could see the man on the cross was an impostor?

The Quran you quoting was written hundreds of years after the Bible and you think it will have the accurate description despite the fact that the author had no contact with real Christians or even Jesus himself.

All the content of the quran are from fables and stories that existed around the time of Mohammed.
Why do you doubt the source / original document and believe a copy from a corrupted one.

You quoted me John 17 vs 4, but if you read the entire verse you will understand that he was going to die. In John 17 vs 13
“I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them."

Jesus was praying to God and he mentioned the above statement. How else does someone go to God? Isn't it via death? . This statement also proves Jesus was going to die.

When using the Bible as reference, do not cherry pick cos that is what you are doing. you mention a verse and ignore the whole story. If i want to use the Quran as reference, I will not pick a verse etc, I will acknowledge the whole story and judge.

First Jesus prayed for God's will to come to pass not his will and was God's will to let him die.

In Isaiah 53 vs 10
"But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring"

The idea was for him to bear the sins of man cos there was no way man could reach God because of sin. Jesus came as an intermediary to restore the relationship between man and God.

No other religion has this all others including islam need you to do good deeds to reach God, but all that does not take care of the problem of sin. Jesus came and did that so its up to you to accept his offer.
Sin has to be paid for its either you pay or you trust in Jesus who has paid. The wages of sin is death (hell) so if you choose to pay, where you end up is simple.

When Adam sinned in the beginning and as we are all seeds of Adam we inherited the sin debt from him. Everyone born via Adam has the sin nature in him/her (and this is every body).

Jesus came to remove this sin nature. The person to pay for the sins must be someone without sin, that means someone not born from Adam, that is how Jesus came into the scene. His father is not man (Adam) he is born of God hence he is sinless (cos God is holy [sinless])

There is no amount of good deeds that can remove the sin nature,

the way God provided it to be removed was via his accepting his son's payment for sin (its that easy, but its foolishness to some people ).
God is just , You ask why cant God just forgive sin. Its like asking a judge to just forgive a mass murderer cos he is the judge, but that is not just , that is not justice.

Every one is heading straight to hell cos of the sin nature inherited from Adam, God sent Jesus to provide a way of escape, its not God sending pple to hell, its rejecting Jesus and choosing to pay for your sin that leads to hell.

Demmzy15:


Like I don't get your criticism concerning Bart? He wrote many books while he was a Christian. One of his best books "Misquoting Jesus" which was a bestseller was written while he was a Christian. He claimed what he discovered when he wrote the book made him have a stronger faith in Christianity, so I don't why you attack the messenger and leave the message in totality.



Cup of what?



My friend, honestly I'm enjoying this discussion. The whole point of Jesus going to Gethsemane to pray was because he wanted the cup of death to moved away from him indicating he doesn't want to die.

Hebrews 5:7 states: During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

He prayed to be saved from death and was that prayer answered according to Christianity? No!!! According to Islam, he was indeed saved.



Which means God rejected his prayer. So if Jesus despite his status with God had his prayer rejected after praying fervently and even sweating blood (showing he was very scared, didn't want to die) and yet his prayer got rejected to the extent Jesus had to cry as why his father forsook him, then you as a Christian has no hope.



Even after the Angel strengthened him, he still continued praying. He just didn't want to die, let's look at verse 44: And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.



This is actually a paradox, as I've shown above. He prayed fervently against death, to the point of sweating blood. His Father didn't answer his prayer because he was still crucified and killed according to the Bible despite that. His sole purpose of going to pray before he was arrested was because he didn't want to die and at the end of the day, he was arrested and killed. Before he died, he cried why did his father forsake him. I actually don't get why you're trying to twist this point.



I already dealt with this issue, please go back to my former replies.

What Jesus prayed was for God's will. And that is what happened. If you follow the words he said truthfully word by word you will see this. Be honest and read the words he said.

Oh really? How about the other early books I quoted which you hypocritically threw away which claims Jesus wasn't crucified but Judas or Simon? And you've not explained to me as to why some early Christians like the Ebionites believed Jesus wasn't crucified.



Fables going round ? For your information, no Christian at the time of Prophet Muhammad believed Jesus was saved, so your premise falls face down. And if we're to talk about a corrupted document, then it's the Bible. Can you explain to me why Judas had contradictory deaths in the Bible?



Well he can go to God without dieing, the Qur'an mentioned he was lifted up with his body and soul to the heavens.



