https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5fOsgrAJiU

The venus flytrap shown above is a carnivorous plant which has a trapping system for catching its prey—chiefly insects and spiders— and a digestive system for digesting the prey ( using some cocktail enzymes) and then absorbing the resulting nutrients.


The trapping system is formed by the terminal portion of each of the plant's leaves, which is triggered by tiny "sensitive hairs" on their inner surfaces.


When an insect or spider crawling along the leaves touches the sensitive hair, the trap prepares to close, snapping shut only if another contact occurs within approximately twenty seconds of the first strike.

The requirement of surplus triggering in this mechanism serves as a safeguard against wasting energy by trapping objects with no nutritional value, and it is only when the leaves are touched multiple times that digestive enzymes are activated. This is to ensure the trap has caught a live insect worthy of consumption.


Once the trap is tightly closed, digestive enzymes dissolve the insect, and the plant absorbs the nutrient-rich "soup". Seven to ten days later, the trap opens, ready for another meal.

Like other plants, venus flytraps photosynthesize: they get energy from the sun. So why do they trap and digest insects?
The answer lies in the soil. Most plants absorb nutrients from the soil where they grow, and therefore they can't survive in a wet, acidic soil which lacks adequate nutrients. But Venus fly traps are different from most plants. They are able to live in such a poor soil by obtaining most of the nutrients they need from the insects and other small animals they capture.

But the most important question is this ; how did trapping system and the digestive system of this plant came to exist ?

Did they come to exist by necessity ?
Or did they come to exist by chance ?
Or did they come to exist by design ?


It is not by necessity because not all the soil on the earth lack adequate nutrients. Hence, if the Venus fly traps cannot thrive in a soil with low nutritive value, it can still survive in other soil with high nutritive value. Therefore, there is nothing necessitating the growing of venus fly traps in a poor soil. This implies that trapping system and the digestive system of this plant did not come to exist by necessity.



Did two systems come to exist by chance ? The trapping system that catches the insects would be useless if there is no digestive system to dissolve and absorb the nutrients from the body of the insects. Similarly, the digestive system that dissolves the body of the insects would be useless if there is no trapping system for catching the insects. This shows that both systems are complementary to each other. And simultaneous existence of two complementary systems is beyond the work of chance.


If it is neither by necessity nor by chance, then the trapping system and digestive system of a venus fly trap must exist by design.

But design required deliberate planning. And deliberate planning exist only in a mind . This cosmic mind is what many people portrayed as God.

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Atheists do say this "if the carnivorous flower was designed by a mind and not by chance, can the mind complex enough to design such a flower exist my chance or created by another higher mind?"

Abdulgaffar22:

This cosmic mind is what many people portrayed as God.

Why did "This cosmic mind is what many people portrayed as God" create the venus flytrap?

Ketamine9000mg:
Atheists do say this "if the carnivorous flower was designed by a mind and not by chance, can the mind complex enough to design such a flower exist my chance or created by another higher mind?"

This very cosmic mind exist neither by chance nor design (i:e created by another higher mind) but by necessity.

See the reason below;

SOMETHING must be ETERNAL (i:e always exist and infinitely old)

Why ? See the logical argument explained below;

(a) For a "change" to occur, a "cause" is required.
(b) Popping of SOMETHING into existence from absolutely NOTHING is a "change" which therefore require a "cause".
(c) But there is no any "cause" present in an absolutely nothing.
(d) Therefore, there is no any cause to trigger a change from absolutely nothing to something.
(e) Hence, popping of something into existence from absolutely nothing is impossible.

Therefore, if there is absolutely 'NOTHING' in the long past, then there is no way we can have 'SOMETHING' at this present time because something can NEVER come out from absolutely nothing.

This simply shows that something must be eternal i:e always exist and infinitely old.

So this very something did not begin to exist by chance nor by creation.

Abdulgaffar22:



Therefore, if there is absolutely 'NOTHING' in the long past, then there is no way we can have 'SOMETHING' at this present time because something can NEVER come out from absolutely nothing.

Who said there was "absolutely 'NOTHING' in the long past"?

I keep wondering Abdul,why your hellbent on convincing the atheists.It only leaves you jumping on the slightest signs of supposed proof and leaves you dangerously susceptible to confirmation bias.Try to learn without filtering for evidence to "convince the atheists".