No it doesn't, it's not only through death you meet God. Elijah (2 Kings 2:11) and Enoch (Genesis 5:23-24) didn't die and they're probably in heaven just like Jesus that didn't die.



This advice should be for you, if you knew about Elijah and Enoch, then you should've known they didn't die yet walked with God. You can meet God without dieing because Jesus, Enoch and Elijah did.



Which means his prayer was rejected and he was condemned to death still after begging to be saved, thank you continue!



So your god was pleased to crush an innocent man (who didn't want to die)? How's this Just? Why can't your God just forgive? How hard could it be?



So from this, your god is incapable of forgiveness? Because in Islam, you sin and ask for forgiveness you're forgiven. Infact God is so Merciful in Islam that, a sin you commit and die in such, He could still forgive you.



Firstly, in Islam we don't ever want to have such a concept. Ours is perfect, if you commit a sin and ask for forgiveness, you're forgiven.

Secondly, @underlined you're wrong, it's better you don't make assumptions on what you have no knowledge about.

Thirdly, if Jesus agreed to pay the wages, why was he reluctant and had to pray and sweat blood just not to die? Why can't God just forgive you? It's very simple. In the old testament, David sinned and he was forgiven, no death or whatever you're saying. If David could be forgiven without human sacrifice, why can't others be as well?



This is a lie, no sin transmitted, this is one of the lies of the church.

The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them. Ezekiel 18:20

This verse proves you lied.



Naaah!!! Jesus of course had no Father but he had a mother who was a descendant of Adam. So the sin must've passed down to him through his mother, so how can he be sinless? Give me another scope abeg!



Not true, simply ask for forgiveness and repent sincerely and you'll be forgiven. God is Merciful and doesn't require human sacrifice.



So you've just accepted your god is incapable of forgiveness. You said he's just, how is it just to punish an innocent man for the sin of others? And as for your judge analogy, this is why we have the code of Shariah in Islam. That's a topic for another time



Go didn't send Jesus to die, he sent him to bring the people back to path of God. A path of salvation, if you commit sins, you ask for forgiveness and you'll be forgiven. You can be punished earthly but God would forgive you and save you from hell, that's how it works. Jesus clearly stated he had already finished his mission (John 17:4) and he prayed against death, if dieing was his main mission he wouldn't have said he has finished the mission God sent him in John.

fortran12:

What Jesus prayed was for God's will. And that is what happened. If you follow the words he said truthfully word by word you will see this. Be honest and read the words he said

Mohammed did not meet real Christians. How can you be a Christian if you don't believe Jesus died. That is the core of Christianity. So even Mohammed's wife knew about Jesus but she was no Christian.

Like I said before you cherry pick and choose what suits your argument. In the bible Jesus says he will die. He says

No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." - John 10 vs 18

You quote From the same book and ignore wat does not suit your narrative. That is being dishonest it's called cherry picking.

I can give entire stories from the Qur'an that contradict no cherry picking. But that is not our discussion.

In the old testament no one was born again because there was no savior. Sins were covered by the yearly sacrifices that were performed so in David's case, it was covered in this..

In the new testament it's different. The issue of sin was taken care of in the new Testament. There was no need for yearly sacrifice. It all depends on what you view sin as. The bible describes it as a nature that can only be changed by being born again.

Talking of forgiveness why did Mohamed not exhibit this during his time. That is a discussion for another time.

If you know what being just means you would not ask by can't God just forgive sin. Sin is a going. Against God's law. Because God is just he has to punish sin. If he does otherwise he is unjust. Just as a judge who condemns criminals, you may say he is a wicked person etc. But he is the judge and he is discharging justice. It may seem unfair to you but the world works on action and consequence. Nothing is free you are paying for it in a way even the air u breathe.

All of man's sin had to be paid for in the past it was covered via sacrifices( That was the atonement system setup by God).

Whn you quote the bible for reference do not cherry pick you quote John 17 vs 4 but ignore the rest of the book, is that being honest? Read the whole book to understand without bias and you will understand.
Forgiveness without payment is like buying with a credit card. You will have the item but it's will still need to be paid for.

A reality of life is that nothing is free including forgiveness

You say God is merciful and does not require sacrifice? What was Abraham doing with the ram?

( mind you the bible your Quran copied from mentioned that God sacrificed an animal and used to cover Adam and Eve after they left the garden.)

PS: no more cheery picking quote your references in tje light of the whole book you using.

The plan was Jesus was to die from the beginning, there are several verses to prove this, he references this in all his talks with the disciples.If you notice his prayer he says let your will be done. All from the old testament, there was going to a be a sacrifice for the sins,even from the old testament, in Numbers 24, Balaam prophesied about Jesus " “I see him, but not now;
I behold him, but not near.
A star will come out of Jacob;
a scepter will rise out of Israel"
All this is about Jesus
Isaiah 53 also includes prophecies about Jesus, his birth and death so for you to say Jesus did not die means God was lying.
Jesus prayed the cup pass over him but eventually said let your will be done. You intentionally focus on the middle of the prayer and not what he said at the end. Its the end that matters cos its the END. He prayed God's will and it happened so all what he said in the middle are of no significance since its what he said last that matters.
There are times you make statements but you are judged by your final words not things you said in the middle cos you may change your mind.So in Jesus prayer, its what he said in the end that happened. And i have shown its God's will for him to die. Even John the baptist when he saw Jesus what did he say? "behold the lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world" - John 1 vs 29. How did lambs in the old testament take sins away? by being sacrificed. So saying Jesus did not die means John the baptist was lying too. I have given you 2 evidences of people who are not apostles who mentioned about him dying, John the baptist and Isaiah.

The core of Christianity is the death of Jesus, you cannot be a christian if u dont believe Jesus died, its like i claim in am muslim but I dont believe mohammed existed, its impossible logically. So every person who claims to be a christian must believe in Jesus birth, death and resurrection. This was the reason why the name christian existed in the time of the apostles cos the were claiming Jesus was resurrected and were preaching to people to believe in him and their behavior was like Christ.
Mohammed's wife was not a Christian and I will prove , She was a Nazarene, she was from the Nazarene community in mecca and her cousin Warqah (Warqah) ibn Nawfal ibn Asad ibn Abd-al-Uzza ibn Qusayy Al-Qurashi was the Nazarene priest. -- The Men Who Invented Religion By Jeffrey M Pike.
Nazarenes are different from Christians, so Mohammed did not meet Christians

You say no one witnessed the death of Jesus when I have historical books that claimed he died Josephus mentioned that Jesus died, Tacitus mentioned about him too, Mara bar Sarapion made references to his death . John was at his cross so where do u see no one witnessed it, his mum was there, the centurion was there. With all these sources you still claim he did not die just cos a book 600 years after said so, so all the books earlier are false, but its the book that came 600 years that contains the truth, the book that contains use of medicines like camel urine that is now accurate, books that says women produce sperm from the neck bones or the person that cums first during sex, the baby will resemble, or the one that the semen stays in the woman for 40 days.

He said I lay down my life and can pick it up. what does that mean? the verse even if it means "protect" as you claim what of the latter part : pick it up ? pls explain.

Note this is the verse: “No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again” (John 10:18)

You quran claims Jesus is the son of God- it claims Allah breathe into Mary's vagina --- Sura 21:91 and 66:12 so .... do you believe his father is God?

When using a verse note who the words are directed to , this was to the Israelites, so they know about repentance and all what it entails. It includes offering and sacrifices, so God does not just forgive them like that, even if they repent, they know how to do it. Cos the bible says David repented do u know how he did the repentance? It was via the template God gave them, which includes sacrifice.

No one can observe the law, and only Jesus did, so you trust in him for salvation, the law was not created to be fulfiled it was made to show how in capable you are and see yourself in need of a savior (Jesus). The law makes the nature of sin come alive in you. So sin is not about the act but the nature. if its about the act you just need to control yourself and stop the bad deeds but cos its something to do with your nature you need external help that is why Jesus came.
Jesus does not have to say everything physically , the Bible is there that contains his words too, so you trying to be clever saying Jesus did not say etc, the ones he did say you ignore willingly.

lol, what of when he wrote letters to kings that they should convert or die? who made him a judge on human life ? he was a wicked man, that one is a fact. he did wicked things you cant deny that fact.he killed people, he raped people, all these are facts, he was possessed of the devil (satanic verses), all these are facts from your muslim books (trusted scholars).

i explained sin is about a nature not just the deed. even in the old testament they performed sacrifices so I dont know where you have the notion that God just forgives. remember he is just, if you lie to me and you pray for forgiveness what of me that you lied to, what will happen to me, where is the justice in that case? so you notion of God just forgives is only one sided, from the perpetrator, what of who the sin is against?