EmperorHarry:
I keep wondering Abdul,why your hellbent on convincing the atheists.It only leaves you jumping on the slightest signs of supposed proof and leaves you dangerously susceptible to confirmation bias.Try to learn without filtering for evidence to "convince the atheists".

It's actually a good thing that he does as he is practicing how to reason, but he can't hear himself, which makes him unreasonable, but still, let me try.

Abdulgaffar22:
(a) For a "change" to occur, a "cause" is required.

Time always passes. It is a change and can also be a cause of change.

Abdulgaffar22:
(b) Popping of SOMETHING into existence from absolutely NOTHING is a "change" which therefore require a "cause".

Portraying others in this false caricature is dishonest.

No one says "Popping of SOMETHING into existence from absolutely NOTHING". But if you think carefully enough, it is the claim of some theists, unless your position is the Word is something.

Abdulgaffar22:

(c) But there is no any "cause" present in an absolutely nothing.

There is nothing called "absolute nothing"!

budaatum:

Who said there was "absolutely 'NOTHING' in the long past"?

Your friend, Ketamine9000mg

"Atheists do say this "if the carnivorous flower was designed by a mind and not by chance, can the mind complex enough to design such a flower exist by chance or created by another higher mind?"

Abdulgaffar22:


Your friend, Ketamine9000mg

"Atheists do say this "if the carnivorous flower was designed by a mind and not by chance, can the mind complex enough to design such a flower exist by chance or created by another higher mind?"

Quote him here so I can read it in context.

EmperorHarry:
I keep wondering Abdul,why your hellbent on convincing the atheists.It only leaves you jumping on the slightest signs of supposed proof and leaves you dangerously susceptible to confirmation bias.Try to learn without filtering for evidence to "convince the atheists".

But the most important question is this ; how did trapping system and the digestive system of this plant came to exist ?

Did they come to exist by necessity ?
Or did they come to exist by chance ?
Or did they come to exist by design ?

Abdulgaffar22:


But the most important question is this ; how did trapping system and the digestive system of this plant came to exist ?

Did they come to exist by necessity ?
Or did they come to exist by chance ?
Or did they come to exist by design ?

By necessity to exist, Abdul. Or it would have died.

budaatum:

By necessity to exist, Abdul. Or it would have died.

I believe the answer he was looking for would be 3.Abdul,I go with 3. Now make your case for design.Why would a designer be so interested in the adaptive features of this one carnivorous plant? What's so special about this one?

Abdulgaffar22:

The venus flytrap shown above is a carnivorous plant which has a trapping system for catching its prey—chiefly insects and spiders— and a digestive system for digesting the prey ( using some cocktail enzymes) and then absorbing the resulting nutrients.


The trapping system is formed by the terminal portion of each of the plant's leaves, which is triggered by tiny "sensitive hairs" on their inner surfaces.


When an insect or spider crawling along the leaves touches the sensitive hair, the trap prepares to close, snapping shut only if another contact occurs within approximately twenty seconds of the first strike.

The requirement of surplus triggering in this mechanism serves as a safeguard against wasting energy by trapping objects with no nutritional value, and it is only when the leaves are touched multiple times that digestive enzymes are activated. This is to ensure the trap has caught a live insect worthy of consumption.


Once the trap is tightly closed, digestive enzymes dissolve the insect, and the plant absorbs the nutrient-rich "soup". Seven to ten days later, the trap opens, ready for another meal.

Like other plants, venus flytraps photosynthesize: they get energy from the sun. So why do they trap and digest insects?
The answer lies in the soil. Most plants absorb nutrients from the soil where they grow, and therefore they can't survive in a wet, acidic soil which lacks adequate nutrients. But Venus fly traps are different from most plants. They are able to live in such a poor soil by obtaining most of the nutrients they need from the insects and other small animals they capture.

The bolded text makes the carnivorous nature of the venus fly trap a necessity something you will try to confuse yourself over in the proceeding points.

You have shown here that due to its carnivorous nature, it can survive in poor soils that many plants won't necessarily thrive on, this shows that it's feature is a necessary survival mechanism.