The burnt offering was for sins in general (Lev 1), the sin offering (Lev 4 ) is for minute etc sins. Sin is sin, no big no small, Jesus came to die for all sins. If you understand that its your nature that is at fault then you will understand there is a need to change your sin nature. good deeds don't cover your sins, sin has to be judged, in the old testament this was done regularly, God made a solution via his son.

Trinity is a word, that means three, you as a person are triinty, you have a body, mind and spirit so why is the concept hard to grasp when you exhibit it yourself. The difference is all your trinity cant act independently like God can. when the bible said God created man in his image, this is what he meant (not we all look like God).

"The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise." But they did not understand what he meant and were afraid to ask him about it-- Mark 9 vs 30- 32. Hope that proves what he meant.

The Quran copies lots of text, what is its business with Abraham? he never lived close to mecca or medina but the quran mentioned he built the kabbah. so who is lying? The quran keeps mentioning biblical characters that have no link to mohammed and you claim it did not copy? what of the 7 slippers story? we all know who wrote that piece and it found its way into the quran how did this happen?

Cherry picking is using a verse and ignoring the rest of the story. The whole book of John am sure Jesus spks of his death but you pick verses that "prove" he did not die.

fortran12:
The plan was Jesus was to die from the beginning, there are several verses to prove this, he references this in all his talks with the disciples.If you notice his prayer he says let your will be done.

Jesus prayed the cup pass over him but eventually said let your will be done. You intentionally focus on the middle of the prayer and not what he said at the end. Its the end that matters cos its the END. He prayed God's will and it happened so all what he said in the middle are of no significance since its what he said last that matters.

There are times you make statements but you are judged by your final words not things you said in the middle cos you may change your mind.So in Jesus prayer, its what he said in the end that happened.

And i have shown its God's will for him to die.

Even John the baptist when he saw Jesus what did he say? "behold the lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world" - John 1 vs 29.

So saying Jesus did not die means John the baptist was lying too. I have given you 2 evidences of people who are not apostles who mentioned about him dying, John the baptist and Isaiah

The core of Christianity is the death of Jesus, you cannot be a christian if u dont believe Jesus died

its like i claim in am muslim but I dont believe mohammed existed, its impossible logically.

So every person who claims to be a christian must believe in Jesus birth, death and resurrection.

Mohammed's wife was not a Christian and I will prove , She was a Nazarene, she was from the Nazarene community in mecca and her cousin Warqah (Warqah) ibn Nawfal ibn Asad ibn Abd-al-Uzza ibn Qusayy Al-Qurashi was the Nazarene priest. -- The Men Who Invented Religion By Jeffrey M Pike.
Nazarenes are different from Christians, so Mohammed did not meet Christians

You say no one witnessed the death of Jesus when I have historical books that claimed he died Josephus mentioned that Jesus died, Tacitus mentioned about him too, Mara bar Sarapion made references to his death .

With all these sources you still claim he did not die just cos a book 600 years after said so, so all the books earlier are false, but its the book that came 600 years that contains the truth

the book that contains use of medicines like camel urine that is now accurate, books that says women produce sperm from the neck bones or the person that cums first during sex, the baby will resemble, or the one that the semen stays in the woman for 40 days.

He said I lay down my life and can pick it up. what does that mean? the verse even if it means "protect" as you claim what of the latter part : pick it up ? pls explain.

Note this is the verse: “No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again” (John 10:18)

You quran claims Jesus is the son of God- it claims Allah breathe into Mary's vagina --- Sura 21:91 and 66:12 so .... do you believe his father is God?

When using a verse note who the words are directed to , this was to the Israelites, so they know about repentance and all what it entails. It includes offering and sacrifices, so God does not just forgive them like that, even if they repent, they know how to do it. Cos the bible says David repented do u know how he did the repentance? It was via the template God gave them, which includes sacrifice.

No one can observe the law, and only Jesus did, so you trust in him for salvation,

the law was not created to be fulfiled it was made to show how in capable you are and see yourself in need of a savior (Jesus). The law makes the nature of sin come alive in you. So sin is not about the act but the nature. if its about the act you just need to control yourself and stop the bad deeds but cos its something to do with your nature you need external help that is why Jesus came.

Jesus does not have to say everything physically , the Bible is there that contains his words too, so you trying to be clever saying Jesus did not say etc, the ones he did say you ignore willingly.

lol, what of when he wrote letters to kings that they should convert or die? who made him a judge on human life ? he was a wicked man, that one is a fact. he did wicked things you cant deny that fact.

he killed people,

he raped people,

all these are facts, he was possessed of the devil (satanic verses),

all these are facts from your muslim books (trusted scholars).

i explained sin is about a nature not just the deed. even in the old testament they performed sacrifices so I dont know where you have the notion that God just forgives. remember he is just, if you lie to me and you pray for forgiveness what of me that you lied to, what will happen to me, where is the justice in that case? so you notion of God just forgives is only one sided, from the perpetrator, what of who the sin is against?

The burnt offering was for sins in general (Lev 1), the sin offering (Lev 4 ) is for minute etc sins. Sin is sin, no big no small, Jesus came to die for all sins. If you understand that its your nature that is at fault then you will understand there is a need to change your sin nature. good deeds don't cover your sins, sin has to be judged, in the old testament this was done regularly, God made a solution via his son.

Demmzy15:
fortran12



Of course there are consequences for whatever you do, I've given proof that sacrifice is meant for small sins (Leviticus 4/5), go and read it fully. David sinned and he was forgiven, I doubt he made any sacrifice, if he did please show me. The story of David shows that God can grant his Mercy on you and forgive you without any payment.

God similarly forgave the people of Nineveh after Prophet Jonah was sent to them, no sacrifice just repentance and they were forgiven (Jonah 3)

I have showed you how Isrealites repent in the Bible, it involves several things so to think David a king in Israel will do otherwise is not logical.

What are you typing? How does this make any sense to you? God mentioned that it's not difficult to observe the law, and the reason why the law was revealed is because it has to be observed:

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. Deu 30:11

If the law was that simple why did they need sacrifices? Dont think the law were just the 10 commandments. The Bibles says the strenghtr of sin is the law 1 Corinthians 15:56 . The law was not made to be kept, it was made to show humble you and see how great God's standard is and for you to seek a saviour. (Jesus)

So I don't get your point, if Jesus observed the law why didn't he stone the woman accused of adultery? He flouted the law there!

Besides the Bible mentioned that the parents of John the Baptist, Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous.

Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commands and decrees blamelessly. Luke 1:6
So where did you get the notion that no one can observe the law?

They were righteous as they needed sacrifices to keep them that way, Jesus was the only one righteous without the need for sacrifice as he was the sacrifice himself. The Bible says if you offend in one part of the law you are guilty of everything - James 2 vs 10. To keep the law was impossible that is why sacrifices were neccessary

If you quote and 'believe' the bible like so, why do you keep cherry picking?

This makes no sense and contradictory to what Jesus has always maintained.

Jesus said: Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven Matthew 5:17-19

Stop quoting out of point
" Jesus’ purpose was to establish the Word, to embody it, and to fully accomplish all that was written. “Christ is the culmination of the law” (Romans 10:4). The predictions of the Prophets concerning the Messiah would be realized in Jesus; the holy standard of the Law would be perfectly upheld by Christ, the strict requirements personally obeyed, and the ceremonial observances finally and fully satisfied."
That is the meaning of what Jesus said above.

Jesus didn't just say anything, he said opposite of what you claim. No wonder you worship him as God when he never told you to do so.



Convert or die? I don die o All the allegations and hearsays you've been pouring out against Islam, you're yet to even provide a proof. Aren't you ashamed of yourself? So you'll now resort to lie to promote your false pagan beliefs? Wowww!!!

Cos your prophet is being exposed abi, you cannot deny my claims you only try to deflect them, but you must answer, Mohammed the perfect man, one with the sexual power of 40 men - Ibn Sa'd, Kitab Tabaqat Al-Kubra, Vol., p. 139 or the mohammed who likes them young - a man over 50 eyeing a 6 year old girl and having carnal knowledge of her when she was 9 - Sahih Muslim 8:3310 - this was spoken by Aisha herself and the refernce is Sahih.

All these are from your muslim books, tell me I am lying. You cherry pick from the Bible the Jesus did not die etc despite him saying it severally, but u ignore those parts and quote what suits your narrative. I told you I can quote verses from your books and just to show you how easy it is to take apart your prophet.

Jesus commanded the killing of innocent men women and children:

Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. Numbers 31:17

Bros we are talking about mohammed here, leave Jesus out of this one defend you prophet!!!