Evolutionary consideration would mean that its ancestors didn't grow on poor soils, change in atmospheric or soil condition necessitates surivial of plants that are quite by chance adapted to survive (not intentionally) and extinction of those that can't.

Natural selection.

But the most important question is this ; how did trapping system and the digestive system of this plant came to exist ?

Did they come to exist by necessity ?
Or did they come to exist by chance ?
Or did they come to exist by design ?


It is not by necessity because not all the soil on the earth lack adequate nutrients. Hence, if the Venus fly traps cannot thrive in a soil with low nutritive value, it can still survive in other soil with high nutritive value. Therefore, there is nothing necessitating the growing of venus fly traps in a poor soil. This implies that trapping system and the digestive system of this plant did not come to exist by necessity.

When you purposely confused yourself, make ridiculously flawed basis for your arguments, you tend to continue with that chain.

First quoted comment above shows it is a necessity. You argue that not every soil on earth lack adequate nutrient to question why the venus fly trap doesn't just grow else where.

That obviously flawed attempt at oversimplifying global ecology is annoying.

Few reasons why venus fly trap don't just migrate to another suitable soil.

1. Plants are not locomotive
2. There are large extent of water and desert between lands and continents
3. Change in ecosystems are significant contributors to natural selection
4. Venus fly trap are at least not as intelligent as an animal
5. Why does it need to migrate to a richer soil when it is already evolved to survive without one?

Did two systems come to exist by chance ? The trapping system that catches the insects would be useless if there is no digestive system to dissolve and absorb the nutrients from the body of the insects. Similarly, the digestive system that dissolves the body of the insects would be useless if there is no trapping system for catching the insects. This shows that both systems are complementary to each other. And simultaneous existence of two complementary systems is beyond the work of chance.

Why?

If it is neither by necessity nor by chance, then the trapping system and digestive system of a venus fly trap must exist by design.

And thus all the willful flawed rigmarole just to arrive at this conclusion.

But design required deliberate planning. And deliberate planning exist only in a mind . This cosmic mind is what many people portrayed as God

Excellently flawed argument that require gross misrepresentation of the evolutuonary doctrine or oversimplification of global ecosystem.

Kudos

EmperorHarry:
I believe the answer he was looking for would be 3. Abdulgaffar22, I go with 3. Now make your case for design. Why would a designer be so interested in the adaptive features of this one carnivorous plant? What's so special about this one?

I go with #1 and #3. The case being based on God's omniscience, as in ability to know all things in advance and from that knowing that the world will fall from grace, hence necessity and built in adaptability will need to kick in, as in when required to do so.

So your god decides that its a good idea to make plants that eat insects and other animals. Wow your god is a crazy designer.

Carnivorous plants that eat flying insects..............................................................IS SIMPLY EVIDENCE OF CARNIVOROUS PLANTS THAT EAT FLYING INSECTS!!!

IT IS NOT EVIDENCE OF A COSMIC MIND, OR A COSMIC LEG OR A COSMIC WAIST OR A COSMIC BUTTOCKS!!! NEXT QUESTION PLEASE!!!

[/b]Did they come to exist by necessity ?
Or did they come to exist by chance ?
Or did they come to exist by design ?[b]


Is it only me, or can anyone else detect the FALLACY OF THE FALSE TRILEMMA?(lewis trilemma/false trichochotomy)

> They might have come from species of plants which evolved to have its leaves close up from touch.


> The ability to trap and kill insects might have later been selected for, as a defense mechanism.


> Ecological changes that lead to lower soil nutrition selected for plants that could breakdown and assimilate the dead insect as alternative source of nutrients.

... I'm just writing this up the top of my head, but it's not too hard to imagine how it could have arisen by natural selection.

budaatum:

Why did "This cosmic mind is what many people portrayed as God" create the venus flytrap?

To show us that His ability is unlimited

ctleurocollege:



To show us that His ability is unlimited

God must adore you, O you so important creation of God whom [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+3%3A16&version=NIV]God shows[/url] "His ability is unlimited". And some agree with you. See how much work has been done to understand that "His ability is unlimited".

One should perhaps go and do likewise and learn the "unlimited ability of God". After all, one can't know what God is showing one if one shuts one's eyes to Logos.

ctleurocollege:



To show us that His ability is unlimited

But it is limited in being able to create a world without evil.