Jesus commanded rape: but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. Numbers 31:18

Narrated Abdul Aziz:
Anas said, "When Allah's Apostle invaded Khaibar, we offered the Fajr prayer there (early in the morning) when it was still dark. The Prophet rode and Abu Talha rode too and I was riding behind Abu Talha. The Prophet passed through the lane of Khaibar quickly and my knee was touching the thigh of the Prophet. He uncovered his thigh and I saw the whiteness of the thigh of the Prophet. When he entered the town, he said, ‘Allahu Akbar! Khaibar is ruined. Whenever we approach near a (hostile) nation (to fight) then evil will be the morning of those who have been warned.’ He repeated this thrice. The people came out for their jobs and some of them said, ‘Muhammad (has come).’ (Some of our companions added, ‘With his army.’) We conquered Khaibar, took the captives, and the booty was collected. Dihya came and said, ‘O Allah's Prophet! Give me a slave girl from the captives.’ The Prophet said, ‘Go and take any slave girl.’ He took Safiya bint Huyai. A man came to the Prophet and said, ‘O Allah's Apostle! You gave Safiya bint Huyai to Dihya and she is the chief mistress of the tribes of Quraiza and An-Nadir and she befits none but you.’ So the Prophet said, ‘Bring him along with her.’ So Dihya came with her and when the Prophet saw her, he said to Dihya, ‘Take any slave girl other than her from the captives.’" Anas added: "The Prophet then manumitted her and married her."

Thabit asked Anas, "O Abu Hamza! What did the Prophet pay her (as Mahr)?" He said, "Her self was her Mahr for he manumitted her and then married her." Anas added, "While on the way, Um Sulaim dressed her for marriage (ceremony) and at night she sent her as a bride to the Prophet. So the Prophet was a bridegroom and he said, ‘Whoever has anything (food) should bring it.’ He spread out a leather sheet (for the food) and some brought dates and others cooking butter. (I think he (Anas) mentioned As-Sawaq). So they prepared a dish of Hais (a kind of meal). And that was Walima (the marriage banquet) of Allah's Apostle." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 8, Number 367).

pls defend your prophet here, he raped a 17 year old girl after killing her family and relatives. Leave Jesus out of this, defend your prophet. I have included refernce, and its Sahih not Ḍaʻīf. So pls do the needful. I am waiting.

He got his share of virgins to rape: and 16,000 virgin girls, of whom 32 were the LORD’s share. Numbers 31:40

Stop deflecting all what I raised defend your prophet !

Read Matthew 4:1-11 about how your God Jesus was carried around by the devil, yet he's a god but was carried around the world by the devil

Jesus was tempted but he did not fall, and am sorry I read the chapter I did not see where the devil won and of the 3 temptations, but your prophet was bewitched and also possessed of the devil that he asked ppl to worship allah and his 3 daughters, that is the moon god "al-Ilah" (Allah) had three daughters named al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat - Surah 53:19-20. I have included another reference so come and defend your prophet, the perfect man who was once accused of stealing a lady's underwear after a raid or who wanted to attack the Romans so he could get blonde girls - Tafsir al-Tabari, Q. 9:49; or the cross dresser Mohammed who used to receive revelations in his wives' clothing?

Abi from those Anti-Islamic websites you read .

I got all these from the quran and your hadiths, i have read and still do read.

Is it that you don't read or you're just plainly dumb? I said sacrifice is for small unintentional sins and I gave you evidences for it, read Leviticus 4/5. God forgave David, he forgave the People of Nineveh, and no one offered any animal or human sacrifices. What more do you want? You say God is Just, what's just about killing a man for the crimes of others? How's that Just?

Sacrifices were mandatory for repentance. The sin offering is a sacrifice that dealt with the general sins of everyone—the priests, the leadership, the entire congregation and the person sacrificing. There was no forgiveness without sacrifice in the old testament, once sin is involved, sacrifice has to follow repentance. the bible says without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin - Heb. 9 vs 22 , so David offered sacrifices to be forgiven

Jesus claimed the law is still on and it's not abolished, God in the past has forgiven people without sacrifice. Jesus taught us how to pray and ask for forgiveness, you're yet to show me Jesus is sinless for him to be able to die for our sins.

The Bible says “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes - Rom 10 vs 4, so i dont know where Jesus says the law is still on

I'll reply your Trinity post tomorrow, I'm tired already